Mister Fisher?Minny on line 1...Chicago on line 2....Houston on line 4...Dallas on line 5.. Your wife on line 6...Cincy on line 7 .....
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Report: Titans to choose Young over Fisher? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
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Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
Spaces Lines and Laces
Footballguy
Give him (Fisher) some semblance of a passing game and let's revisit this. Young has an impressive record, but the defense and running game have more to do with that than he. Who year after year puts together a good Defense and ground game? Fisher. I've been a Titans fan since they've been in Nashville, but I'll boycott the franchise if they do something this stupid.
Rick James
Footballguy
You know what, you're right. Vince Young is solely responsible for those 30 wins.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I am sure there are a lot of teams that would like to have someone who is a proven good head coach, but many people still overrate him. Many talk like he is God's gift to coaching, but the facts cannot be denied: five playoff wins in nearly 17 years, the last of which was following the 2003 season.
Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
How many coaches have more than 5 playoff wins in the last 17 years?
BINGBING
Footballguy
I don't think it's as simple as that. All he has had to work with for his entire career is what they draft. No big name free agents come to town...it's where big free agents leave from. He doesn't have the luxury of keeping stud talent because the owners won't pay when their contract is up. The Titans franchise as a whole will be in shambles when he's gone.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Off the top of my head: BelichickShanahanReidCoughlinDungyCowherHolmgrenAnd while Fisher is a good head coach, I wouldn't put him in the same tier with any of those guys. Now, how about we discuss what coaches have more than zero playoff wins since 2004?
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
No, he isn't solely responsible. I'm pretty sure that's not what he's saying.I'm pretty sure what he IS saying is that the team consistently wins a lot more games when VY starts the game than when he doesn't. Since VY got there, the Titans are 44-32. They're 14-15 when VY doesn't start, 30-17 when he does. Since Chris Johnson got there, the Titans are 26-17. They're 13-11 when VY doesn't start, 13-6 when he does.Either way, they win about 2/3 of the games VY starts and about 1/2 of the games he doesn't.
*shrugs*Ken Whisenhunt has had 4 wins in 4 years.
Ice Cream Man
Footballguy
Honest question: have you watched Tennessee the last few times they've been in the playoffs?I would be interested in knowing your take on them. I think an honest view is that Fisher has had his teams ready to play, and have done well. In my view, TEN dominated the Ravens in the playoffs in 2001 (their Superbowl winning season) and in 2008. They managed to lose those games via a host of incredibly fluky plays... blocked FG returned for TD, Eddie "I Never Fumble" George fumbling on the 10-yard line after getting concussed, Crumpler fumbling inexplicably on the Ravens 5-yard line as he's about to score, et al. And then there's losing the Superbowl by a yard.
Of course, every team has their ups and downs.. and narrow misses.. but the broader point is that his teams have rarely been outcoached or out hussled. Fisher has consistently put good teams on the field in, historically, one of the most competitive divisions in the league... previously with the Ravens, Steelers, and Jags (in the AFC Central).. and now with the Colts in the AFC South.
VY 30-17 AS A STARTING QB.What's going on in TEN isn't all VY's fault just like it's not all on Fisher.
FUBAR
Footballguy
except for last year, the Titans D has been one of the best in the league. During that time, their run game has also been one of the best. Their passing game has been among the worst. Obviously VY helps in the run game and he helps them win, but if I'm looking at the youngish starting QBs in the NFL and how I think they'd do with this team, VY ranks below Eli, Cutler, Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Bradford, Orton, Sanchez, and probably Henne. Not to mention the true studs.The winning percentage inherently ignores the biggest issue with him, we cannot trust that he's able to play, mentally or physically. When everything goes his way he's a very good player, but when he's down, he's downright horrible.
Since VY got there, the Titans are 44-32. They're 14-15 when VY doesn't start, 30-17 when he does.Since Chris Johnson got there, the Titans are 26-17. They're 13-11 when VY doesn't start, 13-6 when he does.Either way, they win about 2/3 of the games VY starts and about 1/2 of the games he doesn't.
IMHO Fisher is to blame for his "downs" a lot more than VY as Fisher goes out of his way to undermine VY since he was "forced" on Fisher.
FUBAR
Footballguy
you seem to assume the Titans would be stuck with Kerry Collins or Rusty Smith.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
So much speculation in this thread you can cut it with a knife.
IN MY OPINION They are both coming back next year. VY just acted immaturely. And Jeff Fisher acted with some tough love. I think they will talk face to face soon (if they haven't already) and this will be over. VY has already admitted he is wrong. Fisher will accept that at some point and coach VY up with it.
IN MY OPINION They are both coming back next year. VY just acted immaturely. And Jeff Fisher acted with some tough love. I think they will talk face to face soon (if they haven't already) and this will be over. VY has already admitted he is wrong. Fisher will accept that at some point and coach VY up with it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Out of all the bs in this thread, this takes the cake. From blaming Fisher for VYs immaturity to claiming he has gone out of his way to undermine him.
smitty63
Footballguy
Probably nothing since they'll still have a turd at QB. The Tiatans deserve Vince Young.
smitty63
Footballguy
A winner? Really? More like a whiner. A winner doesn't meltdown like cheap plastic every time there's some adversity and things don't go your way. Young is far from a winner. If he finds a way to grow up he could be a decent qb but don't hold your breath.
jackdubl
Footballguy
Fisher's tactics definitely don't seem to be helping Vince. Undermining a QB's confidence usually doesn't get you where you want to go. I'm a huge Jeff Fisher fan, have been for decades, I guess, but he does not want Vince Young as his QB and hasn't for a long time. Why you continuosly pull your QB in tight games where he's fighting with the rest of the team to win? It's obvious he hold Vince to a different standard. Just look at last year. Despite an 0-7 start, it took the owner's ultimatum to get Vince on the field. Next season, he is constantly pulled in either tie or one score games, in the second half...why? He's fighting, you have a chance to win, any change would seem ill-timed. He does it over and over again. Sits him any chance he gets, really. I don't think VY will have much of a career as long as Fisher is his coach.Maybe Fisher can become the Cowboys coach at the end of this fiasco, which I heard Jon Clayton speculate would happen the instant he was let go. Win for the Cowboys!
Seems like the big problem for the Titans is that if they are an organization where the owner chooses the QB and runs the long tenured coach off in the process, they are dead meat. That just isn't the way to run an NFL team. Doesn't matter if VY is terrible or great. And coaches will not be enthusiastic about entering that kind of situation. It makes Dan Snyder look un-meddlesome. Not clear that Jerry Jones even meddles in coaching decisions at that level, and he is the GM. It is Al Davis level.
jackdubl
Footballguy
I have to admit, as much as I love Fisher, the Titans have no creativity on offense. CJ gained a heck of a lot of yards last season, yet I still don't see him really used what I would consider as properly. Imagine how Andy Reid would have utilized that talent.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
Vince Young is a big baby. For an owner to take his side over a guy like Fisher is a huge mistake. I look forward to seeing what Tennessee does without him, that team will be terrible.
Not only that, if you were a good coach, would you want to go to Tennessee where the owner chooses the starting QB over you? You want a boss like that, that you know doesn't have your back going into the season? Forget that!
Not only that, if you were a good coach, would you want to go to Tennessee where the owner chooses the starting QB over you? You want a boss like that, that you know doesn't have your back going into the season? Forget that!
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
What they'll do is start playing to the level of competition that the similarly small market Buffalo Bills do.Limp Ditka said:
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Can you imagine Young's sense of entitlement and self-indulgence if he thinks that the organization chose him over Fisher?
FUBAR
Footballguy
What they'll do is start playing to the level of competition that the similarly small market Buffalo Bills do.Limp Ditka said:
?Metropolitan Nashville's population is 50% bigger than Metro-Buffalo, on average each person makes close to $10k more. Nashville is more comparable to Indianapolis. The area has increased 20% since 2000 while Buffalo has decreased 3%. It wouldn't surprise me if the Nashville area were bigger than Kansas City soon. (granted, it won't ever be one of the huge markets)
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Here are the Oilers/Titans Points Allowed and Yards Allowed rankings (in that order) since Jeff Fisher took over in mid-season for Jack Pardee in 1994. (#1 is best. #32 is worst)FUBAR said:
Year Points Allowed, Yards Allowed
1994 21, 9
1995 7, 5
1996 16, 6
1997 12, 22
1998 12, 16
1999 15, 17
2000 2, 1
2001 25, 25
2002 11, 10
2003 13, 12
2004 30, 27
2005 29, 19
2006 31, 32
2007 8, 5
2008 2, 7
2009 7, 28
2010 8, 24
Fisher-coached Titan teams have had a handful of very good defenses, even more bad defenses, and a lot of run-of-the-mill ones. The respective average ranking is roughly 15 and 16.
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VICK-tory
Footballguy
I wonder if Fisher quits after the season.Btw there is a scathing beatdown writeup on Young at The Huddle.com.
hairyscotsman, not quoting big long post. The Titans defense "except for last year" has in fact been one of the best. He didn't mean throughout the history of the NFL and clearly meant recently and/or during Young's tenure.
Last year they opened the season with three injuries to their secondary where players couldn't play and a fourth where a player probably shouldn't have played. After week 8-about the time Vince took over-their secondary was back together and playing much better as was their defense.
I think the prevailing thought about teams Fisher creates goes back to many old adages-you win in the trenches and/or you win with rushing and defense. Those old adages don't give any indication that Collins, Smith or Young matter. We all know plenty about how Supe QBs are praised and a key to their teams, yet we've also heard those adages a thousand times.
Fisher coaches what he's given. The winning record with Young stuff is like a bad movie that doesn't tell the whole story the book does. The Titans drafted two tackles (neither one a glorified tackle before the draft) and they became two of the best tackles in football. All-pros and pro bowls have already started to become regular with them. So it's not just a dominant run game and great OL (as Matt alluded to) but unlike most NFL QBs Young and Collins have been given "all day" on so many occasions and owe those two tackles such a giant thank you. IIRC two years ago, they only allowed 4-6 sacks between the two of them. Next year, as you know, CJ ran for 2k yards. Those two tackles are as much a part of the Titans success as anyone.
And on defense, Fisher gets a name in Jason Jones but he's quickly injured and clearly brought in just so the team doesn't have to spend a truckload on a defensive player that is a legitimate MVP candidate. Vandenbosch is doing well in Detroit and the Titans drafted Morgan who, surprise, is on IR. There's a whole lot of one step forward two steps back in how the Titans GM/owner manage the personnel.
How about a dominant CBs affect on the team? on the defense? Yeah Cortland Finnegan is pretty close to a Colston story and his timeline is pretty close to Vince Young's as well. Opposite him, they have a rookie ballhawk that gets burned deep and a good cover guy in his second year that somehow is "right there" yet the WR catches it every time.
How was Lendale as a goalline back? AS THAT ROLE he was pretty great and...he was gone.
Derrick Mason was "money" for years, where's he playing? Who was his QB a few years ago? Before the "Yeah but that was years ago" reply, Keith Bulluck looks good in a NYG uniform.
This one step forward two steps back management is brutal to watch during the offseason but year in and year out, Fisher puts a good product on the field anyway. That's why he's a great coach.
Last year they opened the season with three injuries to their secondary where players couldn't play and a fourth where a player probably shouldn't have played. After week 8-about the time Vince took over-their secondary was back together and playing much better as was their defense.
I think the prevailing thought about teams Fisher creates goes back to many old adages-you win in the trenches and/or you win with rushing and defense. Those old adages don't give any indication that Collins, Smith or Young matter. We all know plenty about how Supe QBs are praised and a key to their teams, yet we've also heard those adages a thousand times.
Fisher coaches what he's given. The winning record with Young stuff is like a bad movie that doesn't tell the whole story the book does. The Titans drafted two tackles (neither one a glorified tackle before the draft) and they became two of the best tackles in football. All-pros and pro bowls have already started to become regular with them. So it's not just a dominant run game and great OL (as Matt alluded to) but unlike most NFL QBs Young and Collins have been given "all day" on so many occasions and owe those two tackles such a giant thank you. IIRC two years ago, they only allowed 4-6 sacks between the two of them. Next year, as you know, CJ ran for 2k yards. Those two tackles are as much a part of the Titans success as anyone.
And on defense, Fisher gets a name in Jason Jones but he's quickly injured and clearly brought in just so the team doesn't have to spend a truckload on a defensive player that is a legitimate MVP candidate. Vandenbosch is doing well in Detroit and the Titans drafted Morgan who, surprise, is on IR. There's a whole lot of one step forward two steps back in how the Titans GM/owner manage the personnel.
How about a dominant CBs affect on the team? on the defense? Yeah Cortland Finnegan is pretty close to a Colston story and his timeline is pretty close to Vince Young's as well. Opposite him, they have a rookie ballhawk that gets burned deep and a good cover guy in his second year that somehow is "right there" yet the WR catches it every time.
How was Lendale as a goalline back? AS THAT ROLE he was pretty great and...he was gone.
Derrick Mason was "money" for years, where's he playing? Who was his QB a few years ago? Before the "Yeah but that was years ago" reply, Keith Bulluck looks good in a NYG uniform.
This one step forward two steps back management is brutal to watch during the offseason but year in and year out, Fisher puts a good product on the field anyway. That's why he's a great coach.
FUBAR
Footballguy
That's great, we're talking about Vince's success, not Fisher's. My point is he's benefited from having one of the league's best defenses most of his time here.
FUBAR
Footballguy
he's been good enough to not get fired most years, that's a level of success but we want more.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
I believe my lying eyes that he is a good coach. I think he has earned the attitude.
gpthatsme
Footballguy
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
You're so cute with your hometown pride.What they'll do is start playing to the level of competition that the similarly small market Buffalo Bills do.Limp Ditka said:
Rick James
Footballguy
hey go ahead and hitch your wagon to a guy who's so immature he threw his shoulder pads into the stands, got into a fight in a college bar, and had some sort of missing-person/suicide thing going on a few years ago.
you definitely want to make that guy your franchise
you definitely want to make that guy your franchise
FUBAR
Footballguy
As are you with your ignorance.You're so cute with your hometown pride.:( ?Metropolitan Nashville's population is 50% bigger than Metro-Buffalo, on average each person makes close to $10k more. Nashville is more comparable to Indianapolis. The area has increased 20% since 2000 while Buffalo has decreased 3%. It wouldn't surprise me if the Nashville area were bigger than Kansas City soon. (granted, it won't ever be one of the huge markets)What they'll do is start playing to the level of competition that the similarly small market Buffalo Bills do.Limp Ditka said:
And VY might be a little more "mature" if Fisher didn't keep treating him like a Yo-Yo in and out of the lineup as Fisher feels like it
Fisher deserves to get canned for treating the greatest offensive talent of this decade like the second coming of Eddie George rather than as alluded to upthread, utilized like Brian Westbrook was. As a perennial CJ owner, the thought of him playing in a offense with just a tiny bit of creativity keeps me up nights. Hopefully it'll happen, before Fisher wears all the tread off his tires.
Hairy Snowman
Footballguy
I disagree. I like Tennessee's O-Line. They may not have alot, but they got some big bad men up front. I think most backs have success behind that line. CJ is a very good back, but I think he doesn't have the same success without the scheme. Would you really rather he produce like Bush did? I agree that Tennessee is predictable on some inside runs and short passes, but they have limited talent. Its hard to drive fast when you are in a Ugo. That is how they can best attack with limited talent - use the clock, shorten the game and play smart. I think CJ is getting the chance to be the man in Tennessee, partly because he is the best they have. But the overall talent level is much lower than most other NFL teams. I think there are better backs. And regarding Fisher: This team is one game out of first place in their division (which includes Peyton Manning's Team and the team with Adrian). They have a good defense that gets to the QB and makes sacks/plays. They have the 8th ranked run offense. They are 1-0 in the division with all the remaining division games about to happen. They control their own destiny. And now their Offensive Coach is diagnosed with cancer? That is an intangible that this group likely turns to a positive.This team isn't dead yet.
Isn't this basically the point of keeping VY? It is so much more difficult to find a QB who can win than a good coach. Even if VY isn't ideal and has issues, leveraging a known commodity with a good winning % and some upside is a much easier route to success than the draft or free agency.Definitely think keeping Young over Fisher is the move.Matt Waldman said:
