What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

RB Najee Harris, LAC (2 Viewers)

Biabreakable said:
I do think Harris is a good RB and he will have a lot of opportunity with the Steelers which will be great for fantasy.

Its perhaps splitting hairs as far as which RB is more valuable in fantasy.

I just think ETN is the more talented RB.
Click to expand...
Yeah I’m not saying Harris is a bust or anything. I just think it’s bizarre that Harris has been the consensus almost unquestioned RB1 through this whole draft process while ETN has been questioned a ton very step of the way. If you just looked at the numbers around these guys, you would assume it was the other way around.

 
Ilov80s said:
Same. I don’t fault anyone for grinding the film and just thinking Harris is better. That’s actually the normal view now. It’s just every objective measure says ETN is better. Maybe someone could argue size but is there any data that says 6’1” 232 produces better outcomes  than 5’10” 215? ETN’s BMI is actually slightly higher. Every advantage people are having Najee has is based on something subjective (better footwork, better vision, in better shape, etc). 
Click to expand...
What measures? Why is saying Najee is better at something labeled  subjective  but if you say ETN is better at something it's objective?

Ilov80s said:
Yeah I’m not saying Harris is a bust or anything. I just think it’s bizarre that Harris has been the consensus almost unquestioned RB1 through this whole draft process while ETN has been questioned a ton very step of the way. If you just looked at the numbers around these guys, you would assume it was the other way around.
Click to expand...
What numbers?

 
ETN is younger. Produced more at a younger age. Has more rushing yards in his career. More receptions in his career. More receiving yards in his career. Higher yards per carry. Higher yards per reception. More TDs. Najee’s best yard per touch season would have been ETN’s worst. ETN has a higher BMI. While this isn’t objective since Harris refused to test but I think all agree ETN is faster and has more burst. If you are comping based on age and college production, ETN has better comps. I will say Najee scored more TDs in a singlE season. I don’t think TDs correlates to NFL production like receptions do but could be wrong.

Saying Harris has better vision or contact balance is subjective though and those kind of film areas are where I hear people like Najee better. I think someone even posted here that PFF had ETN blowing Harris away on yards after contact but I don’t have those numbers. Harris had a very good career. ETN has one of the best careers we’ve seen from a college RB in the last 20 years. 
 

Heres some interesting analytical reading
ETN

Harris

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think that by any objective analytical measure that is considered predictive of future failure or success, Etienne blew away Harris for their college career. Least that's what my Twitter seems to think. That's not to say Harris isn't going first most places and shouldn't be, but strictly based on collegiate production and not film or competition standards, if that was all you had to go on, Etienne would be considered the better back.

 
rockaction said:
I think that by any objective analytical measure that is considered predictive of future failure or success, Etienne blew away Harris for their college career. Least that's what my Twitter seems to think. That's not to say Harris isn't going first most places and shouldn't be, but strictly based on collegiate production and not film or competition standards, if that was all you had to go on, Etienne would be considered the better back.
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s all I am saying. I have Harris ranked right job there with ETN and Chase as my top tier. 

 
and I don’t even mean this as some fancy data based argument. Just basic college football history, Etienne was just a more successful college football player. Maybe I’m being too simplistic but my approach here is I don’t know that much honestly so I’ll just take the guy that was better in college. 

 
rockaction said:
No, not really. People are talking about objective statistical measurements in which Etienne was superior to Harris. Facts aren't negotiable, nor are they able to be shunted off as opinion.
Click to expand...
No they(you) are picking certain criteria to present as facts to back up their argument ETN is better.

I'll play.

Najee scored 31 fantasy points a game last year. That's better then ETN ever has. By this objective measure Harris is clearly better. This is a fact and not negotiable and anything else is a subjective opinion.

I don't care to play this game.

 
menobrown said:
No they(you) are picking certain criteria to present as facts to back up their argument ETN is better.

I'll play.

Najee scored 31 fantasy points a game last year. That's better then ETN ever has. By this objective measure Harris is clearly better. This is a fact and not negotiable and anything else is a subjective opinion.

I don't care to play this game.
Click to expand...
That's not what is happening at all. Suit yourself. This is really too many times from you to put up with. You take this stuff personally and then spit out bad faith ####.

 
menobrown said:
No they(you) are picking certain criteria to present as facts to back up their argument ETN is better.

I'll play.

Najee scored 31 fantasy points a game last year. That's better then ETN ever has. By this objective measure Harris is clearly better. This is a fact and not negotiable and anything else is a subjective opinion.

I don't care to play this game.
Click to expand...
How many criteria are enough? Because by my count this list is ten. 

Has more rushing yards in his career. More receptions in his career. More receiving yards in his career. Higher yards per carry. Higher yards per reception. More TDs. Najee’s best yard per touch season would have been ETN’s worst. ETN has a higher BMI. While this isn’t objective since Harris refused to test but I think all agree ETN is faster and has more burst.
Click to expand...
@Ilov80s did concede that Najee scored more TDs in a single season -  which would correlate to your argument.

Your reaction here is kind of strange. 

 
College dominator rating, more receptions, more reception yards, rushing yards at breakout ages that are predictive of performance, yards per carry in college. The list goes on. You name the stat besides touchdowns and Etienne was better than Harris in stats that aren't just measureable, but also highly correlated with success transitioning from college to the NFL. 

Is it a slam dunk he's better? No. And people expressly pointed that out to you. There's wiggle room. But if you look at analytical statistics seriously, there's almost a definitive case to be made for Etienne, which is not to say that he's a better back. I don't think anybody here argued for certain that he was, or stated it as fact. I think Harris might have a more successful professional fantasy career and when I had 1.01, it was Harris or Chase, with Etienne a distant third.

I see Andy has pointed this out upthread. I'm really more concerned about why the response was so personal. This has happened a bunch with you lately. I'm not sure I get it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Andy Dufresne said:
How many criteria are enough? Because by my count this list is ten. 

@Ilov80s did concede that Najee scored more TDs in a single season -  which would correlate to your argument.

Your reaction here is kind of strange. 
Click to expand...
And I can list out criteria for Najee. So? That's the whole point of what I'm saying, You can pick and choose criteria to suit your point. If people said things based on the criteria I believe is predictive or that matters to me ETN is clearly better that's all good. But it's simply not true to say things such  "any measurement" , "every measurement' and insinuation all the numbers are in ETN's favor. It's whatever critiera you want to choose, which is fine but all the number and all the measurements are not in ETN's favor.

 
Yes not literally every stat. You can point to TDs the last 2 years but ETN still has more TDs overall. I believe he’s the NCAA leader for consecutive games with a TD. He’s the ACC all time leading rusher. No power 5 conference player in the last 15 years has gotten to 6000 yards on less touches. I like Harris and also acknowledge that there’s a significant chance Etienne doesn’t pan out because that’s football. I just don’t understand why Harris has been put up as the bulletproof RB1 and Etienne has been knitpicked. 

 
menobrown said:
And I can list out criteria for Najee. So? That's the whole point of what I'm saying, You can pick and choose criteria to suit your point. If people said things based on the criteria I believe is predictive or that matters to me ETN is clearly better that's all good. But it's simply not true to say things such  "any measurement" , "every measurement' and insinuation all the numbers are in ETN's favor. It's whatever critiera you want to choose, which is fine but all the number and all the measurements are not in ETN's favor.
Click to expand...
But then that's not confusing fact with opinion. It's drawing conclusions based on a particular set of facts.

The things that @Ilov80s cited as subjective are that way by definition because they're not really quantifiable - "better footwork, better vision, in better shape, etc"

The criteria you believe might be more important to you. But considering a set of ALL reasonable stats, it does appear that the numbers favor Etienne - perhaps not 100%, but by a bunch. 

It's okay if you want to cut across the grain with that. But you asked "what numbers", were provided with a several of them, but still weren't satisfied. 

 
Ilov80s said:
 I just don’t understand why Harris has been put up as the bulletproof RB1 and Etienne has been knitpicked. 
Click to expand...
Before the draft I never got a sense what you outline here occurred. I know in most of my redrafts before the NFL draft Najee was going just a tad higher but it was close.

I think it was just landing spot which created what you say above, not a talent debate.

Speaking for myself if the teams who drafted them was switched I'd prefer ETN. There are things to like about both and nitipick with both as players I think the issue for most people, myself being one, is strong confidence that Najee will be a 3 down workhorse and some puzzlement over ETN's usage. I would not call anyone bulletproof but as we've often seen in fantasy volume ails a lot of things and my degree of confidence in Najee producing out of the gate is considerably higher. This is due again more to landing spot then talent, that again is what I think created what you are saying you don't understand.

 
menobrown said:
Before the draft I never got a sense what you outline here occurred. I know in most of my redrafts before the NFL draft Najee was going just a tad higher but it was close.

I think it was just landing spot which created what you say above, not a talent debate.

Speaking for myself if the teams who drafted them was switched I'd prefer ETN. There are things to like about both and nitipick with both as players I think the issue for most people, myself being one, is strong confidence that Najee will be a 3 down workhorse and some puzzlement over ETN's usage. I would not call anyone bulletproof but as we've often seen in fantasy volume ails a lot of things and my degree of confidence in Najee producing out of the gate is considerably higher. This is due again more to landing spot then talent, that again is what I think created what you are saying you don't understand.
Click to expand...
Fair, maybe it’s just my impressions or the people I follow on Twitter or podcasts I listen to but outside of a couple places I don’t recall almost anyone having ETN above Harris predraft and I saw a lot of people put Williams over ETN predraff as well. 

 
I get that the analytics favor Etienne. I've liked Harris more for dynasty since pre-draft despite that. Between the 2, Harris is the one that pretty much every coaching staff would look at and say, "yep, that's a work horse RB". And I believe he's got the skills to keep that role through his rookie contract once he gets it. 

That's super subjective, I know. But Etienne has always struck me as a guy who might get the CJ Spiller treatment with the wrong coaching staff.

 
rockaction said:
College dominator rating, more receptions, more reception yards, rushing yards at breakout ages that are predictive of performance, yards per carry in college. The list goes on. You name the stat besides touchdowns and Etienne was better than Harris in stats that aren't just measureable, but also highly correlated with success transitioning from college to the NFL. 

Is it a slam dunk he's better? No. And people expressly pointed that out to you. There's wiggle room. But if you look at analytical statistics seriously, there's almost a definitive case to be made for Etienne, which is not to say that he's a better back. I don't think anybody here argued for certain that he was, or stated it as fact. I think Harris might have a more successful professional fantasy career and when I had 1.01, it was Harris or Chase, with Etienne a distant third.

I see Andy has pointed this out upthread. I'm really more concerned about why the response was so personal. This has happened a bunch with you lately. I'm not sure I get it.
Click to expand...
I think some of what is missed in looking at these raw numbers is that ETN had the backfield more to himself while Najee shared over the years with Jacobs, Damien Harris, and Scarbrough.  He wasn't utilized with the volume so some of those stats don't translate as far as an apples to apples comparison for this exercise (deciding the better RB).  Bottom line they are close and I have no doubt with a worse landing spot for Harris and a better spot for ETN they could be flip flopped for fantasy purposes.  The bottom line it doesn't really matter who the better actual RB is.........it is more important which one will be utilized in a manner to maximize FF points (or at least that's why most of us are here discussing the issue).  

 
Gally said:
I think some of what is missed in looking at these raw numbers is that ETN had the backfield more to himself while Najee shared over the years with Jacobs, Damien Harris, and Scarbrough. 
Click to expand...
Exactly. Can anyone even name another RB on Clemson during ETN's time without looking it up? I could not.

Two NFL starting RB's left the team and Najee broke out. Could even argue he broke out before they left. This is why using total stats over their careers and breakout age just does not hold any water for me.

Nor does YPC when comping an SEC RB vs one facing ACC defenses.  I went ahead and looked up how many teams they faced in the same year for a better comp and going of just last two seasons they both faced LSU , A&M and South Carolina in 2019. In 2020 they both faced Ohio St and they both faced Notre Dame with ETN seeing them twice. This is SEC D's, Ohio ST and Notre Dame. 5/6 game sample size is not nearly enough but to me it's more accurate to compare them against similar high end comp they faced in same season then say ACC or Wofford.

Najee in his 5 games broke down to per game average: 16.6 carries/100 yards/6.02 per carry and 4 TD's

                                                                                          4.2 receptions/51.8 yards/12.3 per reception/5 TD's

                                                                                           30.2 fantasy points a game

ETN in his 6 games broke down to per game average:  14 carries/61 yards/ 4.35 per carry/ 5 TD's

                                                                                         4.5 receptions/ 43 yards/ 9.5 per reception/0 TD's

                                                                                          21 fantasy points a game.

Nothing here is meant to be considered conclusive. Najee had probably a better OL, Najee had good QB play and ETN arguably had better and it's just 5/6 games. A lot of nuance that without proper context just can't be measured by any single metric or stat.    

 
Steelers signed No. 24 overall pick RB Najee Harris to a four-year contract.

Harris (6’1/232) was a five-star high school recruit and four-year contributor under coach Nick Saban. He played behind Josh Jacobs early in his career before starting as a junior (1,224 yards and 13 TDs) and senior (1,466 yards and 26 TDs). He showcased three-down talent in each season, ultimately earning First-Team All-American and Heisman Finalist honors in 2020 after setting career highs in all receiving categories (43-425-4). Unlike many 230-pound backs, Harris exited college without much of an injury history, too. Harris will take on a massive role in his rookie season and could threaten RB1 numbers if Pittsburgh's offensive line doesn't fail him.

SOURCE: Tom Pelissero on Twitter

May 25, 2021, 2:01 PM ET
Click to expand...

 
Gally said:
I think some of what is missed in looking at these raw numbers is that ETN had the backfield more to himself while Najee shared over the years with Jacobs, Damien Harris, and Scarbrough.  He wasn't utilized with the volume so some of those stats don't translate as far as an apples to apples comparison for this exercise (deciding the better RB).  Bottom line they are close and I have no doubt with a worse landing spot for Harris and a better spot for ETN they could be flip flopped for fantasy purposes.  The bottom line it doesn't really matter who the better actual RB is.........it is more important which one will be utilized in a manner to maximize FF points (or at least that's why most of us are here discussing the issue).  
Click to expand...
Yeah that is part of my issue with Harris. He did not distinguish himself as more deserving of playing time than these other RB.

Now this is Alabama whos roster is packed with future NFL players. Jacobs was a 1st round pick but based on his performance I think he was over drafted by the Raiders. I like Damien Harris I think he is a solid RB. I don't think Najaie Harris is that much better than Damien Harris despite the difference in draft position invested in them. Bo Scarbrough isn't really worth mentioning but he got carries over Harris as well.

To me that is not a positive or an excuse the way you present it, but a wart on any evaluation of Harris that he could not distance himself from these other players more than he did.

 
Biabreakable said:
Yeah that is part of my issue with Harris. He did not distinguish himself as more deserving of playing time than these other RB.

Now this is Alabama whos roster is packed with future NFL players. Jacobs was a 1st round pick but based on his performance I think he was over drafted by the Raiders. I like Damien Harris I think he is a solid RB. I don't think Najaie Harris is that much better than Damien Harris despite the difference in draft position invested in them. Bo Scarbrough isn't really worth mentioning but he got carries over Harris as well.

To me that is not a positive or an excuse the way you present it, but a wart on any evaluation of Harris that he could not distance himself from these other players more than he did.
Click to expand...
My only point from the post is that when comparing career numbers between Harris and ETN it isn't really apples to apples because ETN had zero competition for touches and Harris competed with three guys that have played in the NFL to varying success.  Whether you think that it's a ding for Harris "because he couldn't separate" from them or not it is a reason why comparing career numbers isn't an apples to apples comparison.  ETN had no competition so of course he would get the ball more.

Now taking it as a negative that Harris couldn't distance himself in college from what proved to be NFL caliber RB's is a bit overstated IMO.  He didn't have to distinguish himself from those guys as Alabama shared the load because they could.  I don't take that as a negative to any of them.  It was the best thing for that college team.  They were all more than capable as college backs so why not keep everyone fresh?  Do you ding Kamara for the same thing?  He couldn't distinguish himself from the Alabama RB's so much he had to transfer.  Sometimes college play time at big time schools such as Alabama is not a true reflection of NFL success.  All this to say that I don't think Harris not distancing himself from Jacobs, Damian, and Bo is not a knock on him at all.

 
Ben Roethlisberger said RB Najee Harris is "going to be something to see" in 2021.

Roethlisberger said the first-round rookie out of Alabama is adjusting well to the NFL in what will likely be a workhorse season in Pittsburgh. "He doesn't seem lost. It's not too big for him," Roethlisberger said. "His head's not spinning. ... The most exciting part is once he gets it and it clicks and he goes full speed." Every indication is that the Steelers burned a first rounder on Harris to make him the featured back in their lackluster rushing attack, which last season had the lowest yardage total in the NFL. Probably Harris won't have to be efficient to prove valuable for fantasy purposes. By August, the rookie could be a consensus first round pick in 12-team leagues.

SOURCE: Brooke Pryor on Twitter 

Jun 1, 2021, 12:09 PM ET
Click to expand...

 
Faust said:
Why Najee Harris will break Franco Harris’ Steelers rookie rushing records
Click to expand...
That is a very low bar he is setting here and then he guesses that Harris will fall short of it even though Harris potentially gets 3 more games than Franco had.

This is the Steelers. They like to use one guy. If Harris is healthy he should have something like 250 rushing attempts and so I don't see how he wouldn't break Francos performance this year.

Bell sucked his rookie season compared to what he did after that. He only had 3.5 yards per carry. He lost weight and really changed a lot after that first season. Despite that Bell had 244 rushing attempts in 13 games his rookie year and I am expecting similar volume for Harris this season. 

 
Just drafted Harris at 2.5 in an FFPC start up with all FBG board members so I’m on board this train now. 

Ie. :black dot:

 
Ron Cook: All eyes are on NFL's vaccine holdouts

Excerpt:

Najee Harris made headlines during the weekend at Steelers training camp even before he had his first carry in pads. It was not a headline that he or the team welcomed.

Harris was photographed at practice wearing a yellow wristband, indicating that he has not started or completed the COVID-19 vaccination process. The NFL has ordered its teams to identify players who are not vaccinated, and the Steelers merely were following protocol with Harris’ yellow wristband.
Click to expand...

 
:rolleyes:  - I really cannot believe they are identifying the players that haven't been vaccinated.  This is some 1940's stuff.  That is all I will say, without getting too political.  

If you are going to go full mandate, fire the ones who aren't vaccinated and just rip the bandaid off.  The NFL and other major sports have not done a great job of separating themselves from the blurred lines of politics and entertainment. 

 
TVT 0 N S T A said:
:rolleyes:  - I really cannot believe they are identifying the players that haven't been vaccinated.  This is some 1940's stuff.  That is all I will say, without getting too political.  

If you are going to go full mandate, fire the ones who aren't vaccinated and just rip the bandaid off.  The NFL and other major sports have not done a great job of separating themselves from the blurred lines of politics and entertainment. 
Click to expand...
You didn't succeed in that.

 
TVT 0 N S T A said:
:rolleyes:  - I really cannot believe they are identifying the players that haven't been vaccinated.  This is some 1940's stuff.  That is all I will say, without getting too political.  

If you are going to go full mandate, fire the ones who aren't vaccinated and just rip the bandaid off.  The NFL and other major sports have not done a great job of separating themselves from the blurred lines of politics and entertainment. 
Click to expand...
The NFL is not interested in politics, unless we're counting capitalism as a political viewpoint.

 
Steelers GM Kevin Colbert said the team would "be disappointed" if Najee Harris wasn't a three-down back. 

When asked if Harris could play three downs as a rookie, Colbert said "you would hope so." It's a strong vote of confidence that Harris is already a complete back. The Alabama prospect caught 43 passes for 425 yards and four scores in his final season with the Tide. At 6'1 and 232 pounds, he also has the size to dominant his opponents between the tackles. While Pittsburgh's offensive line will be a concern for Harris, his massive role appears to be solidified. He makes sense as a borderline RB1 in fantasy drafts even if his line could take another step backward. 

SOURCE: Around the NFL on Twitter

Jul 27, 2021, 4:23 PM ET
Click to expand...

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Terpman22
If Jalen Hurts Gets 100+ Rushing Touchdowns = Hall of Fame?
5 6 7
Replies
330
Views
5K
Uruk-Hai
Uruk-Hai
BobbyLayne
Sonic & Knuckles (Gibbs + Montgomery) want to be the best RB duo of all time
Replies
24
Views
1K
BobbyLayne
BobbyLayne
JohnnyU
DEVY RB Justice Haynes, formally Alabama, now in transfer portal
Replies
6
Views
430
gump
gump

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top