Rule Proposal In My League (1 Viewer)

[Polish Hammer]

This is the time of year in my league where people put forth any ideas for rule tweaks for the upcoming year. Today, this email came across:

I've got another one that I want to put up to vote, controversial though it may be. Let's take it back to the old-school and outlaw the use of laptops at the draft! I'd like this added to the docket for voting. Non-Laptop crowd: Aren't you sick of coming in with your papers, magazines, cheat-sheets, and scribbled notes, only to see four or five guys using computer programs that override the subjectivity of the draft by telling owners which players are the best value out there? Haven't we noticed that these laptop guys inevitably get their come-uppance? Look at last year....Mo, Andy, Marrato...probably the three best teams in the league, all did it without the laptops, because they used their brains. Wouldn't you like to see all owners do it this way? Why don't we see these guys get their come-uppance just a little bit earlier, and draft like men, like the rest of us, without an electronic crutch! I know I'll have support from my non-laptop brethren in Joe, Bragg, Mo, Andy, Marrato, Bernie, Giaco...let's take the power back, plus it would make it easier to have the draft at a bar.

My reply was:

Jack and I have had the discussion already, and I guess we'll agree to disagree. Here's my point: at this stage in the evolution of fantasy football, laptops and drafting software is essentially the same thing that magazines were 5-7 years ago. Soon they will become the standard and fighting against them for some really nondescript reason (primarily "I don't do it that way so you shouldn't either") is silly and/or petty. Now I do agree that if someone has a program running, they should only be allowed to share the info it provides them insomuch as anyone using lists/magazines/brains is allowed to share their opinions/info with other people. Furthermore, the sheer logic with which Jack rails against the laptops ("probably the three best teams in the league, all did it without the laptops") implies that the laptops serve as a handicap, not a help. Really, it says that you should in fact ENCOURAGE competition to use laptops, not discourage. Also, I'll be more than happy to have the draft at a bar, and I don't see how/why the location would make people more or less likely to use a laptop. The truth of it is that I'm at the point where I've used the program so much that it doesn't provide me tons more help than just printed lists would. I now use it as a guideline, but more often than not I don't choose the exact player that the program tells me. However, I don't feel that just because I don't need it as much I should have the authority to limit what self-contained resources others might want to utilize. In fact, there are some benefits to the league/draft as a whole that the program I use does provide. It provides us a timer for each pick. Also, it creates very realiable record (easily searched and accessed) of who has already been taken, by whom, and when so that in the later rounds (and in the case of some people, the early rounds) we can work to ensure the same players aren't chosen multiple times. Yes, the draft board can do this, but it eats up more time at a point in the draft where we all usually want to just move things along. For those of us that have entered the results online, it provides a very clean format for emailing out the draft results very shortly after the conclusion. It also gives the "team strength" lists that many of us like to discuss, debate, and ridicule each other for during the breaks in drafting.

I'm guessing some of you have run up against this before and was looking towards advice on how to beat down this dumb idea.

 

[obxlegends]

I've never come across this, but you could say "if you want to do it like 'real men' as you say then let's all draft from memory - no laptops, no magazines, no notes or scripts of any kind. Is that what you want?"

Last year was my first with drafting from a laptop. I did use the draft dominator software that FBG provides. However, aside from organization, I didn't feel it was much different than in years past. He pretty much contradicted himself in his email as you pointed out. It shouldn't really be an issue it's pure and simple evolution of the game. He should learn to accept it.

 

[finito]

why would this guy want to ban laptops if he thinks the ones using them draft poor teams?

 

[Jason Wood]

Should we ban other modern conventions like writing instruments, seats and lightbulbs on draft day too?

That's asinine.

 

[brock]

tell the old men to get with the times or move on and fade away like their hand scripted notepads and mags.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

 

[comfortably numb]

Just tell your grandfather he can't play in your league anymore.

 

[gianmarco]

I'm surprised he sent this proposal out via email. You should ask why he didn't just write a letter, put a stamp on it, and mail one out to each and every member.

 

[obxlegends]

I'm surprised he sent this proposal out via email. You should ask why he didn't just write a letter, put a stamp on it, and mail one out to each and every member.

I'm nominating this for "funniest line of the day" honors.

 

[brock]

I'm surprised he sent this proposal out via email. You should ask why he didn't just write a letter, put a stamp on it, and mail one out to each and every member.

I'm nominating this for "funniest line of the day" honors.

the post office might be too high tech. he might have to pony express that letter.

 

[TD5150]

No laptops, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

I think you should suggest everybody has to draft using only FF magazines that were published 5 months before the draft takes place......just like the good old days before the internet.

 

[Rockchild]

Why didn't he send smoke signals? Or is fire too modern too?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo.

I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

 

[FTRWRTR]

1) He's just bitter because he can't afford a laptop

2) If the owners who use laptops end up drafting lousy teams they get no competitive advantage from using them and therefore there is no reason to ban them

 

[gregjcross]

Why didn't he send smoke signals? Or is fire too modern too?

My magic Dell Laptop is the ominous Peep stone, and I the fantasy Necromancer when the Dog Star shines at its brightest.In the year 2007, the stone predicted i. Injuries to Ronnie Brown, Larry Johnson and Steven Jackson. ii. Randy Moss would break fantasy records iii. That Lawrence Maroney and Willie Parker couldnt cross the goal line.iv. To avoid Drew Brees in SeptemberThe ultimate illegal weapon of fantasy football drafts, beware its power!

 

[FTRWRTR]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

But he isn't saying that. He has no problem with ppl using cheat sheets and ff mags. His problem is with ppl using computers.

 

[Warhogs]

I personally see no problem in saying no computers at the draft as long as everyone agees to this. His argument does have holes since it would seem his argument would be to prevent some sort of advantage but then he rips those who used them for not being the best teams. I recall instances at our live drafts where teams with computers had access to breaking news that gave them an advantage.

It would be interesting to understand why he feels they should be banned since his argument does not indicate it gives those teams a competitive advantage.

In the end this is really a non-issue for me. If no laptops then just print out a cheatsheet to guide you just before the draft and show him you got skills.

 

[gianmarco]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

But he isn't saying that. He has no problem with ppl using cheat sheets and ff mags. His problem is with ppl using computers.

I would also argue that those that go as far as to pay for subscriptions here and use the tools available are probably the ones the need it the least. I wouldn't call it a crutch. I would also think it would encourage those guys just using magazines and being "behind" to realize there is more information out there and to do even more work. The guy that puts little work into it or drafts "oddly" by picking rookies or what not is NOT going to be the one bringing in a laptop.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

But he isn't saying that. He has no problem with ppl using cheat sheets and ff mags. His problem is with ppl using computers.

I see what you're saying, but mags and cheat sheets can't really do everything for you. They can't adjust themselves based on what happens during the draft. The person has to do that themselves and evaluate everything. If an owner hired a FF geek/expert/whatever to sit in and advise him on every pick so he didn't have to do much himself, what would the guys in your league say? Would it be no big deal, or would be be mocked for "not being man enough to do it himself?" Would people wonder why he's even in the league if he's not going to draft his own players? Really, it's not all that different. Like I said, in leagues where people don't know each other or it's really high stakes, it doesn't matter. But if the league is made up of close friends, and camaraderie is a big reason why you play, I can see why someone would think alaptop takes something away from the personality of the draft. That's all.

 

[mozzy84]

I personally see no problem in saying no computers at the draft as long as everyone agees to this. His argument does have holes since it would seem his argument would be to prevent some sort of advantage but then he rips those who used them for not being the best teams. I recall instances at our live drafts where teams with computers had access to breaking news that gave them an advantage.

It would be interesting to understand why he feels they should be banned since his argument does not indicate it gives those teams a competitive advantage.

In the end this is really a non-issue for me. If no laptops then just print out a cheatsheet to guide you just before the draft and show him you got skills.

I doubt everyone is going to agree but if its voted in you deal with it. I wouldn't be all bent if they banned them just because I know some guys who actually feel they really need them for one reason or another. His argument would make alot more sense if he said it was an advantage because I feel it is, I am alot more organized on draft day than the guys trying to write everything down and fishing through 5 different cheat sheets but I at the same time I could live without the computer if I had too.

 

[FTRWRTR]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

But he isn't saying that. He has no problem with ppl using cheat sheets and ff mags. His problem is with ppl using computers.

I see what you're saying, but mags and cheat sheets can't really do everything for you. They can't adjust themselves based on what happens during the draft. The person has to do that themselves and evaluate everything. If an owner hired a FF geek/expert/whatever to sit in and advise him on every pick so he didn't have to do much himself, what would the guys in your league say? Would it be no big deal, or would be be mocked for "not being man enough to do it himself?" Would people wonder why he's even in the league if he's not going to draft his own players? Really, it's not all that different. Like I said, in leagues where people don't know each other or it's really high stakes, it doesn't matter. But if the league is made up of close friends, and camaraderie is a big reason why you play, I can see why someone would think alaptop takes something away from the personality of the draft. That's all.

The thing is I don't see that much of a difference between using a laptop, a ff mag, or hiring a ff "expert". In each case you're using someone else's opinion to influence who you draft. And in the end he's complaining about something that doesn't matter since the top teams were the ones who didn't use a laptop.

 

[Ksquared]

I am going to simply add that in my two local leagues (about half the guys use DD). And there are two of the six in each league that go right off of the default DD. But if you have used the DD in the last two years, it is so customizable that the other 4 of us only would draft the same player about 1/3 of the time. Probably the same percentage if we were all using different cheat sheets. I think these complaints are mostly from people that have not used DD or used it just as an organizational tool and not with all the customizing it now allows (beyond just changing the projections).

 

[massraider]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo. I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research. Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

 

[lion_crazz]

I am surprised everyone responded so negatively to the email. I was not aware that many people used laptops at fantasy football drafts. In my league, not a single person brings a laptop and I think it is so much more fun and personal that way. You are either prepared or you are not. You can take the risk of drafting by a cheatsheet, but that will only get you so far. In order to win, you need to go out and do the "scouting" of players to see for example who is hot, who is not, and who is injured or has bad blood with their team.

 

[Phurfur]

tell the old men to get with the times or move on and fade away like their hand scripted notepads and mags.

As an old man I take offense to this. OK I’m over it.I would put it to the league like this, "Does the NFL ban laptops at their draft"?

If you ban laptops you should ban magazines too because isn't the magazine telling you who to draft?

 

[KellysHeroes]

I have noticed... even in the past yr or 2, everyone seems to rely on some type of software tool to make picks or trades.

Its one thing when u have a cheatsheet... its another when your the Jetsons and a software program is making the pick for u. Yes, this does drive me nutz and I would love to find some "Old School" leagues that refused to use this type of stuff.... I would in no way think of banning it. Times change, and FF is changing w/ it.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo. I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research. Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

I just don't think a magazine compares to using a laptop. You can't adjust it on the fly, it's not really based on your specific league or scoring system and it doesn't self-correct based on what other owners do. Plus, in my experience I don't know of anyone who ever stuck to a printed cheatcheet. It's just not flexible enough to be used for an entire draft.I think it's more comparable to hiring a guy to sit and draft with you. If half the league did that, how would you react? No big deal, or would it seem weird to you? The truth is that I don't really believe in hamstringing owners, so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them. But I understand the thinking behind it, and it's not about hating technology. It's about a league of 12 owners turning into something different, where some owners are abdicating their roles to a machine. I guess it's just not the way I think of a fantasy football league with your friends. I don't really see a lot of fun in playing against a program, or computer-aided draft stand-in, which is what some owners become.To be fair, I don't play ff to make a ton of money and I only play in leagues where I know all the owners. I'm not that hard core, so maybe this is a guppy perspective. I wouldn't hire a personal poker coach to sit with me at the weekly card game, either. I might buy a book to learn some tips, though.

 

[Two Deep]

You should have your draft preparation completed and your entire draft memorized long before draft day. If your looking at the draft dominator or whatever other draft aide, you have already lost. We've got one lap top guy in our dynasty league and it will be fifteen years before he is competitive with the mistakes he has made. I say let the geeks use their laptops

 

[obxlegends]

The issue is that so many of us play in multible online leagues that the information is most likely already on our computers. Then we draft in our "home" league and it's just simply easiest to continue to use the setup we already have. We're firmly entrenched in the next generation of fantasy football. The bell has rung and you really can't change that.

 

[Godsbrother]

I am in a league with a bunch of old timers (45-50). No one uses a laptop but we have no rule banning it.

Most of the guys in my league have a hard enough time crossing off players from a cheatsheet while drinking, eating and smoking cigars. Giving them a laptop would be pointless but if someone did draft with a computer they would be the butt of many jokes.

 

[az_prof]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

 

[az_prof]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo. I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research. Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

I just don't think a magazine compares to using a laptop. You can't adjust it on the fly, it's not really based on your specific league or scoring system and it doesn't self-correct based on what other owners do. Plus, in my experience I don't know of anyone who ever stuck to a printed cheatcheet. It's just not flexible enough to be used for an entire draft.I think it's more comparable to hiring a guy to sit and draft with you. If half the league did that, how would you react? No big deal, or would it seem weird to you? The truth is that I don't really believe in hamstringing owners, so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them. But I understand the thinking behind it, and it's not about hating technology. It's about a league of 12 owners turning into something different, where some owners are abdicating their roles to a machine. I guess it's just not the way I think of a fantasy football league with your friends. I don't really see a lot of fun in playing against a program, or computer-aided draft stand-in, which is what some owners become.To be fair, I don't play ff to make a ton of money and I only play in leagues where I know all the owners. I'm not that hard core, so maybe this is a guppy perspective. I wouldn't hire a personal poker coach to sit with me at the weekly card game, either. I might buy a book to learn some tips, though.

Just because you use a computer to store your rankings or help you make your rankings doesn't mean you are obligated to blindly follow what the computer says!!!! It's no different than a magazine. Do you blindly follow the rankings of the magazine?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo. I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research. Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

I just don't think a magazine compares to using a laptop. You can't adjust it on the fly, it's not really based on your specific league or scoring system and it doesn't self-correct based on what other owners do. Plus, in my experience I don't know of anyone who ever stuck to a printed cheatcheet. It's just not flexible enough to be used for an entire draft.I think it's more comparable to hiring a guy to sit and draft with you. If half the league did that, how would you react? No big deal, or would it seem weird to you? The truth is that I don't really believe in hamstringing owners, so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them. But I understand the thinking behind it, and it's not about hating technology. It's about a league of 12 owners turning into something different, where some owners are abdicating their roles to a machine. I guess it's just not the way I think of a fantasy football league with your friends. I don't really see a lot of fun in playing against a program, or computer-aided draft stand-in, which is what some owners become.To be fair, I don't play ff to make a ton of money and I only play in leagues where I know all the owners. I'm not that hard core, so maybe this is a guppy perspective. I wouldn't hire a personal poker coach to sit with me at the weekly card game, either. I might buy a book to learn some tips, though.

Just because you use a computer to store your rankings or help you make your rankings doesn't mean you are obligated to blindly follow what the computer says!!!! It's no different than a magazine. Do you blindly follow the rankings of the magazine?

Nobody is obligated to do anything. But if someone uses a self-correcting program that adjusts to a draft in real time, that's different than a cheatsheet on a piece of paper. I'm not saying it's illegal; it's different. I can see why someone would think the game isn't the same with a bunch of guys on laptops on draft day. I want to play against my friends, not a computer.How would you feel if someone brought a laptop to a weekly poker game, or hired a guy to sit and help them draft?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Computers are supposed to make lives easier (yeah, I know, insert Microsoft joke here).

If you've ever been to a draft where someone can't remember who's up, who has been drafted, what teams have who, who is on a bye week when, and most of all when everyone is "done" they want to know what their team looks like, you can appreciate having something like the Draft Dominator.

I use it because I can, not because I have to. Granted I'm not the normal guy in a FF league - in August or September, I'll have already done 10-15 drafts by then, most of which are very deep, so I really don't need a PC to help me out. It's mostly for organization for me.

If some want to use it for suggestions, fantastic. More power to you. I'm more into picking based on value and such (and seeing who already has a TE and I can wait a round, etc.) but you can get that from a draft board.

It's really about making the draft easier to track, not about drafting according to FBG or any other site. I'm going for the guys I want anyway.

 

[allaces10]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

He means they are idiots for actually trying to control how other owners prepare for the draft and are attempting to restrict the materials they use to do so....it seems you are A: lumped into this category and B: didnt even really comprehend what he was trying to say. I agree with him..this is beyond ridiculous and the fact that even ONE person is in this thread defending this is even worse...

 

[DonFue]

33 posts and counting? We need some real football to happen. The internet has change FF a lot over the past decade but having a laptop at the draft is like finding a dime on the ground when you're a millionaire. If you're in a league where guys are taking a players because they're "next on the list", in a magazine or a current FBG VBD EXCEL spreadsheet, you should be winning that league.

As far as I'm concerned, you can bring Bill Polian (with his laptop) and I'll still draft better than you!

 

[5-ish Finkle]

[heston]"They can take my laptop....WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD....DEAD....HANDS!"[/heston]

 

[Rockchild]

Why shouldn't someone be allowed to use a laptop? If someone spends months online reading and adjusting his cheatsheets then spends a few extra dollars of his own to buy a program that allows him to adjust on the fly, I say more power to him. It used to be an advantage to study and spend hours online looking for tidbits of info to find that late round sleeper or breakout WR but now some guy an hour before the draft spits out a cheatsheet and has just as much info as you do. I see no reason to ban laptops.

 

[BuckeyeArt]

You should have your draft preparation completed and your entire draft memorized long before draft day. If your looking at the draft dominator or whatever other draft aide, you have already lost. We've got one lap top guy in our dynasty league and it will be fifteen years before he is competitive with the mistakes he has made. I say let the geeks use their laptops

I'm not so sure you've accurately identified the geek. Is it the guy using the computer or the guy that has completely memorized his draft?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

He means they are idiots for actually trying to control how other owners prepare for the draft and are attempting to restrict the materials they use to do so....it seems you are A: lumped into this category and B: didnt even really comprehend what he was trying to say. I agree with him..this is beyond ridiculous and the fact that even ONE person is in this thread defending this is even worse...

I guess you missed the part where I said I don't believe in hamstringing owners so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them...but that's okay. It's a long thread.I don't think it's ridiculous and I understand why people would feel that way, even if I likely wouldn't support the proposal myself. People here get very defensive sometimes. How you prepare for the draft is different than how you conduct the draft. How would you feel if a guy hired someone to sit with him and advise him on picks? I'm not saying it's illegal...but would that guy get mocked in your league at all? Would people say he can't do it on his own? How about a guy bringing a laptop to a poker game to spot trends or calculate specific percentages? I'm sure there's no rule against it, but does it change the dynamics of your friendly game?

Jeff P. brought up some excellent points about organization. Just for the league it can keep track of who's taken and provide a complete roster of every team immediately. It can be very valuable. Also, some folks are in multiple leagues and play to win a lot of cash. Of course you'd want every advantage. I'm just saying that playing against a half dozen programs changes the personality of a draft and league, and some people don't care for that. I see their point; that's all.

 

[code]

Since it's inception 6 years ago, we've had a rule banning laptops (and other electronics) at our draft. Works fine for us.

 

[Road Warriors]

Computers are supposed to make lives easier (yeah, I know, insert Microsoft joke here).If you've ever been to a draft where someone can't remember who's up, who has been drafted, what teams have who, who is on a bye week when, and most of all when everyone is "done" they want to know what their team looks like, you can appreciate having something like the Draft Dominator.I use it because I can, not because I have to. Granted I'm not the normal guy in a FF league - in August or September, I'll have already done 10-15 drafts by then, most of which are very deep, so I really don't need a PC to help me out. It's mostly for organization for me.If some want to use it for suggestions, fantastic. More power to you. I'm more into picking based on value and such (and seeing who already has a TE and I can wait a round, etc.) but you can get that from a draft board. It's really about making the draft easier to track, not about drafting according to FBG or any other site. I'm going for the guys I want anyway.

<_< The organizational ability of the DD is a great tool for running a draft. I use it as a commish and it keeps the draft moving smoothly. I actually find the DD recommendations ( I don't do much customizing beyond the league setup ) break down, according to my drafts, pretty quickly. At the end of the day, the DD does nothing beyond organizing the information of the draft so that I can apply my choices based on what has occurred up to that point, but nothing more than could have been done with pen & paper, just much more slowly.

 

[Road Warriors]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo. I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research. Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

I just don't think a magazine compares to using a laptop. You can't adjust it on the fly, it's not really based on your specific league or scoring system and it doesn't self-correct based on what other owners do. Plus, in my experience I don't know of anyone who ever stuck to a printed cheatcheet. It's just not flexible enough to be used for an entire draft.I think it's more comparable to hiring a guy to sit and draft with you. If half the league did that, how would you react? No big deal, or would it seem weird to you? The truth is that I don't really believe in hamstringing owners, so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them. But I understand the thinking behind it, and it's not about hating technology. It's about a league of 12 owners turning into something different, where some owners are abdicating their roles to a machine. I guess it's just not the way I think of a fantasy football league with your friends. I don't really see a lot of fun in playing against a program, or computer-aided draft stand-in, which is what some owners become.To be fair, I don't play ff to make a ton of money and I only play in leagues where I know all the owners. I'm not that hard core, so maybe this is a guppy perspective. I wouldn't hire a personal poker coach to sit with me at the weekly card game, either. I might buy a book to learn some tips, though.

Just because you use a computer to store your rankings or help you make your rankings doesn't mean you are obligated to blindly follow what the computer says!!!! It's no different than a magazine. Do you blindly follow the rankings of the magazine?

Nobody is obligated to do anything. But if someone uses a self-correcting program that adjusts to a draft in real time, that's different than a cheatsheet on a piece of paper. I'm not saying it's illegal; it's different. I can see why someone would think the game isn't the same with a bunch of guys on laptops on draft day. I want to play against my friends, not a computer.How would you feel if someone brought a laptop to a weekly poker game, or hired a guy to sit and help them draft?

Well, what if the application used wasn't a self adjusting draft program, like the DD, but merely an Excel spreadsheet that could do everything DD did without any of the recommendations. You'd have a view of the entire draft, each team's makeup, spot runs or impending runs, listing of remaining available players, etc. Should a tool that does exactly what each non-tech owner is trying to do with paper & pencil be banned?Perhaps there are some owners that let a draft program tell them their next pick. I'll bet that these owners, with the laptop removed, will let their magazine listing or ESPN cheatsheet tell them their next pick instead. Lazy owners are lazy owners, regardless of technology. To answer your questions, I wouldn't care remotely if someone brought a laptop to a weekly poker game. Poker software, IMO, will help you make the right play over time, not help you in a specific hand. It also is not a common practice to use tools like this playing poker. Would you be opposed to someone whipping out a paper & pencil & calculating the necessary odds to determine his play?As to bringing someone to the draft to help, is this person acting as a secrertary, keeping track of the draft results to that point? Sure, no problem. Is he whispering the next pick to the owner? Well, that would seem a bit off to me, but I will say it is just one more ( extreme ) example of the lazy owner syndrome mentioned above.

 

[bostonfred]

I would actually prefer to draft without laptops, but if it's at a bar, it's non optional.

People who hold their drafts at bars with a half dozen dorks holding laptops have turned this hobby into dungeons and dragons. Please stop.

 

[az_prof]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

You misunderstand. They are not idiots because they don't use a computer; they are idiots because they want to ban other people from using them and their argument is not valid. If computers help you then why mention how the best people last year didn't use them? If they don't help, and actually hurt, why would one owner want to stop another owner from using them then? Is he that worried about the poor performance of the computer users? People who can't understand this are stupid and I prefer to play with intelligent players so that I don't have to suffer through stupid trades being made by these people and because I enjoy a challenge and want to beat the best competition possible.

 

[az_prof]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

He means they are idiots for actually trying to control how other owners prepare for the draft and are attempting to restrict the materials they use to do so....it seems you are A: lumped into this category and B: didnt even really comprehend what he was trying to say. I agree with him..this is beyond ridiculous and the fact that even ONE person is in this thread defending this is even worse...

Thank you! Nice to know someone actually understood what I wrote.Here's another thing: isn't reading this site an advantage? Hearing what other people think? Should we ban the use of football discussion forums also?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Some of you guys are being too sensitive imo. It's a fair proposal. When he says "draft like men," nobody is threatening anyone's masculinity. I think he's saying to let the individual make his own decision, not a computer program. Late in the draft, let the guy who didn't do any research sink or swim on his own, not be propped up by something he bought. Calling it a crutch isn't applicable to everyone, but it's certainly valid for a lot of owners.

While everyone stumbles over each other trying to one-up the side-splitting technology jokes, keep in mind that it's not really about how "modern" the tool is. It's the concept of 12 personalities drafting-- the homer, the guy who reaches too early for players, the guy who just plays hunches, the guy who loves rookies-- versus a bunch of guys who simply use a laptop to compensate for what they don't know. Sure, you don't HAVE to let it make all the decisions for you, but when they're left to your own knowledge and they're not sure what to do...many owners do just that. Again, it's not about hating technology. Hiring a knowledgeable guy to sit in and coach you through your draft would be the same concept, and kind of lame imo.

I understand that some (perhaps many) people take our hobby and turn it into a part-time job. They're in a dozen leagues with people they barely know. That's fine, and maybe in those cases using a laptop doesn't change any dynamics. But if you're playing with friends and it's not for bank-busting amounts of money, I think it's kind of cool if the people themselves actually draft their teams, and let their personalities be reflected in their lineups.

If the laptop guys are using the Draft Dominator, how does this guy know that that they haven't tweaked the projections, and come up with their own custom cheatsheets?Fact is, the old school drafting, every casual league had one or two guys that showed up with a magazine, and pretty much stuck to the printed cheatsheet. In other words, using someone else's research.

Before laptops, I showed up with the schedule torn out, and my notebook with my own cheatsheets. But I generally started those cheatsheets with one from a magazine, and moved players up and down. I do that now, with the DD, the only thing that has changed, is that all the stuff I had on paper, is now in a computer.

If laptops are using someone else's research, then so are fantasy magazines.

I just don't think a magazine compares to using a laptop. You can't adjust it on the fly, it's not really based on your specific league or scoring system and it doesn't self-correct based on what other owners do. Plus, in my experience I don't know of anyone who ever stuck to a printed cheatcheet. It's just not flexible enough to be used for an entire draft.I think it's more comparable to hiring a guy to sit and draft with you. If half the league did that, how would you react? No big deal, or would it seem weird to you?

The truth is that I don't really believe in hamstringing owners, so I probably wouldn't vote to ban them. But I understand the thinking behind it, and it's not about hating technology. It's about a league of 12 owners turning into something different, where some owners are abdicating their roles to a machine. I guess it's just not the way I think of a fantasy football league with your friends. I don't really see a lot of fun in playing against a program, or computer-aided draft stand-in, which is what some owners become.

To be fair, I don't play ff to make a ton of money and I only play in leagues where I know all the owners. I'm not that hard core, so maybe this is a guppy perspective. I wouldn't hire a personal poker coach to sit with me at the weekly card game, either. I might buy a book to learn some tips, though.

Just because you use a computer to store your rankings or help you make your rankings doesn't mean you are obligated to blindly follow what the computer says!!!! It's no different than a magazine. Do you blindly follow the rankings of the magazine?

Nobody is obligated to do anything. But if someone uses a self-correcting program that adjusts to a draft in real time, that's different than a cheatsheet on a piece of paper. I'm not saying it's illegal; it's different. I can see why someone would think the game isn't the same with a bunch of guys on laptops on draft day. I want to play against my friends, not a computer.How would you feel if someone brought a laptop to a weekly poker game, or hired a guy to sit and help them draft?

Well, what if the application used wasn't a self adjusting draft program, like the DD, but merely an Excel spreadsheet that could do everything DD did without any of the recommendations. You'd have a view of the entire draft, each team's makeup, spot runs or impending runs, listing of remaining available players, etc. Should a tool that does exactly what each non-tech owner is trying to do with paper & pencil be banned?Perhaps there are some owners that let a draft program tell them their next pick. I'll bet that these owners, with the laptop removed, will let their magazine listing or ESPN cheatsheet tell them their next pick instead. Lazy owners are lazy owners, regardless of technology.

To answer your questions, I wouldn't care remotely if someone brought a laptop to a weekly poker game. Poker software, IMO, will help you make the right play over time, not help you in a specific hand. It also is not a common practice to use tools like this playing poker. Would you be opposed to someone whipping out a paper & pencil & calculating the necessary odds to determine his play?

As to bringing someone to the draft to help, is this person acting as a secrertary, keeping track of the draft results to that point? Sure, no problem. Is he whispering the next pick to the owner? Well, that would seem a bit off to me, but I will say it is just one more ( extreme ) example of the lazy owner syndrome mentioned above.

That's what I'm saying. I don't think I'd be comfortable banning it, but it's "a bit off." Same with computer programs. Secretarial functions are different imo, because they just save time. But if it's telling you the person to draft, it's just a little off. You don't have to do any homework; just let the program do everything. I think it makes leagues less fun.To a much smaller extent cheatsheets do the same thing. but they don't self-adjust and people tend to ditch them as the draft gets later and later.

Maybe I'm just older, but I do think the game has changed with information so easily-accessible and easy-to-download cheatsheets putting everyone on the same level (to begin with). It saves time because I don't even pay attention to free agency until late July (I just come here to chat). I have no idea who went where (except a team I support), and it doesn't matter. I'll just catch up instantly whenever I feel like it. But it was kinda cool to do your own research, see who went where and have an advantage because of that. Now every clown with a laptop and a program is basically a contender on draft day. Yeah, it makes for "better" competition, but not the same as having a dozen really-knowledgeable guys going at it.

Maybe I'm not explaining it right. It just seems more artificial and inauthentic. Nature of the beat, I guess. I'm glad it doesn't really factor into my league.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Bring a rock and a chisel and beat them senseless on draft day.

This whole thing is completely and utterly absurd. BTW, the original poster's answer to his fellow owner was pretty good. If this passes I would leave--who wants to play with idiots?

Why are people who don't use a computer program to play fantasy football "idiots?" If you really think your fellow owners are idiots, perhaps leaving would be a good idea?

He means they are idiots for actually trying to control how other owners prepare for the draft and are attempting to restrict the materials they use to do so....it seems you are A: lumped into this category and B: didnt even really comprehend what he was trying to say. I agree with him..this is beyond ridiculous and the fact that even ONE person is in this thread defending this is even worse...

Thank you! Nice to know someone actually understood what I wrote.Here's another thing: isn't reading this site an advantage? Hearing what other people think? Should we ban the use of football discussion forums also?

Not sure what "an advantage" has to do with laptops or programs specifically. I'm not sure anyone said there was anything wrong with "an advantage." Taking the time to visit a forum and discussing football with other people is different than downloading a program or using a laptop. Again, not illegal...just different.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I think the no computers argument is like Chess. Computers help you practice, but you can't play against an opponent using them. You have to figure out what moves to make on your own.