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My understanding was that they shopped him, but there wasn't much interest for a guy who was undersized and only had one decent season under his belt. His value to the Chargers as a starter for one more year of tutelage for Rivers was probably greater than his value in a trade.
The last year of Brees' rookie contract was 2004. That was his first good year. (He was horrible in 2003, which is why they took Rivers in the 2004 draft.) The Chargers weren't going to trade Brees mid-season when he was having a Pro Bowl year and the Chargers seemed on their way to the playoffs.In 2005, they franchised him.In 2006, maybe they would have franchised him again if he hadn't hurt his shoulder ... but the shoulder made it an easy decision to let him become a free agent.Couldn't they have traded him during the last year of his rookie contract (if I remember right, he only played out his rookie contract and didn't get an extension)? I can't believe it was that big for a guy drafted at the top of the 2nd round.Exactly. As I posted earlier in the thread, people refuse to accept the facts of the situation when they bash the Chargers for how they handled it.
The Chargers didn't draft Philip Rivers.
Eli Manning 1.01 situation and Drew Brees' shoulder injury have been forgotten by some. Both difficult situations that AJ Smith had to make decisions on. His biggest mistake as GM is hiring Norv Turner as the Chargers head coach but that can obviously be argued against as well.
Counting 2006, 2007, and the first 3 weeks of 2008:Brees:739 fantasy points scored in 1,322 passing attempts = 0.559 fantasy points per attemptRivers:591 fantasy points scored in 1,005 passing attempts = 0.588 fantasy points per attempt
Also consider the records of their teams in the games they started over that span (including postseason):Rivers 28-11Brees 19-18Sure, San Diego has had a stronger team, but this is just another data point to support the Chargers' decision to let Brees go.Counting 2006, 2007, and the first 3 weeks of 2008:Brees:739 fantasy points scored in 1,322 passing attempts = 0.559 fantasy points per attemptRivers:591 fantasy points scored in 1,005 passing attempts = 0.588 fantasy points per attempt
Updating their records since Brees was traded:Rivers 49-21Brees 41-27 and countingAlso consider the records of their teams in the games they started over that span (including postseason):Rivers 28-11Brees 19-18Sure, San Diego has had a stronger team, but this is just another data point to support the Chargers' decision to let Brees go.Counting 2006, 2007, and the first 3 weeks of 2008:Brees:739 fantasy points scored in 1,322 passing attempts = 0.559 fantasy points per attemptRivers:591 fantasy points scored in 1,005 passing attempts = 0.588 fantasy points per attempt
Same here.After SD got eliminated this was the matchup I was hoping for. I'll be hoping for NO on the moneyline + over on a parlay. Let's hope for a shootout.
Not sure about that. Fans tend to think the grass is always greener on the other side-- should've gotten Coach X, we need to put the backup in there, gotta get that free agent wide receiver. Considering Brees' success, it's a real testament to Rivers that SD fans are still thinking he's the better pick, or it's close enough that they're happy with their decision.If a team let go a guy who puts up Brees' numbers and takes a team to a Super Bowl, they guy who was given the starting job better be pretty special to avoid an avalanche of criticism. I think Rivers has earned that.
Rivers was 3rd in this year's MVP vote, behind Manning and Brees. He was 3rd in the league in QB rating this year, and he was 1st last year. Those are pretty good arguments that right now he is a top 3 NFL QB.
Interesting point. I think it may depend on what team's fans we are talking about. For Bear fans, the grass is always greener because the grass is actually always greener.
But I'm not sure this applies to the legit franchises in the league.
You're a fan it's ok.My opinion is different that yours is all.
Sounds like an argument from somebody who doesn't watch football, but loves stats.
LOL. As somebody who's not a SD fan...Who goes up there?
I doubt the bolded is true. They would have eaten a substantial cap hit had they traded Rivers at that time... IIRC it would have been 8 million or so. Furthermore, while the Chargers got to see Rivers in practice and obviously had a lot of confidence in him, the rest of the league did not get to see him play, so I'm not sure he would have brought a lot of value in a trade. IMO these issues were as significant a factor as Brees's injury, if not more so, but this is often overlooked in these discussions.
I don't think A.J. would have traded Rivers. Brees's shoulder injury just made it easier for A.J. to do what he was probably going to have to do anyway, maybe a year sooner than otherwise. I'm not saying that's the right call, but A.J. had/has way too much invested in Rivers (and yes that includes ego) to deal him. And on paper if you view the two guys as equivalent in most other areas of importance you're probably going to go with the younger taller guy.
Younger, taller, and significantly cheaper. (At least at that time.)
Well I wasn't going to go here, but ok.. I'll play.#1 P. Manning
I think that's every bit as good a list. The 4-8 or so guys are close for a lot of people. I would put, as I did, Rivers above Roth, and Rodgerss as well. The 3 "R's" go right there.One thing I have definitely noticed about Rivers is his deep ball. I think, eye test, he's the best in the league, with Brady/Rodgers and Roth/McNabb following.
LOL at McNabb over Rivers. The others you have ranked higher are more reasonable IMO, and mostly a matter of taste/perception.However, your stated criteria doesn't really seem to fit your rankings, particularly for Rivers. Career winning percentages for your top 8 and top 3 tiers:
I think it's strongly related to the .429 in the postseason. There's only 2 guys worse than that in that list. Of course one of them is ranked ahead of Rivers.
I suppose that's the only valid answer. But given he's only played in 7 postseason games, IMO it's hard to justify throwing out his overall winning percentage being third among these players for such a small sample size. And he fits all the other stated criteria quite well.I think it's strongly related to the .429 in the postseason. There's only 2 guys worse than that in that list. Of course one of them is ranked ahead of Rivers.
I suppose I can see that Flacco side, good points. Although the flip side to that is...Mat Ryan has won and done even less.I think Romo's"big game" crap is overblown. He can't throw from his back, and even the best can't keep up with the points that defense allows in the biggest games.Rivers may not have been the best...but he's the only guy in recent history to knock Peyton Manning out of the playoffs. That's gotta count for something, no? And I think ti is worth mentioning that one of his playoff losses is when he played on a torn ACL, against the Patriots. I'm cuttin him a little slack there. Tough as nails.Based on what you seem to say you value, I don't understand what justifies Rodgers? I would have thought Rivers your #5 with the emphasis on the winning aspect of football and not the physical skills and talent that I tend to emphasize a bit more. Based on your reasoning, I would have expected McNabb and Rodgers below Rivers. Just comes off as a bit hypocriticalFrom what I've seen in big games, Flacco doesn't show up. And it looks like the coaches hide him behind the run game...which worked vs the Pats. I think Flacco completed 3 or 4 passes all day...But it was exposed the next week. They were down 2 scores late, and they still wouldn't let him throw the ball downfield. Ray Rice is really good and all, but c'mon.He's going into his 3rd year and granted their WR situation blows...so I will save final judgment until I see him win a big game. Matt Ryan, to me is the prototypical QB. Don't get me wrong, I've seen him spit the bit too...I just like him more than Flacco right now.The gap is b/c of the ability to win big games. McNabb has a ton of talent, no doubt...but he plays horribly in big games (franky most of of that is on Andy Reid and the play calling..)Phil Rivers is also a very good QB, but that pick he threw late against the Jets was horrible. Top 3-4 QB's don't do that. I know Nate Kaeding yadda yadda....When the Chargers win a big game, then I'll come around. Tony Romo? Do I need to go into detail?
I don't think so. Last year's 23-17 playoff win was all about the SD defense, Sproles and their punter (cannot remember his name, but he had a ridiculously awesome game, constantly pinning the Colts offense deep); Rivers had a decent game at best, so saying he knocked Peyton Manning out of the playoffs is a huge reach.
Scifres is the punter IIRC?And if Big Ben won his first Super Bowl and his postseason wins go to his credit...then so does Rivers beating Peyton. Can't have it both ways.
Playing devil's advocate here - he's got a pretty bad td/int ratio in those 7 games at 8/9. I don't know what it is for the other guys.I suppose that's the only valid answer. But given he's only played in 7 postseason games, IMO it's hard to justify throwing out his overall winning percentage being third among these players for such a small sample size. And he fits all the other stated criteria quite well.I think it's strongly related to the .429 in the postseason. There's only 2 guys worse than that in that list. Of course one of them is ranked ahead of Rivers.
Mark Sanchez knocked Philip Rivers out of the playoffs this year.
Ok.ETA: look, all I'm sayin is that if you measure a QB on wins, you count the wins. You don't say "well the losses are on him, but the wins belong to the defense." Especially if you are giving Roth the credit for his postseason wins
I think most Chargers fans like Brees and root for him.He has developed so much over these years...but I remember his first 3 seasons and was one of those rooting for a new QB at the time, prior to his blooming!I have liked Rivers from day 1...and have seen him progress amazingly well too!I think both QBs are great!
Super Bowl Apperences?PeaceGhost Rider said:
It seems the Chargers were in a no lose situation. If Brees wasn't coming off injury, maybe they could have traded him. I can't imagine many teams making a different decision at that time, and they have both turned out to be very good QBs.DanFouts said:I think most Chargers fans like Brees and root for him.He has developed so much over these years...but I remember his first 3 seasons and was one of those rooting for a new QB at the time, prior to his blooming!I have liked Rivers from day 1...and have seen him progress amazingly well too!I think both QBs are great!
Here's a breakdown of my assessments for each QB, not that it matters, but it may explain my list and where people went...Flacco - great arm, but hasn't been allowed to show he can win a playoff game with it. Needs some WRs and to let him loose before any real judgements can be made.Romo - agree with you, I like Romo as a QB, but he really needs to win more than one playoff game for me to make a solid decision. But I do like Romo and wouldn't be sad if he were my teams QB.Rivers - He's a very good regular season QB, for whatever reason, he and the Chargers haven't been able to get it done in the playoffs. Until he does, my respect for him isn't that high. Playoff success is EVERYTHING to me.Rodgers - Still raw, but has improved by leaps and bounds. Not many here don't believe that he will be an absolute force in the upcoming seasons.McNabb - I live in philly so I get the inside scoop. Andy Reid is killing this guy. If and when he moves on to another system, I guarantee he wins a SB (unless it's to the Lions or something) 5 NFC Championship games and a SB appearance has to count for something.These are my opinions and not trying to slight anyone's fav player. But I think what I've said is pretty accurate.Instinctive said:
What don't you like about River's game when watching him?
It does? How do you figure? I watch plenty of football, and I'm sure I've seen Rivers play a lot more than you have.Your comment sounds a lot like an argument from somebody who has been bashing Rivers for years. Which you have been. And why is that? What is your axe to grind with Rivers? I'm not aware that he ever did anything to the PAC 10.
