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Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)

(HULK) said:
Right, but isn't that also something a prostitution front that didn't partake in sex trafficking might do?
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Maybe. The police said those five were being operated by the same people. Which I feel is a better source of information than, for instance, rampant speculation as to how I’m a racist for believing them.  But I guess it could go either way. 

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
as close as it comes to naming her:

So it seems as if they are implying, even if not explicitly stating, that Zhu and Li were running those 5 named spas. And yes, you're also right that there were 10 in the ring, or at least 10 that they specified. 
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NBC2 may be implying it, but it's not exactly said.

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't, but I don't think that she definitely was based upon this article. She's not currently charged in connection to Orchids as far as I see. :Shrug:

 
Henry Ford said:
Maybe. The police said those five were being operated by the same people. Which I feel is a better source of information than, for instance, rampant speculation as to how I’m a racist for believing them.  But I guess it could go either way. 
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Can I see that quote?

And point of clarification, I'm saying the police are racists.

Police in neighboring county find trafficking at Asian massage parlor that is a front for prostitution, literally say to them that Orchids seems similar because it also had reviews on some site that apparently rates these places.  Orchids also a front for prostitution, but just because it's Asian staffed doesn't equal trafficking. The continuous assumption that it does coming out of the DAs mouth while he simultaneous says he has no evidence of this seems like stereotyping to me.

And if they were connected, wouldn't the neighboring county say that, instead of saying that they seem similar?

 
(HULK) said:
Can I see that quote?

And point of clarification, I'm saying the police are racists.

Police in neighboring county find trafficking at Asian massage parlor that is a front for prostitution, literally say to them that Orchids seems similar because it also had reviews on some site that apparently rates these places.  Orchids also a front for prostitution, but just because it's Asian staffed doesn't equal trafficking. The continuous assumption that it does coming out of the DAs mouth while he simultaneous says he has no evidence of this seems like stereotyping to me.

And if they were connected, wouldn't the neighboring county say that, instead of saying that they seem similar?
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You said this about my “assumption”

Quote
If you're referring to Orchids re: the bolded

, I disagree with that assumption.

Not all massage parlor prostitution fronts are the same, and it is ridiculous and racist to assume they are.
Also that I had fallen into the “Asian names look alike” trap. 

It’s the last quote in this post.  Which you’ve replied to. We’ve already discussed what the five spas are.  

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/774365-robert-kraft-yes-that-robert-kraft-charged-with-soliciting-prostitution/?do=findComment&comment=2175015

“We can show an organization here with definitely five spas in this area that’s run by one person with another assistant,” he said.
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Henry Ford said:
You said this about my “assumption”
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Nested quotes are all weird here, but I'm referring to two different assumptions.  I did not intend to imply that you are racist.  You may be, you may not be, I have no idea.

I do think that assuming all Asian run massage parlors, or even assuming all Asian run massage parlor prostitution fronts are involved in sex trafficking is racial stereotyping.

 
Interesting piece on SI from a few days ago that I just read today:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/02/27/robert-kraft-solicitation-human-trafficking-media-missed

So did Patriots owner Robert Kraft knowingly procure the services of a ruthless ring of human-traffickers, or not? If you've read much about his recent solicitation charges, you’d probably think there could be no question. NFL fans aren't often asked to focus so intently on labor violations, especially not those pertaining to immigrants in the sex industry, and, as in football, it can be hard to spot blown coverage without a little specialized education. Florida law enforcement has fed the press a slew of salacious details and unproven claims that reporters have been all too willing to repeat verbatim, without further investigation or any analysis.

We've been told that hygiene at the massage parlors was “minimal,” and workers saw “about 1,500 men a year, with no days off” for “graphic” and “unprotected” sex. This conjures a vivid picture of dirty, desperate women practically chained to beds as a steady stream of men live out their most degrading and pornographic fantasies—an image wildly out of step with the description of what actually happened during Kraft’s session, as captured by hidden cameras. It’s also inconsistent with police attempts to use the presence of condoms as evidence against the spa owners; an arrested manager was seen purchasing condoms, and there was “luggage full” of them at one location, according to The New York Times. It even contradicts the report from the local health inspector that kicked off the investigation. Her concern related to people possibly living at the location, not a hygienically unsafe environment. (Presumably if the spa were squalid, the inspector would have initiated its closure as she would with any other workplace.)

These sensationalized, inaccurate portrayals tend to stick in the mind, not only because they’re so compelling but because they’re familiar. They’ve been pushed relentlessly for years by law enforcement and faith-based groups devoted to eradicating sex work, and now, as noted by journalist Melissa Gira Grant, the President also enlists the specter of duct-taped, sexually exploited women as an argument for his border wall.

Because of the unusual amount of attention the Florida arrests have received—thanks not only to Kraft's involvement, but to the charges against billionaire Republican donor John Childs and former Citigroup exec John Havens—uncritical coverage stands to inflict more damage than usual. Credulous reporting, however well-intentioned, does a great disservice to an audience largely unfamiliar with the finer points of sex worker rights and real anti-trafficking advocacy; it fuses prostitution to forced labor, and furthers the lie that endangered workers are better aided by raids and arrest than by the practical, comprehensive provision of resources. Here’s a better, more informed way to receive the recent news.

Pay attention to the charges. Though state attorney Dave Aronberg and Martin County Sheriff William Snyder are still hammering the narrative of “human trafficking,” only one human trafficking charge has been brought: against a woman also accused of engaging in prostitution herself. According to a Thursday press release from the Vero Beach Police Department, after six months of investigation there are only two “confirmed” victims. Snyder told the Times, “I don’t believe [the women] were told they were going to work in massage parlors,” a disconcertingly equivocal statement from someone who’s been working on the case for months. Snyder also said that only one woman was still in contact with the police and that the others refused to talk—yet he maintained the effort had been “a rescue operation.” Judging by the charges, it’s a fairly routine prostitution bust.

Look for the workers’ voices. For almost a week, we’ve heard only from police and never from the alleged victims. Without statements from the women in question or the lawyers representing them, we can’t obtain meaningful information about the working conditions in the location Kraft visited (or anywhere else). Nor can we know if women were “lured” into the work through promises of a very different job or if they knew what they’d be doing in advance, if they were held as captives or if they engaged with their surrounding community as much or as little as they cared to. Unfortunately, these details may never come to light. Now that police and immigration authorities are involved, the women are highly incentivized to choose a “victim” status over that of intentional lawbreaker. Because the work is criminalized, they have no third option. Police Chief David Currey said as much on the day the news broke: "some of them may tell us they're OK, but they're not… even though we may have charges on some of them, we'd rather them be victims." (At least five women so far have been charged with prostitution.)

Think critically about law enforcement’s tactics. Police installed hidden cameras in the Jupiter massage parlor Kraft visited by fabricating a bomb threat. Officers also visited the spas undercover as paying clients to receive massages from women who allegedly offered them more intimate contact. The public is being asked to believe, then, that police sincerely regarded these women as “sex slaves,” yet didn’t hesitate to give them the traumatizing impression that their workplace, which may have doubled as their home, might be bombed. Police also had no moral or ethical qualms about receiving massages from these “malnourished” victims while undercover. Given the high-profile nature of the case, it’s entirely plausible that the hidden-camera footage will one day be made public, thereby outing women who were allegedly forced into having the sex caught on film—but police haven’t seemed worried about that, either.

This is an outrageous and wholly unnecessary degree of surveillance if the motivating concern is labor violations. As sex-worker rights activist Kate D’adamo observed, “There was no need to do a six month John sting. There is no need to touch anyone in a trafficking investigation.” The presence or absence of trafficking is not predicated on the presence or absence of commercial sex. Nothing about the conduct of the cops indicates knowledge of the best practices devised by trafficking survivors and service providers, which suggests, again, that this was a typical prostitution bust undertaken without serious consideration of what trafficked workers actually need. When images of the “care package” workers were said to receive hit Twitter, sex workers online were quick to note that police included an (English language) Christian pamphlet among the toiletries—a detail that attests to the ineptitude and cluelessness of those handling the case.

“It’s very safe to say without any hyperbole that this is the tip of the tip of the iceberg,” Sheriff Snyder said on Thursday, with maximum hyperbole. If it takes the police six months to locate two actual victims, we’ll be waiting a very long time for them to get to that totally real, non-exaggerated iceberg. Perhaps by then we'll be willing to have the "real conversation about human trafficking" that Aronberg claimed to be so desperate for in a press conference on Monday, though it's unlikely that police and prosecutors will ever be the ones to start it.

Charlotte Shane (@CharoShane) is a writer in New York
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On a related note:

The United States of America: We totally care about human trafficking

Also the United States of America: Judge tells jury that convicted a woman of sex trafficking and sale or purchase of a child to keep deliberating because God told him the defendant is innocent - receives no suspension, just a "public warning."

A Comal County district court judge received a public warning after he told the jury to keep deliberating over a defendant they convicted because God told him she was innocent.

Judge Jack Robison reported himself to the Texas Commission on Judicial Conduct after the outburst on Jan. 12, 2018, according to the committee's disciplinary document.

Robison presided over the trial of Gloria Romero Perez, who was charged with continuous sex trafficking and the sale or purchase of a child.

When Robison was informed the jury reached a guilty verdict, he told them her conviction would be a miscarriage of justice and asked them to keep deliberating.

"The judge later apologized to the jury, and said something to the effect of, 'When God tells me I gotta do something, I gotta do it,'" officials wrote in the report.

The judge received 18 other complaints against him about the outburst, according to the report.

The jury was not swayed by the judge's intervention and found Romero Perez guilty. She was sentenced to 25 years in prison.

However, the conviction was declared a mistrial in October after a judge found that Robison's rulings were not in accordance with the law and that he made partial comments throughout the trial. She is still awaiting a retrial, court records show.

In his self-report, Robison told the committee he was experiencing memory lapses at the time and was under extreme stress due to treatment for a medical condition and the death of a close friend.

Robison provided letters from two medical professionals that Robison's outburst was caused by a "temporary, episodic medical condition referred to as a 'delirum.'" The professionals said that the issue appears to be resolved and that Robison is not currently experiencing the same impairment.

The public warning is a more severe form of punishment than being privately warned, according to the commission's website, but the action falls short of suspension, which is the most serious disciplinary action the committee can vote on.

Robison denied he ever exhibited prejudice, but did recognize that his involvement with the jury was grounds for misconduct.
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Henry Ford said:
On a related note:

The United States of America: We totally care about human trafficking

Also the United States of America: Judge tells jury that convicted a woman of sex trafficking and sale or purchase of a child to keep deliberating because God told him the defendant is innocent - receives no suspension, just a "public warning."
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It would be interesting to see if the defendant donated to his judicial campaign or if he was on the john list.  Do you think the judge had a dream or that they hung out in similar circles on some level?

 
Henry Ford said:
On a related note:

The United States of America: We totally care about human trafficking

Also the United States of America: Judge tells jury that convicted a woman of sex trafficking and sale or purchase of a child to keep deliberating because God told him the defendant is innocent - receives no suspension, just a "public warning."
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Oh criminy. You've gotta be...

No. No you don't gotta be anything. Wow. 

 
(HULK) said:
So, she used to own it, but had zilch to do with anyone arrested in this sting.

While I have no love for our current president, isn't this a tremendous reach?
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You may be right, and I suppose I jumped at the headline and I thought she was involved, but she is not (beyond formerly owning Orchids). Yang does still own several spas in the area. I think your point is fair. I think it's also fair to point out that Yang's businesses also likely offer special services, right?

Yang’s family still owns several South Florida spas. The family’s Tokyo Day Spa branches have attracted the attention of at least two local police agencies over allegations of prostitution, and are discussed online as places where men can pay for sexual extras.

“If you’re just wanting to get a ‘rub and tug,’ this might be one of the best places in West Palm Beach,” one Internet commenter wrote about a Tokyo Day Spas’ parlor. A massage therapist at a different location informed police in late 2016 that some employees at the parlor were selling sex and said management encouraged the behavior.
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My point was really about how some of these businesses likely do have political influence one way or another. This seemed like a prime example. Why do the cops allow these businesses to stay open, there, here, anywhere?

- eta - Note that state officials feature prominently, including DeSantis, Scott and Jeb Bush. As I said you could leave the current president and his family out of it entirely.

 
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(HULK) said:
So, she used to own it, but had zilch to do with anyone arrested in this sting.

While I have no love for our current president, isn't this a tremendous reach?
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Hulk, do you remember when we talked about how - and why - these spas change ownership earlier in the thread?  And now you have a concrete statement that it happened with this spa, too.  

 
Henry Ford said:
Hulk, do you remember when we talked about how - and why - these spas change ownership earlier in the thread?  And now you have a concrete statement that it happened with this spa, too.  
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Okay, but this still isn't a spa that was sex trafficking, right? Still no evidence except when people confuse which Asian lady is which Asian lady.

Orchids of Asia was a prostitution front, zero doubts about that.  Was it a decade ago when this lady owned it?  I have no idea.

This lady owned a bunch of spas in Florida.  Are they prostitution fronts?  Maybe.  Are they sex trafficking?  Maybe.  But we have no real clue either way.  It is entirely possible this lady made all of this money she is donating to these politicians via illicit means, involving both prostitution and sex trafficking.  But it is also entirely possible that isn't the case.  I personally don't like jumping to conclusions like this, it is tinfoil hat-like conspiracy theories at this stage.

You've put me in the very unusual situation of having to defend Trump, which I don't like doing, so I'm just going to stop.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
You may be right, and I suppose I jumped at the headline and I thought she was involved, but she is not (beyond formerly owning Orchids). Yang does still own several spas in the area. I think your point is fair. I think it's also fair to point out that Yang's businesses also likely offer special services, right?

My point was really about how some of these businesses likely do have political influence one way or another. This seemed like a prime example. Why do the cops allow these businesses to stay open, there, here, anywhere?

- eta - Note that state officials feature prominently, including DeSantis, Scott and Jeb Bush. As I said you could leave the current president and his family out of it entirely.
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She totally could be a madam or head of a trafficking ring.  I just don't want to assume that is true based upon my own biases and stereotypes.  I truthfully have no idea either way.

 
(HULK) said:
Okay, but this still isn't a spa that was sex trafficking, right? Still no evidence except when people confuse which Asian lady is which Asian lady.

Orchids of Asia was a prostitution front, zero doubts about that.  Was it a decade ago when this lady owned it?  I have no idea.

This lady owned a bunch of spas in Florida.  Are they prostitution fronts?  Maybe.  Are they sex trafficking?  Maybe.  But we have no real clue either way.  It is entirely possible this lady made all of this money she is donating to these politicians via illicit means, involving both prostitution and sex trafficking.  But it is also entirely possible that isn't the case.  I personally don't like jumping to conclusions like this, it is tinfoil hat-like conspiracy theories at this stage.

You've put me in the very unusual situation of having to defend Trump, which I don't like doing, so I'm just going to stop.
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If she isn’t being charged in this massive law enforcement effort I have a tough time seeing how our residential Internet sleuths have uncovered the hidden nugget the police so easily missed.

 
jonessed said:
If she isn’t being charged in this massive law enforcement effort I have a tough time seeing how our residential Internet sleuths have uncovered the hidden nugget the police so easily missed.
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Of course.  Obviously the investigation is completely over, and as we all know if you can't charge someone it means they have no connection to the crime.  It's actually a little silly to even think about.  How could you possibly connect Yang to Zhang just because she sold her a business?  It's not like there's some company called Yang and Zhang, Inc.

 
Raylan said:
Another picture of Trump with human traffickers. He must be impeached.
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I think this reminds me why I'm cautious about jumping to conclusions.

I've eaten at Comet pizza and ping pong, used to live just down the street from it. The whole Pizzagate thing led to a nut shooting the place up.  Because people were claiming sex trafficking where there was none.

The situations are far from identical, these were obviously prostitution fronts... But no charges of trafficking yet still.  Just saw a big bust in Seattle over the weekend... Also shouting "trafficking" from the rooftops. 3 and a half year investigation let to 6 people charged with promoting prostitution and money laundering. No one charged with trafficking.

I mean, 3.5 years they watched women enslaved and then they still can't charge anyone for it?

Color me skeptical, but I feel like authorities trot out the sex trafficking to justify expenses and make headlines when they're really just busting prostitution.

 
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So, I think we can safely say that Kraft was not directly involved with anyone who was trafficked, at least during his 2 documented visits to Orchid.

We already knew 1 was a manager and is being charged for that.  The other was a 58 year old lady, who many assumed wasn't a victim of trafficking.  Well, it's come out now that the Jupiter police haven't charged her at this point, however they have seized 2 of her bank accounts.  I'm going to go on record and state that someone held in sexual servitude would not have 1, let alone 2, bank accounts of her own.  So, Kraft was just seeing prostitutes.

Everyone who was saying Kraft DEFINITELY knew these women were trafficked because he was a large donor to anti-trafficking charities and would know the signs, care to recant or adjust your views on that?

And now that we KNOW he wasn't seeing sex slaves, I kinda feel bad for the guy.  Not too bad, his life is probably way better than mine will ever be, but still, dragged through the mud publicly over something that has no business being a crime.

 
(HULK) said:
So, I think we can safely say that Kraft was not directly involved with anyone who was trafficked, at least during his 2 documented visits to Orchid.

We already knew 1 was a manager and is being charged for that.  The other was a 58 year old lady, who many assumed wasn't a victim of trafficking.  Well, it's come out now that the Jupiter police haven't charged her at this point, however they have seized 2 of her bank accounts.  I'm going to go on record and state that someone held in sexual servitude would not have 1, let alone 2, bank accounts of her own.  So, Kraft was just seeing prostitutes.

Everyone who was saying Kraft DEFINITELY knew these women were trafficked because he was a large donor to anti-trafficking charities and would know the signs, care to recant or adjust your views on that?

And now that we KNOW he wasn't seeing sex slaves, I kinda feel bad for the guy.  Not too bad, his life is probably way better than mine will ever be, but still, dragged through the mud publicly over something that has no business being a crime.
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Let me say, I find you very persuasive and I have completely respected your points. But I don't think people made the claim that Kraft was being tended to by slavery victims. I think the point was that he was patronizing a place that had slaves. I made the point further up or tried to that such places could be run by organized crime. I'm not castigating anyone or blaming patrons or judging them. I'm just saying this place was investigated for and apparently is indeed implicated in a sex trafficking and money laundering operation, and Kraft, having certainly been educated on the subject far far more than most people, should have known that was a very good possibility.

Now I am perfectly willing to defer, and thought I had deferred, on your point on withholding judgement, however I think absolving Kraft is similarly not called for. Not only because of his education on the issue but also because of the factual assumption that the two women he was serviced by were the sole total of his experiences with and knowledge of the place. 

 
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IC FBGCav said:
So they have to admit to getting off to get off?  
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it sounds like it is a trade wasting time and money in court for a minimal sentence. 

The fact that he has to effectively plead "guilty" to the original charges does make me wonder whether they will take the deal. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Let me say, I find you very persuasive and I have completely respected your points. But I don't think people made the claim that Kraft was being tended to by slavery victims. I think the point was that he was patronizing a place that had slaves. I made the point further up or tried to that such places could be run by organized crime. I'm not castigating anyone or blaming patrons or judging them. I'm just saying this place was investigated for and apparently is indeed implicated in a sex trafficking and money laundering operation, and Kraft, having certainly been educated on the subject far far more than most people, should have known that was a very good possibility.

Now I am perfectly willing to defer, and thought I had deferred, on your point on withholding judgement, however I think absolving Kraft is similarly not called for. Not only because of his education on the issue but also because of the factual assumption that the two women he was serviced by were the sole total of his experiences with and knowledge of the place. 
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Orchids of Asia has still, as of today, not been connected to sex trafficking.  Unless the WSJ is wrong:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/florida-prosecutors-offer-to-drop-charges-against-patriots-owner-robert-kraft-11553014972

Any connection that has been brought up in this thread was a result of people conflating which lady worked where or owned which spa.  I realize that Americans often have difficulties distinguishing between Asian names and faces, but the fact is, as of today there is still zero charges tying Orchids of Asia to see trafficking, and zero evidence released of it either.  There were statements made by the DA that were walked back, and nothing else. So, while there may have been trafficking in that spa, there is zero reason at present to just assume there was.

 
(HULK) said:
but the fact is, as of today there is still zero charges tying Orchids of Asia to see trafficking, and zero evidence released of it either.  There were statements made by the DA that were walked back, and nothing else. So, while there may have been trafficking in that spa, there is zero reason at present to just assume there was.
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Yep. 

 
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