Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

You are ignoring the possibility that somebody as high profile as Robert Kraft may have had the intention of wanting to engage in an act of soliticing just plain prostitution without thinking/or the knowledge that he was engaging in an act of of human trafficking.  It's possible he wanted more than a "massage" but didn't want to go to random spots because of his high profile.  You don't think it's possible that one of his rich buddies told him "hey--come down to this discrete spot in Florida--I've been there before and so far my dealings have been kept secret and under the radar"?   

The fact is that every day--virtually every American unknowingly supports people, organizations, trade partners that are engaged in terrible activities.  It is unfair to DIRECTLY link these indiscretions and terrible activities to the end consumer.  I'm sure that you have purchased plenty of items that are made in China and Japan. Does that mean that you directly are supporting child labor law violations, a blatant disregard to the environment, illegal whaling--and hundreds of other atrocities?   In fact--most of us purchase things from these countries clearly knowing there is some indiscretion present in their places of origin--and you seem to ignore that dynamic altogether.   Why do you hold Kraft to a level above what you would hold yourself and any other citizen to?

If it comes out that Kraft knew exactly what was going on in that particular parlor (if there was indeed human trafficking)--then I absolutely agree with you.   With that said--Krafts clear knowledge at the time is the line that separates this from being an act of prostitution versus an an elicit act of supporting human trafficking. As of now--trying to digest what Kraft clearly knew at the time is nothing more than a guess--but your posts make it seem like Kraft's knowledge is clearly established. That is just not the case at this moment.   We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one--but regardless--I appreciate the discussion.   

He’s a megadonor to human trafficking charity. 

If he didn’t know this was almost certainly human trafficking after God knows how many visits he’s an idiot.  I don’t think he’s an idiot. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

He’s a megadonor to human trafficking charity. 

If he didn’t know this was almost certainly human trafficking after God knows how many visits he’s an idiot.  I don’t think he’s an idiot. 

So let me ask you this. If he is a "mega donor" against human trafficking and his donations against it exponentially outweigh his contributions that you allege he made supporting it---what is your point?   Your take seems more hypocritical than what Kraft allegedly did.  If somebody donated millions of dollars to fight against the cartel, but got caught doing a line of coke while partying in Vegas--does that mean that person is now a full on supporter of the cartel?  According to you---a single line of coke or a couple of sexual acts far outweigh millions of dollars donated by a man against those things.   

It's not as clear and simple as you are making it out to be or attempting to make it out to be.   In any case--once more information comes out--I think we can all be in a better position to make an accurate assessment. Until then-- directly linking Kraft to being a knowing and direct supporter of human trafficking in this instance is nothing more than an opinion or hot take.   You seem to be packaging it and selling it as if it were a fact at this point in time.   In any case--I feel like we are both hijacking this thread.   I think we've both made our points clearly and there is no real reason to go back and forth any further.  

 

[Henry Ford]

So let me ask you this. If he is a "mega donor" against human trafficking and his donations against it exponentially outweigh his contributions that you allege he made supporting it---what is your point?   Your take seems more hypocritical than what Kraft allegedly did.  If somebody donated millions of dollars to fight against the cartel, but got caught doing a line of coke while partying in Vegas--does that mean that person is now a full on supporter of the cartel?  According to you---a single line of coke or a couple of sexual acts far outweigh millions of dollars donated by a man against those things.   

It's not as clear and simple as you are making it out to be or attempting to make it out to be.   In any case--once more information comes out--I think we can all be in a better position to make an accurate assessment. Until then-- directly linking Kraft to being a knowing and direct supporter of human trafficking in this instance is nothing more than an opinion or hot take.   You seem to be packaging it and selling it as if it were a fact at this point in time.   In any case--I feel like we are both hijacking this thread.   I think we've both made our points clearly and there is no real reason to go back and forth any further.  

My point is that you can’t buy an indulgence for purchasing sex slaves. This isn’t the Catholic Church in the 1500s. 

 

[pantherclub]

He’s a megadonor to human trafficking charity. 

If he didn’t know this was almost certainly human trafficking after God knows how many visits he’s an idiot.  I don’t think he’s an idiot. 

Maybe since he is so knowledgeable about trafficking he did his research on this particular place and knew it was on the up.  I mean he hooked up with a couple of 50 year olds.

 

[Henry Ford]

Maybe since he is so knowledgeable about trafficking he did his research on this particular place and knew it was on the up.  I mean he hooked up with a couple of 50 year olds.

It wasn’t on the up.  Read upthread. 

 

[culdeus]

Is it the fact that there is no middle man that has so many triggered here?  

Diamonds have a arguably higher personal toll than even sex work, but we get them from a high school dropout at the mall so it's cool?

Most of our clothes are produced in the same way as are our iPhones and electronics.  

Nobody is a saint. We all exploit child and migrant labor every single day.  Try to do better.  Legalize sex work is a start to making those lives better.  

 

[pantherclub]

It wasn’t on the up.  Read upthread. 

That was meant to be sarcastic 

 

[Henry Ford]

That was meant to be sarcastic 

My apologies.  On this topic in particular in America, Poe’s Law is so powerful as to make satire impossible. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Is it the fact that there is no middle man that has so many triggered here?  

Diamonds have a arguably higher personal toll than even sex work, but we get them from a high school dropout at the mall so it's cool?

Most of our clothes are produced in the same way as are our iPhones and electronics.  

Nobody is a saint. We all exploit child and migrant labor every single day.  Try to do better.  Legalize sex work is a start to making those lives better.  

No, it’s pretty much the human trafficking that has me upset.  

 

[[icon]]

Is it the fact that there is no middle man that has so many triggered here?  

Diamonds have a arguably higher personal toll than even sex work, but we get them from a high school dropout at the mall so it's cool?

Most of our clothes are produced in the same way as are our iPhones and electronics.  

Nobody is a saint. We all exploit child and migrant labor every single day.  Try to do better.  Legalize sex work is a start to making those lives better.  

This  

Everyone in here has “endorsed” slave labor via their wallet. 

This is so stupid. Slap the wrists of the Johns, help the trafficked women, bury the pimps under the jail. This isn’t hard. 

 

[Henry Ford]

This  

Everyone in here has “endorsed” slave labor via their wallet. 

This is so stupid. Slap the wrists of the Johns, help the trafficked women, bury the pimps under the jail. This isn’t hard. 

And the traffickers.....?

 

[culdeus]

No, it’s pretty much the human trafficking that has me upset.  

There are far better ways to focus your energy on this topic then.  Start with your own personal purchase decisions.  Odds are you impacted today just as many people as Kraft.  

 

[Henry Ford]

There are far better ways to focus your energy on this topic then.  Start with your own personal purchase decisions.  Odds are you impacted today just as many people as Kraft.  

You should definitely educate me on the ways I can maybe help people who have been impacted by human trafficking.  I’m sure you understand it better and do a lot more than I do in my actual life.  What would you suggest?

 

[eoMMan]

This is the hallmark of a legitimate establishment. 

HF, you said this in regards to Judge Smalls comment about getting massages from licensed massage therapists....

Yet..

Most news sources are citing that the women (or woman) involved with Kraft were licensed massage therapists.

 

[Henry Ford]

HF, you said this in regards to Judge Smalls comment about getting massages from licensed massage therapists....

Yet..

Most news sources are citing that the women (or woman) involved with Kraft were licensed massage therapists.

I said this with respect to all of the therapists at a massage parlor having licenses.  

That is not the case at Orchids of Asia. 

 

[Sheriff Bart]

while I don't buy it fully, one of the running themes here in Boston is that he has some early form of dementia.  There have supposedly been many "questionable" acts he has done the last couple of years that have left people scratching their heads as to what form of judgement he has left.

One item the press was focusing on was his incredible lack of judgement to get stopped by the cops one day and go right back the next day.

As someone that has lost multiple loved ones to Alzheimer's, I'm sick and tired of this excuse for an older person. It doesn't exactly work they way and is BS. 

 

[[icon]]

And the traffickers.....?

File under “pimps”

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

While I don't disagree with you-- I do think that you are making some stretches here.  You seem to imply that Robert Kraft is a supporter of human trafficking whether or not he knowingly had knowledge of human trafficking before he exchanged compensation for acts of intimacy.  Not every act of prostitution is an act of human trafficking or rape.   Law enforcement with teams of people working the case for weeks are only now possibly making ties between the parlor that Kraft went to and human trafficking.  You think Kraft clearly knew that this parlor was tied to human trafficking?  I don't assume that and as of now--I don't think he did.   Optically--to me it comes across that you find Kraft just as guilty as the parlor when it comes to trafficking--and this is where I disagree.  If he thought he was paying a consenting adult for sexual services--I don't think what he did was wrong.  There is far more outrage being directed to him than there seems to be the actual parlor and traffickers--and this is what I have a problem with.  If it comes out that he glaringly knew that this parlor was involved with human trafficking--that would be a different story.  

I realize you dropped the point (agreed to disagree) I just think this is a useful post.

I’d agree ‘knowingly’ should be a requirement before condemning Kraft.... but how does he give millions (?) (please provide the number) to a cause and have zero clue about how that cause exists in the world? Is he totally uneducated on a subject he gives millions to? 

I know this seems crass, but just as a comp if you gave thousands or even hundreds to fight animal cruelty, would you just up and say ‘oh I’d love a pit bull, they’re so cute’ and then go to a seller in a rough part of town who has pit bulls for sale in his backyard for $400? 

I think knowingly/unknowingly applies to regular joes who just view it as part of life and are uneducated on the subject. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Both the woman charged with human trafficking and the manager of Orchids of Asia who started to cooperate on human trafficking until a lawyer who spoke Mandarin came in from New York to talk to her began sex work in this country in the same city in New York.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/multiple-women-busted-in-robert-kraft-prostitution-case-began-sex-work-in-flushing/

>>“If this is what we think and the tentacles reach organized crime outside this country, how is this attorney showing up who has no real connection to her? Is he trying to quiet her up?”

The federal Department of Homeland Security is investigating the web of organized crime and prostitution that stretches from China through Flushing and Florida, Dougherty said, including whether massage workers were in the US illegally.

He said Zhu’s Florida rub-and-tug joints moved “incredible amounts of money” through China.<<

- Folks, this is organized crime.

 

[Henry Ford]

File under “pimps”

How do you intend to find, identify, and prosecute them?

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I realize you dropped the point (agreed to disagree) I just think this is a useful post.

I’d agree ‘knowingly’ should be a requirement before condemning Kraft.... but how does he give millions (?) (please provide the number) to a cause and have zero clue about how that cause exists in the world? Is he totally uneducated on a subject he gives millions to? 

I know this seems crass, but just as a comp if you gave thousands or even hundreds to fight animal cruelty, would you just up and say ‘oh I’d love a pit bull, they’re so cute’ and then go to a seller in a rough part of town who has pit bulls for sale in his backyard for $400? 

I think knowingly/unknowingly applies to regular joes who just view it as part of life and are uneducated on the subject. 

Do you think that every massage parlor where "happy endings" occur is involved in human trafficking?  My guess is that some of them are but I assure you that plenty of them are certainly not.   I can absolutely assure you that there is no shortage of willing men and women around the world (and in this country) that voluntarily and willingly exchange acts of intimacy for compensation.    There is no rarity of voluntary employment in the oldest profession of mankind.    I don't think that there is anything wrong with somebody being anti-human trafficking while at the same time having no problem with good old prostitution.   Saying that two consenting adults can have all of the sex they want for free is okay--but those same two consenting adults agreeing to have sex in exchange for payment is illegal-is a fairly absurd dynamic. For me to be mad at Kraft--I'd need to know that he knowingly knew that this specific parlor was actively involved in human trafficking before I call what he did more than engaging in soliciting prostitution (which to me is a "nothingburger" crime as Joe would say).  

Being that teams of police officers and government officials have been working this case for weeks/months-- and until only recently seem to indicate that there might be tangential ties to human trafficking to me shows that somebody that had visited that place a few times for a 20-30 minute session would have a nearly impossible time differentiating if they were merely participating in a regular act of prostitution or if they were supporting a human trafficker.  This is why I think trying to blame the "johns" for human trafficking is blatantly flawed.  The people to be upset about are the organizations that are the actual human traffickers. Trying to deter and prosecute every act of prostitution under the guise that "well it could have some sort of tie to human trafficking" is a ridiculous way to try to solve the problem of human trafficking.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Do you think that every massage parlor where "happy endings" occur is involved in human trafficking?  My guess is that some of them are but I assure you that plenty of them are certainly not.   I can absolutely assure you that there is no shortage of willing men and women around the world (and in this country) that voluntarily and willingly exchange acts of intimacy for compensation.    There is no rarity of voluntary employment in the oldest profession of mankind.    I don't think that there is anything wrong with somebody being anti-human trafficking while at the same time having no problem with good old prostitution.   Saying that two consenting adults can have all of the sex they want for free is okay--but those same two consenting adults agreeing to have sex in exchange for payment is illegal-is a fairly absurd dynamic. For me to be mad at Kraft--I'd need to know that he knowingly knew that this specific parlor was actively involved in human trafficking before I call what he did more than engaging in soliciting prostitution (which to me is a "nothingburger" crime as Joe would say).  

Being that teams of police officers and government officials have been working this case for weeks/months-- and until only recently seem to indicate that there might be tangential ties to human trafficking to me shows that somebody that had visited that place a few times for a 20-30 minute session would have a nearly impossible time differentiating if they were merely participating in a regular act of prostitution or if they were supporting a human trafficker.  This is why I think trying to blame the "johns" for human trafficking is blatantly flawed.  The people to be upset about are the organizations that are the actual human traffickers. Trying to deter and prosecute every act of prostitution under the guise that "well it could have some sort of tie to human trafficking" is a ridiculous way to try to solve the problem of human trafficking.  

Just up front - I am not a Kraft hater, a Brady hater or a Pats hater. I admire the franchise and let's just say I'm not a Goodell fan, which includes what he did to Brady for the deflation scandal. - I just feel a need to point that out, I don't have some agenda.

As for Kraft, my point is that I think Henry is right about the megadonor piece. I'm not entirely sure how much Kraft has given but I take it it's in the way of hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions? You don't do that kind of thing without seeing hours of education on films and presentations. This guy has sat through it all, I'm sure, and he doesn't give his money up blithely, I'm sure. Are you seriously going to make an argument that Kraft, who is educated on the subject, has some nuanced explanation for why street prostitution is ok but sex trafficking is not, and then also he somehow does not realize how sex trafficking is practiced in the US? I don't even know how you get past a sentence seriously.

And I specifically tried to distinguish Kraft from regular johns. I actually looked over the lists and pics from the local paper when this came out. I saw a lot of blue collar and 9-5 guys. One of them is even disabled. I'm not blaming them. - Aside from Kraft's knowledge of how trafficking works, which is my main point, I do have a problem with the rich and mighty doing this. These are men who are in positions of social responsibility. I'm not castigating people who go to these joints generally, but let's face it if you are a man in a position of social influence you know perfectly well that regular people can be busted for this stuff. Meanwhile the richest if for some bizarre reason they do get nabbed can get out of it. The fact that Kraft knows how these things work, both on a trafficking and accountability perspective, is really just another level. I admit that maybe my own POV is shaded on this because locally I happen to know about the organized crime connections about a few of these places. I wouldn't contribute to it just for that reason (even if I did have a desire to outside my marriage, which I don't).

 

[Henry Ford]

Do you think that every massage parlor where "happy endings" occur is involved in human trafficking?  My guess is that some of them are but I assure you that plenty of them are certainly not.   I can absolutely assure you that there is no shortage of willing men and women around the world (and in this country) that voluntarily and willingly exchange acts of intimacy for compensation.    There is no rarity of voluntary employment in the oldest profession of mankind.    I don't think that there is anything wrong with somebody being anti-human trafficking while at the same time having no problem with good old prostitution.   Saying that two consenting adults can have all of the sex they want for free is okay--but those same two consenting adults agreeing to have sex in exchange for payment is illegal-is a fairly absurd dynamic. For me to be mad at Kraft--I'd need to know that he knowingly knew that this specific parlor was actively involved in human trafficking before I call what he did more than engaging in soliciting prostitution (which to me is a "nothingburger" crime as Joe would say).  

Being that teams of police officers and government officials have been working this case for weeks/months-- and until only recently seem to indicate that there might be tangential ties to human trafficking to me shows that somebody that had visited that place a few times for a 20-30 minute session would have a nearly impossible time differentiating if they were merely participating in a regular act of prostitution or if they were supporting a human trafficker.  This is why I think trying to blame the "johns" for human trafficking is blatantly flawed.  The people to be upset about are the organizations that are the actual human traffickers. Trying to deter and prosecute every act of prostitution under the guise that "well it could have some sort of tie to human trafficking" is a ridiculous way to try to solve the problem of human trafficking.  

Every? No.  If you include sexual exploitation in general (that includes fraud, coercion, violence and threats used to get women to perform sexual services without moving the woman from one area, country, or state to another) then the vast majority of massage parlors where you can get "happy endings" from whomever your masseuse is (that is - it's not one woman who does this outside of the knowledge of management - it's the business model) are involved in sexual exploitation.

However, the top two human trafficking operations in this country - not just sexual human trafficking, but human trafficking in general - are escorts and massage parlors.  Hands down.  Finding a massage parlor built around sexual services that isn't involved in sexual exploitation is like finding a drug dealer who just does it enough to get free weed. It's not the usual situation.

 

[Henry Ford]

Polaris report from over a year ago:

Over 9,000 illicit massage parlors in the U.S. involved in human trafficking.  

“Typically, they come in from Flushing, New York and Philadelphia is a main stopping point for the trafficking to occur,” said Rochelle Keyhan, Director of Disruption Strategies at Polaris. 

Business Insider from 2014:

The United States has a complex network of "massage parlors" that are fronts for prostitution and truck women across the country to have sex for money, according to a new report on America's sex economy.

The Urban Institute's new report examines how these massage parlors operate in eight different cities, noting they often operate in a "circuit" of cities.

Dallas, Texas, for example, is networked with parlors in Queens, N.Y., Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Atlanta.

The purpose of shipping prostitutes from massage parlor to massage parlor is "to keep clients interested," the report found.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Just up front - I am not a Kraft hater, a Brady hater or a Pats hater. I admire the franchise and let's just say I'm not a Goodell fan, which includes what he did to Brady for the deflation scandal. - I just feel a need to point that out, I don't have some agenda.

As for Kraft, my point is that I think Henry is right about the megadonor piece. I'm not entirely sure how much Kraft has given but I take it it's in the way of hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions? You don't do that kind of thing without seeing hours of education on films and presentations. This guy has sat through it all, I'm sure, and he doesn't give his money up blithely, I'm sure.

And I specifically tried to distinguish Kraft from regular johns. I actually looked over the lists and pics from the local paper when this came out. I saw a lot of blue collar and 9-5 guys. I'm not blaming them. - Aside from Kraft's knowledge of how trafficking works, which is my main point, I do have a problem with the rich and mighty doing this. These are men who are in positions of social responsibility. I'm not castigating people who go to these joints generally, but let's face it if you are a man in a position of social influence you know perfectly well that regular people can be busted for this stuff. Meanwhile the riches if for some bizarre reason they do get nabbed can get out of it. The fact that Kraft knows how these things work, both on a trafficking and accountability perspective, is really just another level. I admit that maybe my own POV is shaded on this because locally I happen to know about the organized crime connections about a few of these places. I wouldn't contribute to it just for that reason (even if I did have a desire to outside my marriage, which I don't).

I am not a Kraft fan or Patriots fan. I was rooting for the Rams or Saints to win it all this year.  

I also don't think it's fair to prosecute people differently because of their levels of wealth.  Let me ask you this--Kraft has proven in the past that he has shown that he is against human trafficking and has donated a great deal of money to fight it.  Couldn't this fact as strongly (if not more strongly) support that even with his knowledge that he thought he was engaging in prostitution and not human trafficking?   It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are plenty of massage parlors that engage in acts of prostitution where the employees are willing participants.  The point that Im trying to make is that the same dynamic that you mentioned could be looked at two different angles and each one is valid and strong.  

As of this point in time--what he know is that Kraft has absolutely donated a great deal of time, money and resources against human trafficking.  That is a fact.  We also know that he for sure engaged in a couple acts of soliticiing prostitution which COULD have had ties to human trafficking--but it has not been clearly established.  Nothing has come out yet indicating that Kraft specifically had knowledge about any ties to human trafficking before he chose to go there.  As far as I'm concerned--at this point in time--he's a high profile figure that is guilty of soliciting prostitution--which is certainly embarrassing for him and his organizations (because of the way prostitution is looked upon by many in this country).   People need to be prosecuted for the crimes they commit and not be convicted for things they didn't do because of their status, wealth, success levels in life.  In this instance--Kraft was not the trafficker--he was merely a solicitor of prostitution.   It just reads and feels to me that there is a lot of misplaced anger that seems to be pointed towards Kraft almost moreso than the actual traffickers. That is what I have a problem with at this point in time.  If more information comes out indicating that Kraft did have clear knowledge that this place was involved with trafficking--that would absolutely change things.  

In any case--I don't want to hijack the thread once again--as I felt like HF and I did earlier. That certainly was not my intention.  Really--my intention is never to be on the opposite side of an argument vs. HF.  He's in rarified air in this place and I don't think I'll have much support being on the opposite side of the table from him . Lol.    I appreciate the discussion.  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Polaris report from over a year ago:

Over 9,000 illicit massage parlors in the U.S. involved in human trafficking.  

Business Insider from 2014:

Does the report indicate how many massage parlors there are in total in the US? I think that would be very pertinent in establishing and understanding what percentage of parlors that the 9000 figure indicates that would represent. As of last year--there were somewhere between 325000-400000 licensed massage therapists in the US.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Does the report indicate how many massage parlors there are in total in the US? I think that would be very pertinent in establishing and understanding what percentage of parlors that the 9000 figure indicates that would represent. As of last year--there were somewhere between 325000-400000 licensed massage therapists in the US.  

The relevant issue is not how many massage parlors, but at how many you can get illicit services from multiple workers.  That's what we're discussing here.  And I am not aware of those statistics having been compiled as of yet.

 

[Henry Ford]

I am not a Kraft fan or Patriots fan. I was rooting for the Rams or Saints to win it all this year.  

I also don't think it's fair to prosecute people differently because of their levels of wealth.  Let me ask you this--Kraft has proven in the past that he has shown that he is against human trafficking and has donated a great deal of money to fight it.  Couldn't this fact as strongly (if not more strongly) support that even with his knowledge that he thought he was engaging in prostitution and not human trafficking?   It doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are plenty of massage parlors that engage in acts of prostitution where the employees are willing participants.  The point that Im trying to make is that the same dynamic that you mentioned could be looked at two different angles and each one is valid and strong.  

As of this point in time--what he know is that Kraft has absolutely donated a great deal of time, money and resources against human trafficking.  That is a fact.  We also know that he for sure engaged in a couple acts of soliticiing prostitution which COULD have had ties to human trafficking--but it has not been clearly established.  Nothing has come out yet indicating that Kraft specifically had knowledge about any ties to human trafficking before he chose to go there.  As far as I'm concerned--at this point in time--he's a high profile figure that is guilty of soliciting prostitution--which is certainly embarrassing for him and his organizations (because of the way prostitution is looked upon by many in this country).   People need to be prosecuted for the crimes they commit and not be convicted for things they didn't do because of their status, wealth, success levels in life.  In this instance--Kraft was not the trafficker--he was merely a solicitor of prostitution.   It just reads and feels to me that there is a lot of misplaced anger that seems to be pointed towards Kraft almost moreso than the actual traffickers. That is what I have a problem with at this point in time.  If more information comes out indicating that Kraft did have clear knowledge that this place was involved with trafficking--that would absolutely change things.  

In any case--I don't want to hijack the thread once again--as I felt like HF and I did earlier. That certainly was not my intention.  Really--my intention is never to be on the opposite side of an argument vs. HF.  He's in rarified air in this place and I don't think I'll have much support being on the opposite side of the table from him . Lol.    I appreciate the discussion.  

I'd like to hone in on this a bit - there may not be enough proof to get a conviction in a court of law, but unless the sheriff's office is lying about Lixia Zhu's interview and domicile history, it's been established sufficiently to say human trafficking was going on.

Edit: and I don't really think there's any issue with being across the table from me in an argument.  I'm nothing special here, I promise.  This issue isn't about, in my opinion, actual arguments about what is right and what is wrong - it's about people not knowing how prevalent sexual exploitation is in this country.  It's huge.

 

[Henry Ford]

In a vacuum, I have no issues with exchanging sexual acts for money.  The problem is the society we're in and how it works.  I've said before (in this thread, multiple times) I'm for legalizing and heavily regulating the sex trade in this country.  Give workers rights and protections.

As it is right now, sex work in this country is highly abusive and exploitative.  

 

[jvdesigns2002]

The relevant issue is not how many massage parlors, but at how many you can get illicit services from multiple workers.  That's what we're discussing here.  And I am not aware of those statistics having been compiled as of yet.

The total number of illicit parlors versus the total number of the pool of parlors and massage service business is absolutely an important piece of information in establishing how prevalent this problem is relative to the that business sector.   If i said 9000 restaurants in the US sold spoiled food without mentioning what percentage of restaurants that reflected--that would be an incomplete statistic when it comes to painting a picture on how bad a problem is.   I definitely choose to disagree with you that the total number is irrelevant. You have to look at that stats as a whole and not cherry pick what happens to be supportive of your particular position.   

 

[Henry Ford]

The total number of illicit parlors versus the total number of the pool of parlors and massage service business is absolutely an important piece of information in establishing how prevalent this problem is relative to the that business sector.   If i said 9000 restaurants in the US sold spoiled food without mentioning what percentage of restaurants that reflected--that would be an incomplete statistic when it comes to painting a picture on how bad a problem is.   I definitely choose to disagree with you that the total number is irrelevant. You have to look at that stats as a whole and not cherry pick what happens to be supportive of your particular position.   

But the issue isn't "what percentage of massage parlors are involved in human trafficking" it's "what's the likelihood that prostitution services obtained at an illicit massage parlor are related to human trafficking."  

 

[bigbottom]

But the issue isn't "how many massage parlors are involved in human trafficking" it's "what's the likelihood that prostitution services obtained at an illicit massage parlor are related to human trafficking."  

Right. Kraft wasn’t going there to get a massage. 

 

[(HULK)]

Do you know a lot of men who take their underwear off at a strip mall massage parlor?

I'm pages back and don't know if I'll catch up to the thread fully today.

To answer this, I've had massages where I'm wearing nothing but a towel.  That's normal for a massage place.  The only exception is the ones that are on the interior of a mall, they tend to not have private spaces and just rows of massage beds all out in the open, people stay clothed in them.  And places that have a legal requirement to keep clothes on.

But expensive spa at the 4 seasons down to strip mall chain massage place, being naked is pretty standard.

 

[(HULK)]

It was listed earlier in the thread but I forget the exact scenario but in general the police were able to cause a fake scenario that required all people leave the building for a certain time period and then they installed the cameras once everyone left.

They faked a bomb threat.

 

[(HULK)]

So, unless I've missed some news over the weekend, all we still know is that....

-Kraft was observed visiting the spa twice, and was "assisted" by the apparent manager of the spa on both occasions.

-No trafficking activities (underage or otherwise) have been reported from that location as of now.

-The only accusations coming out of the location that Kraft visited were those of soliciting prostitution.

-The only link between the trafficking ring and Kraft is that the particular spa he visited was under observation as part of the wider trafficking ring investigation, but we don't know why. 

Did I miss anything pertinent pertaining to the spa Kraft visited?

I'm curious as to why Orchid was under investigation to begin with. Did they just start looking at all the massage places they could find that had women of a certain race/ethnicity? If so, then maybe they just got lucky (no pun intended) and found not one that was not part of a trafficking ring, but one that was offering prostitutitive  (yes, i made that word up) services. 

A neighboring county was investigating trafficking and pointed this PD at Orchid saying it was similar.  Indicators that it was a prostitution front were present, and ownership/employees were Asian.

Kinda stereotyping IMO.  Prostitution is still a crime though, so that's enough to kick off an investigation.  Then health inspectors seeing that people were likely living in the spa is another reason to consider the possibility of trafficking.

But as for the DA referring to Orchid as part of a trafficking bust constantly, he hasn't shown that to be the case (unless something new has come to light, I'm not caught up on this).

 

[(HULK)]

City inspectors observed that there were sleeping arrangements, bedding, and personal effects/clothing bags in the facility during a business inspection, which made them suspect human trafficking.  

Wrong.  Inspectors were sent AFTER a neighboring county pointed the PD at Orchid for being "similar" to places in their trafficking investigation.

 

[(HULK)]

I know that no police officers I have spoken with get no sexual pleasure from watching footage from prostitution and human trafficking stings at all.  And a group that would specifically be sexually aroused by an act involving Robert Kraft would be an even smaller subset than "sexual please from watching any such act."  Which is a fairly substantial amount of information to take into the discussion.  I'm comfortable with my assessment.

I'd imagine that getting sexual gratification from watching the owner of the Patriots getting sexual gratification is a pretty rare fetish, and likely not common amongst the folks who had to watch these videos.

 

[(HULK)]

I think a few things are at play there.

1. It's 17 pages. Most of what's going to be said was said. 

2. As we talked earlier, most people don't really care too much beyond the initial response. 

3. Once it was determined this particular location didn't seem to be involved in human trafficking, everyone went back to what they're doing. Ignoring the reality human trafficking still happens. It just wasn't right here. So people can feel ok about not caring. 

4. It's business as usual. Kraft was at the Oscars. The general consensus from lots of folks  is  at the nothingburger. 

I really hope we gain 2 things from all of this:

-trafficking IS real, and a real issue in this country.

-Sometimes certain DAs and PDs overstep and infringe upon protected rights in order to make headlines

If you look at what happened in Florida as a whole, both of those things are happening.  Kraft just is tied up in the second bullet, not the first.

 

[(HULK)]

Nothing I've read has determined one way or the other if human trafficking was happening at that location, and in fact the prosecutor said that we would find out if those charges would happen later.

Even though I'm an Orchid trafficking doubter, I still think it is possible.  Book not shut on it.

 

[Henry Ford]

Even though I'm an Orchid trafficking doubter, I still think it is possible.  Book not shut on it.

Keep reading.

 

[(HULK)]

What's the downside?

Cost.  He's going to spend A LOT in legal fees to duck what would probably just be 100 hours of community service.

 

[(HULK)]

Agree then. He's not going to do that. 

Although am I right in thinking it's a slam dunk if there's video? 

I'm surprised those places get much business if that's the known penalty. I assumed it was way less than that. 

I think the video is going to get chucked as inadmissible evidence.

 

[(HULK)]

Lixia Zhu, 48, arrested in connection with the Martin County and Palm Beach County spas and alleged to be a manager of them.  Orchids of Asia is included in that group by the accounts I’m reading.

If this recounting is correct, there is no question in my mind there was human trafficking involved. But I don’t see a definite connection with Orchids yet, it’s muddy.

Zhu wasn't at Orchids, right?

 

[(HULK)]

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2019/02/26/florida-human-sex-trafficking-ring-full-story/2990465002/

Yeah, if Zhu was, as stated here, manager at Orchids, this thing isn’t over by a long shot. 

I thought Orchids was owned by Hua Zhang and managed by Lei Wang (one of the two who spent time w/ Kraft)?

I have no idea if Zhu was associated w/ Orchid, but I haven't seen anything indicating she was.

 

[Henry Ford]

I thought Orchids was owned by Hua Zhang and managed by Lei Wang (one of the two who spent time w/ Kraft)?

I have no idea if Zhu was associated w/ Orchid, but I haven't seen anything indicating she was.

You're literally quoting me posting an article that says she was.

 

[(HULK)]

Both the woman charged with human trafficking and the manager of Orchids of Asia who started to cooperate on human trafficking until a lawyer who spoke Mandarin came in from New York to talk to her began sex work in this country in the same city in New York.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/multiple-women-busted-in-robert-kraft-prostitution-case-began-sex-work-in-flushing/

The link does not say anything about anyone tied to Orchids starting to cooperate and then stopping after being visited by this Mandarin speaking lawyer.

 

[(HULK)]

Well, yeah.  Super common if you’re involved in human trafficking. 

Which it appears Orchids of Asia was by this point. 

Why are you reaching that conclusion?

 

[(HULK)]

It’s even become “sure, some of the parlors involved in this sting were human trafficking, but there’s no evidence the one Robert Kraft went to was human trafficking and the police should be sued for lumping them together like that.”

They should.  My feelings on prostitution and trafficking differ GREATLY based upon the idea of consent.

 

[(HULK)]

I’m trying to be charitable. 

With his position in society, he should know there is a significant, high probability that this is a sex trafficking operation. And when I say high probability, I mean that it would be a massive stroke of luck if it weren’t. 

To go to RW’s suggestion, it would be less like going on eBay and buying car parts than like buying a new iPhone X still in the box for $100 under a freeway overpass from a guy who tells you he can’t take less because that’s what his heroin dealer charges. 

If you're referring to Orchids re: the bolded, I disagree with that assumption.

Not all massage parlor prostitution fronts are the same, and it is ridiculous and racist to assume they are.

 

[(HULK)]

It wasn’t on the up.  Read upthread. 

Dude, you literally have fallen into the Asian names look alike trap.  There is no evidence of trafficking AT ORCHID in ANYTHING you linked.