Scott Rolen to the Reds (1 Viewer)

[Please See Mine]

WTF?

 

[MrPhoenix]

Edwin Encarnacion should be ashamed that he's going to lose playing time to a fossil.

 

[Please See Mine]

No link. Mad Dog reporting on Sirius.

 

[ianfitzy]

Edwin Encarnacion and Yonder Alonso for Rolen.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Edwin Encarnacion and Yonder Alonso for Rolen.

That had better not be true.

 

[ThaPenguin]

Edwin Encarnacion and Yonder Alonso for Rolen.

Holy Jeebus, please don't be true.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

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Is this a record for the baseball forum?Nick Johnson to the fish.

3:00pm: A 180 in this rumor - FOX now says the Marlins acquired Johnson for Double A lefty Aaron Thompson, with the Nats paying Johnson's remaining salary.

 

[Limp Ditka]

And EE's headed to Toronto, so he won't be losing playing time

This is a steal for Toronto. Great deal

 

[ThaPenguin]

Word around here is that the minor leaguers are Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

 

[Northern Voice]

Huh?

The Reds are even worse than the Jays.

 

[cheese]

Word around here is that the minor leaguers are Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Pretty obvious that the Alonso rumor was untrue. Still, I don't like this trade unless the BJ's picked up some of Rolen's money.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Word around here is that the minor leaguers are Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Stewart has looked good in his transition to SP, but that'd be tons better than Alonso. Still, Rolen is another big contract without much for the future. Bad news on Volquez seems likely too. Ugh.

 

[Northern Voice]

Word around here is that the minor leaguers are Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart.

Pretty obvious that the Alonso rumor was untrue. Still, I don't like this trade unless the BJ's picked up some of Rolen's money.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9876768...B-Rolen-to-RedsToronto third baseman Scott Rolen has been traded to the Reds, one major league source told FOXSports.com.

Rolen, who has a full no-trade clause, has approved the deal. In return, the Jays will acquire third baseman Edwin Encarnacion and 2008 first-round pick Yonder Alonso, an infielder.

Rolen won a World Series while playing for current Reds general manager Walt Jocketty in St. Louis. Cincinnati officials have been looking for a right-handed hitter such as Rolen for much of the season.

Rolen is having his best year since 2006, batting .320 with eight home runs and 43 RBIs.

Acquiring Rolen gives the Reds a head start on planning for 2010, since he is already under contract for next year at $11 million. The Mariners took the same approach earlier this week, when they acquired shortstop Jack Wilson from Pittsburgh.

 

[Jene Bramel]

Cincinnati Enquirer (John Fay) reporting? that it's Encarnacion, Stewart and Roenicke (as ThaPenguin noted). Saw a note somewhere that said Keith Law said Alonso was not in the deal.

 

[MrPhoenix]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

 

[Limp Ditka]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

They got raped with just giving up EERolen's 8 years older and on the wrong side of 30. EE's just hitting his prime years and doesn't cost $11m next year.

 

[plinko]

What?

 

[Eephus]

I think we have a winner of the worst deadline trade of the year

 

[jobarules]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

They got raped with just giving up EERolen's 8 years older and on the wrong side of 30. EE's just hitting his prime years and doesn't cost $11m next year.

Encarnacion sucks

 

[RnR]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

They got raped with just giving up EERolen's 8 years older and on the wrong side of 30. EE's just hitting his prime years and doesn't cost $11m next year.

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

 

[shuke]

Won't really miss EE, but throwing Stewart in the deal for a 34 year old?

 

[Limp Ditka]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

They got raped with just giving up EERolen's 8 years older and on the wrong side of 30. EE's just hitting his prime years and doesn't cost $11m next year.

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

With a name like that, there's no way that's a comment

From what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.

That means

- Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year

- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years

- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.

- They also got two prospects in return

This could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.h

Ricciardi didn't even bring lube.

 

[jobarules]

With a name like that, there's no way that's a commentFrom what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.That means - Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.- They also got two prospects in returnThis could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.hRicciardi didn't even bring lube.

I dont necessarily disagree with anything you say here except Encarnacion sucks. He has no upside. What you see is what you get.

 

[RnR]

If it's Edwin and Alsonso, the Reds got absolutely raped here.

They got raped with just giving up EERolen's 8 years older and on the wrong side of 30. EE's just hitting his prime years and doesn't cost $11m next year.

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

With a name like that, there's no way that's a comment

From what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.

That means

- Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year

- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years

- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.

- They also got two prospects in return

This could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.h

Ricciardi didn't even bring lube.

Ok, you are right. Walt Jocketty has no idea what he's doing, J.P. Ricciardi is a genius. Track record certainly supports your claim on this one.The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Rolen had a severe shoulder injury a few years ago. The guy is a much better baseball player than EE, period. You can argue until you are blue in the face that EE is younger and cheaper, but that doesn't make him better.

Want to take a statistical look at this?

2009

Rolen: .320/.370/.476 with GG caliber defense

EE: .209/.333/.374 with below average defense

Career

Rolen: .284/.370/.500 with 6 Gold Gloves

EE: .262/.345/.449 with 0 Gold Gloves

Bottom line, the Reds were fed up with EE. He has underwhelmed, and shown a real poor attitude in the process. He has done nothing to make himself better at the plate, and continues to be a problem in the field. The Reds don't view EE as a long-term solution at 3B anymore, so the "upside" card doesn't play. They see a revitalized Rolen as a good gamble for 1 1/2 years. They're committing to him through his 35-year-old season. Let's not paint this into something it isn't.

But, hey, I'm just a "Scott Rolen homer." Whatever that is...

 

[Balco]

With a name like that, there's no way that's a commentFrom what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.That means - Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.- They also got two prospects in returnThis could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.hRicciardi didn't even bring lube.

I dont necessarily disagree with anything you say here except Encarnacion sucks. He has no upside. What you see is what you get.

And EE is going to start costing the Blue Jays far more than he is worth in arbitration. I understand the trade financially for the Blue Jays, but I am not sure what direction the Reds are looking to go in. Yes, Rolen is a great defender, and a solid hitter, but he is a huge injury risk. I would think the Reds would want to go younger.

 

[RedRaiders]

The Reds honestly think they can win next year, that's why they made the move. Toronto agreed to pay his remaining salary for this season. I read somewhere that the owner or GM tried to spin it like he was a hometown kid and it would boost sales. From what I've read, he grew up closer to St. Louis, not cincy (3 hrs?).

 

[Balco]

The Reds honestly think they can win next year, that's why they made the move. Toronto agreed to pay his remaining salary for this season. I read somewhere that the owner or GM tried to spin it like he was a hometown kid and it would boost sales. From what I've read, he grew up closer to St. Louis, not cincy (3 hrs?).

The offense has potential, Rolen should hit around .300, and Votto is going to just get better and better. The big question is, will Jay Bruce ever fulfill his promise? he was atrocious before getting injured. With Volquez going down, there is not enough pitching depth. Harang and Cueto are fine, but like Jay Bruce, can Homer Bailey fulfill his promise or is he just a AAAA pitcher?

 

[Limp Ditka]

h

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

With a name like that, there's no way that's a comment

From what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.

That means

- Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year

- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years

- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.

- They also got two prospects in return

This could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.h

Ricciardi didn't even bring lube.

Ok, you are right. Walt Jocketty has no idea what he's doing, J.P. Ricciardi is a genius. Track record certainly supports your claim on this one.The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Rolen had a severe shoulder injury a few years ago. The guy is a much better baseball player than EE, period. You can argue until you are blue in the face that EE is younger and cheaper, but that doesn't make him better.

Want to take a statistical look at this?

2009

Rolen: .320/.370/.476 with GG caliber defense

EE: .209/.333/.374 with below average defense

Career

Rolen: .284/.370/.500 with 6 Gold Gloves

EE: .262/.345/.449 with 0 Gold Gloves

Bottom line, the Reds were fed up with EE. He has underwhelmed, and shown a real poor attitude in the process. He has done nothing to make himself better at the plate, and continues to be a problem in the field. The Reds don't view EE as a long-term solution at 3B anymore, so the "upside" card doesn't play. They see a revitalized Rolen as a good gamble for 1 1/2 years. They're committing to him through his 35-year-old season. Let's not paint this into something it isn't.

But, hey, I'm just a "Scott Rolen homer." Whatever that is...

Well, since the Reds don't think he has upside, that must mean he doesn't. They are obviously the pinnacle when it comes to assessing and developing MLB talent over the last decade so it's hard to go against what they've determined. But I'm just crazy enough to do that.Again, the kid's only 26 and has 4 years under his belt. He simply has room to mature and improve. The fact that you, as well as the perennial contender that is the Reds, fail to see that is comical. And if the Reds did this move because they think they have a shot next year, then I don't know what to say.

And how about you not painting this into something it isn't? If he continues to suck, who says they have to offer him arbitration? They can let him walk after next year, still save $9m and still come out ahead in this deal from just a financial stance, and still have 2 prospects that can develop.

 

[Balco]

h

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

With a name like that, there's no way that's a comment

From what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.

That means

- Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year

- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years

- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.

- They also got two prospects in return

This could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.h

Ricciardi didn't even bring lube.

Ok, you are right. Walt Jocketty has no idea what he's doing, J.P. Ricciardi is a genius. Track record certainly supports your claim on this one.The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Rolen had a severe shoulder injury a few years ago. The guy is a much better baseball player than EE, period. You can argue until you are blue in the face that EE is younger and cheaper, but that doesn't make him better.

Want to take a statistical look at this?

2009

Rolen: .320/.370/.476 with GG caliber defense

EE: .209/.333/.374 with below average defense

Career

Rolen: .284/.370/.500 with 6 Gold Gloves

EE: .262/.345/.449 with 0 Gold Gloves

Bottom line, the Reds were fed up with EE. He has underwhelmed, and shown a real poor attitude in the process. He has done nothing to make himself better at the plate, and continues to be a problem in the field. The Reds don't view EE as a long-term solution at 3B anymore, so the "upside" card doesn't play. They see a revitalized Rolen as a good gamble for 1 1/2 years. They're committing to him through his 35-year-old season. Let's not paint this into something it isn't.

But, hey, I'm just a "Scott Rolen homer." Whatever that is...

Well, since the Reds don't think he has upside, that must mean he doesn't. They are obviously the pinnacle when it comes to assessing and developing MLB talent over the last decade so it's hard to go against what they've determined. But I'm just crazy enough to do that.Again, the kid's only 26 and has 4 years under his belt. He simply has room to mature and improve. The fact that you, as well as the perennial contender that is the Reds, fail to see that is comical. And if the Reds did this move because they think they have a shot next year, then I don't know what to say.

And how about you not painting this into something it isn't? If he continues to suck, who says they have to offer him arbitration? They can let him walk after next year, still save $9m and still come out ahead in this deal from just a financial stance, and still have 2 prospects that can develop.

I definitely think this is the route the Jays will take.

 

[On The Rocks]

I think Paul Daugherty really nails it here:

Wrong Time

Baseball might be a buffet line in Boston and New York. Here, we’re always on a diet. If we’re not strict about it, if we ditch the grilled salmon for the chocolate mousse, we’ll never get the body we want.

The Reds can’t trade two young arms for Scott Rolen, a 34-year-old third baseman due $11 million next year. No one outside the executive offices at Pretty Good American Ball Park will argue this point. Neither will some inside the executive offices.

The Big Man’s paws are all over this one. Look: I love the guy. Bob Castellini’s passion roars all over the ballpark. He wants to do right by the fans. But he’s beyond impatient with wanting to Win Now. Even if it’s just to finish 82-80. It’s starting to hurt his team.

It doesn’t help that the lieutenant Castellini brought in to tame the Big Man’s instincts has pretty much gone along for the ride. GM Walt Jocketty blessed the deal entirely.

But we digress.

The Reds aren’t going to contend this year. With the double whammy of the trade and the loss until next August of Edinson Volquez, they’re not contending next year, either. Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo and Francisco Cordero are owed $35 million next season. Harang is as trade-able now as Manhattan for beads.

Apparently, the Reds aren’t on the hook for all of Rolen’s $11 million in 2010. Jocketty wouldn’t say what the team’s obligation is, so feel free to wonder. Not that it matters. This was a short-term move by a club that has to think long term with everything it does. The Reds sell the hens, then wonder where the eggs went. It’s bad thinking from an organization that needs to be smart every day, just to compete.

This isn’t about Rolen. By all accounts, he’s a solid veteran, someone to add maturity to the home clubhouse. He’s a vast upgrade in the field. He can still hit, even if his offensive numbers the last four years are not notably better than those of the guy he’s replacing, Edwin Encarnacion. If trades were judged on intangibles, the Reds just committed grand larceny. They’re not.

Rolen is the guy you add when you’re a piece from winning something. You want to look good at the Oscars? Rolen is the diamonds for the wrist, the pearls for the neck. This just in: The Reds aren’t going to the Oscars.

It doesn’t matter if Scott Rolen is Clubhouse MVP or if he’s going to field like Brooks Robinson and hit like Frank. Maybe he’ll do all that. The Reds cannot win on the fly. They can’t contend while rebuilding. They’re only putting lipstick on a flying pig. They’ve tried that for almost a decade. The results speak for themselves.

Cincinnati gave up two young pitchers for Rolen. A major league scout said Monday that Zach Stewart was Cincinnati’s best pitching prospect. The Reds controlled Josh Roenicke for four more years. No one sheds tears over the departure of Encarnacion, whose future here was history, and whose past and present were symbolic of an amotivated clubhouse.

But trading credible young pitching for a relative senior citizen is not how you win in small-money places like this one. Especially when the contending portion of the 2009 program is over. Rolen is an uptown pickup. The Reds are downtown.

Whatever they pay Rolen next year, it’ll be more than the $4.75 million owed Encarnacion. And there is no reason to believe the Reds will be adding payroll in ‘10. Rolen was the player the Reds needed in January or March, or even a month ago. Now he’s the chocolate mousse, wrecking the diet.

You eat the wrong stuff, you get the body you deserve.

 

[On The Rocks]

Nice to see that three days after they deal Stewart - it is announced the Volquez is out for the next 12 months.

 

[Limp Ditka]

h

Encarnacion sucks

Some really inflated perceptions of EE in here. He's one of the worst fielding 3B in the league, he has a terrible attitude, and he hasn't hit at all this season.

Rolen is one of the best of all-time defensively at 3rd, seems to have found his stroke (minus the 30 HR power), and is a gritty veteran presence that the Reds desperately need. He's certainly an upgrade over EE in his current state. Toronto is picking up the tab on part of Rolen's contract (the specifics are unknown at this point).

Seeing that Alonso wasn't involved in this trade, I think the Reds will be just fine with this.

With a name like that, there's no way that's a comment

From what I've seen Toronto's basically paying the rest of this year ($4m) and that's it.

That means

- Toronto gets almost $10m off of the books next year

- That $12m is in the form of a 34 year old player that has played more than 3/4 of the season once in the last 4 years

- In return. they got a 26 year old, who still has upside, with 4 years of MLB experience.

- They also got two prospects in return

This could turn into the Pirates trading Aramis Ramirez, but dumber as at least Pittsburgh tried to get upside guys in return.h

Ricciardi didn't even bring lube.

Ok, you are right. Walt Jocketty has no idea what he's doing, J.P. Ricciardi is a genius. Track record certainly supports your claim on this one.The only reason we're even having this conversation is because Rolen had a severe shoulder injury a few years ago. The guy is a much better baseball player than EE, period. You can argue until you are blue in the face that EE is younger and cheaper, but that doesn't make him better.

Want to take a statistical look at this?

2009

Rolen: .320/.370/.476 with GG caliber defense

EE: .209/.333/.374 with below average defense

Career

Rolen: .284/.370/.500 with 6 Gold Gloves

EE: .262/.345/.449 with 0 Gold Gloves

Bottom line, the Reds were fed up with EE. He has underwhelmed, and shown a real poor attitude in the process. He has done nothing to make himself better at the plate, and continues to be a problem in the field. The Reds don't view EE as a long-term solution at 3B anymore, so the "upside" card doesn't play. They see a revitalized Rolen as a good gamble for 1 1/2 years. They're committing to him through his 35-year-old season. Let's not paint this into something it isn't.

But, hey, I'm just a "Scott Rolen homer." Whatever that is...

Well, since the Reds don't think he has upside, that must mean he doesn't. They are obviously the pinnacle when it comes to assessing and developing MLB talent over the last decade so it's hard to go against what they've determined. But I'm just crazy enough to do that.

Again, the kid's only 26 and has 4 years under his belt. He simply has room to mature and improve. The fact that you, as well as the perennial contender that is the Reds, fail to see that is comical. And if the Reds did this move because they think they have a shot next year, then I don't know what to say.

And how about you not painting this into something it isn't? If he continues to suck, who says they have to offer him arbitration? They can let him walk after next year, still save $9m and still come out ahead in this deal from just a financial stance, and still have 2 prospects that can develop.

 

[Limp Ditka]

To be fair, Reds did somehow win the Central in 2010, and Rolen had a pretty good season. But since then.... oof.

This move just reeked of Dusty and his hard-on for veterans. Today, it's costing them in both talent and dollars.

EE's making $3.5M, while Rolen's milking the Reds franchise for more than double that $8.16M. That's $4.66M this year alone. No idea what it maths up to when you combine the last few years.

Unknown would be how EE developed at 3B since no DH and Votto manning 1st. Certainly would not have been the caliber of Rolen, but it would have been interesting to see.

 

[r0llin_game]

Pretty sure I'd rather have Rolen's glove than Edwin's bat at this point still.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Pretty sure I'd rather have Rolen's glove than Edwin's bat at this point still.

It's all yours, for this year and this year only, for the low low price of $4.66M

 

[Limp Ditka]

Pretty sure I'd rather have Rolen's glove than Edwin's bat at this point still.

It's all yours, for this year and this year only, for the low low price of $4.66M

And hopefully it's on the field for more than the 100ish games he's averaged over the last 5 years.

 

[r0llin_game]

I'm 100% fine with that. Our IF is set for years as far deep into high A ball. Cozart will eventually move to 3B and he has enough power to hit 20HR and is more than capable of winning a gold glove. If we had Edwin at 3B, pretty sure he'd have close to 10 E's already.

 

[Northern Voice]

This trade from Jays side is complicated.

Don't forget that Edwin was DFA'd by Jays, was briefly an Athletic, then returned to Toronto on a cheap contract.

Zach Stewart was the only real piece the Jays gave up to get Colby Rasmus, so there's that too.

I loved Rolen but Edwin is mashing and add that it enabled the Jays to get Rasmus and I'm pretty happy with how this turned out.

 

[cheese]

Not surprising this thread was bumped. Personally, I'd rather have EE as a player this year than Rolen by a long shot.

The trade was a huge win for the Reds for 2010-2011 when you factor in Rolen's leadership and contributions to the 2010 team. It's evening out now. Isn't that what people expected though? It was a short term deal for the Reds and a long-term deal for the Jays.

 

[r0llin_game]

I do remember seeing Edwin in AAA when I went to a dollar beer night out here in Vegas. Good times.

 

[Eephus]

Thread bump in honor of Rolen's likely retirement. It's too bad that he goes out striking out with the game on the line after committing the series changing error, but that doesn't diminish an excellent career. His 75 career fWAR compares well with Santo and probably places him toward the bottom of the top ten of all-time third basemen.

He's appeared in 2023 career games, every one of them at third.