Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Ryan Williams (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter 3quinox
- Start date
RalphMouth
Footballguy
I heard that if he had been drafted this year he would have gone 2nd after Richardson so we know the talent is there.
Shutout
Footballguy
Explain exactly what you have seen that leads you to say he is more talented? I just don't get that. Nobody has seen this guy play in over a year and he didn't have a long college career. So we have never seen him play at the pro level, yet you have come to a decision that he is more talented.
Every year there seems to be a situation in the NFL where people are just chomping at the bit to push a new guy in, touting his talent, while at the same time trying to say the incumbent is too old, less talented, injury prone, etc. And in just about every instance, there is very little to no actual playing time to support the general "This kid's more talented" statement.
I know people like to catch the next rising star before they make it big but more and more these days I become skeptical. Sometimes, its not a given that Spiller will push FJAX out of the way. Sometimes, Mark Ingram isn't going to be a bell cow back. Sometimes, the OBVIOUS choice of Tate over Foster isn't all that obvious to the real teams. Sometimes, what the NFL team has worked with in the past and has familiarty with IS good enough.
Wells is a very young back who is a slightly rare combination of size and speed these days. they love him at the goal line AND he has some decent speed. His head coach lauds his commitment to the team and his willingness to play hurt last year. I just don't think that because it seems like a nice pick in FF that a kid coming off a major knee issue that hasn't played in the league would just easily push the incumbent to the side.
Every year there seems to be a situation in the NFL where people are just chomping at the bit to push a new guy in, touting his talent, while at the same time trying to say the incumbent is too old, less talented, injury prone, etc. And in just about every instance, there is very little to no actual playing time to support the general "This kid's more talented" statement.
I know people like to catch the next rising star before they make it big but more and more these days I become skeptical. Sometimes, its not a given that Spiller will push FJAX out of the way. Sometimes, Mark Ingram isn't going to be a bell cow back. Sometimes, the OBVIOUS choice of Tate over Foster isn't all that obvious to the real teams. Sometimes, what the NFL team has worked with in the past and has familiarty with IS good enough.
Wells is a very young back who is a slightly rare combination of size and speed these days. they love him at the goal line AND he has some decent speed. His head coach lauds his commitment to the team and his willingness to play hurt last year. I just don't think that because it seems like a nice pick in FF that a kid coming off a major knee issue that hasn't played in the league would just easily push the incumbent to the side.
Last edited by a moderator:
Shutout
Footballguy
There are excellent spotlight threads on every player from Knowshonn Moreno to adrian Peterson on these boards. Just because something is typed doesn't make it true. they can't all be future stars..and aren't. Again, I'm asking a very straight forward question: Where have you seen this talent on display recently, in enough volume to be able to draw a reasonable conclusion that this guy has what it takes to play at this level at the high level being discussed? You can't say because a guy took 5 carries in the last year that it's a done deal. Lots of guys come back from injuries (and some when they aren't even injured) and look good in the pre-season or look good with a handful of plays. But how has this conclusion been drawn without seeing a guy play a real workload against a real defense?I know I probably sound like I'm challenging the idea of Williams. I'm not. I'm challenging the process that led us here because if it exists and this information is out there beyond just speculation on some people's parts, I want to see it and make my own conclusions. But as of right now, I haven't seen this kid run more that one season in the last three.
Abraham
Footballguy
I was pointing out that there is a spotlight thread answering the exact question you asked (and more) right here on the first page. You are free to start a new thread but don't be surprised if you get fewer responses than you expect because many people have already posted their view In the spotlight thread. Im one of those people that doesn't particularly care if we have redundant topics in the pool. To each his own. I was just pointing out that the discussion you seek has already happened recently and is there for the reading.
Please See Mine
Footballguy
DoubleG
Footballguy
Or it could be they just wanted to get him some action and then protect him as he is just coming back from a major injury.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
JJ Arrington was the total package too - remember ?
Shutout
Footballguy
My apologies. I thought your comment was a reply to the post I had put in.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He was responding to the OP.
Shutout
Footballguy
it puzzles me why people will take the time to read a thread or a post in particular and not actually answer the question asked or reply to it.Clicking on a smiling icon shaking its head really adds nothing more than obviously, as a child, you may have spent a lot of time thinking that say no no no enough times would actually make something go away or less true. we aren't children anymore and, contrary to popular belief, the bad guy CAN still get you even if you pull the blanket completely over your head.
Shutout
Footballguy
yep. saw that. I appologized. Too much time spent in rome; Iv'e become a roman...got a little hyper-sensitive there.
Abraham
Footballguy
As for my opinion I think both Williams and wells have underrated talent and could both be very solid runners. I also think we should taking bets on which one is seriously maimed first. That line is awful and the passing game is so bad the opposition could probably put 11 in the box if they chose.
Captain Hook
Footballguy
Williams has talent but wrong to say more talented than Wells ...... yes you can say faster, but you can also say dumber (I would bet on a rock)As HUCKS said there is no defining usage in AZ - curently it looks like they plan to use both BUT that assumes both can stay healthy ......... Cards will be lucky if either can play all season
Clifford
Footballguy
This is a joke, right? Just watch his carries in the Oak-AZ game and tell me you don't like what you see.I'm not saying he immediately supplants Beanie as the starter. I'm saying if this guy is sitting there when people are taking DST and kickers and backup TEs, I'm nabbing him on the longshot that the limited amount of what I have seen translates into more. And I have a pretty high opinion of Beanie.However I'm not delusional: Beanie's not fast. He'd be fast if he was a QB or a TE, but a 4.59 is kinda slow for RBs. That being said plenty of RBs have been productive with below average speed. But we're also talking about someone who has had injuries himself.I think AZ will need both of these guys to be competitive. If Williams consistently outshines Beanie (which I am betting he can) then I think he could be a nice play in the playoff run. That is worth every penny of a 10+ rd pick.
Last edited by a moderator:
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
It was only a year or two ago that people were talking about Beanie this way, talking about how talented he was...and that was after actually playing in the NFL. He was up there with Stewart for many people. Talk of his size/speed/talent combo was everywhere.
How quickly we forget when the new shiny toy comes along...even when that new shiny toy suffers a devastating injury and proves nothing. The biggest knock on Beanie is the injury one, and in his college/pro career so far RW has that knock against him as well. The only other one, besides a crappy situation which they both share, is talk of Beanie being "soft", but he's learning to play through injury.
I'm not saying that Ryan Williams is not talented. I'm saying that for some reason people seem to have arbitrarily forgotten how much talent they saw in Beanie in the past.
How quickly we forget when the new shiny toy comes along...even when that new shiny toy suffers a devastating injury and proves nothing. The biggest knock on Beanie is the injury one, and in his college/pro career so far RW has that knock against him as well. The only other one, besides a crappy situation which they both share, is talk of Beanie being "soft", but he's learning to play through injury.
I'm not saying that Ryan Williams is not talented. I'm saying that for some reason people seem to have arbitrarily forgotten how much talent they saw in Beanie in the past.
Last edited by a moderator:
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
It really doesn't matter which one is more talented. All Arizona RBs combined for only 378 total touches last year, and the Cards have been in that bottom of the league territory in RB touches for five years in a row. Any type of split between Wells and Williams (short of the 6:1 advantage Wells had over the number 2 last year) will result in both being fantasy garbage.
Last edited by a moderator:
Chaka
Footballguy
So is your conclusion that Beanie is the bell cow in Arizona and Williams is best drafted as a handcuff?
LHUCKS
Footballguy
You can fool me twice on Beanie, not three times.Williams is better.
Shutout
Footballguy
No, I think its reasonable to say he maintains a 65% or carry as the greater part of what will likely be some sort of RBBC; as it is with most teams that don't have an unquestioned stud. So, for reference based purely on last year's numbers as a team that ran the ball 378 times, 65% puts him at about 245 carries...pretty much right where he was last year I think. With some luck and a better defense, the Cards might run the ball slightly more...that's reasonable.In general, I don't see a big shift and that's what I was posting in regards to. A lot of posts seems to be talking about Beanie basically getting swept to the wayside.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Considering his situation, Beanie had a fine year last year, and very quietly, too. Over 1,000 yards, 10 TD's. Only missed two games, but had a couple stinkers as well. Is it the injuries? You can't throw that stone if you're touting RW over him.
I've watched the tape and personally only see a handful of jaw-dropping plays by Williams. Wells has an impressive college (and NFL) highlight reel. Someone needs to convince me the Williams will get Goalline carries because Beanie punched it in for a touchdown 10 times from there last season.
Otherwise, Beanie has got to still be the play. I expect Williams to get carries if Beanie gets dinged up but if anything that should make Beanie MORE efficient.
*shrugs*
I'm all in on Wells this year.
Otherwise, Beanie has got to still be the play. I expect Williams to get carries if Beanie gets dinged up but if anything that should make Beanie MORE efficient.
*shrugs*
I'm all in on Wells this year.
Frog
Footballguy
I believe there is a larger point to be made on Shutout's statements. There is a process that we can apply to these players that takes as much of the subjectivity out as we possibly can. There is good cause to be excited over a runner like Williams. He is a strong, downhill style runner that has the propensity to succeed at the prodfessional level. Having watched his college games, he is as skilled as everyone lauds him to be and gives reason why AZ drafted him so highly and so soon after Beanie. He is also a victim of his running style and at the NFL level has and may see more injury. I believe the more important question has nothing to do with either Williams or Wells' talents but the offensive line of the Cardinals. It is atrocious and it will lead to stifling the best of talents and will heap on added abuse to these runners that will not help their already injury riddled pasts. It is the nature of our hobby to seek out and find the diamonds in the rough and to argue this is simply wasting time. However, I do believe that we can add as much objective analysis as we can to sift through some of these young players to find the true value.
Oh, please, we also drafted Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie for a reason. Which was to apparently trade him and a 2nd Round pick away for Kevin Kolb. We also took Cody Brown (linebacker) in the 2nd Round a few years back.Not being a negative Nancy but there is certainly a counter-argument to that.Want to know what would convince me? Tell me strengths of his game and how he will fit into the Arizona Offense. Explain what situations Arizona would want him on the field over Beanie.I don't see it.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Fair points. I just think Williams is a better talent. It's a qualitative assessment, nothing that I can "prove" per se.
Sometimes teams simply take BPA. The Vikings took Toby Gerhart in the 2nd, not because they didn't have faith in Adrian Peterson but because they thought he was a far better player than those available around him.
Talent doesn't equal opportunity.
The Cardinals have a back that has injury / durability concerns, so they drafted a quality backup behind him. If Beanie goes down, Williams can probably have a great year. But the chances of Beanie going down are less because he has someone competent to "spell" him during the game.
Talent doesn't equal opportunity.
The Cardinals have a back that has injury / durability concerns, so they drafted a quality backup behind him. If Beanie goes down, Williams can probably have a great year. But the chances of Beanie going down are less because he has someone competent to "spell" him during the game.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I would like to see some team rushing projections from the pro-Wells crowd. From where I'm sitting, even 200 carries from any one Cardinal RB looks like a major stretch.
Why? What makes you think a team with arguably the WORST starting QB situation wouldn't have a Running Back that eclipsed 200 carries? Especially when those two backs were 1st and 2nd round picks respectively.Furthermore, Beanie Wells nearly reached 200 carries (176) his Rookie Season.
EDIT: 260 Carries / 1,170 Yards / 8 Touchdowns
(Wells was on pace for 280 Carries last year and played hurt.)
EDIT2: Let's bring some coachspeak into the equation:
"There's no concern with him at all with his health." - Ken Whisenhunt (Two days ago.)
"I saw from Beanie this year a toughness and commitment to staying with it no matter what happened," said Whiz. "... I was very impressed with how he fought every week to get back on the field when it would have been easy to say he couldn’t go. I respect him for that." - Ken Whisenhunt (End of last season.)
Wells wanted to continue playing through his knee injury, but Whiz decided it wasn't worth the risk. "I want to make sure people understand that was no reflection on Beanie," said Whisenhunt. "... I know the next time that we get Beanie on the football field, he'll be a heck of a lot more healthy than he was [sunday] and even the last five or six games." - Ken Whisenhunt (Rotoworld, week 17 deactivation.)
Last edited by a moderator:
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Fair enough, and that has a value all it's own that's impossible to really quantify. I believe that for seasoned NFL fans, we pick things up via the "eye test" that we aren't really capable of putting into words or describing. It takes a keen eye and lots of discipline, not to mention technical football acumen, to really break down what we're seeing like Waldman attempts to...but it's still there, and I think beneath the surface, many peoples' gut instincts about a guy can really be attributed to their subconsious eye for talent, even if they can't explain the "why" eloquently....now whether you should trust your gut is another thing entirely, but not being able to explain why you like what you see doesn't necessarily make your talent evaluations any less valid. But that's just a theory. We disagree on this one, but like you said, it's kind of subjective, and I guess we'll have to wait and see, health permitting.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Not really true to what you're saying--AP has never been the Vikings preferred 3rd down back. They drafted Gerhart to fill that role, and that's pretty much what he's done.Something similar COULD be said about Beanie and RW. Williams is a great complementary and 3rd down back, while Beanie can really pound the rock, punish a defense, and dominate the goal-line. Not that RW can't carry the load if healthy--just that I don't think there's a reason for that to happen as long as they are both Cardinals. Beanie is just a better fit for early-down and goal-line work.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Average total RB carries by Arizona in the two years post-Warner? 318. 260 for Wells, 48 for Williams, the RB3/4, and any FBs combined? Or are we going to see a change in system here leading to a big bump in overall rushing?
I believe they are going to run a different gameplan this year. Also, it's possible that Williams can play strictly on 3rd downs. I don't know how many times they will rush / pass to Williams on 3rd downs but I do know they have confidence with Beanie as a workhorse.Last year, they had no other option at RB. I expect Williams to take more snaps away from Stephens-Howling than Wells. If he does take Wells' snaps, it's probably just to keep him fresh.
I have not seen ANY Coachspeak from Arizona about this being a timeshare. Ken Whisenhunt is one of the most straightforward coaches in the league.
Last edited by a moderator:
LHUCKS
Footballguy
I can describe why I like him, just can't really quantify the qualitative stuff.He basically reminds me of a young Edge. Great vision, wiggle, low center, outside speed, receiving ability...he's the total package.
I would contest he is too small and not physical enough to steal a bulk of carries from the proven Beanie Wells.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV7LLBitLKMI'm not blown away.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
That's actually a pretty nice comparison. We'll continue to disagree on who is more talented between the two, but it's not because I don't really like RW. I just think that Beanie is incredibly undervalued for two reasons: 1. The horrible situation he's been stuck in (where he still quietly had a very good year, considering) and 2. The fact that most people play in PPR leagues and mistake higher value in PPR leagues as a sign of raw talent. Beanie won't have much to do with the passing game, but that doesn't make him less talented in every other facet of the game.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm done. There is no way a projection of 260 carries for Wells is based on a realistic team rushing perspective. Obviously you know this and are just blindly gulping the Wells kool aid, or you'd be willing to post some team numbers.
I know that Beanie was the lead back last year, he was on pace for 280 carries. I know that the Coaching Staff LOVES Beanie Wells. I have not seen a single quote from coaching staff suggesting that Williams will cut into these carries.I think it's more absurd to assume that a player who is essentially a rookie (coming off a significant knee injury) is going to significantly cut into a veteran's workload. Because he was a high-2nd pick? Isn't possible that they like him as a 3rd-down guy? Isn't it possible they like him to keep Beanie Wells fresh?Why is the only option that he will steal the starting job away from Wells? Did you watch the Cardinals play last year? Wells' play style fits into that scheme. Wells had 10 TD from his opponents goalline, Wells had a 200+ yard game last year, Wells is a fine player that this team is excited about, Wells was a 1st Round pick.But yeah, it's insane to think that he won't see the bulk of the carries again. It's insane to think they won't run the ball more with John Skelton under center and their starting Left Tackle (Levi Brown), hurt.Get frustrated and ignore everything Beanie has done. I gave you my projection, give me yours.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Remember way back in 2007 and 2008 people were talking about this big 25 year old RB who was coming off back to back 1000 yards seasons. In 2007 he had 1200 combined yards and 6 td's and then he followed that up with 1100 combined yards and 15 td's in 2008. He was big, tough to tackle, good speed for a big guy, but he always was dinged up, had suspect hands and just did not make a lot of people miss or offer dynamic play making ability. That RB was none other than Brandon Jacobs.
Now don't get me wrong being a Giants fan I know Jacobs served a purpose on offense as he did well in what he was asked to do in his roles in NY. However the offense looked much more dynamic and versatile with a rb like Bradshaw taking the bulk of the load. Bradshaw had a 1500 yard combined yardage season with 8 td's in 2010 and was a rb that was good at everything. Bradshaw's on worst enemey though was injury bug himself. He has glass ankles and his durability has cost him some great numbers.
I liken the Cardinals running back situation to that of what the Giants had. Beanie Wells is the Brandon Jacobs where he is not going to be complete phased out just yet and will still have a role for the time being, but it will be clear that Arizona will be much better on offense with a guy like Williams being the main guy.
Now don't get me wrong being a Giants fan I know Jacobs served a purpose on offense as he did well in what he was asked to do in his roles in NY. However the offense looked much more dynamic and versatile with a rb like Bradshaw taking the bulk of the load. Bradshaw had a 1500 yard combined yardage season with 8 td's in 2010 and was a rb that was good at everything. Bradshaw's on worst enemey though was injury bug himself. He has glass ankles and his durability has cost him some great numbers.
I liken the Cardinals running back situation to that of what the Giants had. Beanie Wells is the Brandon Jacobs where he is not going to be complete phased out just yet and will still have a role for the time being, but it will be clear that Arizona will be much better on offense with a guy like Williams being the main guy.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Wells is much more talented than Jacobs. Jacobs has always been the softest "bruiser" in the league. I called him the Tip-Toe Giant. With a head of steam he was a force to be reckoned with, but his upright running style and lack of explosiveness made him only above-average even in his prime.
I don't think Jacobs and Wells are all that comparable.
I don't think Jacobs and Wells are all that comparable.
I don't feel that Jacobs and Beanie are all that similar.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I guess Williams is starting to get some love and he's worthy of multiple threads now. I've always been in love with this kids agility, balance, and hops. Do check the spotlight on Ryan Williams for the last 2 yrs. I've been on his hype train since he came in the league. 
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
A very, very, very poor man's Giants, maybe. Arizona has been the worst running team in the NFL since Whiz took over five years ago, and they just lost their best run blocking o-lineman. Those NYG teams dominated the LOS on offense and beat teams into submission.
Last edited by a moderator:
DoubleG
Footballguy
LarryAllen'sJockstrap
Footballguy
What in god's name are you talking about? Power Monster alias? Have you fallen through the floor of any speeding cars recently and lived to pull yourself up out of the gutter?You completely over-reacted to Abe's post, which wasn't even directed towards you, and this is your level-headed response to someone finding that amusing?it puzzles me why people will take the time to read a thread or a post in particular and not actually answer the question asked or reply to it.Clicking on a smiling icon shaking its head really adds nothing more than obviously, as a child, you may have spent a lot of time thinking that say no no no enough times would actually make something go away or less true.
we aren't children anymore and, contrary to popular belief, the bad guy CAN still get you even if you pull the blanket completely over your head.
That post is sig-worthy.
3quinox
Footballguy
I guess I never specified why I think how I do and why I posted this thread. 1st: the mysterious "microscopic" knee surgery. If you look it up you will see beanie is just now getting around to playing level aka pre season game forml. The time he was out matches the time table of a small micro fracture knee surgery. This suspicion was boosted as he changed his story of the procedure and now it's still a mystery of what was operated on; a variety of doctors have said its odd and fits no rine table for a simple "clean" even our very own fbg's mentions it. 2nd: a new oc has made a new offensive scheme, both of which are new to beanie and Ryan. This means that both start with a clean slate (many said wells fits the cards style) this style is very fluid at this point and whether changes such as the screen pass are incorporated need to be addressed, kolb loves the check down while Skelton loves going deep with fitz, especially so with check down if/when the line collapses and the qb needs to dish the rock, a multiple facuted rb like Williams would thrive there (extra bump in Ppr). While it is valid that we have no nfl sample to go on, pre season has stated Williams has impressed. For those who say whiz has said only positive things about wells, so have they about Williams and his work ethic. I never said beanie would go away but rather asked if he could do better than wells. I feel he will with beanie carving out a role as we progress. We know what he is capable of last year but I want to see how the rehab has effected him this year. In the end both sides have valid points but I wanted to shed light on a rb4 with upside who offers better value than beanie at this time. I picked him off of waiver wires.
Ps this is from a phone so sorry for any run on sentences Or spelling errors
Ps this is from a phone so sorry for any run on sentences Or spelling errors
Last edited by a moderator:
