This is a common misconception with Halladay that he's an injury prone player. He missed 76 games one year as a result of a line drive comebacker that nailed him in the leg and led to leg surgery. He also missed 18 games due to appendicitis. He missed some time in 04 with some shoulder problems but other than that it's been day-to-day for the most part. As a Jays fan it's going to be hard to see him go, he has been so faithful to the Jays. As far as the prospects coming back I think JP will be looking for players that will contribute very soon as in next year and 2011. I like Escobar from the brewers as a starting piece from the Brewers. I really thought the media was overhyping this at the start but it looks more and more like it will happen. Being in the division the Jays are in they have no real choice and they will get more for Halladay this year than next. The thing is though, because Halladay is a Type A Free Agent. The team that gets him in a trade also gets two(not sure on the number) if he goes to free agency after next year. That has to be taken into account as well.Mr. Pickles said:
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Roy Halladay (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Wrigley
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Seymour Corn
it=info
With NY and Boston in the division, I doubt they'll ever make the playoffs again. Unless theres a clubhouse swine flu breakout or something.
dparker713
Footballguy
Havent seen a single Jays game, but the defensive metrics and the analysts I've heard disagree with you.Last 3 years (2007, 2008, 2009)They're both pathetic on the bats, but Wells is superior to Rios in the field.I watch a lot of Jays games.I doubt you could convince even the Yankees to take on Wells' contract. But Rios has a bad, but not Zito-esk, contract that the Mets could stomach to reduce the price. Plus Rios can atleast field decently, unlike Wells. A deal with Pelfrey and Martinez while taking on Rios may be in the ballpark.If the Mets had the ability to take on that kind of money, they would have signed Manny.Encyclopedia Brown said:Baseball Prospectus had an interesting scenario.
If a team were to take on Vernon Wells and his atrocious contract (from 2011-2014 he earns 20+ million a year) then maybe they wouldn't have to empty the farm to get Halladay.
They mentioned the Mets, maybe giving up Fernando Martinez only.
Alex Rios
Ultimate Zone Rating: 8.9, 23.9, 1.3
UZR/150: 9.2, 27.5, 0.8
Vernon Wells
UZR: -1.1, -14.3, -19.9
UZR/150: -1.1, -24.0, -33.3
Now Wells was generally playing centerfield and Rios right and the sample size for the 2009 numbers is probably too small, but those are absymal numbers.
But regardless, Wells could be the greatest defensive centerfielder of all time, he still would have one of the worst contracts in baseball and I cant imagine anyone even entertaining taking on that contract.
derek245583
Footballguy
What is all this talk about Alex Rios...I was under the impression he was a pretty good player. 
boubucarow
Footballguy
If the Phillies are even thinking about a trade including two of Drabek, Brown, or Taylor, that effectively ends the chances of 90% of the teams in the league who can not match those prospects. Assuming the Jays are not trading Halladay in the division, no one is taking on Wells.
Bogart
Footballguy
The Rangers are dropping 22mil off the books next year (Padilla, Blalock and Frankie Cat) so Halladay's salary next year would be no problem. Their farm system is second to none, so they could easily come up with the best package to send to TOR.
The big issue is if TEX could find the money for the remainder of his salary THIS season. I might be willing to organize a car wash or something to help Hicks out to foot the bill.
Players like Halladay are the reason you build up your farm system, to have the most poker chips at the table.
The big issue is if TEX could find the money for the remainder of his salary THIS season. I might be willing to organize a car wash or something to help Hicks out to foot the bill.
Players like Halladay are the reason you build up your farm system, to have the most poker chips at the table.
hooter311
Footballguy
As it is right now, I could see the Angels sneaking in as a darkhorse and snagging him as well. They have plenty of pitching prospects and Brandon Wood to offer, they may have the capacity to take on some sort of salary dump as well. With Toronto willing to take a $15 million loss last week, they may be willing to eat a portion of the salary of one of their OFs if they can get someone to pick up the tab on the rest.
dparker713
Footballguy
That presumes the Rangers wont need to cut payroll next year. Not a safe assumption given Hicks' financial problems.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
As a Phillies' fan, I would absolutely give up any 3 players they want (including Happ), including up to 2 pitchers.
Will this get it done?
Will this get it done?
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
I see them signing Pedro as the number five to replace Haap.
hooter311
Footballguy
Its still going to cost them $4 million. Halladay would cost another $7 million this season.I just don't see the Phillies as a team in position to add $11 million in salary this year.
Yes. Your job, as GM, is to field the best team you can. If two offers are similar, then absolutely trade the guy to another division. But if NY/Boston comes calling and gives you the best offer, the GM would be an idiot to not take it, and if I were the owner I would fire the guy.awesomeness said:No.iSnitch said:If wanting to dump Wells' salary is a factor, I cannot see how the BoSox and Yankees would NOT be potential trade partners. Who cares if it's in your division if it's the best deal you can net.Encyclopedia Brown said:Baseball Prospectus had an interesting scenario.
If a team were to take on Vernon Wells and his atrocious contract (from 2011-2014 he earns 20+ million a year
They mentioned the Mets, maybe giving up Fernando Martinez only.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Fair point.....but I think this front office might have a different mentality in regards to money...particularly when that bump would only be for this year. You'd be adding 11 this year..... but next year ( assuming the Phils don't resign Brett Meyers)....they'd only be adding 2.22 million with the obvious upgrade from Meyers to Halladay.Plus, they are going to have to do something about their pitching staff. Lopez has had two good starts....but I don't think he's the answer and Haap hasn't been through the league twice yet.
hooter311
Footballguy
I agree. It may be different in football, but NYY and Boston are going to spend the money to get the talent anyways. Hoarding Halladay or accepting a weaker offer only for them to bring in the top FA talent next season or from other rosters is counterproductive. In a salary cap sport, yeah you never trade within the division unless you're sure you're giving up the short stick. If they could pry Hughes or Buchholz away from either team with additional talent and potentially dump some salary to allow them to maneuver better in the future , they'd be silly to pass it up.Yes. Your job, as GM, is to field the best team you can. If two offers are similar, then absolutely trade the guy to another division. But if NY/Boston comes calling and gives you the best offer, the GM would be an idiot to not take it, and if I were the owner I would fire the guy.awesomeness said:No.iSnitch said:If wanting to dump Wells' salary is a factor, I cannot see how the BoSox and Yankees would NOT be potential trade partners. Who cares if it's in your division if it's the best deal you can net.Encyclopedia Brown said:Baseball Prospectus had an interesting scenario.
If a team were to take on Vernon Wells and his atrocious contract (from 2011-2014 he earns 20+ million a year
They mentioned the Mets, maybe giving up Fernando Martinez only.
Last edited by a moderator:
igbomb
Footballguy
Wrong. A GM's job is to give his team the best shot of winning a world championship. If he feels that trading the best pitcher in baseball to a division rival hurts those chances more than it would if he were traded to another league, then the offer may be inconsequential.Yes. Your job, as GM, is to field the best team you can. If two offers are similar, then absolutely trade the guy to another division. But if NY/Boston comes calling and gives you the best offer, the GM would be an idiot to not take it, and if I were the owner I would fire the guy.awesomeness said:No.iSnitch said:If wanting to dump Wells' salary is a factor, I cannot see how the BoSox and Yankees would NOT be potential trade partners. Who cares if it's in your division if it's the best deal you can net.Encyclopedia Brown said:Baseball Prospectus had an interesting scenario.
If a team were to take on Vernon Wells and his atrocious contract (from 2011-2014 he earns 20+ million a year
They mentioned the Mets, maybe giving up Fernando Martinez only.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Toronto probably isn't a realistic contender to finish in the top 3 of that division this year or next year. After that, Halladay will be a free agent anyways. There is a good chance that he will go to the highest bidder at that point (which very easily could be the Yanks or Sox anyways). I think the GM has to get the best return on his investment regardless of the team he's trading to.
hooter311
Footballguy
Without a salary cap, the GM's job is also to keep the team profitable. If they can use Halladay as leverage to dump the salaries of one of their highest paid players and bring in talent with potential at the same time, they are doing their job. A deal within their division for Halladay is going to involve some sort of salary dump. Its not like football where you can sell out your stadium for 16 games, you have to keep people in attendance for 162 games in order to justify your payroll.
boubucarow
Footballguy
The Rangers are one of the few teams with the prospects to outbid the Phillies. In that group is probably the Marlins, Giants, Orioles, Braves, and the Rays. I don't see any of those teams in the position to add Halladay aside from the Phillies and Rangers. So if the Rangers or Phillies are willing two give up two of their elite prospects, I can't see many teams that Blue Jays will be willing to trade having the ammo to compete.Bogart said:
hooter311
Footballguy
There is no way the Rangers are going to take on Halladay's salary this year, regardless of what kind of deal they can put together. They are not in contention.
Bogart
Footballguy
A half game in first place with more than half the season over is not in contention? Please enlighten me what being "in contention" consists of.Thanks. I will hang up and listen.
Billy Bats
Footballguy
I heard that Toronto is asking for any deal to start with Jered and Howie along with 2 more quality prospects. (hitter and pitcher).hooter311 said:
Billy Bats
Footballguy
No no no, there isn't any grace period happening to develop players, it's time to get back-to-back rings. And have you seen our rotation?! Entering the playoffs with this staff will get us nowhere but golfing, very quickly.
I don't believe that. Hallady should go for a king's ransom but if I'm the Angels and that's really what they're asking, I'm telling them to go screw themselves.
It takes more than one player to make a team. I don't care how great Hallady is, he's still a pitcher and can only go out there every five games. If the Jays can get a lot of young talent that pans out, they would be able to overcome Boston/NY and Halladay's dominance.Wrong. A GM's job is to give his team the best shot of winning a world championship. If he feels that trading the best pitcher in baseball to a division rival hurts those chances more than it would if he were traded to another league, then the offer may be inconsequential.Yes. Your job, as GM, is to field the best team you can. If two offers are similar, then absolutely trade the guy to another division. But if NY/Boston comes calling and gives you the best offer, the GM would be an idiot to not take it, and if I were the owner I would fire the guy.awesomeness said:No.iSnitch said:If wanting to dump Wells' salary is a factor, I cannot see how the BoSox and Yankees would NOT be potential trade partners. Who cares if it's in your division if it's the best deal you can net.Encyclopedia Brown said:Baseball Prospectus had an interesting scenario.
If a team were to take on Vernon Wells and his atrocious contract (from 2011-2014 he earns 20+ million a year
They mentioned the Mets, maybe giving up Fernando Martinez only.
Look at the Rays as an example of gobs of talent being able to play better than any one star. Last year, Jeter, Rivera, ARod, Papi, Paplebon, Lester, Pedroia...all players that are amongst the best in baseball. But the Rays still beat their teams because they had lots and lots of talent everywhere.
So if NY/Boston won't clearly give the best offer, then sure, trade him to another division. But if they give you the most young talent, take it and run. If that talent pans out, the Jays are that much closer to being able to outplay without having to outpay.
boubucarow
Footballguy
Obviously it is all rumors now and we have no idea what Toronto wants or what other teams are willing to give. But if Weaver and Kendrick plus prospects are anywhere near the price, either teams will have to give up major league roster talent or be stacked in the minors to have a chance at this deal. There is a very short list of teams that fit the bill and have the trade put them in a position where the playoffs are almost assured. I am beginning to think that this won't happen right now, the price will just be too high.
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Really not sure that Riccardi or the Jays wanted to trade Halladay but the way he put it out there gave him a way to discuss it with Doc (he does have a full no-trade contract and would have to agree to a deal) and yet hint that it might be possible - if some team is dumb enough to give them what they want...no harm in trying as long as Halladay wouldn't get upset by the process.........just saying
Haraldur
Footballguy
Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the game, what does signing Pedro have to do with anything? The Phillies will be fortunate if they get 1/2 a season of a healthy Pedro.
Domination
Footballguy
Word is that Pedro's asking price has come way down, and he will take less money so that he can showcase for next year. He is going to cost next to nothing in a pro-rated, incentive laden contract. All he would do is take the place of Lopez, and not force them to bring any of the kids up. Halladay could very easily still be added, because the Jays want Happ as part of any deal. So he would just fill his spot in the rotation. I think that the only untouchable should be Drabek, and they should do anything else to get the deal done. Personally my offer would look like this.......Dominick BrownJohn KnappJA HappJason Donald1 or 2 more 2nd tier prospects.This would allow them to keep Drabek, Taylor, Marson, Carrasco, and Savery. Not to mention the prospects still down in single-A. Plus this should be more then enough to satisfy Toronto and beat out any other offer. Thoughts?????
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
With Bowden, Bucholz and Bard to potentially dangle, the Red Sox certainly have the talent to get Toronto interested in dealing to them.
In the past, Theo has not wanted to part with his young guns however.
Whoever gets Halladay is going to overpay but he is one guy worth overpaying for.
In the past, Theo has not wanted to part with his young guns however.
Whoever gets Halladay is going to overpay but he is one guy worth overpaying for.
hooter311
Footballguy
In contention for Halladay.
hooter311
Footballguy
Hadn't heard that, if that is true, then it does look they are positioning themselves to add Roy.
Halladay and Wells for Hughes and Kennedy?
You can sign two solid every day players with the money Wells will be making over the next five years. If I was Toronto I'd jump at the chance. Lots of young talented starters and ton of salary available to go after FA's in a buyer's market.
Trading within the division should not really be a factor IMO. Yanks and Bosox are always going to be tough to beat due to payroll limitations. The gap is always going to be significant. Halladay going to the Yanks doesn't really change the balance of power.
From the moment it was signed the Wells contract was just a disaster. Getting rid of that contract will make them much more competitive over the next five years.
You can sign two solid every day players with the money Wells will be making over the next five years. If I was Toronto I'd jump at the chance. Lots of young talented starters and ton of salary available to go after FA's in a buyer's market.
Trading within the division should not really be a factor IMO. Yanks and Bosox are always going to be tough to beat due to payroll limitations. The gap is always going to be significant. Halladay going to the Yanks doesn't really change the balance of power.
From the moment it was signed the Wells contract was just a disaster. Getting rid of that contract will make them much more competitive over the next five years.
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
I'd rather give Carrasco than Knapp. Knapp's ceiling is as high as Drabek's. Carrasco has been inconsistent in AAA and might not be better than a #3 or a #4 in the bigs. But I don't know what Toronto thinks of them. But, anything that involves keeping two of Drabek/Taylor/Brown, I'd be happy with.
Wells has the worst contract in baseball. He's not an asset. The deal is basically Halladay for Hughes, Kennedy and about 100mill dollars over the next five years.
dparker713
Footballguy
Dont see how even the Yanks can afford to take Wells' contract. It completely backloaded and they've also got massive long term commitments to several older players that are likely to blow up in their face as well (looking at you ARod).Wells has the worst contract in baseball. He's not an asset. The deal is basically Halladay for Hughes, Kennedy and about 100mill dollars over the next five years.
Not sure you realize how bad Wells contract is. Hughes is exactly the type of player Tor is looking for.
bentley
Footballguy
Nobody cares about the Stars. I need him to get out of the Liverpool business.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
Hughes and three other upper tier prospects. Hughes and Kennedy have absolutely no shot at getting it done on their own. I think The Yanks are out of the running here, you need a good system to make this trade.Not sure you realize how bad Wells contract is. Hughes is exactly the type of player Tor is looking for.
dparker713
Footballguy
If anyone is willing to take on Wells' contract, the price will come WAY down. Just dont think anyone would take on that contract. Its probably the worst in the league right now.Hughes and three other upper tier prospects. Hughes and Kennedy have absolutely no shot at getting it done on their own. I think The Yanks are out of the running here, you need a good system to make this trade.Not sure you realize how bad Wells contract is. Hughes is exactly the type of player Tor is looking for.
Johan down?Hughes and three other upper tier prospects. Hughes and Kennedy have absolutely no shot at getting it done on their own. I think The Yanks are out of the running here, you need a good system to make this trade.Not sure you realize how bad Wells contract is. Hughes is exactly the type of player Tor is looking for.
Their value has not improved since that offer...and it's not like that offer was made last week. It's been a couple years.Johan down?Hughes and three other upper tier prospects. Hughes and Kennedy have absolutely no shot at getting it done on their own. I think The Yanks are out of the running here, you need a good system to make this trade.Not sure you realize how bad Wells contract is. Hughes is exactly the type of player Tor is looking for.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
A lifetime ago when talking about prospects. Yes, Johan is down as well as being non relevant. Minnesota wouldn't make that trade with the Yankees today.
Domination
Footballguy
While I agree about Knapp, I don't think that him and Carrasco have close to the same value. Carrasco's value has gone down immensely in the last year, and holds more value for the Phillies keeping him rather than trading him away. If Happ keeps pitching the way that he is, he could be the key component of this deal, and might enable us to keep Drabek.Pip said:
Please See Mine
Footballguy
As a Phillies fan, I would love that. Carrasco's stock is down now. I think Toronto needs to hold out for better pitching prospects, if they can, though I'm not sure how all this will work out if Ricciardi doesn't want to hear offers until July 31.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
I hate to say it....but maybe the Phillies should look at the 2004 Red Sox to see how to handle this situation. There were a lot of people who said they should have brought back guys like Pedro and Derrick Lowe and make another run in 05. If they did that....they might have won another one. But some of the seeds for the current team were able to be drafted because they showed restraint.
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