Chase Stuart
Footballguy
1 = Bottom three offensive coordinators in the NFL
5 = average offensive coordinator
10 = Top three offensive coordinators
5 = average offensive coordinator
10 = Top three offensive coordinators
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Rate Mike Martz (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Chase Stuart
- Start date
Also voted 10. Shanahan's turned over his entire roster except for Tom Nalen and Rod Smith and has only once in 11 seasons finished outside the top 10 in scoring (the dreaded 1999 season when he lost Elway and Davis). Then, too, there's his amazing offenses in San Francisco and his work with the Denver Broncos in the 80s. After that, I had a really hard time thinking of any other offensive coordinator or offense-minded head coach that I'd put above Martz.
Vermeil seemed like the first obvious choice, but I went back and looked at his history. He had two good-but-not-great offenses in Philly, he had ONE SEASON with a good offense in St. Louis (and the other 2 years were brutally bad)- and he had Martz around taking some of the credit for that- and then he had Kansas City. I begin to wonder how much of his offensive success was a result of him and how much was a result of his coordinators.
Holmgren was another candidate, but looking back at it... Green Bay's offense remained great after Holmgren left, and Seattle's offense has only been really good in 2 of his 5 seasons. Again, I question how much was Holmgren and how much was Favre.
Gruden's tempting because of his work in Oakland and because he's always had a cruddy cast in Tampa, but the truth is, Tampa's offense hasn't once been in the top 50%.
Joe Gibbs will definitely make the list as soon as I'm sure that he's really back, from an offensive standpoint. Last year's 13th/11th rankings don't really do anything for me, and I still remember the 31/30 rankings from the year before.
So that means, outside of Shanahan, I can't really think of anyone who has
A) had as much or more sustained success as Mike Martz.
B) Has had that success despite as much or more player turnover as Martz has faced
C) Has engineered as many absolutely amazing offenses as Mike Martz.
D) Has engineered as few mediocre offenses as Mike Martz has.
E) Has had so much success developing pro bowl and HoF offensive players, especially from castoffs and rejects, as Mike Martz has.
Best of all, Martz has done it all in an environment with absolutely no other strong offensive minds to take some of the credit for the success (with the exception of the one year with Vermeil).
Vermeil seemed like the first obvious choice, but I went back and looked at his history. He had two good-but-not-great offenses in Philly, he had ONE SEASON with a good offense in St. Louis (and the other 2 years were brutally bad)- and he had Martz around taking some of the credit for that- and then he had Kansas City. I begin to wonder how much of his offensive success was a result of him and how much was a result of his coordinators.
Holmgren was another candidate, but looking back at it... Green Bay's offense remained great after Holmgren left, and Seattle's offense has only been really good in 2 of his 5 seasons. Again, I question how much was Holmgren and how much was Favre.
Gruden's tempting because of his work in Oakland and because he's always had a cruddy cast in Tampa, but the truth is, Tampa's offense hasn't once been in the top 50%.
Joe Gibbs will definitely make the list as soon as I'm sure that he's really back, from an offensive standpoint. Last year's 13th/11th rankings don't really do anything for me, and I still remember the 31/30 rankings from the year before.
So that means, outside of Shanahan, I can't really think of anyone who has
A) had as much or more sustained success as Mike Martz.
B) Has had that success despite as much or more player turnover as Martz has faced
C) Has engineered as many absolutely amazing offenses as Mike Martz.
D) Has engineered as few mediocre offenses as Mike Martz has.
E) Has had so much success developing pro bowl and HoF offensive players, especially from castoffs and rejects, as Mike Martz has.
Best of all, Martz has done it all in an environment with absolutely no other strong offensive minds to take some of the credit for the success (with the exception of the one year with Vermeil).
M
MLBrandow
Guest
I voted 9, only because I couldn't see myself voting 10 for him.
I probably should have though, because I can't name three playcallers that I think are definitely better...
1) Belichick
2) Shanahan?
Then I end up with a half dozen guys that are in the Martz zone to me.
Andy Reid, Jeff Fisher,
Don't know. He's pretty damn good though.
Would you consider Peyton Manning a playcaller?
I probably should have though, because I can't name three playcallers that I think are definitely better...
1) Belichick
2) Shanahan?
Then I end up with a half dozen guys that are in the Martz zone to me.
Andy Reid, Jeff Fisher,
Don't know. He's pretty damn good though.
Would you consider Peyton Manning a playcaller?
videoguy505
Footballguy
I lost respect for Martz when Faulk carried them to the Super Bowl, then he forgot to use him once he was there. Put me in the "he's overrated" camp.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
As a coordinator, 10.
As a head coach, 5/6. He gets too wrapped up in his own offensive genius when he's calling all the shots. Forgetting about Faulk in the SB was inexcusable.
As a head coach, 5/6. He gets too wrapped up in his own offensive genius when he's calling all the shots. Forgetting about Faulk in the SB was inexcusable.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I don't think even Belichick would say he's a better offensive playcaller than Martz, much less the best in the game.
I say 10. Limiting it to OC/playcaller really does it. I really can't think of anyone I would rather have in that position.
Althought the guy who said Denny Green has a really good point. He has put together a few incredible seasons. He has also had some stinkers, whereas I really can't think of a season that Martz has coached when his offense wasn't top notch.
Althought the guy who said Denny Green has a really good point. He has put together a few incredible seasons. He has also had some stinkers, whereas I really can't think of a season that Martz has coached when his offense wasn't top notch.
Question. Who is a better OCoordinator/Playcaller:1. A guy who puts up a top-5 offense year after year, and then underutilizes his RB in the SB.
2. A guy who puts up a top-10 offense year after year, and then properly utilizes his RB in the SB.
One dumb game shouldn't outweigh an entire career- and remember, the Rams still had a shot to win that game until the very last play. It's not like he destroyed his team's chances, there- his team was still very much in it.
Seriously. He's presided over exactly 2 top-10 offenses- one of which ranked 4th in points and 7th in yards while Charlie Weis was the OC/Playcaller, and one of which ranked 10th in points and 9th in yards and baaaaaarely qualifies as a "top-10" offense.
jerseyh8r
Footballguy
I voted 8- would have been a 10 if he didn't hang his QBs out to dry as much as he does. I don't know if it is a blocking scheme thing, or if he is just stubborn, but the Rams would have been a lot better if Bulger had been kept healthy over the last few seasons (see 2006 Rams offense....speculating, of course). 
