Roethlisberger - Pro Bowl? (1 Viewer)

[AB in DC]

Based on Football Outsiders' ratings (which take into account quality of defenses faced), Roethlisberger has actually been the 4th-best AFC QB (behind Manning, Brady, and Green) overall, and the 2nd-best on a per-play basis.

Actually, Ben is 5th. Brees is slightly ahead of Ben if you add the passing and running ratings.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Based on Football Outsiders' ratings (which take into account quality of defenses faced), Roethlisberger has actually been the 4th-best AFC QB (behind Manning, Brady, and Green) overall, and the 2nd-best on a per-play basis.

Actually, Ben is 5th. Brees is slightly ahead of Ben if you add the passing and running ratings.

Again, this is something on which I personally would be much more comfortable relying on the "per play" ratings. I don't care about the numbers a guy throwing 50 times a game puts up as opposed to a guy throwing 20 times a game. I want to know what they're doing with the ball when they throw it.However, like Marc pointed out, the voters are more likely to look at the cumulative, and that is what will hurt Roethlisberger.

 

[jurb26]

It may not be fair to Roethlisberger, but Green -has- had more opportunities, and as a result, he may have actually been more valuable to his team than Roethlisberger has been to his.

not sure exactly how you all got on this issue of more valuable to his team, but that rarely means much in pro bowl matters.W-L is tossed out when picking the player's, coach's, and fan's favorite players - that is stat and name recognition driven.

So tell me agian why LT did not make the Pro bowl last year then??? Everyone and their mothers bloody murder because he did not get in for this very reason last year. Hell they were still doing it at the beging of this season.

 

[Marc Levin]

So tell me agian why LT did not make the Pro bowl last year then???

Name recognition.

 

[cstu]

So tell me agian why LT did not make the Pro bowl last year then???

Name recognition.

More Broncos fans than Chargers fans. Picking Portis over LT shows that the voting is done by many fans that don't know football and that it's just a popularity contest.

 

[jurb26]

So tell me agian why LT did not make the Pro bowl last year then???

Name recognition.

More Broncos fans than Chargers fans. Picking Portis over LT shows that the voting is done by many fans that don't know football and that it's just a popularity contest.

The fan vote means very little when it comes down to it. If anything I would say that it was the coaches who made the difference. They have more respect for teams and players who are winning. Not to mention that teams who are winning are in the national spotlight far more often. So even if it was the fans who voted that made the difference, it was the winning football that Den played that got him noticed and the recognition. LT has had more time to build a name for himslef than Portis has, he has been in the league longer. The only reason he hasn't been able to do it is becuase untill now SD has sucked! Winning games makes a difference, simple as that. Look at the Heisman for crying out loud.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Looks like 70% of us were right.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Looks that way. I kind of figured that it would end up being Manning, Brees, and Brady based on cumulative numbers and name recognition, but that doesn't mean they're the 3 that most deserved to go.There's still only 1 QB in the NFL that hasn't lost a game.

 

[scooterg61]

MANNING,BREES,BRADY ALL HAVE LOSSES.. HELL BIG BEN BLEW UP BRADY AND NE.. big ben got hosed24 game winning streak.. better than NE's streakcollege and pro.. whatever still a streak NOONE else can say.. big ben big ben.. he should go

 

[Ghost Rider]

Football is a team sport. Quarterbacks themselves do not win or lose games. Using that logic, Jerome Bettis should have made the Pro Bowl since he hasn't lost a game this year as a starter, right?Manning, Brees and Brady were obvious choices and all deserve to be there. I am still waiting to see a good argument as to why Roethlisberger should have gone other than the one that his team is 13-1, which is meaningless since football is a team sport. If we are going to judge QB's by wins and losses, then you have to judge every other position the same way. Put T.J. Duckett in the Pro Bowl. Why? The Falcons are 11-3, so he should be there, right?

 

[Evilgrin72]

John Clayton listed Ben in his "Pro Bowl Sunbs" column, but added the caveat that it was expected because :a) It's tough for rookies to get Pro Bowl votes from the players and coachesb) Brady was snubbed in the past, thus is getting his just due now.I don't see how either of things relate to the players' performance on the field in 2004, but such is the politics of all-star voting. Big Ben got first alternate, which is pretty freaking good for a rookie. Besides which, I'll take 3 months without a loss over a Pro Bowl appearance any day.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Football is a team sport. Quarterbacks themselves do not win or lose games. Using that logic, Jerome Bettis should have made the Pro Bowl since he hasn't lost a game this year as a starter, right?Manning, Brees and Brady were obvious choices and all deserve to be there. I am still waiting to see a good argument as to why Roethlisberger should have gone other than the one that his team is 13-1, which is meaningless since football is a team sport. If we are going to judge QB's by wins and losses, then you have to judge every other position the same way. Put T.J. Duckett in the Pro Bowl. Why? The Falcons are 11-3, so he should be there, right?

This could not be more wrong.Quarterbacks, and only quarterbacks, are held primarily accountable for a teams wins and losses. They touch the ball on every offensive play. Joe Montana is considered by many to be the greatest quarterback ever. Why? Because he WON BIG GAMES. It had nothing to do with his stats. Dan Fouts has MUCH bigger passing numbers for his career than Montana, but you'll be hard pressed to find more than maybe 5% of people who feel he was a better quarterback.When the media discusses QBs, one of the (if not THE) first things they address is W-L record. You don't hear anyone saying "Randy Moss is 8-5 as a starter this year" or what have you. QB is the ONLY position in which that number is proffered first and foremost. When a coach selects a starting QB, they ALWAYS say "We feel this is the guy that gives us the best chance to win." The QB, fair or not, is always going to take the heat when a team is losing, and reap the glory when a team is winning. It's the nature of the position.If you could say the same about every position, then the Pro Bowl teams would simply be the Steelers and Eagles.

 

[Ghost Rider]

John Clayton listed Ben in his "Pro Bowl Sunbs" column, but added the caveat that it was expected because :a) It's tough for rookies to get Pro Bowl votes from the players and coachesb) Brady was snubbed in the past, thus is getting his just due now.I don't see how either of things relate to the players' performance on the field in 2004, but such is the politics of all-star voting. Big Ben got first alternate, which is pretty freaking good for a rookie. Besides which, I'll take 3 months without a loss over a Pro Bowl appearance any day.

I believe Clayton also said that Manning, Brees and Brady all deserved to go.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Quarterbacks, and only quarterbacks, are held primarily accountable for a teams wins and losses. They touch the ball on every offensive play. Joe Montana is considered by many to be the greatest quarterback ever. Why? Because he WON BIG GAMES. It had nothing to do with his stats. Dan Fouts has MUCH bigger passing numbers for his career than Montana, but you'll be hard pressed to find more than maybe 5% of people who feel he was a better quarterback.When the media discusses QBs, one of the (if not THE) first things they address is W-L record. You don't hear anyone saying "Randy Moss is 8-5 as a starter this year" or what have you. QB is the ONLY position in which that number is proffered first and foremost. When a coach selects a starting QB, they ALWAYS say "We feel this is the guy that gives us the best chance to win." The QB, fair or not, is always going to take the heat when a team is losing, and reap the glory when a team is winning. It's the nature of the position.If you could say the same about every position, then the Pro Bowl teams would simply be the Steelers and Eagles.

That doesn't make it right though. Just because the media likes to judge QB's by wins and losses doesn't make it right or accurate. Is Troy Aikman a better QB than Dan Marino or Dan Fouts? Of course not and you will rarely see anyone say it either. Montana had good numbers as well as the Super Bowl wins. Trust me, if Montana had average numbers, he wouldn't be considered the best of all time based merely off his Super Bowl wins. Instead of just randomly saying Roethlisberger deserves to go, how about making a case as to why he is more deserving than any of the QB's that are going without pointing out w/l records. Why is Roethlisberger more deserving than Brady? Or Brees? Or Manning?

 

[Evilgrin72]

Quarterbacks, and only quarterbacks, are held primarily accountable for a teams wins and losses. They touch the ball on every offensive play. Joe Montana is considered by many to be the greatest quarterback ever. Why? Because he WON BIG GAMES. It had nothing to do with his stats. Dan Fouts has MUCH bigger passing numbers for his career than Montana, but you'll be hard pressed to find more than maybe 5% of people who feel he was a better quarterback.

When the media discusses QBs, one of the (if not THE) first things they address is W-L record. You don't hear anyone saying "Randy Moss is 8-5 as a starter this year" or what have you. QB is the ONLY position in which that number is proffered first and foremost. When a coach selects a starting QB, they ALWAYS say "We feel this is the guy that gives us the best chance to win." The QB, fair or not, is always going to take the heat when a team is losing, and reap the glory when a team is winning. It's the nature of the position.

If you could say the same about every position, then the Pro Bowl teams would simply be the Steelers and Eagles.

That doesn't make it right though. Just because the media likes to judge QB's by wins and losses doesn't make it right or accurate. Is Troy Aikman a better QB than Dan Marino or Dan Fouts? Of course not and you will rarely see anyone say it either. Montana had good numbers as well as the Super Bowl wins. Trust me, if Montana had average numbers, he wouldn't be considered the best of all time based merely off his Super Bowl wins. Instead of just randomly saying Roethlisberger deserves to go, how about making a case as to why he is more deserving than any of the QB's that are going without pointing out w/l records. Why is Roethlisberger more deserving than Brady? Or Brees? Or Manning?

I'm not randomly saying Roethlisberger deserves to go. I have said he deserved to go because he has been making plays when he needs to, has been leading the team on scoring drives to pull out wins, and is good in the stats he needs to be good in.If you were to compare Brady to Roethlisberger, for example : Brady has more yards and more TDs, but has also thrown 136 more passes than Roethlisberger. Naturally, he's going to be better in those categories, based purely on opportunity. It doesn't make him a better QB. Hypothetically, if a QB throws the ball 700 times a season, he's likely to have over 4,000 yards and 40 TDs just based on the sheer volume of throws. Does thatr make him better than a QB who only throws 500 times, but has 3500 yards and 35 TDs? Of course not. The same principles apply here. If you look at stats that are not dependent (or less dependednt at least) on number of throws, such as :

Passer rating (I know you hate this stat) - Brady 90.3 Roethlisberger 96.3

Completion percentage - Brady 59.5% Roethlisberger 66.0%

Yards per attempt (most important stat IMO) - Brady 7.77 Roethlisberger 8.70

Rushing yards/TDs - Brady 22/0 TD Roethlisberger 133/1 TD

Turnovers - Brady 17 Roethlisberger 11

Add to this that Roethlisberger is 12-0 as a starter, as opposed to 12-2 for Brady, he has a higher 3rd down completion percentage, a higher 3rd down passer rating, a higher 4th quarter passer rating, and outplayed Brady in their one head-to-head meeting, and I think those are quite a few reasons that are not random.

Now what, aside from yards, TDs, and name recognition, can you give me regarding why Brady deserves to go over Roethlisberger? Because he got snubbed in the past? Brady is an excellent QB and Roethlisberger doesn't have the experience or the wins to stake a claim to Brady's throne as the top dog in the NFl right now, but based strictly on performance this season, I still think Roethlisberger deserved to go over Brady.

 

[Ghost Rider]

If you were to compare Brady to Roethlisberger, for example : Brady has more yards and more TDs, but has also thrown 136 more passes than Roethlisberger. Naturally, he's going to be better in those categories, based purely on opportunity. It doesn't make him a better QB. 

No, but the argument can be made that New England trusts Brady a lot more than Pittsburgh trusts Roethlisberger, which is why Brady throws a lot more often.

Passer rating (I know you hate this stat) - Brady 90.3 Roethlisberger 96.3Completion percentage - Brady 59.5% Roethlisberger 66.0%Yards per attempt (most important stat IMO) - Brady 7.77 Roethlisberger 8.70Rushing yards/TDs - Brady 22/0 TD Roethlisberger 133/1 TDTurnovers - Brady 17 Roethlisberger 11

On the flip side:TD percentage: Brady 5.8% Roethlisberger 5.4%INT percentage: Brady 3.2% Roethlisberger 3.6%TD-INT ratio: Brady 24-13(+11) Roethlisberger 15-10(+5)Sacks: Brady 24 Roethlisberger 30 - this is very significant if you think about how much more Brady drops back to pass. Brady made the rare mistake Monday night of throwing a bad INT when he should have taken a sack, but that is very rare for him to do that. And kudos to Roethlisberger for taking sacks instead of throwing a bunch of bonehead picks like a lot of rookie QB's would do, but Brady still does a much better job of escaping the rush and avoiding sacks. Roethlisberger will get better at that though as he gets more experience.Now, you know full well that the passer rating sack is fairly meaningless, as it estimates a QB's worth as a passer, not as a QB.Yards per attempt is a very important stat, I agree and Roethlisberger has the edge in that department. But, New England's offense is predicated around throwing a lot of short passes and such, but they do take shots downfield. I think not having Deion Branch, their best deep thread, for a good part of the season has hindered them in that department.Brady doesn't do much running the football. Roethlisberger doesn't either, but he has shown he can when he has to.

Now what, aside from yards, TDs, and name recognition, can you give me regarding why Brady deserves to go over Roethlisberger? Because he got snubbed in the past? Brady is an excellent QB and Roethlisberger doesn't have the experience or the wins to stake a claim to Brady's throne as the top dog in the NFl right now, but based strictly on performance this season, I still think Roethlisberger deserved to go over Brady.

Having looked at everything, I will concede that the pick of Brady over Roethlisberger isn't as clear cut as I originally thought, but I still think Brady was the right choice.

 

[Evilgrin72]

If you were to compare Brady to Roethlisberger, for example : Brady has more yards and more TDs, but has also thrown 136 more passes than Roethlisberger. Naturally, he's going to be better in those categories, based purely on opportunity. It doesn't make him a better QB. 

No, but the argument can be made that New England trusts Brady a lot more than Pittsburgh trusts Roethlisberger, which is why Brady throws a lot more often.

Passer rating (I know you hate this stat) - Brady 90.3 Roethlisberger 96.3Completion percentage - Brady 59.5% Roethlisberger 66.0%Yards per attempt (most important stat IMO) - Brady 7.77 Roethlisberger 8.70Rushing yards/TDs - Brady 22/0 TD Roethlisberger 133/1 TDTurnovers - Brady 17 Roethlisberger 11

On the flip side:TD percentage: Brady 5.8% Roethlisberger 5.4%INT percentage: Brady 3.2% Roethlisberger 3.6%TD-INT ratio: Brady 24-13(+11) Roethlisberger 15-10(+5)Sacks: Brady 24 Roethlisberger 30 - this is very significant if you think about how much more Brady drops back to pass. Brady made the rare mistake Monday night of throwing a bad INT when he should have taken a sack, but that is very rare for him to do that. And kudos to Roethlisberger for taking sacks instead of throwing a bunch of bonehead picks like a lot of rookie QB's would do, but Brady still does a much better job of escaping the rush and avoiding sacks. Roethlisberger will get better at that though as he gets more experience.Now, you know full well that the passer rating sack is fairly meaningless, as it estimates a QB's worth as a passer, not as a QB.Yards per attempt is a very important stat, I agree and Roethlisberger has the edge in that department. But, New England's offense is predicated around throwing a lot of short passes and such, but they do take shots downfield. I think not having Deion Branch, their best deep thread, for a good part of the season has hindered them in that department.Brady doesn't do much running the football. Roethlisberger doesn't either, but he has shown he can when he has to.

Now what, aside from yards, TDs, and name recognition, can you give me regarding why Brady deserves to go over Roethlisberger? Because he got snubbed in the past? Brady is an excellent QB and Roethlisberger doesn't have the experience or the wins to stake a claim to Brady's throne as the top dog in the NFl right now, but based strictly on performance this season, I still think Roethlisberger deserved to go over Brady.

Having looked at everything, I will concede that the pick of Brady over Roethlisberger isn't as clear cut as I originally thought, but I still think Brady was the right choice.

We can crunch numbers all day..... The way I see it, there were 4 deserving candidates and 3 spots. Roethlisberger will get his once all is said and done. I have no problem with the choices made - I just would have liked to have seen Big Ben get rewarded for his top-notch play thus far this season.

 

[Ghost Rider]

We can crunch numbers all day..... The way I see it, there were 4 deserving candidates and 3 spots. Roethlisberger will get his once all is said and done. I have no problem with the choices made - I just would have liked to have seen Big Ben get rewarded for his top-notch play thus far this season.

I agree. Roethlisberger has been outstanding and there is certainly no shame in being the 4th best quarterback in the AFC this season. And trust me, if the Steelers and Pats meet in the playoffs, I will be rooting for Roethlisberger and the Steelers!

 

[Mahoney]

Probably not. He isn't having a very good season.

 

[cobalt_27]

What the hell is this all about?