Retired Cop Kills Man for Texting (1 Viewer)

[BigSteelThrill]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Jojo the circus boy. View it anyway?
Is he defending this murderer?

Its like he loves these kind of folks.

 

[pollardsvision]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Jojo the circus boy. View it anyway?
Is he defending this murderer?

I think he's defending Zimmerman. Peens liked it, if that influences your decision.

 

[The Commish]

Does not sound good for the old man shooter: Witnesses say he made statement that he will"teach the young guy to throw popcorn on him". After shooting said out loud" I can;t believe I shot him" Also told his wife to shut her f-ing mouth after she said what the young guy did'nt deserve to be shot,

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-surveillance-video-showing-wesley-chapel-movie-theater-shooting/2164252

Such a sad story

And completely avoidable with the slightest bit of self control. Maybe THIS dude should be the one fighting Zimmerman....put a gun in the middle of the ring gladiator style...whoever wins gets fed to the lions.

Did you get this nugget from your buddies at the shooting range or come up with it all by yourself? Good job associating an unlawful shooting with a lawful shooting, seems like you are still bitter about that one.

You have a weird definition for "associating". That your new shtick?

 

[T Bell]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Jojo the circus boy. View it anyway?
Is he defending this murderer?

What am I - your secretary? Unblock the friggin' post if you want to read it.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Does not sound good for the old man shooter: Witnesses say he made statement that he will"teach the young guy to throw popcorn on him". After shooting said out loud" I can;t believe I shot him" Also told his wife to shut her f-ing mouth after she said what the young guy did'nt deserve to be shot,

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-surveillance-video-showing-wesley-chapel-movie-theater-shooting/2164252

Such a sad story

And completely avoidable with the slightest bit of self control. Maybe THIS dude should be the one fighting Zimmerman....put a gun in the middle of the ring gladiator style...whoever wins gets fed to the lions.

Did you get this nugget from your buddies at the shooting range or come up with it all by yourself? Good job associating an unlawful shooting with a lawful shooting, seems like you are still bitter about that one.

You have a weird definition for "associating". That your new shtick?

You are the one that brought a bag of popcorn to a gun fight by introducing Zimmerman into every shooting thread that you muck up.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Jojo's Law is an assertion made by Jojo the circus boy in 2014 that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion about a shooting grows longer and more posts are made by "The Commish", the probability of a comparison involving George Zimmerman approaches 1."

In other words, Jojo said that, given enough time, in any online discussion involving a shooting—regardless of location or circumstance—The Commish inevitably makes a comparison to George Zimmerman.

 

[fatness]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Jojo the circus boy. View it anyway?
Is he defending this murderer?

Says he coulda been a hero.

 

[fantasycurse42]

####face McGee was denied bail.. Looks like the POS will be in jail until trial...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/bail-hearing-resumes-this-morning-in-movie-theater-shooting/2164575

 

[timschochet]

####face McGee was denied bail.. Looks like the POS will be in jail until trial...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/bail-hearing-resumes-this-morning-in-movie-theater-shooting/2164575

Obviously JoJo wasn't allowed to testify.

 

[The Commish]

Does not sound good for the old man shooter: Witnesses say he made statement that he will"teach the young guy to throw popcorn on him". After shooting said out loud" I can;t believe I shot him" Also told his wife to shut her f-ing mouth after she said what the young guy did'nt deserve to be shot,

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-surveillance-video-showing-wesley-chapel-movie-theater-shooting/2164252

Such a sad story

And completely avoidable with the slightest bit of self control. Maybe THIS dude should be the one fighting Zimmerman....put a gun in the middle of the ring gladiator style...whoever wins gets fed to the lions.

Did you get this nugget from your buddies at the shooting range or come up with it all by yourself? Good job associating an unlawful shooting with a lawful shooting, seems like you are still bitter about that one.

You have a weird definition for "associating". That your new shtick?

You are the one that brought a bag of popcorn to a gun fight by introducing Zimmerman into every shooting thread that you muck up.

Yeah...Zimmerman had been talked about WAY before I made this post. This whole "punchers chance" optimism has to be wearing thin by now doesn't it? The best part is, the context in which I brought up Zimmerman had nothing to do with either shooting event....you're pure awesome. Don't ever change.

 

[fantasycurse42]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

No chance, between the witnesses and everything else, this guy is a sitting duck... Even in some ### backwards place as Florida.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

No chance, between the witnesses and everything else, this guy is a sitting duck... Even in some ### backwards place as Florida.

it would be yet another travesty in the name of the law if this guy gets off

 

[Da Guru]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

 

[DMXATF23]

Theatre also has a no firearms policy...

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

 

[msommer]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

:applause:



Because any of that justifies ending your life!

 

[Dr Oadi]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

:applause:

Because any of that justifies ending your life!

Justify? No. Lead to? As we can see here yes. Don't be a dbag to start with or a John Wayne when confronted on something and the chances are a lot better of your life not ending.

 

[msommer]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

:applause:

Because any of that justifies ending your life!

Justify? No. Lead to? As we can see here yes. Don't be a dbag to start with or a John Wayne when confronted on something and the chances are a lot better of your life not ending.

Monday morning quarterbacking...

 

[toshiba]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

:applause:

Because any of that justifies ending your life!

Justify? No. Lead to? As we can see here yes. Don't be a dbag to start with or a John Wayne when confronted on something and the chances are a lot better of your life not ending.

So John Wayne is the one with the cell phone and not the d-bag with the gun?

 

[TxBuckeye]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

 

[mr roboto]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

Is there a video of the actual incident?

 

[Dr Oadi]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

Is there a video of the actual incident?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/retired-cop-florida-cinema-shooting-staying-jail-n24646

 

[fantasycurse42]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

The victim was the victim... Wasn't an idiot. Others who have been in the movies with the same demented old #### have said he was crazy. There is a women who came out and said she was scared bc this guy yelled at her at previous movie and followed her to the BR.

 

[fatness]

Theatre also has a no firearms policy...

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

Is there a video of the actual incident?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/retired-cop-florida-cinema-shooting-staying-jail-n24646

what strikes me is the casualness in the demeanor of everyone involved and the patrons nearby....almost surreal knowing that a guy just got shot and is dying on the floor

 

[T Bell]

Just jumping in to this thread, but just saw the video for the first time. This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison with out a doubt. And it is a shame someone had to die, and both family's lives be thrown in to chaos and ruin over something so trivial and stupid. But I have to say, the guy with the popcorn was an idiot in his own right. Should not have died over it, but he definitely instigated the confrontation. Like someone said up above, in this day and age, better watch out with the macho man crap. It can get you dead.

Is there a video of the actual incident?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/retired-cop-florida-cinema-shooting-staying-jail-n24646

what strikes me is the casualness in the demeanor of everyone involved and the patrons nearby....almost surreal knowing that a guy just got shot and is dying on the floor

The whole thing had to have been surreal. In the span of seconds you're going from casually and passively taking in a movie to watching someone end someone else's life. Everyone must have been in shock, and that includes the victim and the shooter it seems.

 

[Da Guru]

Think they both were idiots. No reason to shoot anybody but would the guy have thrown the box of popcorn at a 6-6 250lb younger man when told to stop texting? I don`t think so, he saw an old man sitting there and was pissed off and fired the box at him. Ended up with a cap in his chest.

If the old man did not shoot him we all would be saying what a doosh the young guy was for throwing a box of popcorn and putting a beat down on a 71 year old man over texting. When you stand up turn around and throw a box at someone you have to expect there will be a confrontation of some sort.

 

[fatness]

The prosecution then began presenting its own slate of witnesses, starting with 68-year-old Charles Cummings.

He sat a few seats down from Oulson that January day in the row in front of Reeves. During the previews, Cummings said he heard Reeves and Oulson talking, and at one point, the latter said, "I'm just texting my 2-year-old daughter."

Mark Douglas Turner -- who spent 27 years in the Air Force, including time as a clandestine officer who worked in China -- recalled a relatively calm Oulson saying, "Do you mind, I've got a voice mail from my daughter's babysitter? Do you mind I check to see if my daughter's alright?"

Before more authorities arrived, Reeves' wife told her husband "that was no cause to shoot anyone," according to Hamilton, the law enforcement officer who was then off-duty.

Reeves responded by pointing his finger at her and saying, according to Hamilton, "You shut your f**king mouth and don't say another word."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/

 

[DiStefano]

Think they both were idiots. No reason to shoot anybody but would the guy have thrown the box of popcorn at a 6-6 250lb younger man when told to stop texting? I don`t think so, he saw an old man sitting there and was pissed off and fired the box at him. Ended up with a cap in his chest.

If the old man did not shoot him we all would be saying what a doosh the young guy was for throwing a box of popcorn and putting a beat down on a 71 year old man over texting. When you stand up turn around and throw a box at someone you have to expect there will be a confrontation of some sort.

Exactly. It doesn't justify what the old man did in any way whatsoever, but actions have consequences and if you act like an idiot, it may come back to bite you.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Think they both were idiots. No reason to shoot anybody but would the guy have thrown the box of popcorn at a 6-6 250lb younger man when told to stop texting? I don`t think so, he saw an old man sitting there and was pissed off and fired the box at him. Ended up with a cap in his chest.

If the old man did not shoot him we all would be saying what a doosh the young guy was for throwing a box of popcorn and putting a beat down on a 71 year old man over texting. When you stand up turn around and throw a box at someone you have to expect there will be a confrontation of some sort.

Exactly. It doesn't justify what the old man did in any way whatsoever, but actions have consequences and if you act like an idiot, it may come back to bite you.

I just see things differently than some. I think if you are minding your own business then things like this dont happen.When people go out of there way to interject themselves into a situation that really doesnt involve them directly then that person takes sole responsibility of whatever transpires after that.

 

[fatness]

Reeves’ wife told a detective she didn’t see Oulson strike her husband, but he told her he had been hit in the moments after the shooting.Vivian Reeves also told detectives that Oulson used expletives, but didn’t make any threats. She cried during the interview and said she didn’t know why her husband fired the single shot.

In an interview this week on ABC’s “The View,” Nicole Oulson said her husband was texting with their daughter’s baby sitter.Reeves “had confronted my husband several times, which my husband ignored and ignored and ignored. And it just got to a point where my husband spoke up,” she said.

http://www.tallahassee.com/viewart/20140208/NEWS01/302080052/No-bail-Reeves-71-Fla-theater-shooting

 

[timschochet]

Lots of people in here ripping the victim. Sounds to me like he threw the popcorn as a last resort after the old guy just wouldn't leave him alone.

 

[Courtjester]

The defense has nothing to lose by going to trial in this case because even a finding of guilt to a lesser included means a life sentence (even if it is a 10-12 year sentence) for the old man.

So they can throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

It will be interesting to see what the shiny object is and that will be easy to determine because the police will have noted where the victim's cell phone was found.

 

[Premier]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

You are totally bat#### insane.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I think we can all see why Jojo trounced Apple Jack last round.

 

[fantasycurse42]

The video is interesting. Defense is claiming that the shiny object seen flying in after the popcorn was thrown, was the cell phone and the old man felt threatened. It is Florida, so it's very likely they will be able prove to at least one person that a cell phone can be used as a deadly projectile.

Plus the theatre has a no cell phone of texting policy that is posted. I guess don`t break the rules or you will die is a good motto.

Honestly though..this is why I don`t #### with anybody anymore. Sometimes I feel like beating some idiots ###..then I think what if he pops a cap into me.

Don't break the rules is a good start, don't swear at people when they give you #### for breaking the rules, don't disrespect your elders since they lived in a different time and you are not the hot #### that you think you are, and if said elder disappears after you swear at them, by no means do you then accuse them of "telling on you", stand up, and throw your bag of popcorn at them in an aggressive manner. In a nutshell stop acting like an ####### in front of your wife or you just might get shot, legally or otherwise - the guy was no saint.

You are totally bat#### insane.

Seriously... I just lost some brain cells reading that rant.

 

[fatness]

JoJo loves him some killers.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

JoJo loves him some killers.

and he loves pointing out that the people who die weren't saints...like that somehow justifies killing people

 

[Dr Oadi]

Lots of people in here ripping the victim. Sounds to me like he threw the popcorn as a last resort after the old guy just wouldn't leave him alone.

Violence is never a last resort to words.

 

[eurotrashman]

JoJo loves him some killers.

lol

 

[Premier]

My favorite part is how he said the victim shouldn't have broke the rules by texting, as a guy with a loaded handgun in a movie theatre sat 10 feet away from him.

 

[fantasycurse42]

My favorite part is how he said the victim shouldn't have broke the rules by texting, as a guy with a loaded handgun in a movie theatre sat 10 feet away from him.

Totally the victims fault if you ask jojo - should've known the old guy was ready to shoot.

 

[Dr Oadi]

My favorite part is how he said the victim shouldn't have broke the rules by texting, as a guy with a loaded handgun in a movie theatre sat 10 feet away from him.

The rules regular joes have to abide by do apply for cops.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

This could be anyone of us in a movie house...maybe we are checking our phone for whatever reason...then some guy starts ordering you to stop..NOW. ...Any man will get defensive and and basically tell that guy to mind his own business...that you are not the boss of me...and if you dont like it MOVE.

Point is as a man pride will enter into this and thats when it takes a bigger person to swallow the pride and avoid the impending escalation thats surely coming ...this event shows what happens when you dont.

Just sad all the way around.

 

[DSP]

If we were talking an old zack morris cell phone the size of a cinder block I would believe he felt threated, doesnt justify the shooting of course.

These days there isnt a cell phone on the market that could injure a grown man.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

If we were talking an old zack morris cell phone the size of a cinder block I would believe he felt threated, doesnt justify the shooting of course.

These days there isnt a cell phone on the market that could injure a grown man.

I could #### you up with the W key from a Blackberry, son.

 

[T Bell]

Lots of people in here ripping the victim. Sounds to me like he threw the popcorn as a last resort after the old guy just wouldn't leave him alone.

Think how silly that statement would sound in the absence of the shooting. That's the very point that's being made.

It still doesn't get within 100 miles of justifying the shooting, but it's certainly the case that Oulsen didn't defuse an escalating situation either.

 

[fatness]

Lots of people in here ripping the victim. Sounds to me like he threw the popcorn as a last resort after the old guy just wouldn't leave him alone.

Think how silly that statement would sound in the absence of the shooting. That's the very point that's being made.

It still doesn't get within 100 miles of justifying the shooting, but it's certainly the case that Oulsen didn't defuse an escalating situation either.

To be fair, from what Oulsen's wife said he kept ignoring Reeves for quite awhile, so he did try to not let a situation develop.

 

[T Bell]

The defense has nothing to lose by going to trial in this case because even a finding of guilt to a lesser included means a life sentence (even if it is a 10-12 year sentence) for the old man.

So they can throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

It will be interesting to see what the shiny object is and that will be easy to determine because the police will have noted where the victim's cell phone was found.

Even if it was a cell phone I'm not sure how much that helps the defense. How much damage can a cell phone do?

Also, he's already thrown it. This is apparently going to be a self-defense case. There needs to be a showing not just that you were in danger of severe bodily harm or death, but also that that threat was still in existence when you used deadly force. Is he going to claim that the victim had a whole additional basket of cell phones that he was clearly readying to throw at him?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

This could be anyone of us in a movie house...maybe we are checking our phone for whatever reason...then some guy starts ordering you to stop..NOW. ...Any man will get defensive and and basically tell that guy to mind his own business...that you are not the boss of me...and if you dont like it MOVE.

Point is as a man pride will enter into this and thats when it takes a bigger person to swallow the pride and avoid the impending escalation thats surely coming ...this event shows what happens when you dont.

Just sad all the way around.

It takes two to tango but you will always be blind to this when you can't win with your fists.