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RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire, KC (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BigTex
- Start date
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
CEH shareholders: If you could get a top 2 pick in 2023 for CEH, would you take the chance on Bijan or Gibbs (assuming they’re still the top 2 backs), or stick with CEH, hoping the gall bladder surgery was the cause of his woes?
What was his excuse for 2020? Oh yeah, COVID, minimal training camp, etc.
At some point he either is or isn’t a good FF RB, and either was or was not worth a 1st round rookie pick when drafted.
I sold for 1.01 (my own pick on a deep rebuild) and at least for now have no regrets. Based on usage, I don’t anticipate having any regrets.
What was his excuse for 2020? Oh yeah, COVID, minimal training camp, etc.
At some point he either is or isn’t a good FF RB, and either was or was not worth a 1st round rookie pick when drafted.
I sold for 1.01 (my own pick on a deep rebuild) and at least for now have no regrets. Based on usage, I don’t anticipate having any regrets.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
No, on the field. I didn’t see him look underweight at the start of the season at all. I seriously doubt he regained 40+ lbs in 5 months..
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massraider
Footballguy
I'm trying to see where the Chiefs decide they need to get him the ball more. His value has to come from receptions, right? They have so many guys that can take a short pass the distance.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
This is what @Dr. Octopus& I were questioning as well. One would think that the ideal usage for a guy with CEH skills would be to get him in space. And it’s not like Reid doesn’t throw to his RBs. Westbrook was the most frequent comp for CEH when the Chiefs took him & why FF owners got all giddy about drafting him. But he hasn’t been used like that at all. 19 receptions on 23 targets. His 6.8 YPC is skewed by a 29 yard catch & a game where he caught 1/2 for 11. Mostly he was ineffective.I'm trying to see where the Chiefs decide they need to get him the ball more. His value has to come from receptions, right? They have so many guys that can take a short pass the distance.
but it does seem like if he were getting 3-5 receptions a game he might become a solid FF player as his floor would be bolstered.
As it stands, he not even a “boom or bust” guy. He’s a “meh or bust”.
looking at 2021, his best games were
• chargers - 17/100/0, 2/9/1
• Eagles - 14/102/0, 2/12/1
• Cowboys - 12/63/1, 2/13/0
• Raiders 10/37/2, 3/5/0
He also scored 4 of his 6 TD’s in those 4 games, so the rest of the year really wasn’t pretty.
Those numbers, while decent, still weren’t anything special. Certainly not worthy of “KC’s starting RB” special, or deserving of a Westbrook comp. If you saw one of those lines for Westbrook in his prime, you’d be asking “did he get hurt at halftime?”
Unless Reid decides to throw to him a lot more, I don’t see where his value comes from as a 7-17 carry, 1-3 reception kind of player.
jm192
Footballguy
What are people doing with him?
A big part of me wants to get out. I worry Darryl Williams or McKinnon is going to continue to cut into his workload. I kind of feel like if I can get out around where I bought in, I'm ready to get out.
I paid 2.12 and Palmer. I figured I'd shop him for an early 2nd and hope someone decent makes it there.
A big part of me wants to get out. I worry Darryl Williams or McKinnon is going to continue to cut into his workload. I kind of feel like if I can get out around where I bought in, I'm ready to get out.
I paid 2.12 and Palmer. I figured I'd shop him for an early 2nd and hope someone decent makes it there.
Williams and McKinnon are FAs, but that might be more of a negative than a positive. I wouldn't be shocked if they aimed higher for a RBBC mate. Maybe somebody like a James Conner, or maybe Melvin Gordon?
I'd be very worried about CEH right now. I can't imagine his situation is any better in 2022. Maybe you can convince someone to give up a late 1st, if they are desperate at RB.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Um that is incredible. I would buy for an early 2nd in an instant. I am not a huge fan but the hate is too much IMO.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I agree. I sold high after his productive 2-game stretch, but I still don’t see him going for less than a late 1st.
He’s not a feature back, but he should have plenty of opportunity. I don’t see them beginning in a big name FA. Historically they’ve brought in marginal role players & have gotten a lot out of them.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
ETA - sorry, misunderstood. You meant RoJo muddies CEH’s opportunity. Got it.
I sold CEH for a 1st 2023 1st back in week 4 or 5 last year - it was my own pick I'd dealt previously, and I have a rebuilding team so it's likely to be 1.01
Zero regrets.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I agree with SportsEdge. This is potentially terrible news for CEH.
“Chiefs re-signed RB Jerick McKinnon to a one-year contract.
McKinnon emerged as the Chiefs' most productive, reliable running back in the postseason last year. His return to the Kansas City backfield is a potentially serious issue for Clyde Edwards-Helaire, who profiled as the team's best pass-catching RB before McKinnon re-signed. Ronald Jones remains the likely early-down back for Patrick Mahomes' offense. Recovered from a career-altering knee injury, McKinnon saw 48 touches of KC's three playoff contests, flashing playmaking ability as a pass catcher out of the backfield. Entering his age-30 season, he makes sense as a late-round flier in redraft formats.”
Certainly not news I’d want to see if I were a CEH shareholder.
“Chiefs re-signed RB Jerick McKinnon to a one-year contract.
McKinnon emerged as the Chiefs' most productive, reliable running back in the postseason last year. His return to the Kansas City backfield is a potentially serious issue for Clyde Edwards-Helaire, who profiled as the team's best pass-catching RB before McKinnon re-signed. Ronald Jones remains the likely early-down back for Patrick Mahomes' offense. Recovered from a career-altering knee injury, McKinnon saw 48 touches of KC's three playoff contests, flashing playmaking ability as a pass catcher out of the backfield. Entering his age-30 season, he makes sense as a late-round flier in redraft formats.”
Certainly not news I’d want to see if I were a CEH shareholder.
jm192
Footballguy
Was honestly starting to feel pretty hopeful. This is definitely frustrating.I agree with SportsEdge. This is potentially terrible news for CEH.
“Chiefs re-signed RB Jerick McKinnon to a one-year contract.
McKinnon emerged as the Chiefs' most productive, reliable running back in the postseason last year. His return to the Kansas City backfield is a potentially serious issue for Clyde Edwards-Helaire, who profiled as the team's best pass-catching RB before McKinnon re-signed. Ronald Jones remains the likely early-down back for Patrick Mahomes' offense. Recovered from a career-altering knee injury, McKinnon saw 48 touches of KC's three playoff contests, flashing playmaking ability as a pass catcher out of the backfield. Entering his age-30 season, he makes sense as a late-round flier in redraft formats.”
Certainly not news I’d want to see if I were a CEH shareholder.
I'm kind of on the other side here. I'm higher on CEH than I was at the end of last season. I was worried they were going to bring in somebody like a Walker/Hall in the draft, or a FA like Gordon or Conner if he'd hit the market.I agree with SportsEdge. This is potentially terrible news for CEH.
“Chiefs re-signed RB Jerick McKinnon to a one-year contract.
McKinnon emerged as the Chiefs' most productive, reliable running back in the postseason last year. His return to the Kansas City backfield is a potentially serious issue for Clyde Edwards-Helaire, who profiled as the team's best pass-catching RB before McKinnon re-signed. Ronald Jones remains the likely early-down back for Patrick Mahomes' offense. Recovered from a career-altering knee injury, McKinnon saw 48 touches of KC's three playoff contests, flashing playmaking ability as a pass catcher out of the backfield. Entering his age-30 season, he makes sense as a late-round flier in redraft formats.”
Certainly not news I’d want to see if I were a CEH shareholder.
Jones and McKinnon are JAGs. CEH might be too, but he has a lot less negative on tape than they do.
McKinnon is 30 and can never stay healthy, even in limited work. He may very well have been the most talented of the bunch at his best, but I can't see him being trusted to be anything more than insurance. He only played last year because everyone was hurt, and even then, he wasn't really any more impressive than CEH or Darrell Williams were. The Steelers by that point were maybe the worst defense in the NFL against RB's, and CEH was much more impressive against Buffalo.
Jones is being grossly overrated in my opinion. He's been mediocre to awful 3 of his 4 years in the league. Yes, his 2020 was pretty solid, but 2 different coaching staffs decided they wanted nothing to do with Jones as their starting RB in TB, I would be shocked if Reid did, and honestly, I'm not sure he's a bigger threat than Darrell Williams was. If he's 2020 Jones then yes, if he's any other version, than no.
To me CEH is still the RB to own here, and his hype has settled down to the point where he's being drafted as an RB3, which at that price point I'm cautiously on board. If McKinnon's return pushes him down to an RB4 price point, I'll be interested in him. I'm basically out on the other 2.
Ultimately, I see myself owing zero shares of this backfield, unless CEH comes at a discount.
Agreed and hard to forget Mckinnon getting more playing time in the playoffs then CEH did after he returned from his injury and looking like a more dynamic player in the passing game then CEH ever has. That was kind of a turning point for me on CEH.
I still think ROJO is at least even money to lead the team in carries but really we've all probably been overrating the Chief RB position since Hunt left. As a total team the RB's usually are in the 25 PPG range in PPR leagues, good but not great and that's a pie that's been getting shared by 2-3 RB's each week when they are healthy. We'll see if no Tryeek picks up the receptions for the RB's but not really counting on it or expecting any RB to be anything close to a feature back.
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candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
You guys mean this J McKinnon?
https://www.footballguys.com/player/id/McKiJe01&ref=s
He had 12 rushes and 13 receptions.
https://www.footballguys.com/player/id/McKiJe01&ref=s
He had 12 rushes and 13 receptions.
candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
I was all over D Williams last year in rounds 12+. That worked out pretty well for me.
I’m also going to fade this group, until of course they become a value via ADP and CEH would be the guy that I would like then.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
On this point I could not disagree more. Having watched a ton of RoJo, he is most certainly not a JAG between the tackles.
I have RoJo as a legacy player (drafted him in our inaugural draft) but I've been pretty realistic with him over the years. He has a great chance at early down work and GL/short yardage. His skill set is unique among the KC backs.
McKinnon / CEH will be fighting for the COP & reception work - and as @menobrown pointed out, McKinnon was more effective than CEH at both when it counted, so I'm seeing this signing as really bad news for CEH.
Now, will I be targeting any of them in redraft? Probably not. But If RoJo is cheap, I'd consider taking a flier on him as a depth pick. I can't see any price I'd want CEH at this point.
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candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
Playoff performances, they always have hard time to be sustained the following season.
What are your thoughts on McKinnon. Give me a ceiling and when you would pull the string for him? I know you like RoJo too, so obviously you are quite low on CEH.
It’s quite possible that CEH amounts to nothing this year, I don’t deny this.
rockaction
Footballguy
I actually don't see this as that bad for CEH. If he's not good, then he's just not good, and he won't get volume regardless of who they bring in, unless we expected them to be completely incompetent about bringing people in. If he can't beat out a 31 year-old McKinnon, then it's just not in the cards for him. But there could have been a more significant acquisition in the offseason, which would have made CEH's fantasy situation worse than before.
It depends on whether or not we saw a truly healthy CEH last year. He claims no. If he's a different player, he should beat out McKinnon for touches at this point in their careers. If he can't, well, he just stinks and wouldn't have beaten out a host of guys. This signing is just organizational depth if you ask me.
It depends on whether or not we saw a truly healthy CEH last year. He claims no. If he's a different player, he should beat out McKinnon for touches at this point in their careers. If he can't, well, he just stinks and wouldn't have beaten out a host of guys. This signing is just organizational depth if you ask me.
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candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
And this is how I feel about it as well. I am open to the thought that he wasn’t fully healthy last season. But if he can’t beat out that elder RB for some significant playing time, then it probably will never happen for him.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
While this is a fair point, one could argue they already did when they added RoJo in free agency.
That presumably stripped CEH of early down work.
So now McKinnon potentially takes the top off of a receiving role.
I agree, it’s not the worst thing they could have done, but does seem like icing on the devaluation cake this off-season has been for CEH.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, but I'm not as sanguine as you are about RoJo. I don't think he necessarily usurps the early-down role. I hope he does. I roster him. But I didn't see anything last year that led me to believe his head or heart was in the game. He is talented, that's for sure. But you've really got to want it to play running back in pro football. I'm not sure he does. Time will tell.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I believe you’re going to be pleasantly surprised then, because RoJo is plenty hungry from interviews I’ve seen/read.
Last year he was behind Lenny, & playing for a coach who’s seemingly hated him from the jump.
The last time RoJo had opportunity, he turned it into a 5.1 YPC average, with 978 Ru & 165 Receiving with 8 total TD in just 13 starts. That was effectively 1 season ago (2, once 2022 starts)
To say he’s the favorite for early down work in KC seems like a dramatic understatement.
The Chiefs have been desperate for a short yardage back since Hunt left. Reid identified a need and filled it.
Agreed playoff performances are difficult to repeat but what I can't get past is that McKinnon looked looked more electric then I ever saw CEH look in the passing game. And fact he was playing above him in the pecking order really irked me. The counter argument to that was CEH had missed a few weeks and one might argue had some health/conditioning issues but he sure looked healthy to me, I just think the team opted to continue to go more with McKinnon. In the playoffs when it's money time that they trusted McKinnon more is hard for me to get past.
Yes I do think ROJO is the best runner on the team but also the most rudimentary in the passing game. He's been running for about the same ypc as CEH the past few years but has been seeing about 3 times the amount of 8 man boxes as CEH. I did like ROJO more in that brief time he joined them before they traded Hill. Defenses just did not fear being able to contain CEH even when they played shell coverage and showed him light fronts. They won't get as much of those looks any longer but I still think CEH's inability to threaten defenses is an issue and something ROJO can do a lot better as a runner and McKinnon as a receiver. That concerns me greatly for CEH.
However I'm not here stumping for Mckinnon or ROJO. I already said ROJO was what I viewed as the best runner but least skilled in the passing game. McKinnons' probably the exact opposite and CEH is like the middle man for all of that. I think it's a RBBC splitting up what has historically been around a 25 PPG PPR pie. I think when all 3 are healthy the high point RB will be more in the 12'ish PPG range and if one gets hurt it's most likely two split duties. I'll have CEH and ROJO in my same tier and McKinnon lower but someone I view as worth a last round or so pick. Between CEH and ROJO if their prices were straight up equal I'd lean CEH by a hair, but with ROJO going several rounds later I'd rather pay that for him and view McKinnon as less of a threat to his role then CEH's.
In summary I'm good paying the current price for ROJO and McKinnon because that current price is right now like a mid 9th and last pick or so of the draft. CEH's for his cost of around a 6th is the worst investment to me and I'd say that if he was going 2 round later.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Seems like a pretty fair assessment all around.
Given the bolded, I’d likely go RoJo by a hair. I realize a receiving back in PPR is the historically better play, so I don’t fault you for your choice in that hypothetical. For my preference, the Chiefs have a prolific offense, which I expect to continue to be the case even post Hill. For one, without Hill, and with a RB that can pick up chunks at a time, I suspect they may be a bit more run balanced. And for another, there may be quite a few gimme TDs for RoJo as I expect the Chiefs to be in frequent goal-to-go situations.
But overall I’m not too far off from your position, except I wouldn’t draft CEH because I’m thoroughly unimpressed by CEH.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
This is beginning to sound a bit like the Mike Davis conversation from last year. But his name is cooler and he’s on a better offense but has stiffer competition.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Boone22
Footballguy
My biggest concern with all of this is Andy Reid. If you go back and look at his KC coaching before CEH he swapped out RBs like most people change their underwear. As an owner of ROJO and McKinnon this has me concerned. It wouldn’t surprise me is Isiah Pacheco is starting by mid-year and Gore is subbing in for him 
In what way? The entire Davis argument last year, was that he was all they had. KC has 3 guys as good as Davis. Were people high on Mike Davis a year ago? He didn't go in the top-25 RBs of any draft I was in last year.
Right now(and McKinnon re-signing hasn't been factored in I guess, though this was an expected move IMO) CEH is going RB30, Jones is going RB36, and McKinnon is going RB76(which likely rises) I'm not super into any of them at those prices, but if CEH gets cheaper, I'll have some interest. I stress heavily, that I'm not a huge fan of his at all, but I think he was pretty solid as a rookie, and he has the (multiple) injury excuse for last year. I don't think its any lock that Jones has the inside track on early down work, or that McKinnon does on 3rd down work. This is likely a hot hand backfield.
I think Jones supporters are giving way too much credit to his 2020 YPC, which is significantly bumped up by one play, a 98 yard TD run. Take that away and he'd down to 4.6 YPC. Jones career average is basically the same as CEH's(lower without that 1 run) and this idea that Jones has had tougher sledding, and more 8-man boxes is silly. What defense is using 8-man boxes against Tom Brady? Hell, Tampa has been a better offense than KC each of the last 2 seasons, by both points and yards.
I get being burned on CEH. He was a bad pick by KC, no RB should be a 1st rounder unless they are a generational talent these days, arguably nobody since Barkley(and #2 overall was way too high) should have been. But I almost think CEH is being double punished for it. I wonder if people wouldn't be as down on him if he were the 3rd rounder I thought he should have been?
I'm fully expecting a RBBC here, hot hand, like I said. That said, we know McKinnon can't handle a large workload, we know Jones can't be a passing game option. Side note, my favorite Jones play was him catching a TD pass against Chicago, the Brady forgot what down it was game, the refs ruling it incomplete, and Jones not even arguing or asking for a challenge, followed by replay clearly showing it was a catch, but no challenge because it was Jones, so of course he screwed it up. Arians thought that little of Jones that he just assumed he screwed it up, and Arians isn't the only coach who felt that way about Jones, Dirk Koetter decided Peyton Barber and Jacquizz Rodgers were better options as a rookie, and while nobody is saying Koetter is a good coach, Arians is, and he came to a similar conclusion that this isn't the guy. I wonder if Jones would have played even less last year, if Giovani Bernard had stayed healthy?
If anybody rises to being the main starter, I think its gonna be CEH, he's the best combo of skills in my eyes. He's gotta stay healthy, and I don't trust him by any means, but the other guys have proven they can't be the guy, jury is still out with CEH, even if its likely he can't either.
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
@travdoggThe gist of the Mike Davis comparison is that RBs that aren’t special can’t keep competition from stealing touches or front offices from making moves to supplant them.
Maybe CEH is a better runner than he looks like to my eyes. Maybe he has good vision, patience, decision making etc..I can’t tell. When I watch him, he looks to me like he doesn’t run with power, explosiveness or great elusiveness. Maybe RoJo looks flashier but is constantly making decisions that coaches don’t like? I can’t tell but he looks more powerful and explosive than CEH. Hell, Gore might get goal line work this year and Pacheco is more explosive and bigger.
I don’t know. If you really need a 11.8 ppr RB, knock yourself out. In redraft those guys are on the wire once churn starts.
Hopefully he’s recovered and back to being better, I just don’t see it. If he’s there in the 8th though I can see the justification…
Maybe CEH is a better runner than he looks like to my eyes. Maybe he has good vision, patience, decision making etc..I can’t tell. When I watch him, he looks to me like he doesn’t run with power, explosiveness or great elusiveness. Maybe RoJo looks flashier but is constantly making decisions that coaches don’t like? I can’t tell but he looks more powerful and explosive than CEH. Hell, Gore might get goal line work this year and Pacheco is more explosive and bigger.
I don’t know. If you really need a 11.8 ppr RB, knock yourself out. In redraft those guys are on the wire once churn starts.
Hopefully he’s recovered and back to being better, I just don’t see it. If he’s there in the 8th though I can see the justification…
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Re the bolded, based on everything I’ve seen from CEH, I just don’t see it.
To date, CEH is a plodder. He struggles to find holes, runs up the backs of his OL, and way too often he tries to bounce outside, which he lacks the speed to do.’so he ends up running 10 yards to gain 1. He frequently gets caught from behind by LB and even some faster DL. He lacks top end speed and he lacks burst. Dude’s never busted a run longer than 31 yards on 300 NFL rushes. His longest career reception is 29 yards, so even in space he doesn’t capitalize. The break-away runs have been nonexistent, even when the OL gives him a gap.
i know he was hurt last year. But even when healthy I’ve never been impressed. He lacks power, collapses on contact and rarely makes guys miss like a Montgomery.
as such, I’m not convinced he has the best combo of skills. From what I’ve seen he is kind of mediocre at just about every skill.
He’s a fluid receiver out of the backfield - that’s it. That’s his skill. But because he lacks evasiveness, burst, wiggle l, vision, and top end speed, he hasn’t done much with even that. And they don’t trust him at the stripe, because he lacks power.
I know people Are holding out hope. I know It’s only been 2 seasons. And I’ll eat my crow if I’m wrong, but to this point CEH is looking like a bust of a pick for the Chiefs.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
see, I didn’t read your post before posting, yet commented on these same attributes, or lack thereof.
So no, I don’t think he does have those elements to his game. He has very few redeeming qualities.
Re: RoJo, he was never a fumbler in college, Arians had a zero tolerance policy. He’s also not great in pass pro, and as you &’others have mentioned, he’s not a great receiver.
A coaching change is going to do him a world of good.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It’s probably too late to get much from him now - he’s been a huge disappointment and everyone else is seeing them adding what have been productive RBs into the mix.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Looking back on this thread it's embarrassing how much I liked him coming into the league.
However, I'm pleased with the pivot away after actually seeing him on an NFL field.
Moral of the story, I think...trust your eyes once the guy gets into the league. Waiting for guys to "turn the corner" is not a winning strategy.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
after his 2 good games early last year I was offered a 1st for him & immediately accepted.
Best trade I’ve ever made.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
I'm on day 5 with covid (for the first time in this 2.5 year saga) and am taking the new med that they're giving to people. I am considered high risk plus I was in the middle of a steroid run for a back problem when I got covid, which means my immune system was suppressed. Long story short, this stuff they're giving people gives you a metallic chalky taste in your mouth. Like *really* chalky. It is called dysgeusia and it is disgusting. I know you all wanted to read this but my point is that as a CEH truther this McKinnon news is comparable.
rockaction
Footballguy
Dude, I hope you're not feeling too poorly and that the new meds help. I sincerely hope this goes away and doesn't cause you any long-term trouble. Peace.
rockaction
Footballguy
It's time, Clyde. I mean, it's not for long in the NFL if the performance doesn't change appreciably. Feel for the guy. Hope he regains whatever it was that made him so successful at LSU that year.
Jesus, just in typing this out is why I've always been out on this guy. One year. Slow. Everything pointed to bust. All systems might have busted in the first round for KC, who thought they were smarter than everybody else and let D'Andre Swift fall to the Lions and Jonathan Taylor fall to the Colts.
Ay de mi. Either of those guys and you're looking at a different story here. Maybe not Swift so much. He's got his own issues. But Taylor for sure.
TripItUp
Footballguy
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Could argue the next four after those two would have been a better choice (Akers, Dobbins, Dillon, Gibson). Maybe we haven’t seen the best of CEH, but time is running out for him to show it.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yeah, I was strictly thinking fantasy value and that the two mentioned are by far and away tops in the game for dynasty value.
All of those guys have cases for being better football players than CEH, for sure. In fact, I had CEH as the sixth-best back and was stunned (though menobrown told me) when he went in the first round of the NFL Draft.
Killed me that the Chiefs did that, because I had the 1.01 and then traded out of it to move down and take...Henry Ruggs. That move has set my team back quite a bit. I should have just listened to the experts and taken Jonathan Taylor with his college and athletic profile. No-brainer in retrospect and I won't make that mistake again. I'm savvier now.
