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Rank these quarterbacks all-time (1 Viewer)

I love people who try to discount Elway's Super Bowl wins because of Terrell Davis. Would you like me to name RBs who have had similar seasons and see if they won the Super Bowl? Do all QBs who have a RB like that and not win it become choke artists? That's a TON of guys and many big names (including a couple on this list (Favre and Manning)).

 
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMO
Joe Montana's high for TD passes in a season is 31 and he only threw 20 or more six times in his career. Montana had ZERO 4000 yard seasons. I guess he is overrated, too, right? And what records did Terrell Davis set? 2000 yards had been done before. He didn't set any touchdown record or yards per carry record or anything like that. Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson and Jamal Lewis have all also ran for 2000 yards. Why didn't they win Super Bowls those seasons since they were dominating like Davis did?

I think many forget that passing numbers by QB's are generally higher now than they were 15-20 years ago. I mean, Steve freaking Beuerlein once threw 36 TD passes in a season. I think that says it all.

 
As far as Elway's numbers being average compared to the other QB's here.

Career Rankings:  Pass Att - 3, Completions - 3, Yards - 3, TD's - 4, Wins - 1, Rushing yards - 6
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMOElways numbers by season

Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |

| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |

| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |

| 1986 den | 16 | 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 | 52 257 1 |

| 1987 den | 12 | 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 | 66 304 4 |

| 1988 den | 15 | 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 | 54 234 1 |

| 1989 den | 15 | 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 | 48 244 3 |

| 1990 den | 16 | 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 | 50 258 3 |

| 1991 den | 16 | 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 | 55 255 6 |

| 1992 den | 12 | 174 316 55.1 2242 7.1 10 17 | 34 94 2 |

| 1993 den | 16 | 348 551 63.2 4030 7.3 25 10 | 44 153 0 |

| 1994 den | 14 | 307 494 62.1 3490 7.1 16 10 | 58 235 4 |

| 1995 den | 16 | 316 542 58.3 3970 7.3 26 14 | 41 176 1 |

| 1996 den | 15 | 287 466 61.6 3328 7.1 26 14 | 50 249 4 |

| 1997 den | 16 | 280 502 55.8 3635 7.2 27 11 | 50 218 1 |

| 1998 den | 13 | 210 356 59.0 2806 7.9 22 10 | 37 94 1
Among the league's all-time top 50Pass attempts: 3

Completions: 3

Passing yards: 3

Passing TDs: 4

:coffee:

Plain and simple, being overrated doesn't put you in these categories.
Only broke 4,000 yards once. Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times. Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons. Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio. He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons, 1993 and 1995-1998. Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best. He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.He's a compiler. His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats. Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.

 
Only broke 4,000 yards once. Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times. Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons. Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio. He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons, 1993 and 1995-1998. Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best. He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.

He's a compiler. His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats. Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
Heh...your compiler line is obviously a shot since others have made that argument about your precious Jerome Bettis, but the difference is Elway had some of his best statistical years at the end of his career, unlike Bettis. Did you know that John Elways has the most WINS of any quarterback in NFL history?

Did you also know that he played in Dan Reeves' ultra-conservative offense for almost the first ten years of his NFL career? That is why you always saw Elway making big plays at the end of games. Reeves was so conservative during games that Denver was often behind and only when he had to, did he take the reigns off and let Elway throw the ball a lot and look at the results. Imagine if Elway had played in a QB-friendly offense his entire career like Fouts, Marino, Favre and Manning had/have. Once Shanahan took over as Denver's head coach, we saw the kind of numbers Elway could put up.

 
As far as Elway's numbers being average compared to the other QB's here.

Career Rankings:  Pass Att - 3, Completions - 3, Yards - 3, TD's - 4, Wins - 1, Rushing yards - 6
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMOElways numbers by season

Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1983 den | 11 | 123 259 47.5 1663 6.4 7 14 | 28 146 1 |

| 1984 den | 15 | 214 380 56.3 2598 6.8 18 15 | 56 237 1 |

| 1985 den | 16 | 327 605 54.0 3891 6.4 22 23 | 51 253 0 |

| 1986 den | 16 | 280 504 55.6 3485 6.9 19 13 | 52 257 1 |

| 1987 den | 12 | 224 410 54.6 3198 7.8 19 12 | 66 304 4 |

| 1988 den | 15 | 274 496 55.2 3309 6.7 17 19 | 54 234 1 |

| 1989 den | 15 | 223 416 53.6 3051 7.3 18 18 | 48 244 3 |

| 1990 den | 16 | 294 502 58.6 3526 7.0 15 14 | 50 258 3 |

| 1991 den | 16 | 242 451 53.7 3253 7.2 13 12 | 55 255 6 |

| 1992 den | 12 | 174 316 55.1 2242 7.1 10 17 | 34 94 2 |

| 1993 den | 16 | 348 551 63.2 4030 7.3 25 10 | 44 153 0 |

| 1994 den | 14 | 307 494 62.1 3490 7.1 16 10 | 58 235 4 |

| 1995 den | 16 | 316 542 58.3 3970 7.3 26 14 | 41 176 1 |

| 1996 den | 15 | 287 466 61.6 3328 7.1 26 14 | 50 249 4 |

| 1997 den | 16 | 280 502 55.8 3635 7.2 27 11 | 50 218 1 |

| 1998 den | 13 | 210 356 59.0 2806 7.9 22 10 | 37 94 1
Among the league's all-time top 50Pass attempts: 3

Completions: 3

Passing yards: 3

Passing TDs: 4

:coffee:

Plain and simple, being overrated doesn't put you in these categories.
Only broke 4,000 yards once. Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times. Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons. Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio. He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons, 1993 and 1995-1998. Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best. He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.He's a compiler. His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats. Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
Thank you. Ive been getting battered here. :)
 
8) Tom Brady - Again, football is a TEAM game. You dont simply take the QB from a great dynasty and catapult him to the top of the "best players of all time". Sure, hes a good player, but better than Marino, Favre, Montana? Come on.
I don't even know where to begin with this.. of course it's a team game, and the QUARTERBACK IS PART OF THE TEAM. It is possible for a quarterback to make the team better. There are countless examples over the years of one quarterback making a team great, while another fails with the same set of players. Beyond that, Brady has had such a lack of talent around him on offense it's borderline ridiculous. His starting line-up:

WR Deion Branch - 2nd round pick in 2002

RB Corey Dillon - 2nd round pick in 1997 by the Bengals

FB Patrick Pass - 7th round pick in 2000

LT Nick Kaczur - 3rd round pick in 2005

LG Logan Mankins - 1st round pick in 2005

C Russ Hochstein - 5th round pick in 2001 by the Bucs

RG Steve Neal - Undrafted

RT Tom Ashworth - Undrafted

TE Daniel Graham - 1st round pick in 2002

WR David Givens - 7th round pick in 2002

So his blue-chip castmates are one rookie first-round pick who most people projected to go in the third, one old running back that can't stay healthy, and one underperforming first-round tight end. Staggering. And to top it all off he's got 4 guys picked in the 7th round or undrafted.

Wow, what a team they have assembled there in New England. Surely the quarterback who has led the league in passing twice, has been voted to the Pro Bowl three times, has won three Super Bowls with a team that had been 7-19 in the 26 games prior to his arrival and was thought to be furthest from a championship by most analysts, hasn't lost back-to-back games in over three years, and has never thrown more than one pick in nine playoff games was really just a cog in the wheel of an inevitable dynasty. Riiight. I'm sure Drew Bledsoe would agree.

 
1. Joe Montana2. Terry Bradshaw3. Brett Favre4. John Elway5 .Dan Marino6. Steve Young7. Peyton Manning8. Tom Brady9. Troy Aikman

 
Only broke 4,000 yards once. Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times. Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons. Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio. He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons, 1993 and 1995-1998. Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best. He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.

He's a compiler. His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats. Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
There it is again. How come Peyton Manning couldn't win when Edge had over 2000 yards and 18 TDs? How come Brett Favre couldn't win when Ahman Green had over 2000 yards and 20 TDs? Having a great running back does not automatically give you Super Bowls. Elway got the job done when he had the opportunity.
 
Only broke 4,000 yards once.  Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times.  Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons.  Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio.  He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons,  1993 and 1995-1998.  Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best.  He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.

He's a compiler.  His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats.  Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
Heh...your compiler line is obviously a shot since others have made that argument about your precious Jerome Bettis, but the difference is Elway had some of his best statistical years at the end of his career, unlike Bettis. Did you know that John Elways has the most WINS of any quarterback in NFL history?

Did you also know that he played in Dan Reeves' ultra-conservative offense for almost the first ten years of his NFL career? That is why you always saw Elway making big plays at the end of games. Reeves was so conservative during games that Denver was often behind and only when he had to, did he take the reigns off and let Elway throw the ball a lot and look at the results. Imagine if Elway had played in a QB-friendly offense his entire career like Fouts, Marino, Favre and Manning had/have. Once Shanahan took over as Denver's head coach, we saw the kind of numbers Elway could put up.
You make a fair argument, really. It holds a lot more water than those that say Elway was the real sparkplug behind their two Super Bowl wins (when anyone that watched those years KNOWS that Denver was first and foremost a running team). Still, to rebut your argument, what I never liked about Elway is that he wasnt a great pure PASSER. Look at the first ten years of his career, when his legend was being cemented in history - he frequently threw more INTs than TD's and had trouble completing above 60%. He was like Mike Vick out there, making crazy plays with his running ability and cannon-for-an-arm, only to follow up with mistakes.

 
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Rank these QB's:

Joe Montana

Steve Young

Dan Marino

John Elway

Troy Aikman

Brett Favre

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady
1) Joe Montana2) Tom Brady (yes, you read that right)

3) Dan Marino

4) John Elway

5) Brett Favre

6) Steve Young

7) Troy Aikman

8) Peyton Manning

Montana and Brady for their leadership and Super Bowl appearances/wins. Marino purely on statistics. Elway, Favre, and Young for their leadership and Super Bowl appearances/wins. Aikman's Super Bowl wins cannot be denied and why I agree he should be in a list like this. Manning should be last when in this company........for now. He hasn't even appeared in a Super Bowl yet! If/when he does, and when all is said and done, he MAY wind up in the top 4 or 5. Who knows?
If you're going to go by Super Bowls, where is Terry Bradshaw?
This thread is not asking people to rank the top QB's ever. It is asking to rank the QB's I selected.
My fault.
 
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMO
Joe Montana's high for TD passes in a season is 31 and he only threw 20 or more six times in his career. Montana had ZERO 4000 yard seasons. I guess he is overrated, too, right? And what records did Terrell Davis set? 2000 yards had been done before. He didn't set any touchdown record or yards per carry record or anything like that. Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson and Jamal Lewis have all also ran for 2000 yards. Why didn't they win Super Bowls those seasons since they were dominating like Davis did?

I think many forget that passing numbers by QB's are generally higher now than they were 15-20 years ago. I mean, Steve freaking Beuerlein once threw 36 TD passes in a season. I think that says it all.
Look, these are Elaways playoff statistics from 1997 & 1998, when the Brioncos won their two Super Bowls1997

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Surely this is not the John Elway that many are calling the greatest of all time?

1998

1998 mia W,38-3 | 14 23 182 1 0 | 3 19 0

1998 nyj W,23-10 | 13 34 173 1 0 | 3 13 0

1998 atl W,34-19 | 18 29 336 1 1 | 3 2 1

While better, he hardly carried his team to the Super Bowl. In contrast, Terrell Davis 199 and 167 yards in the first two playoff games in 1998, and only 102 in the Super Bowl when it seemed certain that the coaching staff wanted Elway to win the MVP.

Point is, Elway was a great QB, but he gets WAY too much credit.

 
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMO
Joe Montana's high for TD passes in a season is 31 and he only threw 20 or more six times in his career. Montana had ZERO 4000 yard seasons. I guess he is overrated, too, right? And what records did Terrell Davis set? 2000 yards had been done before. He didn't set any touchdown record or yards per carry record or anything like that. Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson and Jamal Lewis have all also ran for 2000 yards. Why didn't they win Super Bowls those seasons since they were dominating like Davis did?

I think many forget that passing numbers by QB's are generally higher now than they were 15-20 years ago. I mean, Steve freaking Beuerlein once threw 36 TD passes in a season. I think that says it all.
Look, these are Elaways playoff statistics from 1997 & 1998, when the Brioncos won their two Super Bowls1997

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Surely this is not the John Elway that many are calling the greatest of all time?

1998

1998 mia W,38-3 | 14 23 182 1 0 | 3 19 0

1998 nyj W,23-10 | 13 34 173 1 0 | 3 13 0

1998 atl W,34-19 | 18 29 336 1 1 | 3 2 1

While better, he hardly carried his team to the Super Bowl. In contrast, Terrell Davis 199 and 167 yards in the first two playoff games in 1998, and only 102 in the Super Bowl when it seemed certain that the coaching staff wanted Elway to win the MVP.

Point is, Elway was a great QB, but he gets WAY too much credit.
His teams made it to 5 Super Bowls and won 2 of them. How much credit should he get?And once again...tell me why he gets punished for having a great running game and winning with it? Many, many, many other QBs have had great running games and not finished.

 
Only broke 4,000 yards once.  Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times.  Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons.  Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio.  He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons,  1993 and 1995-1998.  Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best.  He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.

He's a compiler.  His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats.  Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
Heh...your compiler line is obviously a shot since others have made that argument about your precious Jerome Bettis, but the difference is Elway had some of his best statistical years at the end of his career, unlike Bettis. Did you know that John Elways has the most WINS of any quarterback in NFL history?

Did you also know that he played in Dan Reeves' ultra-conservative offense for almost the first ten years of his NFL career? That is why you always saw Elway making big plays at the end of games. Reeves was so conservative during games that Denver was often behind and only when he had to, did he take the reigns off and let Elway throw the ball a lot and look at the results. Imagine if Elway had played in a QB-friendly offense his entire career like Fouts, Marino, Favre and Manning had/have. Once Shanahan took over as Denver's head coach, we saw the kind of numbers Elway could put up.
Relax. It was tongue-in-cheek. Elway definitely is a Hall of Fame, and likely Top-5 all-time QB, same way Bettis is a HOF running back. Three points though -1) One of your arguments against Bettis is that he only had 5 really good years, and a number of "mediocre to good" ones. the exact same thing could be said about Elway.

2) What difference does it make if a players best years came at the beginning or end of his career? Also, please acknowledge the odds of a QB improving after the age of 32 or so, given the intellectual vs. physical demands of that position as opposed to RB are astronomically higher than those of an RB gaining steam at the age of 32. How many great RBs with long careers went out on top and were at their best in their last 5 seasons?

3) When you were hammering Bettis' relatively meager receiving numbers, I tried to explain that this was more a product of the Pittsburgh system than Bettis being an awful receiver. You told me that blaming the system was a copout, but yet you use the exact same logic to explain Elway's relatively meager passing production under Dan Reeves. You cannot simply take circumstances into consideration when evaluating players you love or players whose career details you're more familiar with, while using only black-and-white numbers to evaulate everyone else. It's an all-or-nothing proposition.

Anyway, all jokes aside, I'd probably say :

Joe Montana

Dan Marino

Tom Brady

Brett Favre

John Elway

Peyton Manning

Steve Young

Troy Aikman

But it's really tough....

 
Only broke 4,000 yards once.  Only broke 3,500 yards 5 times.  Only threw 20+ TDs 6 times in 16 seasons.  Never had a y/a of 8.0 or better in his career. 1.3 to 1 career TD/INT ratio.  He had 5 very good (not outstanding) statistical seasons,  1993 and 1995-1998.  Outside of that - the other 11 seasons of his career were mediocre at best.  He threw for under 3,500 yards for 9 of those 11 seasons and had a TD/INT total of 174/168.

He's a compiler. His Super Bowl rings, which didn't come until TD rode into town, are what gives him the lofty ranking he has among the all-time greats.  Marino, Moon, Fouts, Favre, Manning, and many other QBs were statistically superior.
There it is again. How come Peyton Manning couldn't win when Edge had over 2000 yards and 18 TDs? How come Brett Favre couldn't win when Ahman Green had over 2000 yards and 20 TDs? Having a great running back does not automatically give you Super Bowls. Elway got the job done when he had the opportunity.
My point is this :With a great QB AND a great RB, your chances of winning increase exponentially. It's not Elway's fault that TD was the first truly sensational back he had to go to war with. Barry Sanders never had a great QB to play with. Manning has been victimized by Brady, which is the only reason he's as far down on my list as he is. That's on Peyton, and it's why he ranks below Elway (the ONLY reason why he does..) Favre has a SB title. Aikman has a few, but wouldn't you say Emmitt had a little something to do with that? If rather than Emmitt Smith, the Cowboys had drafted Sammie Smith, would Aikman still have those rings? That's the kind of stuff I look at when evaluating a player - otherwise we could just come up with a mathematical formula that quantifies stats and wins and spit out a number to define a player's career - then there'd be no debate.

 
Assuming we can write in Bradshaw as others have done here...1. Joe Montana2. Terry Bradshaw3. John Elway4. Brett Favre5. Troy Aikman6. Tom Brady7. Steve Young8 .Dan Marino9. Peyton ManningI'd move Manning above Young and Marino if he gets a Super Bowl this year. I think Championships and Longevity are good measures of a "great" quaterback, along with individual accomplishments. Stats are a bit secondary to me. This is obviously why I put guys like Montana, Bradshaw and Elway at the top. Favre's three MVP's is the only reason he's ahead of Aikman, and if Brady continues to play at the level he's at I could see him climbing as he makes a longer career of it. Young only had the one championship, and Marino had none.They are all HOF QB's tho - so it's hard to say any of them are "bad"... it's a great list.

 
Still, to rebut your argument, what I never liked about Elway is that he wasnt a great pure PASSER. Look at the first ten years of his career, when his legend was being cemented in history - he frequently threw more INTs than TD's and had trouble completing above 60%. He was like Mike Vick out there, making crazy plays with his running ability and cannon-for-an-arm, only to follow up with mistakes.
See my comments again about playing Dan Reeves' offense for nearly a decade.
Look, these are Elaways playoff statistics from 1997 & 1998, when the Brioncos won their two Super Bowls

1997

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Surely this is not the John Elway that many are calling the greatest of all time?

1998

1998 mia W,38-3 | 14 23 182 1 0 | 3 19 0

1998 nyj W,23-10 | 13 34 173 1 0 | 3 13 0

1998 atl W,34-19 | 18 29 336 1 1 | 3 2 1

While better, he hardly carried his team to the Super Bowl. In contrast, Terrell Davis 199 and 167 yards in the first two playoff games in 1998, and only 102 in the Super Bowl when it seemed certain that the coaching staff wanted Elway to win the MVP.

Point is, Elway was a great QB, but he gets WAY too much credit.
The Kansas City game in '97 and Jets game in '98 were both played in bad weather conditions and were basically defensive games, which explains his numbers in those games. The Miami game he played great, but they got the lead very quickly and basically ran the ball for most of the second half, although Elway did throw a TD pass to Rod Smith late in the 3rd quarter.

He definitely did not play his best game from a passing standpoint in the Super Bowl win over GB, but he didn't have to since GB could not stop Denver's running game for most of the day. He did, however, make the signature play of the game with his run for a first down late in the 3rd quarter (which is often called one of the greatest plays in Super Bowl history).

In the Super Bowl win over Atlanta, Elway was fabulous. The only INT was not his fault (it bounced out of Shannon Sharpe's hands and into the defenders). Atlanta dared Denver to beat them with the pass and Elway did. Davis did get 100 yards, but it was not his typical day dominating the ball with the run. And for the second year in a row, Elway made the signature play in the SB with his 80-yard TD throw to Rod Smith (which Fox almost didn't get back in time for :lmao: ). I do agree, though, that the coaching staff probably wanted Elway to win the MVP that day. Howard Griffith, the fullback, scored two one-yard TD's, which normally would have been Davis' scores. I thought at the time and still do that Shanahan wanted Elway to go out with the MVP award, so by Davis not having any scores to go along with his yardage, it made it easier to give the award to Elway, who absolutely deserved it.

 
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMO
Joe Montana's high for TD passes in a season is 31 and he only threw 20 or more six times in his career. Montana had ZERO 4000 yard seasons. I guess he is overrated, too, right? And what records did Terrell Davis set? 2000 yards had been done before. He didn't set any touchdown record or yards per carry record or anything like that. Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson and Jamal Lewis have all also ran for 2000 yards. Why didn't they win Super Bowls those seasons since they were dominating like Davis did?

I think many forget that passing numbers by QB's are generally higher now than they were 15-20 years ago. I mean, Steve freaking Beuerlein once threw 36 TD passes in a season. I think that says it all.
Look, these are Elaways playoff statistics from 1997 & 1998, when the Brioncos won their two Super Bowls1997

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Surely this is not the John Elway that many are calling the greatest of all time?

1998

1998 mia W,38-3 | 14 23 182 1 0 | 3 19 0

1998 nyj W,23-10 | 13 34 173 1 0 | 3 13 0

1998 atl W,34-19 | 18 29 336 1 1 | 3 2 1

While better, he hardly carried his team to the Super Bowl. In contrast, Terrell Davis 199 and 167 yards in the first two playoff games in 1998, and only 102 in the Super Bowl when it seemed certain that the coaching staff wanted Elway to win the MVP.

Point is, Elway was a great QB, but he gets WAY too much credit.
And once again...tell me why he gets punished for having a great running game and winning with it?
Again, look at his playoff numbers in those games. He doesnt (shouldnt) get credit because he was a seondary weapon in the offense. Look at the 1997 playoffs, when people were gushing all over him:jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Again, are these the numbers of the GREATEST QB of all time?

 
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1) One of your arguments against Bettis is that he only had 5 really good years, and a number of "mediocre to good" ones. the exact same thing could be said about Elway.
Perhaps, but Elway's not-so-great years probably had more to do with him playing in a conservative offense, while Bettis' had more to do with him not playing as much.
2) What difference does it make if a players best years came at the beginning or end of his career? Also, please acknowledge the odds of a QB improving after the age of 32 or so, given the intellectual vs. physical demands of that position as opposed to RB are astronomically higher than those of an RB gaining steam at the age of 32. How many great RBs with long careers went out on top and were at their best in their last 5 seasons?
Not many. Sanders and Jim Brown are the only ones that come to mind. The difference in Elway's case (as far as when his best years were) is that he showed that he could put up great numbers while playing in QB-friendly offense. It is natural to assume he would have put up similar numbers had he played in an offense like that in the 80's instead of a conservative one.

3) When you were hammering Bettis' relatively meager receiving numbers, I tried to explain that this was more a product of the Pittsburgh system than Bettis being an awful receiver. You told me that blaming the system was a copout, but yet you use the exact same logic to explain Elway's relatively meager passing production under Dan Reeves. You cannot simply take circumstances into consideration when evaluating players you love or players whose career details you're more familiar with, while using only black-and-white numbers to evaulate everyone else. It's an all-or-nothing proposition.
My comment about Bettis was that if he is a better pass catcher than I think he is, then it has been a mistake on Cowher's part not to use him more in that area, just like it was a mistake for Reeves to restrict Elway and force him to play in a conservative offense. You should build your offense around the strengths of your players, not force them to adjust to what your preferred style of offense is.
 
I wasnt referring to Elways cumulative stats - if we went by career stays, Vinny Testeverde would be included in this discussion. Elway only threw for 4000 yards once in his 16 year career and never had more than 27 TD's in ANY season. In fact in his first TEN years, he only threw more than 20 TD's in a season once (22 in 1985). Combined that with the fact that Elway won his only 2 SB's at the end of his career (when Terrell Davis was setting all kinds of records) makes me believe that he is vastly overrated. JMO
Joe Montana's high for TD passes in a season is 31 and he only threw 20 or more six times in his career. Montana had ZERO 4000 yard seasons. I guess he is overrated, too, right? And what records did Terrell Davis set? 2000 yards had been done before. He didn't set any touchdown record or yards per carry record or anything like that. Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson and Jamal Lewis have all also ran for 2000 yards. Why didn't they win Super Bowls those seasons since they were dominating like Davis did?

I think many forget that passing numbers by QB's are generally higher now than they were 15-20 years ago. I mean, Steve freaking Beuerlein once threw 36 TD passes in a season. I think that says it all.
Look, these are Elaways playoff statistics from 1997 & 1998, when the Brioncos won their two Super Bowls1997

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Surely this is not the John Elway that many are calling the greatest of all time?

1998

1998 mia W,38-3 | 14 23 182 1 0 | 3 19 0

1998 nyj W,23-10 | 13 34 173 1 0 | 3 13 0

1998 atl W,34-19 | 18 29 336 1 1 | 3 2 1

While better, he hardly carried his team to the Super Bowl. In contrast, Terrell Davis 199 and 167 yards in the first two playoff games in 1998, and only 102 in the Super Bowl when it seemed certain that the coaching staff wanted Elway to win the MVP.

Point is, Elway was a great QB, but he gets WAY too much credit.
And once again...tell me why he gets punished for having a great running game and winning with it?
Again, look at his playoff numbers in those games. He doesnt (shouldnt) get credit because he was a seondary weapon in the offense. Look at 1997, when people were gushing all over him:jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Again, are these the numbers of the GREATEST QB of all time?
So any QB that had a great running game shouldn't get credit for the Super Bowl win? Ridiculous. Using that logic...go ahead and take away Favre's Super Bowl since he had the #1 defense. Don't give Brady credit because he had the best coach. Don't give Aikman credit because he had the best running game. Etc, etc. Elway made it to 5 Super Bowls. He won 2. That's greatness.
 
Again, look at his playoff numbers in those games. He doesnt (shouldnt) get credit because he was a seondary weapon in the offense. Look at the 1997 playoffs, when people were gushing all over him:

jax W,42-17 | 16 24 223 1 0

kan W,14-10 | 10 19 170 0 0

pit W,24-21 | 18 31 210 2 1 |

gnb W,31-24 | 12 22 123 0 1 |

Again, are these the numbers of the GREATEST QB of all time?
You simply do not get it. A QB is not going to put up crazy numbers in every game. Elway did what needed to be done in those games to get the victories and that is what matters. If you had any memory at all, you would remember the end of the Pittsburgh game when the Broncos had a 24-21 and 3rd and long deep in their own territory. If they do not convert, the Steelers get the ball back with great field position and a chance to tie the game. However, Elway made a tremendous throw to Sharpe to convert, Davis later ran for a first down and the game was over. There is more to a QB's greatness than just numbers.

 
Again, look at his playoff numbers in those games. He doesnt (shouldnt) get credit because he was a seondary weapon in the offense. Look at the 1997 playoffs, when people were gushing all over him:

jax  W,42-17  |  16  24  223  1  0 

kan  W,14-10  |  10  19  170  0  0

pit  W,24-21  |  18  31  210  2  1  |

gnb  W,31-24  |  12  22  123  0  1  |   

Again, are these the numbers of the GREATEST QB of all time?
You simply do not get it. A QB is not going to put up crazy numbers in every game. Elway did what needed to be done in those games to get the victories and that is what matters.
Explain to me how going 12 for 22 for 122 yards and an INT in the Super Bowl is doing "what needed to be done in those games to get the victories." I'll tell you how. Revisionist History.

 
Again, look at his playoff numbers in those games. He doesnt (shouldnt) get credit because he was a seondary weapon in the offense. Look at the 1997 playoffs, when people were gushing all over him:

jax  W,42-17  |   16   24   223   1   0 

kan  W,14-10  |   10   19   170   0   0

pit  W,24-21  |   18   31   210   2   1  |

gnb  W,31-24  |   12   22   123   0   1  |   

Again, are these the numbers of the GREATEST QB of all time?
You simply do not get it. A QB is not going to put up crazy numbers in every game. Elway did what needed to be done in those games to get the victories and that is what matters.
Explain to me how going 12 for 22 for 122 yards and an INT in the Super Bowl is doing "what needed to be done in those games to get the victories." I'll tell you how. Revisionist History.
31-24. Broncos win. Yes, Davis was a big part of that Broncos team. He was an absolute stud. But Elway delivered every time he had to and came out with 2 rings.

Would you like me to run down the RBs who have had as many total yards in a season (there are a bunch) as Davis did and find out how they finished each year? I can tell you that it won't be pretty.

 
1) One of your arguments against Bettis is that he only had 5 really good years, and a number of "mediocre to good" ones.  the exact same thing could be said about Elway.
Perhaps, but Elway's not-so-great years probably had more to do with him playing in a conservative offense, while Bettis' had more to do with him not playing as much.
2) What difference does it make if a players best years came at the beginning or end of his career?  Also, please acknowledge the odds of a QB improving after the age of 32 or so, given the intellectual vs. physical demands of that position as opposed to RB are astronomically higher than those of an RB gaining steam at the age of 32.  How many great RBs with long careers went out on top and were at their best in their last 5 seasons?
Not many. Sanders and Jim Brown are the only ones that come to mind. The difference in Elway's case (as far as when his best years were) is that he showed that he could put up great numbers while playing in QB-friendly offense. It is natural to assume he would have put up similar numbers had he played in an offense like that in the 80's instead of a conservative one.

3) When you were hammering Bettis' relatively meager receiving numbers, I tried to explain that this was more a product of the Pittsburgh system than Bettis being an awful receiver.  You told me that blaming the system was a copout, but yet you use the exact same logic to explain Elway's relatively meager passing production under Dan Reeves.  You cannot simply take circumstances into consideration when evaluating players you love or players whose career details you're more familiar with, while using only black-and-white numbers to evaulate everyone else.  It's an all-or-nothing proposition.
My comment about Bettis was that if he is a better pass catcher than I think he is, then it has been a mistake on Cowher's part not to use him more in that area, just like it was a mistake for Reeves to restrict Elway and force him to play in a conservative offense. You should build your offense around the strengths of your players, not force them to adjust to what your preferred style of offense is.
1) In Elway's first 10 seasons, he threw as many or more INTs than TDs 5 times. If he did play in a very consrvative offense, that makes those INT numbers that much worse. Point being, he didn't have very good years because he didn't play particularly well, not because the offense restricted him.2) What you say is true. I just don't think Elway should be given any greater weight in a historical sense because he excelled late in his career as opposed to early. Any are free to disagree with this, just my opinion.

3) Correct. However, this was the system in which Bettis played. If you're going to talk about how Bettis' receiving stats suck compared to Faulk's... well, of course they do. If Bettis gets 20 targets in a season and Faulk gets 130, of course Faulk is going to have much better receiving stats (of course we all know Faulk is a better receiver as well, I'm not saying otherwise, but the point is, the OPPORTUNITY was never there for Jerome.) So, if you're going to point to Elway's paltry passing stats early in his career and say it's the product of an offensive philosophy, I can buy that to some extent. However, if you're going to do that, you can't really fault Bettis in comparison to Faulk for having much weaker receiving numbers. It's easy to see the parallel here.

 
I can't believe people are choosing Elway as #1 overall when his team passing records are being beaten by Jake Plummer. His Super Bowl stats? 50% completions, 3 TDs (plus one rushing), 8 INT. He made it through a pathetically weak AFC several times, and then rode a 2000-yard season by Terrell Davis and the league's #1 defense to a couple of actual Super Bowl wins. Most overrated QB of all time.

(And the when he lost in the Super Bowl, the defense was top-10 in the league in 1987 and #1 in 1989. Those Denver teams would have won with most of the other QBs on this list).
Denver did not have the number 1 defense in the NFL either season they won the Super Bowl. In fact, Denver's 'D' allowed more yards per carry (around 4.6, I think) in '97 than any Super Bowl winner had at the time. What passing records is Plummer beating?

You do realize that those teams in the 80's would not have gotten to the Super Bowl if not for Elway, right? Oh wait. Judging from your post, it is obvious you do not.

And I believe Elway has 3 rushing touchdowns in his five Super Bowl appearances, not just 1.

Lastly, Elway's stats in the 80's were hindered by playing in Dan Reeves' conservative offense. It is scary to think of the numbers he would have put up if he had played in offenses like Marino and Montana had in the 80's.
In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.Plummer now holds the single-season Denver yardage and TD records, and has more fourth-quarter comebacks per game played than Elway. (Fourth-quarter comebacks is a BS stat which measures opportunity, but people talk about it all the time in Elway's context).

 
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1. Elway

2. Montana

3. Young

4. Brady

5. Favre

6. Aikman

7. Marino

8. Manning

If Peyton wins the Super Bowl this year...go ahead and move him ahead of Favre. If Brady wins the Super Bowl...put him just a hair behind Elway at #2.
Championships are overrated when talking about the greatest at any one position (see Bart Starr ;) ) Football is a team sport.
Politely disagree...to a point. If you are ranking QBs with similar careers (like these guys, they were ALL great)...then post season winners will get the nod everytime. Manning, Marino and Favre are probably the 2 best REGULAR season QBs of all-time...but neither comes close to matching Brady, Montana, and Elway's post-season success. Since those 3 all have been great regular season QBs as well, they rank ahead of the other 2. Aikman falls because he was great in the post-season, but was the consistent performer of the others in the regular season. You have to take both things into account.
Aikman doesn't belong on this list. It's probably too early to put Manning and Brady on it as well. Yes, Brady. Like I said, winning championships is the goal, but it takes more than 1 player. I don't think a QBs greatness should be measured by titles alone, or lack thereof.
How about being the MVP for 2 championship games? No team in the salary cap era has epitomized the team concept as the Patriots but c'mon. The guy has played huge in the most clutch games you can get into. He's still racking up numbers with more playoff wins to come (probably). I agree that championships can cause disagreement when ranking all timers but performing as MVP in the champioship games counts for something indeed.
 
I can't believe people are choosing Elway as #1 overall when his team passing records are being beaten by Jake Plummer.  His Super Bowl stats?  50% completions, 3 TDs (plus one rushing), 8 INT.  He made it through a pathetically weak AFC several times, and then rode a 2000-yard season by Terrell Davis and the league's #1 defense to a couple of actual Super Bowl wins.  Most overrated QB of all time. 

(And the when he lost in the Super Bowl, the defense was top-10 in the league in 1987 and #1 in 1989.  Those Denver teams would have won with most of the other QBs on this list).
Denver did not have the number 1 defense in the NFL either season they won the Super Bowl. In fact, Denver's 'D' allowed more yards per carry (around 4.6, I think) in '97 than any Super Bowl winner had at the time. What passing records is Plummer beating?

You do realize that those teams in the 80's would not have gotten to the Super Bowl if not for Elway, right? Oh wait. Judging from your post, it is obvious you do not.

And I believe Elway has 3 rushing touchdowns in his five Super Bowl appearances, not just 1.

Lastly, Elway's stats in the 80's were hindered by playing in Dan Reeves' conservative offense. It is scary to think of the numbers he would have put up if he had played in offenses like Marino and Montana had in the 80's.
In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.
Ouch.
 
I can't believe people are choosing Elway as #1 overall when his team passing records are being beaten by Jake Plummer.  His Super Bowl stats?  50% completions, 3 TDs (plus one rushing), 8 INT.  He made it through a pathetically weak AFC several times, and then rode a 2000-yard season by Terrell Davis and the league's #1 defense to a couple of actual Super Bowl wins.  Most overrated QB of all time. 

(And the when he lost in the Super Bowl, the defense was top-10 in the league in 1987 and #1 in 1989.  Those Denver teams would have won with most of the other QBs on this list).
Denver did not have the number 1 defense in the NFL either season they won the Super Bowl. In fact, Denver's 'D' allowed more yards per carry (around 4.6, I think) in '97 than any Super Bowl winner had at the time. What passing records is Plummer beating?

You do realize that those teams in the 80's would not have gotten to the Super Bowl if not for Elway, right? Oh wait. Judging from your post, it is obvious you do not.

And I believe Elway has 3 rushing touchdowns in his five Super Bowl appearances, not just 1.

Lastly, Elway's stats in the 80's were hindered by playing in Dan Reeves' conservative offense. It is scary to think of the numbers he would have put up if he had played in offenses like Marino and Montana had in the 80's.
In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.
Ouch.
Without Elway, they don't even MAKE IT into the Superbowl that year, though.How quickly we forget the AFC title game:

20 for 35, 385 yrds, 3 TDs

 
Explain to me how going 12 for 22 for 122 yards and an INT in the Super Bowl is doing "what needed to be done in those games to get the victories."

I'll tell you how. Revisionist History.
Look at Tom Brady's numbers in Super Bowl 36. They aren't much better. And he was the MVP! Like I have said, numbers do not always tell the story. And you are still ignoring Elway's signature play in that game (his helicopter run). There are some plays you cannot measure their importance on a piece of paper and that is one of them.

1) In Elway's first 10 seasons, he threw as many or more INTs than TDs 5 times. If he did play in a very consrvative offense, that makes those INT numbers that much worse. Point being, he didn't have very good years because he didn't play particularly well, not because the offense restricted him.
Quarterbacks often struggle early in their careers, so I am not going to get on Elway too much for struggling early. And he only had 4 seasons with more INT's than TD's. Two of the three were in '83 and '85 (his first and third years). '92, a season where he missed four games, was probably his worst season as a pro considering he was much more experienced at the time. I don't want to turn this into an Elway vs. Bettis thread. It is apples and oranges trying to compare a QB to a RB.

In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.

Plummer now holds the single-season Denver yardage and TD records, and has more fourth-quarter comebacks per game played than Elway. (Fourth-quarter comebacks is a BS stat which measures opportunity, but people talk about it all the time in Elway's context).
Yeah, and that number one defense got trampled in the Super Bowl for 55 points. They fell behind quickly. You try putting up good numbers when you are already down 27-3 at the half. I think the fact that Plummer is putting up good numbers just shows you how great of a job Shanahan has done with him.

And Plummer has more fourth-quarter comebacks per game than Elway, but that is if you count his comebacks with Arizona, I believe. As a Bronco, um, no.

I can't believe people are choosing Elway as #1 overall when his team passing records are being beaten by Jake Plummer. His Super Bowl stats? 50% completions, 3 TDs (plus one rushing), 8 INT. He made it through a pathetically weak AFC several times, and then rode a 2000-yard season by Terrell Davis and the league's #1 defense to a couple of actual Super Bowl wins. Most overrated QB of all time.

(And the when he lost in the Super Bowl, the defense was top-10 in the league in 1987 and #1 in 1989. Those Denver teams would have won with most of the other QBs on this list).
Denver did not have the number 1 defense in the NFL either season they won the Super Bowl. In fact, Denver's 'D' allowed more yards per carry (around 4.6, I think) in '97 than any Super Bowl winner had at the time. What passing records is Plummer beating?

You do realize that those teams in the 80's would not have gotten to the Super Bowl if not for Elway, right? Oh wait. Judging from your post, it is obvious you do not.

And I believe Elway has 3 rushing touchdowns in his five Super Bowl appearances, not just 1.

Lastly, Elway's stats in the 80's were hindered by playing in Dan Reeves' conservative offense. It is scary to think of the numbers he would have put up if he had played in offenses like Marino and Montana had in the 80's.
In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.
Ouch.
Without Elway, they don't even MAKE IT into the Superbowl that year, though.How quickly we forget the AFC title game:

20 for 35, 385 yrds, 3 TDs
:goodposting:
 
In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed. What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl? Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs. Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.

Plummer now holds the single-season Denver yardage and TD records, and has more fourth-quarter comebacks per game played than Elway. (Fourth-quarter comebacks is a BS stat which measures opportunity, but people talk about it all the time in Elway's context).
Yeah, and that number one defense got trampled in the Super Bowl for 55 points. They fell behind quickly. You try putting up good numbers when you are already down 27-3 at the half.
Here's Denver's drives of the first half that game:D 23 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson right underthrown, incomplete.

D 23 2–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson middle overthrown, incomplete.

D 23 3–10 Elway 2 run evading pass rush (Fagan).

D 25 4–8 Horan 41 punt, Taylor fair catch.

D 26 1–10 Elway 27 shovel pass to Humphrey (Lott).

SF 47 1–10 Elway shovel pass to Humphrey incomplete.

SF 47 2–10 Humphrey 10 run middle (C. Brooks).

SF 37 1–10 Humphrey 6 run right end (Walter).

SF 31 2–4 Humphrey 3 draw middle (Millen).

SF 28 3–1 Elway 3 run middle (Millen).

SF 25 1–10 Elway shovel pass knocked away (Haley), incomplete.

SF 25 2–10 Elway pass to Mobley left overthrown, incomplete.

SF 25 3–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson right incomplete.

SF 25 4–10 Treadwell, 42–yard field goal (6:47).

D 49 1–10 Humphrey 1 run left tackle (Fagan), fumbled, C. Brooks recovered for San Francisco at SF 46.

D 25 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson broken up (Griffin), incomplete.

D 25 2–10 Elway pass to Kay broken up (Lott), incomplete.

D 25 3–10 Elway 7 screen pass to Winder middle (Holt).

D 32 4–3 Horan 37 punt, Taylor fair catch.

D 21 1–10 Humphrey run left, loss of 3 (Millen).

D 18 2–13 Humphrey 2 draw middle (Holt).

D 20 3–11 Elway pass to M. Jackson middle dropped, incomplete.

D 20 4–11 Horan 30 punt out of bounds at 50.

D 16 1–10 Elway 4 pass to Humphrey right (Kugler).

D 20 2–6 Elway 6 pass to Kay middle (Millen).

D 26 1–10 Elway 8 pass to Johnson middle (Kugler). Two–Minute Warning.

D 34 2–2 Elway pass to Johnson right incomplete.

D 34 3–2 Elway pass to M. Jackson right broken up (McKyer), incomplete.

D 34 4–2 Horan 42 punt, Taylor 17 return (Dennison).

D 37 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson deep broken up (Wright), incomplete.

D 37 2–10 Elway 12 pass to Sewell middle (Romanowski). Denver–first time out :-)12).

D 49 1–10 Elway pass to M. Young left sideline incomplete.

D 49 2–10 Elway pass to M. Young right sideline incomplete.

You don't think Elway being 6-19 for 64 yards in the first half might have something to do with the fact that they were down by 24 at that point? Or for that matter, the fact that they were playing against the actual #1 QB of the era?

What about two years earlier, where Denver was up 10-0 and Washington scored 42 unanswered points? I suppose that was all the defense's fault and had nothing to do with Elway's poor performance.

Or the year before that, when the game was iced when Elway threw an INT deep in his own end while down 26-10.

Fact is, the AFC was horrendously weak in the 1980s. Starting with San Francisco's win over Cincinatti in 1981, the NFC went 15-1 against the AFC in the Super Bowl over the next 16 years. If Denver were in the NFC, they wouldn't have gone to the Super Bowl in any of those years. In 1987 there was no AFC team with 11 wins; in 1989 the Broncos were the only AFC team with more than nine. So I really don't put much credence in Elway's AFC playoff stats as an indication of success.

 
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In 1989, Denver had the #1 defense by points allowed.  What would you expect a team with the #1 defense, and the best QB of all time to do in the Super Bowl?  Probably something other than lose 55-10 while the QB goes 10/26 for 106 yards and 2 INTs.  Elway was the weak link on that team, not the reason they got to the Super Bowl.

Plummer now holds the single-season Denver yardage and TD records, and has more fourth-quarter comebacks per game played than Elway.  (Fourth-quarter comebacks is a BS stat which measures opportunity, but people talk about it all the time in Elway's context).
Yeah, and that number one defense got trampled in the Super Bowl for 55 points. They fell behind quickly. You try putting up good numbers when you are already down 27-3 at the half.
Here's Denver's drives of the first half that game:D 23 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson right underthrown, incomplete.

D 23 2–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson middle overthrown, incomplete.

D 23 3–10 Elway 2 run evading pass rush (Fagan).

D 25 4–8 Horan 41 punt, Taylor fair catch.

D 26 1–10 Elway 27 shovel pass to Humphrey (Lott).

SF 47 1–10 Elway shovel pass to Humphrey incomplete.

SF 47 2–10 Humphrey 10 run middle (C. Brooks).

SF 37 1–10 Humphrey 6 run right end (Walter).

SF 31 2–4 Humphrey 3 draw middle (Millen).

SF 28 3–1 Elway 3 run middle (Millen).

SF 25 1–10 Elway shovel pass knocked away (Haley), incomplete.

SF 25 2–10 Elway pass to Mobley left overthrown, incomplete.

SF 25 3–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson right incomplete.

SF 25 4–10 Treadwell, 42–yard field goal (6:47).

D 49 1–10 Humphrey 1 run left tackle (Fagan), fumbled, C. Brooks recovered for San Francisco at SF 46.

D 25 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson broken up (Griffin), incomplete.

D 25 2–10 Elway pass to Kay broken up (Lott), incomplete.

D 25 3–10 Elway 7 screen pass to Winder middle (Holt).

D 32 4–3 Horan 37 punt, Taylor fair catch.

D 21 1–10 Humphrey run left, loss of 3 (Millen).

D 18 2–13 Humphrey 2 draw middle (Holt).

D 20 3–11 Elway pass to M. Jackson middle dropped, incomplete.

D 20 4–11 Horan 30 punt out of bounds at 50.

D 16 1–10 Elway 4 pass to Humphrey right (Kugler).

D 20 2–6 Elway 6 pass to Kay middle (Millen).

D 26 1–10 Elway 8 pass to Johnson middle (Kugler). Two–Minute Warning.

D 34 2–2 Elway pass to Johnson right incomplete.

D 34 3–2 Elway pass to M. Jackson right broken up (McKyer), incomplete.

D 34 4–2 Horan 42 punt, Taylor 17 return (Dennison).

D 37 1–10 Elway pass to M. Jackson deep broken up (Wright), incomplete.

D 37 2–10 Elway 12 pass to Sewell middle (Romanowski). Denver–first time out :-)12).

D 49 1–10 Elway pass to M. Young left sideline incomplete.

D 49 2–10 Elway pass to M. Young right sideline incomplete.

You don't think Elway being 6-19 for 64 yards in the first half might have something to do with the fact that they were down by 24 at that point? Or for that matter, the fact that they were playing against the actual #1 QB of the era?

What about two years earlier, where Denver was up 10-0 and Washington scored 42 unanswered points? I suppose that was all the defense's fault and had nothing to do with Elway's poor performance.

Or the year before that, when the game was iced when Elway threw an INT deep in his own end while down 26-10.

Fact is, the AFC was horrendously weak in the 1980s. Starting with San Francisco's win over Cincinatti in 1981, the NFC went 15-1 against the AFC in the Super Bowl over the next 16 years. If Denver were in the NFC, they wouldn't have gone to the Super Bowl in any of those years. In 1987 there was no AFC team with 11 wins; in 1989 the Broncos were the only AFC team with more than nine. So I really don't put much credence in Elway's AFC playoff stats as an indication of success.
Great post, especially the last paragraph. :goodposting:
 
1. Elway2. Montana3. Favre4. Marino5. Young6. Brady7. Manning8. AikmanBrady and Manning will probably be at the top of the list when their careers are over. Every player on the list is in or will be in the HOF. I don't think you can go wrong.

 
I can't believe the lack of love for Aikman.
Aikman doesn't even deserve to be listed in this group.If you want to pick the best Cowboy QB ever, it was Staubach, easily. Aikman was a good QB when he was surrounded by the best players in the league but he did NOTHING later on. He should never be mentioned with the all time great QBs.

Staubach was a consistent, clutch QB that could threaten any defense with his running and passing and deserves to be mentioned with the others.

1. Montana

2. Elway

3. Marino

4. Favre

5. Staubach

6. Manning

7. Brady

8. Young

 

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