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RB Leonard Fournette, FA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Just my memory of the outlets I frequented at the time. Did you see it the other way? I don't remember much criticism.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I remember having deep debates on Trent, but it could have been outside this board.
(perhaps it is selective memory, as it is one of the few calls I've made right recently!)
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I recall him being just about as universally praised as a prospect can be. You don't remember it that way? I'll have to dig up the thread.
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voiceofunreason
Footballguy
So if average backs failed....it was a below average situation. So why would anyone be happy with that?
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Looking back at old posts--the guy was a god around these parts. I'm not saying that there wasn't a very small minority with questions, but it was a very small minority. The amatuer/dynasty community was on board in a way that it's not with Fournette. Perhaps my memory is bad and my sample size is small. Please point me to the evidence if so.FreeBaGeL said:
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voiceofunreason
Footballguy
I didn't like Richardson and got roasted on dlf. I was one of the very few. He was pretty much a HoFer before he played.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
There were a TON of AP detractors.FreeBaGeL said:
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Reggie Bush had very few detractors from what i remember.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Lots. I remember pretty big arguments there. Size, bouncing outside too much, etc.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Gandalf
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
What do either of these have to do with whether or not he had detractors?
He was a unique and polarizing player. Some people were very high on him. Many were very low. I remember because I was one of the ones that was very high on him and I had plenty of people to argue with.
He had by far more detractors than someone like Trent who was a more typical RB.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
If we're ranking these guys on who had the highest percentage of detractors, just off the top of my head and totally unscientific, I would say Bush had the most detractors, Peterson the second most, Fournette third, and Richardson the fewest.
That's to speak nothing of the people that weren't detractors (IE people that liked Peterson were generally much higher on him than the people that like Fournette are on him), just in terms of how much doubt there was around them.
That's to speak nothing of the people that weren't detractors (IE people that liked Peterson were generally much higher on him than the people that like Fournette are on him), just in terms of how much doubt there was around them.
I remember clearly touting LenDale White as the better back out of USC that year. I get some wrong now and then. Definitely questioned Bush's viability in the NFL.
Gandalf
Footballguy
Nothing. Never said he didn't also have detractor. I was merely agreeing that there was a lot of hype surrounding Bush the year he came out. I had the 1.01 that year and remember getting crazy offers.
Borden
Footballguy
Gandalf
Footballguy
Not that what I did during the 2006 draft is very relevant but I will answer the question. I kept the 1.01. In hindsight I should have taken the offers but I remember keeping the pick. I tended to way over value rookies then. It was a long time ago...
Borden
Footballguy
LOL, there was a media, fan and internet ####storm for months to years when Houston passed (correctly) on Bush. Multiple sports analysts called it the biggest mistake in draft history. Even late night comedians and people who don't follow football were making fun of Houston for such a "dumb" move. He was routinely drafted in the first round of initial dynasty drafts and called the second coming of Gale Sayers on a regular basis. He was second only to Peyton Manning in endorsement deals and 2nd only to Tomlinson in jersey sales... as a rookie! There may have been some doubters (mostly Texans fans), but lots of detractors my foot. There has never been a more hyped RB in the history of the draft.
Peterson had a ton of detractors due to his ankle injury during his sophomore season and the broken collarbone his junior year. There was even a long thread on here where some people were arguing you should take Lynch ahead of him. Plus many folks were burned on Bush the year before as even though he was a PPR darling, the cracks in his game had become readily apparent in the NFL (dancing in the backfield, couldn't relegate Duece to the bench, an inability to run between the tackles, many, many negative yardage plays, etc.)
Peterson had a ton of detractors due to his ankle injury during his sophomore season and the broken collarbone his junior year. There was even a long thread on here where some people were arguing you should take Lynch ahead of him. Plus many folks were burned on Bush the year before as even though he was a PPR darling, the cracks in his game had become readily apparent in the NFL (dancing in the backfield, couldn't relegate Duece to the bench, an inability to run between the tackles, many, many negative yardage plays, etc.)
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's been covered already. The hype around Bush was extreme, and the people that liked him liked him a lot. But that doesn't mean in pure numbers he didn't have a good amount of detractors compared to a lot of other guys. His thread on FBG was a lot more divisive than this one for Fournette. It wasn't just a bunch of guys confirming for each other how great he was going to be. Yeah, the people that were high on him were higher on him than they are on Fournette. But there were at least as many people (and really, more) saying his game wouldn't translate to the NFL as there are for Fournette. There was just as much arguing about Bush in his thread as there was about Peterson in his thread.
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Maybe if they hadn't of pruned the boards of those old threads we could actually point to them with real facts instead of one person arguing a recollection vs another person's recollection.
However, Reggie Bush was the most hyped RB in draft history, there was a giant circus for years around the Texans passing on him because of how can't miss and how amazing a prospect he was... so I'm still calling
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm not sure why some people are confused with the concept of "detractors". Just because some player was over-hyped and most of the public fell in love with him doesn't mean that every single person thought he was a can't miss prospects and that no one spoke up in opposition.
Heck I'm sure there's some men out there that will tell you that Thanksgiving Day sucks, even though the rest of us will think it's insanity that anyone can't like a holiday that involves eating like a mad man, boozing it up and watching three football games.
Heck I'm sure there's some men out there that will tell you that Thanksgiving Day sucks, even though the rest of us will think it's insanity that anyone can't like a holiday that involves eating like a mad man, boozing it up and watching three football games.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Like Dr Octopus said, having more hype doesn't necessarily mean you have less detractors. A guy like Bush (and Peterson due to his injuries and height) is exactly the kind of unique (at the time) player with people on one side saying that's never going to work in the NFL and people on the other side saying it's going to revolutionize it.Maybe if they hadn't of pruned the boards of those old threads we could actually point to them with real facts instead of one person arguing a recollection vs another person's recollection.
However, Reggie Bush was the most hyped RB in draft history, there was a giant circus for years around the Texans passing on him because of how can't miss and how amazing a prospect he was... so I'm still calling
To better illustrate it, using totally arbitrary numbers but just to make the point, if you ask 10 people what they think of Fournette maybe 2 think he'll be a total bust, 6 think he'll be pretty good, and 2 think he'll be elite. If you asked 10 about Bush maybe 4 would have thought he'd be a total bust, 4 would have thought he'd be elite, and 2 would have thought he's going to be some new tier above elite that we couldn't even have fathomed yet.
More hype, but more detractors.
You're right that it sucks about the prune. I actually spent 10 minutes looking for the thread this morning before I remembered it. All I can tell you about my own recollection is that I was one of the guys overhyping Bush and I remember banging away at my keyboard arguing with people about it endlessly in that thread. My memory isn't what it used to be but I'm pretty sure we weren't arguing over who liked him more
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steelers1080
Footballguy
Does anyone have any good compilation videos of his runs? Trying to get a compilation of runs, not just a highlight reel. Gotta see him at his worst as well. (Same with other top backs if there's a resource for that)
thatguy
Footballguy
draftbreakdown.com
Here is the tape on Fournette:
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/leonard-fournette/
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Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I've watched a good amount of Fournette tape but it's been a couple of months, so I just watched some more. I'm sorry folks but he's not special. He's just not. He needs a runway to be effective. If his O-line doesn't create a lane or if he has to make sharp cuts, he's a 2 yard RB. He cannot think quick on his feet. If he's not mentally prepared to make a cut a second or two in advance, he's going to trip over his own feet. He's good at subtle cuts while running at full speed but that's not really saying much. I think people so bad want that bruising, fast, dominant RB that they're forcing their will on Fournette and I'm not buying. This guy will be an ok NFL RB probably but nothing special. I'd draft McCaffrey, Mixon, Cook and Kamara all ahead of him easily. He's barely in my top 10 at this point. Seriously. And some people are throwing out the AP comp?? Please.
Gandalf
Footballguy
Draft him with confidence.So one of the very rare years I have been able to trade up and get what turns out to be the 1.01 and I don't get my Ezekiel Elliot equivalent? Grr...
CabinFever
Footballguy
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
One of the main things i came away with watching Fournette is how bad the passing game around him was.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Plenty of candidates. Pass on him with confidence.So one of the very rare years I have been able to trade up and get what turns out to be the 1.01 and I don't get my Ezekiel Elliot equivalent? Grr...
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
I'm not saying he'll be that bad. I'm just saying he's nothing special. He's big and fast but not much else.
Borden
Footballguy
I'm not one of the "can't miss!" guys on Fournette but some of the criticisms are a little harsh. Vs Bama he's facing a truly elite defense and a stacked box. I don't know the exact numbers but I'd put a lot of money on Fournette facing more defenders in the box than any other top RB in the draft. It's probably a significantly higher amount too.
Yeah, judge him on one bad game against the best defense in the country. Go back and judge Payton Manning on his games against Florida too.
A point often overlooked by his detractors. LSUs passing attack was God awful. Teams stacked the box and dared them to throw.
CabinFever
Footballguy
A previous person asked for video "of his worst as well" not just highlights. So I thought the Alabama game was a good point of reference. Did he look special to you in that game? No. Does it mean he won't be special in the NFL, absolutely not, but I won't call someone crazy for watching that game and wondering what all the hype is about...petekrum said:
Man, EVERY player in the league had a game or multiple games in college where they were beat down or looked awful.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I think its also important to look at what he did his Sophomore season when he really broke out and wonder if due to injuries we didn't see that guy this year. MANY NFL players turn out to more closely resemble the player they were earlier in college than the more disappointing version they were in their final years. Can't ignore this. Alshon Jeffrey and Stefon Diggs are guys this applies to. I'm sure there are other obvious examples I'm just not thinking of. As a Redskins fan this applied very strongly to our stud LT, Trent Williams, who was a freak the year before he came out but was plagued with injuries and questions about his motivation his last year in college, they still took him in the top-5 but he was dinged heavily for it in the media. And it turns out he's been much closer to that stud Sophomore. NFL teams don't just watch film from the most recent year for a reason, and Fournette was more dynamic the year before this.
I've been having this thought about Fournette lately and wondered if anyone else had the same.
I'd like to preface this by saying that Fournette might be a lot better in the passing game than we realize but it's fair to at least speculate he might be more of what is known as a conventional two down back. The other issue some have with him is he might struggle running out a shotgun formation.
So you might have guessed were I'm heading with this post. Adrian Peterson. We get caught in wanting to project these incoming stud RB's as the next AP but I'm sitting around watching Peterson seemingly struggle to land a job. And yes I know he's 32 and coming off horrendous season but he barely played last year so when people conclude he's lost it based on last season I wholeheartedly reject that opinion. The age in an issue and maybe he's truly lost a lot from 2015 till now but that was the last time he was healthy for a season and he rolled to close to 1500 rushing yards in an offense no one is confusing for being a juggernaut. Maybe he's lost something since that time? Quite possible and I sure would not pay him a lot or guarantee much if any pay past the 2017 season but the reasons I keep hearing this guy is struggling to land a job is not out of fear he lost his ability but because his style of play is not a fit for anyone. The reasons are the same exact two primary concerns as Fournette, possible negative in passing game and need to not run out of shotgun which to a degree ties into the first negative.
So this for me is somewhat of a concern for fantasy but I'm also finding a hard time wrapping my head around it from an NFL perspective. You rarely see Fournette get mocked out of the top 10 and you often see 3 landing spots for him. So how on earth is a guy who has similar questions about his game as an all-time great get picked as a top 10 pick but no one wants the all-time great when he's just sitting there for the taking?
I'd like to preface this by saying that Fournette might be a lot better in the passing game than we realize but it's fair to at least speculate he might be more of what is known as a conventional two down back. The other issue some have with him is he might struggle running out a shotgun formation.
So you might have guessed were I'm heading with this post. Adrian Peterson. We get caught in wanting to project these incoming stud RB's as the next AP but I'm sitting around watching Peterson seemingly struggle to land a job. And yes I know he's 32 and coming off horrendous season but he barely played last year so when people conclude he's lost it based on last season I wholeheartedly reject that opinion. The age in an issue and maybe he's truly lost a lot from 2015 till now but that was the last time he was healthy for a season and he rolled to close to 1500 rushing yards in an offense no one is confusing for being a juggernaut. Maybe he's lost something since that time? Quite possible and I sure would not pay him a lot or guarantee much if any pay past the 2017 season but the reasons I keep hearing this guy is struggling to land a job is not out of fear he lost his ability but because his style of play is not a fit for anyone. The reasons are the same exact two primary concerns as Fournette, possible negative in passing game and need to not run out of shotgun which to a degree ties into the first negative.
So this for me is somewhat of a concern for fantasy but I'm also finding a hard time wrapping my head around it from an NFL perspective. You rarely see Fournette get mocked out of the top 10 and you often see 3 landing spots for him. So how on earth is a guy who has similar questions about his game as an all-time great get picked as a top 10 pick but no one wants the all-time great when he's just sitting there for the taking?
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I imagine no one wants to pay him what he wants. A guy like AP isn't going to play for vet min or probably even Latavius Murray's contract.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Yet a 32 versatile RB in Woodhead who fits the modern game more was the first or second RB to sign this FA period. I think the Raiders interest in 32 year old Lynch is legit and 33 year old Marshall got quickly snapped and yes he's a WR and ages better but he did not look last season.
We can never know this stuff for sure but I'm really not getting a sense money is the issue but again hard for us to know these things for sure.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Is this schtick? Woodhead is making $1m this year. If he were asking for Peterson money he'd be laughed out of the league.
I think your point is fair and there is probably some truth to teams being less enthused about 2 down backs than they used to be, but you're taking it to absurd levels.
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Borden
Footballguy
Fournette is younger and has potential to be better in the passing game.
LONG Answer:
I get what you're saying so I won't go too much into the direct comparison. I agree that Fournette maybe shouldn't be a Top 10 pick and we will see how the NFL (or at least one team) actually views him on draft day.
As to why he is being mocked this high, potential. He has a lot of college tape that looks like he's playing against high school kids. We (especially myself) are usually reluctant to claim any player as the next HoF player but they have to come from somewhere. He's young, has great production/stats and has a highlight tape like this. Everyone here can be a scout and tell you what they see (Pros and Cons) but figuring out how to properly weight and value traits is the difficult part.
But your post was referring more to his style. As far as the passing game, there's 3 ways for a back to be effective on a passing down. Play action, pass pro and catching/RAC. We can assume that play action he can do fine (because anyone can do that). Pass Pro for a RB breaks down into, in order of importance, 1) Finding your block 2) Willingness to block 3a) Technique of block 3b) Strength to hold their ground. LF already displays 2 and 3b. And 3b can mask 3a. Number 1, will likely take a bit for any rookie RB because NFL defensive schemes are so much better. Out of the gate, he should have, at least, the physical tools and mindset to Pass Pro.
Into the crux of the whole discussion, catching/RAC. I don't even put route running in there because of how rare a running back ever needs to an actual route. Catching is somewhat discounted because of the type of route and pass (usually QBs don't need to throw lasers to fit it between defenders on RB routes) but it's still somewhat important for obvious reasons. Run After the Catch is almost 100% the reason (IMO) for a 3DB. The smaller and shiftier backs are better in space, which is where they get the ball on a pass. However, it doesn't mean that Fournette can't be a menace if he gets enough space to get moving. I think most backs can do this and it's more so scheme/coach preferences that decide a backs passing useage. Even if LF isn't a superstar in elusiveness and has to be subbed out in 3rd and long that's give his team a stud player on, what, 90% of their snaps? That's pretty good and eventually every back needs a rest. If they believe he is special as a runner, the rest is almost just extra. Almost.
Sorry for the gigantic reply. And I said some obvious things on the way to my point. I'm assuming that you already knew most of what I said but didn't want to be misunderstood and have to come back and wreck the actual discussion. It's an interesting topic that I enjoy. I look forward to more discussion.
As to why he is being mocked this high, potential. He has a lot of college tape that looks like he's playing against high school kids. We (especially myself) are usually reluctant to claim any player as the next HoF player but they have to come from somewhere. He's young, has great production/stats and has a highlight tape like this. Everyone here can be a scout and tell you what they see (Pros and Cons) but figuring out how to properly weight and value traits is the difficult part.
But your post was referring more to his style. As far as the passing game, there's 3 ways for a back to be effective on a passing down. Play action, pass pro and catching/RAC. We can assume that play action he can do fine (because anyone can do that). Pass Pro for a RB breaks down into, in order of importance, 1) Finding your block 2) Willingness to block 3a) Technique of block 3b) Strength to hold their ground. LF already displays 2 and 3b. And 3b can mask 3a. Number 1, will likely take a bit for any rookie RB because NFL defensive schemes are so much better. Out of the gate, he should have, at least, the physical tools and mindset to Pass Pro.
Into the crux of the whole discussion, catching/RAC. I don't even put route running in there because of how rare a running back ever needs to an actual route. Catching is somewhat discounted because of the type of route and pass (usually QBs don't need to throw lasers to fit it between defenders on RB routes) but it's still somewhat important for obvious reasons. Run After the Catch is almost 100% the reason (IMO) for a 3DB. The smaller and shiftier backs are better in space, which is where they get the ball on a pass. However, it doesn't mean that Fournette can't be a menace if he gets enough space to get moving. I think most backs can do this and it's more so scheme/coach preferences that decide a backs passing useage. Even if LF isn't a superstar in elusiveness and has to be subbed out in 3rd and long that's give his team a stud player on, what, 90% of their snaps? That's pretty good and eventually every back needs a rest. If they believe he is special as a runner, the rest is almost just extra. Almost.
Sorry for the gigantic reply. And I said some obvious things on the way to my point. I'm assuming that you already knew most of what I said but didn't want to be misunderstood and have to come back and wreck the actual discussion. It's an interesting topic that I enjoy. I look forward to more discussion.
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No and I find it annoying when people say things like I'm arguing to argue or schtick, I don't have time for that nonsense and you are wrong on Woodhead. He got a little over $3M guaranteed, his base is the only thing that is $1M and basically the contract is set up so he'll make about $3M every year they want to keep him.
You have no idea what kind of money Peterson is asking, none.
