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Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant said:
That's what's frustrating. There are people arguing the work is "consensual" and transactional. That might be true for some of the high priced market. My understanding is the $79 spa market is basically slavery.
It’s a gray area. Does anyone, want to be working in the worlds oldest profession?  Does the high priced prostitute really want to do what he/she does, any more than the desperate, cheap one, does?   To me, the price is irrelevant. It’s all a form of slavery, whether self imposed, or otherwise.   Why the #### would anyone want to do that for a living?  

 
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It’s a gray area. Does anyone, want to be working in the worlds oldest profession?  Does the high priced prostitute really want to do what he/she does, any more than the desperate, cheap one, does?   To me, the price is irrelevant. It’s all a form of slavery, whether self imposed, or otherwise.   Why the #### would anyone want to do that for a living?  
I know someone who does. It's not her main source of income. She's in a really affluent area with a lot of wealthy transients. She carries a limited - about a half dozen - amount of clients, all long term.

We've talked about the "whys" a time or two. Her response is basically "I like the people I choose to spend my time with, the money's a nice supplement for a small amount of time, and I like sex". She doesn't advertise and she's almost 50. She also told me that she has advantages and controls that most doing this don't. 

 
It’s a gray area. Does anyone, want to be working in the worlds oldest profession?  Does the high priced prostitute really want to do what he/she does, any more than the desperate, cheap one, does?   To me, the price is irrelevant. It’s all a form of slavery, whether self imposed, or otherwise.   Why the #### would anyone want to do that for a living?  
Why would anyone want to clean port-a-johns for a living?  There are a lot of sick and disgusting jobs out there that people are stuck doing.  Now the human trafficking is not the same thing.  That is pure evil, and there should be punishment for all involved.  The high priced pro probably has other life options available, and because of my looks, would probably charge me extra as hazard pay.   

 
Why did they film trafficking victims?  I still don't get that.  A rub job is like 10 hrs of cleaning sidewalks.  Trafficking is a potential life with.  

 
I know someone who does. It's not her main source of income. She's in a really affluent area with a lot of wealthy transients. She carries a limited - about a half dozen - amount of clients, all long term.

We've talked about the "whys" a time or two. Her response is basically "I like the people I choose to spend my time with, the money's a nice supplement for a small amount of time, and I like sex". She doesn't advertise and she's almost 50. She also told me that she has advantages and controls that most doing this don't. 
The few documentaries I've seen on Netflix depict the high price world similar to the above.  It is depicted as voluntary and similar to the "I like sex" and the "money is great" themes.  One of the documentaries followed a Stanford graduate that actively sought this line of work out, for example.  You can probably find it with a quick Google search.

I think this is a separate conversation than the moderately priced Asian massage parlors.

 
I think this is a separate conversation than the moderately priced Asian massage parlors.
Absolutely. I was just responding to the take that it's all slavery. I don't know what the % is, but people like my friend are in the distinct minority.

 
Extortion is one reason. Another is watching out for cops or customers getting rough.
also, I think the filming is part of building a much bigger case.  They are not looking to sting a single person, but were building a state wide type of case where they likely needed a mountain of evidence to make sure they could convict across the board.

The videos are just a more advanced form of old fashioned wire tapping.

 
also, I think the filming is part of building a much bigger case.  They are not looking to sting a single person, but were building a state wide type of case where they likely needed a mountain of evidence to make sure they could convict across the board.

The videos are just a more advanced form of old fashioned wire tapping.
If this is the case i have to assume minors are not involved here?

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
Whenever local law enforcement busts one of these places the women are always in their 40s or 50s.  I find that very strange.
Kind of what I was thinking.  Are we sure he wasn't just having sex with some 40 something year old Asian woman who was doing it at her own free will?

Did law enforcement say for sure that underage and/or human trafficking was involved here?  Is it just speculation at this point?

 
So Wessel, Childs, and Kraft are roughly the same age and big Boys and Girls Club benefactors.  Cool.  Great group. 
I don't know how rich Wessel is, but he's obviously prominent in the community. To their credit the police published the names of the persons caught up in this, though looking through the local coverage I don't see Kraft or Childs. Wessel is in there though.  

 
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also, I think the filming is part of building a much bigger case.  They are not looking to sting a single person, but were building a state wide type of case where they likely needed a mountain of evidence to make sure they could convict across the board.

The videos are just a more advanced form of old fashioned wire tapping.
Jupiter police obtained body camera video of the sex acts, according to Andrew Sharp, the lead detective on the investigation. “The video that we obtained -- it shows the act that took place,” he said. “On every gentlemen you have on the list, the act is recorded on that video.”
Sorry maybe I misunderstood the question or maybe the facts, but I was under the impression spas were doing the taping, not the cops. I just took it that the cops seized video, so I thought the question was why would the spas be taping.

 
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Did law enforcement say for sure that underage and/or human trafficking was involved here?  Is it just speculation at this point?
yes, the police were very clear in that the multi site ring being investigated was based on trafficking.  But they did not mention minors in any of the statements I read.

 
Sorry maybe I misunderstood the question or maybe the facts, but I was under the impression spas were doing the taping, not the cops. I just took it that the cops seized video, so I thought the question was why would the spas be taping.
The police obtained a warrant to secretly setup video cameras in the establishments as part of their investigation.

 
yes, the police were very clear in that the multi site ring being investigated was based on trafficking.  But they did not mention minors in any of the statements I read.
One of the articles I read indicated that at least two of the men arrested had come in believing they’d arranged sex with a fourteen year old. I don’t believe there was a statement that an actual fourteen year old was involved in that. 

However one of the arrestees was arrested for bringing a 17 year old girl in to get her into prostitution. 

Edit: found it

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/polk-county-detectives-arrest-103-suspects-in-human-trafficking-operation

 
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So the cops put the cameras in and let this go.  If there were underage or trafficking no way this happens.  Right?  They wouldn't just sit there knowing it. The ethics implications are huge. 

 
One of the articles I read indicated that at least two of the men arrested had come in believing they’d arranged sex with a fourteen year old. I don’t believe there was a statement that an actual fourteen year old was involved in that. 

However one of the arrestees was arrested for bringing a 17 year old girl in to get her into prostitution. 

Edit: found it

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/polk-county-detectives-arrest-103-suspects-in-human-trafficking-operation
JFC 

 
So the cops put the cameras in and let this go.  If there were underage or trafficking no way this happens.  Right?  They wouldn't just sit there knowing it. The ethics implications are huge. 
When you build these multi site wire tap cases, the goal is to take the whole ring down at once.  They can't jump at the first sign of illegal activity else they risk destroying the case.   

I can't speak to the ethics of the situation, but if the goal is to take down an entire ring (be it drugs, organized crime, prostitution etc), they have to build a case full of evidence.

 
When you build these multi site wire tap cases, the goal is to take the whole ring down at once.  They can't jump at the first sign of illegal activity else they risk destroying the case.   

I can't speak to the ethics of the situation, but if the goal is to take down an entire ring (be it drugs, organized crime, prostitution etc), they have to build a case full of evidence.
Yup. Cops have to let some pretty insane stuff happen to take out huge groups like this.  

 
Good Lord can't we collectively put our big boy and girl pants on and legalize prostitution already? It wouldn't eliminate human trafficking but it would put a big dent in the trade in this country.

Above board, legal protections for the workers, they become part of the tax base, safer, healthier etc.

We are seriously one the most uptight countries on the planet.

 
Good Lord can't we collectively put our big boy and girl pants on and legalize prostitution already? It wouldn't eliminate human trafficking but it would put a big dent in the trade in this country.

Above board, legal protections for the workers, they become part of the tax base, safer, healthier etc.

We are seriously one the most uptight countries on the planet.
Yep. We is dumb.

 
Good Lord can't we collectively put our big boy and girl pants on and legalize prostitution already? It wouldn't eliminate human trafficking but it would put a big dent in the trade in this country.

Above board, legal protections for the workers, they become part of the tax base, safer, healthier etc.

We are seriously one the most uptight countries on the planet.
:goodposting:

There are certainly lobbies that will fight this tooth and nail, but it is the only pragmatic solution.  Other first world countries have taken this path.

 
I am still stuck on "why"

What possible upside did Kraft have for waking into that place? 

Even if he had a favorite girl, just get a hotel room and pay three times the going rate for her to come to the hotel room.

Even if Kraft thought he had 100% privacy inside the establishment, he had to have known that any yokel with a phone could have recorded him walking in.

 
When you build these multi site wire tap cases, the goal is to take the whole ring down at once.  They can't jump at the first sign of illegal activity else they risk destroying the case.   

I can't speak to the ethics of the situation, but if the goal is to take down an entire ring (be it drugs, organized crime, prostitution etc), they have to build a case full of evidence.
That's bull#### then. If a kid is getting in middle of this you get them out.  

 
That's bull#### then. If a kid is getting in middle of this you get them out.  
I can't speak to when they break their own rules on this stuff, but this has been the way the big cases work, going back to at least 1970 when RICO was formed.  It may go back even before that.

 
I am still stuck on "why"

What possible upside did Kraft have for waking into that place? 

Even if he had a favorite girl, just get a hotel room and pay three times the going rate for her to come to the hotel room.

Even if Kraft thought he had 100% privacy inside the establishment, he had to have known that any yokel with a phone could have recorded him walking in.
But if he’s caught in a hotel room he’s guilty.  If he’s caught in a massage parlor it’s pretty hard to prove he was soliciting. 

You know, unless they have it on video. 

 
One of the articles I read indicated that at least two of the men arrested had come in believing they’d arranged sex with a fourteen year old. I don’t believe there was a statement that an actual fourteen year old was involved in that. 

However one of the arrestees was arrested for bringing a 17 year old girl in to get her into prostitution. 

Edit: found it

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/polk-county-detectives-arrest-103-suspects-in-human-trafficking-operation
Maybe just maybe, people might agree this is exploitation when they read about the 14 year olds. 

 
By the way, folks, this is one very simple way anyone who is involved with legal matters with child exploitation knew pizzagate was a hoax. Look at the actual country’s reaction to actual underage prostitution and trafficking with actual powerful people involved.

 
It is very seldom “the cops won’t do anything so Twitter must!”  With obvious rare exceptions, cops who work these things will endure, witness, and push to prosecute about anything to knock out these kinds of operations.  It’s the public that really doesn’t care. The cops are heroes who die young and depressed, often at their own hands, from what they witness and go through. 

 
By the way, folks, this is one very simple way anyone who is involved with legal matters with child exploitation knew pizzagate was a hoax. Look at the actual country’s reaction to actual underage prostitution and trafficking with actual powerful people involved.
Is there any evidence that Kraft is involved in the human trafficking or kid stuff?

 
Is there any evidence that Kraft is involved in the human trafficking or kid stuff?
Nope.  

He just happens to be one of a few billionaires who goes to a strip mall sex trafficking location that is willing to procure underage rape victims.  There’s no evidence he has requested one. 

 
Good Lord can't we collectively put our big boy and girl pants on and legalize prostitution already? It wouldn't eliminate human trafficking but it would put a big dent in the trade in this country.

Above board, legal protections for the workers, they become part of the tax base, safer, healthier etc.

We are seriously one the most uptight countries on the planet.
:goodposting:  I wonder too how it would effect violent crime in this country.  I would think it would go down, particularly mass shootings. 

I think the mental health of sexual mature males, particularly those who don't have an outlet, is something that really needs to be discussed. 

 
By the way, folks, this is one very simple way anyone who is involved with legal matters with child exploitation knew pizzagate was a hoax. Look at the actual country’s reaction to actual underage prostitution and trafficking with actual powerful people involved.
So I'm clear, how are you seeing the reaction to the Kraft issue? 

 
“How embarrassing that he got caught paying for a rub and tug.”
Thanks. I'm trying to get a good gauge on how the public is responding. 

I've seen a lot of both sides. 

The hinge issue seems for the guys I know that are minimizing it, all seem to fall on the side of the women working at these places are there by choice. It's like the poster who posted earlier about his friend that does this work in the high price range and she's cool with it.

My argument is 1) even the high priced market has some weird and dangerous dependency type issues. and 2) the high price market is wildly different for the women involved than the $79 spa market. 

 
Thanks. I'm trying to get a good gauge on how the public is responding. 

I've seen a lot of both sides. 

The hinge issue seems for the guys I know that are minimizing it, all seem to fall on the side of the women working at these places are there by choice. It's like the poster who posted earlier about his friend that does this work in the high price range and she's cool with it.

My argument is 1) even the high priced market has some weird and dangerous dependency type issues. and 2) the high price market is wildly different for the women involved than the $79 spa market. 
The average age female sex worker gets into the industry is about fourteen or fifteen.  

Not much room for many women who grew up and then decided to do this in a healthy way. 

 
Kraft and the Patriots donated $1.6 million to sexual exploitation and trafficking causes a few years ago. 

If he was just a customer that went somewhere I doubt much will become of it. If somehow he knew the place was involved in human trafficking and intentionally went there, that’s obviously a different ballgame.

 
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New Orleans had a brothel scandal a few years back. It had a wide variety of clientele. Poor guys, musicians, blue collar types.... also judges, lawyers, doctors politicians... it had references from high end hotels here in NO too. And it was mafia run and ultimately connected to some key touchpoints in business and politics. Rep/Sen. David Vitter just for example, and he also went to a brothel in DC. It was ultimately connected to other locations in Miami & NYC.

Sorry why the hell do people think these places and these sorts of enterprises exist and aren’t touched for years. Do you think the cops really don’t know about them? I can tell you they do. We had a ‘spa’ down here in the Quarter, and it had some cop clientele. 

The fact is that very rich and powerful men get confidentiality and special services from these places. This is a thing in the world, it exists, occasionally it gets exposed, I guess for various reasons. Why it happened here remains to be seen but I doubt it’s just a ‘clean up the neighborhood’ operation.

 
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The average age female sex worker gets into the industry is about fourteen or fifteen.  

Not much room for many women who grew up and then decided to do this in a healthy way. 
I know that.

It's getting that point across to others. 

It's essentially the same point I was making in the reparations thread. It seems like we need to be able to make a compelling, clear and concise message to deal with this. 

 

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