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RB Royce Freeman, LAR (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Snorkelson
- Start date
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
Yup. Book's book is him saying that Book's story has already been written.. in a book.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
His first two carries were for 4 yards each, running into the teeth of the D and the third was straight up the gut for 8 years.
Yes, other players could've scored on that TD run. But not a lot of them score untouched. You may think otherwise, but you also feel that Booker has done something in his entire career to justify him sitting in front of anyone but me as a starter in the NFL.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Kind of a rude response here bro. That's not even what I said.
I'm being realistic and just trying to help. I've been doing this for a a long time. Its not that I THINK Booker deserves the spot, I'm just reading the tea leaves.
It's rare for a non 1st Rounder to walk into the starting job sans injury. For many reasons.
I can give countless examples of coaches giving the veteran carries over the rookie. It happened to Jamaal Charles. It happened to Adrian Peterson. It happened to David Johnson. It happened to Lesean McCoy. It happens to everyone.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
While I think Freeman is one of 2 rookie RBs not named Barkley to be the starter for their team in 2018 (Kerryon being the other), you make a valid point.
This has been posted before in other threads and it discusses the chances of finding a starting running back per round in the draft. 3rd round is a 16% chance. So the odds are not in Freeman's favor. We all know who Booker is, but it's very possible Freeman may not be the answer either. So far he is showing he can be though with a strong camp and preseason. Given what's in front of him, chances are he does end up being the starter sooner rather than later, but I also am not completely sold on his effectiveness. So far he looks like one of the few rookie RBs who will actually be in a position have some significant fantasy relevance this season.
Dismattle
Footballguy
Think we all know that coaching staffs tend to at least accommodate the veteran and/or show some appreciation for past efforts... Hell I kind of like to see the token play where a player takes the first snap of the game That takes aside do you understand how bad it looks if Joseph can't get Freeman on the field w/ production Booker 2016 > 174 rush's/612 yds/4 TD's (3.5 avg) Long of 18 yds
https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Article/NFLcoms-rating-of-Broncos-HC-Vance-Joseph-speaks-to-validity-of-hot-seat-status-119464819/
Believe HC Joseph best bet is to play the best players on the field OR at least splitting time
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Sorry I didn't make my response and offer a tissue with it. I didn't realize people got so sensitive about shooting the chit about fantasy football.
I'm not sure what you are saying with the bolded. Are you saying that Charles, Peterson, Johnson and McCoy all sat behind veterans? Or are you saying those players made rookies sit behind them. If it's the former we are talking apples and oranges on top of the fact that things didn't quite go the way you remember. Jamaal Charles sat behind Larry Johnson who twice had 1700 yard seasons and had 77 total TD's over those two seasons. The next year, he missed almost half the year due to injury. Was KC supposed to bench Johnson for the 3rd rounder of Charles, a year removed from 1700 yards and 41 rushing TD's?
Adrian Peterson may not have been called the starter, but his first three games in the regular season his 271 rushing and 160 receiving yards are still a team record. So that makes his example pretty much moot. I'll gladly have Booker be named the starter if Freeman can put up that kind of production.
David Johnson? He rode the pine behind Chris Johnson. Not the Tennessee Titans Chris Johnson who has 2K yards in 2009. No, this 8 year veteran Chris Johnson on his third team. How could they ever keep David Johnson on the bench for him? Maybe because Chris Johnson was in the top three in rushing when he went down with an injury in late November. The next week David Johnson started. Chris Johnson didn't start over the rook because he was a vet, he started because he was getting it done. Not to mention, David Johnson coming from Northern Iowa probably had to learn a good bit about pass blocking to keep that not so mobile QB upright.
And Lesean McCoy? Bryan Westbrook had just signed a $32 million extension the year before. He was a second round pick that got his first start week 3 his rookie season. Westbrook only had 7 starts that year. So what held the rookie back? Not Westbrook and his hefty price tag. Maybe Shady needed help learning the game. He only averaged 4.1 yards a carry that year. The second lowest in his career (last year he had 4.0). Was it a veteran holding Shady back or was it Shady? Looking at his stat line in his rookie season, I would not blame it on a veteran.
Every one of these guys you mentioned either sat behind a very established veteran (David Johnson, Charles and McCoy) and the other dominated from day one whether he was the starter or not. Freeman isn't sitting behind Bryan Westbrook, Chris Johnson or Larry Johnson. He's sitting behind Booker. Booker who after 2 years in the NFL has 911 yards rushing and a 3.6 YPC. He can catch the ball, I'll give him that. But that doesn't make him an entrenched starter/veteran. It makes him a third down back.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
cream always rises to the top.the best player will be the starter..whether Booker or Freeman..but Joseph also realizes he'll be fired at years end if they fail to make the playoffs, so you'd think he would be inclined to use his best player
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Jamaal Charles sat behind Larry Johnson who twice had 1700 yard seasons and had 77 total TD's over those two seasons. The next year, he missed almost half the year due to injury. Was KC supposed to bench Johnson for the 3rd rounder of Charles, a year removed from 1700 yards and 41 rushing TD's?
**Dang that's a lot**
**Dang that's a lot**
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
My point is that we have seen running backs much more talented than Royce Freeman split time with veterans. It happens every year.TheFanatic said:
So it's not an issue of me thinking Booker deserves the starting job. It's a matter of me understanding how the league works.
Booker knows the offense. Booker is proven in pass protection. Freeman is still learning the offense. Freeman is still proving himself in pass protection.
If your best argument that Royce Freeman should be starter is that Devontae Booker lacks talent, that's not a great hill to die on. If Booker is so bad, why is he still listed as the starter?
Freeman and Booker are much closer in talent than you'd like to admit. Go ahead and read the Booker thread, people were ranting and raving about him as a rookie as well.
It's recency bias. Freeman is the shiny new toy. His ADP is 4.09. Booker's ADP is 11.09.
You guys can go ahead and burn a 4th round pick on a guy WHO MIGHT be starter. I'll take the guy 7 rounds later who is the starter at a position where coaches have been notoriously stubborn to give rookies opportunity.
I know which player has more risk / reward based on where they're being drafted.
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Dismattle
Footballguy
I mean the "Team" knows who should be playing HC favors the wrong player for any reason and it could mean The End after only a short period of time Not to mention that they're already aware of his view (Broncos coach Vance Joseph said he expects the team to use 2-3 "main" backs.) The Defense should be good to great w/ the Book Ends IF they ain't winning I doubt Coach is gonna get brownie points for having his team prepped for recovering from an injured RB
I'm just saying an opportunity should present itself which is more than half the battle Freeman should be considered capable of taking over the position(btw) Who the hell would be this 3rd rb? I'm kinda asking factiously but it sure seems like an odd stance for the HC Yeah its a great stance for the HC to have because it should make the backs work their hardest Hope Freeman makes him change his mind the sooner the better though Reality is its Hard enough to see one back productive We give nicknames for Teams producing w/ three backs
I'm just saying an opportunity should present itself which is more than half the battle Freeman should be considered capable of taking over the position
Dismattle
Footballguy
This is a good to great RB class Not as easy to dismiss or make so much of where drafted Maybe they got their guy just like we sometimes do in Fantasy I do like the argument that you present though
238 pounds the guy should be able to pass block which is what prohibits some backs
Dismattle
Footballguy
You know whats funny or ironic This could be another case of both you guys being right One plays the thumper role while the other earns PPR stardom on 3rd and long I mean it is Bookers 3rd year so any improvement due to continuity or whatever may just be rewarded w the tag starter even if it just means earning playtime on the 1st possession
Thanx Stuart I have like 7th pick in my draft and still somewhat undecided LOL
Thanx Stuart I have like 7th pick in my draft and still somewhat undecided LOL
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Well his TD run in game 1 looked really good to me. And I did *not* think that just any RB would score there.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
But those veterans blocking young backs were actually starters previously and had at least shown to be adequate. Booker has never done anything. He’s not keeping anyone on the bench unless they are truly awful. I’m not a big Freeman fan but his situation is great imo.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
It's a draw play out of shotgun. The defense is playing the pass. That's an easy gain for anyone and a play that most 3rd down backs make.
Glad to see him make the play but it was against backups. Starters make plays under center. Starters make plays against stacked boxes, imo.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
It's a good situation, sure. But he's getting drafted ahead of:
Brandin Cooks, Josh Gordon, Mark Ingram, Jimmy Graham, Dion Lewis, Marvin Jones, Tom Brady, Greg Olsen, Rashaad Penny, Russell Wilson, Michael Crabtree
I don't like to use this word. But it's just plain stupid. There's no value here.
There’s plenty of value there. If Freeman becomes the workhorse, which is probably at least 60/40 at this stage, then he easily provides more value than the bolded (included Gordon because I’ve got a bad feeling about his “return”). Two of the other three are QBs, if which there’s a solid 10+ others at the position providing value. At this stage he’s a better bet than Penny to become the feature back, and there’s plenty of questions surrounding Cooks usage in LA.
Seems like you’re alone on your island here, which is fine. But to claim that there’s no value for a RB over the likes of some of the guys you posted is pretty silly.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I understand what you wrote, my point is if you're taking him in the 4th round. How are you going to bench him Week 1? You have to start him.
If you're not willing to start him, how much value does he really have in the 4th round? He's literally the 4th player you're taking out of a 9+ player lineup.
You gotta take a player that's going to start on your team there.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
He's going in the 4th? I'm out at that price, particularly in full PPR. But, if you're asking me if I'd start him week 1 at home vs. SEA I would say yes. I think he'll likely be flex worthy regardless of format.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Late 4th, early 5th most likely. He comes off the board right after Jay Ajayi, Kenyan Drake, and Lamar Miller.
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If he’s starting, then I’m probably not. If he’s not starting, then hopefully I’m halfway decent at ffball and have another option to start the season. If I suck at ffball and didn’t draft another starting caliber option, then it’s not going to matter who I took in the 4th round anyways. But if he’s a workhorse RB, you’re smoking the team that took half of those non-difference making guys you listed in that same round.
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SameSongNDance
Footballguy
According to which site, fantasyfootballcalculator? #### I hate using sites that include mocks but I have to admit it's more likely to have its finger on the pulse of ADP swings than sites that exclude mocks. Yes, I think that's pushing it particularly in full PPR. There isn't much value there but then again in a perfect world I guess everyone would be priced "fairly".
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
To each their own, my friend. I understand your logic here. I even like Royce Freeman as a talent.
He's a complete Runningback. He can easily run for 800 yards / 8 touchdowns.
But this is not my hill to die on. Appreciate the insight. Differences of opinion like this is what makes fantasy football great.
?
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Yup, that's the site! I mean, I like Freeman. But I'm not paying a premium at a position that gets injured the most on an offense I'm not crazy about to begin with.
If certain players weren't overvalued, others wouldn't be undervalued. So, to hell with fair value!
barackdhouse
Footballguy
You can't hold it against him that it was a good play design. It still counts. I agree it was there for the taking. But he was very nimble doing it. And when I saw it live I did not think that just anyone could have finished that for the TD. I'm not saying he is necessarily going to be anything special or not, IDK, but I thought to myself that he looked good. On that *one* play. He made a nice cut to the outside that showed good burst and taking the right angle to finish. Regardless of the play call or defense, I thought *he* looked good. My take.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Oh, for a 230 lb big man that cut he makes is incredible. He made that safety look like an idiot.
If he can do that running under center, then he's a baller. But the man he beat was a second string defensive back.
It's a little different when you're going against NFL calibre linebackers.
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Hankmoody
Footballguy
77 TD's in two years - that's more than most teams score in two seasons. LT has the record with 28 rushing and 30 total in one season.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Yeah it was a pretty bad typo mistake. Then he made it twice. But I should have quoted it instead of copy and paste. Not sure what LJs numbers actually were, just that he did crush it there for a couple years. But not like Tomlinson.
Dismattle
Footballguy
Veteran undrafted FS who plays ST who also gives up in excess of 40 pds to Freeman (But yeah 2nd string) https://youtu.be/mlrmg7Zim8s?t=1m17s
btw #41 just finished feeling whats coming in another play So he probably knows what he's up against He's gonna need to be set to have a chance! https://youtu.be/mlrmg7Zim8s?t=49s
// Edit (cute tweet) https://twitter.com/oregonfootball/status/969645552903233537
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
Exactly. Let's play a little logic game. Which name doesn't belong:
Larry Johnson
Chris Johnson
Bryan Westbrook
Devontae Booker
The first three kept non first rounders off the field due to the fact that they were good. Really, really good.
And the argument that, "I'm going to pick the guy 7 rounds later who is the starter," is like listening to coaches and GM's an hour after the draft when they swear they hit home runs with every guy they drafted. Rooks have to earn the starting role. Winning that over Larry Johnson is not something that happens in Training Camp because LJ was not only established but a year removed from absolutely dominating the league. Earning it over Devontae Booker and his 6 career starts is quite another.
And who the heck was raving about Booker? In the guy's 6 career starts he has this for YPC:
2.8
2.2
3.2
3.3
1.9
.03
His yards per catch is nice and he has good hands, but that doesn't make him a starter. It makes him a 3rd down back who is listed on the depth chart as 1st for the same reason coaches rave about their drafts. It's coach speak. This is so Freeman earns it and doesn't just assume it. That being said, the rest of us can assume it. Booker in the 11th is a reach except for PPR leagues.
Elevencents
Footballguy
Picked him up at 44 in a 17 (!) team work league. And he just went 4.02 in a 12 team FPC draft.
Was hoping to grab him in the 5th in my main league but doesn’t look like that is gonna happen.
Was hoping to grab him in the 5th in my main league but doesn’t look like that is gonna happen.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Bro, you're taking this too literally. It was never my intention for you to break down the situation of each player in that list.
I made that list in about 30 seconds with zero nuance involved. The point was to show that rookie RBs get stuck in timeshares with inferior talents all the time.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
How do we feel about Freeman's 3.3 YPC in last night's pre-season game against the Bears?
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Elevencents
Footballguy
It’s not hurting his ADP that’s for sure. Did a best ball after the game and he went 3.10.
I would say the overwhelming consensus on the forum is that Booker is awful and Freeman is the workhorse going forward. I have been tempering my expectations a little bit and think the change may take place a little slower but Booker is def on a short leash. I’m not worried about last night but he’s def going too high for my liking. Only have him in one league thus far because of it. I’ve been getting Ingram 2 rounds later.
I would say the overwhelming consensus on the forum is that Booker is awful and Freeman is the workhorse going forward. I have been tempering my expectations a little bit and think the change may take place a little slower but Booker is def on a short leash. I’m not worried about last night but he’s def going too high for my liking. Only have him in one league thus far because of it. I’ve been getting Ingram 2 rounds later.
matuski
Footballguy
ffldrew
Footballguy
As a Broncos fan I wouldn't say Booker is awful - he had a few strong runs. What it looks like to me is a clear RBBC - but down near goal line carries are going to Freeman because he has size - and has been running strong through tackles. So in fantasy Freeman will have more value. Also from the last two games in pre season they have been giving Philip Lindsey a real shot and he's stepped up. He could eat into a few carries and catches that would have been tagged for Booker. I'd put Freeman in at the bottom edge of a Flex/3RB to start the season and Booker behind that. There are going to be some games where they look like a real value/steal - but then next game could disappear.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Then come up with another list. Because inferior talent is not what you listed there.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
How do you feel about Booker getting the first carry on the first drive and then Freeman got the second drive. At this point, the most that Booker can hope for is a RBBC where Freeman gets the goal line carries. 3rd down backs generally don't last that long in that role.
Oh, and YPC in preseason is not really a stat you should focus on in that the coaching staff want to see all the players on the depth chart get some action. If Freeman were grinding out against the Chicago D all game (like he would in the regular season), his YPC would go significantly higher. The guy got a handful of carries against the first teamers and then went to the showers. You might want to note that for future talent evaluation. Just trying to help
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
I feel like it's a timeshare with one guy going in the 4th round and the other guy going in the 11th.
I feel like that since they're alternating series that the guy you get 7 rounds later is going to be the player to own.
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