Serial Podcast (spoilers starting at post #14) (1 Viewer)

[Neofight]

Long story short: I basically think Jay framed Adnan for something that he has intimate knowledge of. The possible reasons he would have knowledge of the murder are quite a few, and I've alluded to them previously... but as I have learned more I am slowly coming to the realization that perhaps he actually did the deed himself. Jay is quite possibly not just lying, but projecting.

Ok, if that's the case can you answer my questions above? What was jay's motive, who helped him, and what was his opportunity (i.e. How did he meet up with Hae)?

Motive is like some inverse beauty; you can see it one way and others will see it another. Motive is more often just lawyer spin and not really useful in determining the "how" of a case (or even the "why"). What was Adnan's motive? (that's rhetorical)

This is a very well-written way to say that you have no idea.

No idea of what? Motive? How about Jay was feeling so much animal rage at the time?Motive is meaningless.

Well, that's very convenient for your theory. What a coincidence!

It's really not convenient for people that are falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned. But You take a stab at it: what was Syed's motive?

I didn't say it was convenient for people that are falsey accused and wrongfully imprisoned. I said it was convenient for your theory.

I can't say for certain what Syed's motive was, but I can come up with some plausible ones that make it more reasonable to think (i.e. lower the amount of reasonable doubt) that he did it. I think that's what the prosecution did. Nobody is saying Syed should be hanged based on the existence of a motive alone, but to say that motive is meaningless is absurd on its face, and undermines your credibility.

Have you ever known someone who was wrongfully imprisoned? How about murdered? I have on both accounts, and I can tell you from experience that motive is window dressing to the nuts and bolts of a case.

Ahhh I think I know where this is going. I get the feeling that you're about to slam your race card down on the table.

What would my motive be to do that?

 

[bigmarc27]

Long story short: I basically think Jay framed Adnan for something that he has intimate knowledge of. The possible reasons he would have knowledge of the murder are quite a few, and I've alluded to them previously... but as I have learned more I am slowly coming to the realization that perhaps he actually did the deed himself. Jay is quite possibly not just lying, but projecting.

Ok, if that's the case can you answer my questions above? What was jay's motive, who helped him, and what was his opportunity (i.e. How did he meet up with Hae)?

Motive is like some inverse beauty; you can see it one way and others will see it another. Motive is more often just lawyer spin and not really useful in determining the "how" of a case (or even the "why"). What was Adnan's motive? (that's rhetorical)

This is a very well-written way to say that you have no idea.

Motive is meaningless.

lol

...and I'm done.

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

Scorned lover not work for you? It's the oldest motive known to man.

No, it really doesn't given the facts of the case. It worked for a group of disinterested jurors who had no concept of the 5th amendment rights andwould've rather been at Walmart. though. I guess that is good enough?

Well since you know what the jurors were thinking 15 years ago during these trials, I suppose there's nowhere else to go. It amazes me that you were able to conclude his innocence by listening to this 10 hour podcast, but their feeble minds were unable to think critically and just bought everyone's lies for the weeks they sat in that courtroom.

I didn't say he was innocent. I sad that the evidence doesn't point to him. At all. Juries in general are disinterested. Two hours on a case with this little evidence tells me they were practically comatose. And don't assume that I only listened to the podcast, especially when I've indicated otherwise.

Right, you've also read blogs. I suspect you'll need a bit more for a dissertation on the subject.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Neo, I'm intrigued by this case, and I'm not 100% sold it was Syed. I'm certainly not sold there was enough evidence to convict him. I'm open to hearing what you have researched, I just have a serious issue with having no idea why Jay would do this. It all seems a little too convenient.

 

[bigmarc27]

Seems like you've got an axe to grind. We've got clueless juries, lying cops, disinterested defense attorneys, empty motives, etc... Maybe I'm just a bigger fan of Occam's razor than most, but your theories are a bit extreme.

 

[Neofight]

Long story short: I basically think Jay framed Adnan for something that he has intimate knowledge of. The possible reasons he would have knowledge of the murder are quite a few, and I've alluded to them previously... but as I have learned more I am slowly coming to the realization that perhaps he actually did the deed himself. Jay is quite possibly not just lying, but projecting.

Ok, if that's the case can you answer my questions above? What was jay's motive, who helped him, and what was his opportunity (i.e. How did he meet up with Hae)?

Motive is like some inverse beauty; you can see it one way and others will see it another. Motive is more often just lawyer spin and not really useful in determining the "how" of a case (or even the "why"). What was Adnan's motive? (that's rhetorical)

This is a very well-written way to say that you have no idea.

No idea of what? Motive? How about Jay was feeling so much animal rage at the time?

Motive is meaningless.

Well, that's very convenient for your theory. What a coincidence!

It's really not convenient for people that are falsely accused and wrongfully imprisoned. But You take a stab at it: what was Syed's motive?

I didn't say it was convenient for people that are falsey accused and wrongfully imprisoned. I said it was convenient for your theory.

I can't say for certain what Syed's motive was, but I can come up with some plausible ones that make it more reasonable to think (i.e. lower the amount of reasonable doubt) that he did it. I think that's what the prosecution did. Nobody is saying Syed should be hanged based on the existence of a motive alone, but to say that motive is meaningless is absurd on its face, and undermines your credibility.

Have you ever known someone who was wrongfully imprisoned? How about murdered? I have on both accounts, and I can tell you from experience that motive is window dressing to the nuts and bolts of a case.

I'm sorry that you know someone who was wrongfully imprisoned and someone else who was murdered. Truly, I am. That would be terrible.

But whether or not motive was used as a window dressing in a trial of someone you know who was wrongfully imprisoned does not make motive "meaningless." I bet if you didn't look at an isolated case, and thought about all murders, you would find that the vast majority of them had a motive. So if you want to say that Jay did it and framed Syed, it would just help the credibility of that theory if you could answer the question as to why Jay would be interested in murdering Hae in the first place.

Thanks for the sentiments. It is terrible, and in the case of both motive was never really established (though in the case of an in-law through marriage who was wrongfully accused of rape, we can guess what the motive of his ex-wife was)

You are taking my statement about specific cases and making it into something more general though. My point is that the motive presented by the cops and prosecution in this particular case was just completely lacking in anything resembling substance. Motive is great to get you to a point where you've "narrowed down the field" so to speak. But if you don't have ####, you better keep looking. Motive got these detectives and this particular prosecutor in more trouble than if they had simply examined the evidence that was sitting in their possession.

 

[Neofight]

Seems like you've got an axe to grind. We've got clueless juries, lying cops, disinterested defense attorneys, empty motives, etc... Maybe I'm just a bigger fan of Occam's razor than most, but your theories are a bit extreme.

Please define Occam's razor.

 

[Buckychudd]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

 

[bigmarc27]

Seems like you've got an axe to grind. We've got clueless juries, lying cops, disinterested defense attorneys, empty motives, etc... Maybe I'm just a bigger fan of Occam's razor than most, but your theories are a bit extreme.

Please define Occam's razor.

C&P

The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

 

[Soulfly3]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

 

[Neofight]

Seems like you've got an axe to grind. We've got clueless juries, lying cops, disinterested defense attorneys, empty motives, etc... Maybe I'm just a bigger fan of Occam's razor than most, but your theories are a bit extreme.

Please define Occam's razor.

C&P

The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Haha. Who has been making assumptions?

 

[Neofight]

It's been a treat, gentlemen. Stay tuned. This case is just picking up some steam. I have no idea what will happen; but whatever it is, I hope we get something more than entertainment out of it. Being accused falsely is something that could happen to any one of us...

 

[Buckychudd]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

 

[Soulfly3]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

 

[Buckychudd]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

 

[Soulfly3]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

Yes.

But you called me a ####tard, so I didn't fix it

Boo ya!!!

 

[PatsWillWin]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

Yes.

But you called me a ####tard, so I didn't fix it

Boo ya!!!

SWEET BURN!

 

[Buckychudd]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

Yes.

But you called me a ####tard, so I didn't fix it

Boo ya!!!

Lol ok maybe I deserved that, but you really can't blame me after the "motive is inverse beauty" comment. This thread was ####ed before I got here.

 

[shuke]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

 

[SIDA!]

It does seem a bit convenient. I also don't understand why everyone thinks that the police, the prosecution, and even the defense (since they didn't follow up on this letter) are out to get this one guy.

If the police/prosecution think Adnan did it, they should put on the evidence they have with their REAL theory for how it happened.

So, if they REALLY thought that Adnan killed her immediately after school, then this woman's testimony is a really big deal.

What makes more sense:

Asia McClain's letter was ignored due to legal "malpractice" or Asia's letter was ignored because they knew it wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in a trial?

I forget exactly how Koenig describes it...but Adnan was completely unmoved by the letter and so was his attorney (for reasons we do not explicitly know). If I am sitting in a jail cell, I am screaming and shouting for joy when I get a letter from someone professing to have an alibi for me. But, that didn't happen here.

And I suspect the reason is something along the lines of Asia's statements lacking credibility and being easily refutable. Is Adnan going to say that in an interview with Koenig. No. So he gives some sort of unconvincing story about him being young, naive, or however it was described.

It reminds me of the section of the interview/series when he was queried about not calling or texting Hae even one time after she went missing. Not one time to check in and tell her that he was thinking of her, concerned, or letting her know he was there to talk to her if she needed someone. The dude who dropped everything to pick her up when she was having car problems. Just crickets.

Koenig basically expresses skepticism about his lack of checking in with Hae and Adnan was like: "Is that a question?"

You need to get a better understanding of this case. Cristina Gutierrez was disbarred for mishandling clients funds and not providing services for which she was paid. It's entirely feasible that she simply dropped the ball due to failing health and declining ability to keep up with her case load.

I think I have a better understanding than most and I am aware of her mishandling of funds, etc. I suppose it is possible she dropped the ball due to failing health, although I have not seen any evidence to substantiate the notion that she was somehow derelict in her efforts to defend Adnan.

For Adnan to be innocent you need so many unfortunate circumstances to coalesce over the weeks and that specific day that it is basically laughable.

And yet, for Jay to be guilty as you professed on the last page, you need a nearly equally improbable sequence of events to come together.

The notion that Jay "framed" Adnan is pretty far-fetched.

So, we have Jay pining away with some unknown motive festering inside him plotting and scheming to kill an innocent person simply so he could frame Adnan? That is what we are going with now? That instead of, oh I don't know....just actually killing Adnan on his own...he would instead kill Hae and frame Adnan. Where is the logic in this!

Meanwhile...Jay is just sitting there devising a master diabolical scheme whereby he must somehow use his telepathic powers to convince Adnan to loan him his car and cell phone. Then he must somehow follow Hae after school or locate her in some fashion after school, get her to pull over and then kill her in broad daylight in a presumably public place and then drive two cars simultaneously? Please let me know where I am getting the theory wrong.

Then...after killing Hae...Jay goes and hangs out with the dude he loathes so much that he is willing to kill the dude's ex-gf, but okay with puffing some joints. Maybe Jay is a psychopath and secretly bellowed a sinister laugh as he puffed jays...

Then...to make things even more amazing. Jay managed to somehow bank on the notion that one of the popular kids at school, who is an athlete, has practice that day would manage to go an entire span of several hours without one credible witness to corroborate or substantiate an alibi. That is ingenius. I mean...seriously think about that.

You are planning to kill another human being so that you can frame Adnan for murder and as you are concocting this fantastical plan...you assume/guarantee/know that nobody in the world would be able to come to his defense...not even the "victim" himself.

Are you listening to yourself when you convince yourself that this happened the way you are trying to say it happened?

 

[Short Corner]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

Yes.

But you called me a ####tard, so I didn't fix it

Boo ya!!!

 

[IvanKaramazov]

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

What you're basically saying is "What was Syed's motive, other than the blindingly obvious one that I don't have an answer for?"

 

[krista4]

So I finished off the podcast, read some of what they posted on the Serial website, and read Jay's interview.

End of the day, I think Adnan did it. Just too many coincidences working against him. If it's beyond a reasonable doubt I'm a little less certain. Things that push me in this direction:

• The Nisha call, I get their theory that it was a butt dial, I just don't believe it
• Happening to lend Jay his car that day
• Trying to arrange a ride from Hae
• The calls from Leakin Park
• I don't think Asia is a reliable alibi, I think she saw him in the library but is confusing the days
• I find the anonymous tip interesting....it seems Adnan may have confessed to someone in the Muslim community

The Jay interview was very interesting. He comes off as a lot more sympathetic and it explains some of the incosistencies in his story.

At the end of the day it's either Adnan or Jay. If the theory is Jay, what is the motive and who helps him? Plus, how in the world does he meet up with Hae?

The bolded part collectively easily gets me over the "reasonable doubt" standard. I can't come up with any reasonable alternative hypothesis that explains this stuff other than "Adnan did it." When you're reduced to arguing that some serial killer may be the real murder, which is where the Innocence Project apparently is, that's just not plausible.

As I understand it (not sure this is completely accurate) the Innocence Project is just using the serial killer to get the DNA tested. They don't legitimately think or intend to argue that he did it.

Good point. In fairness, it seems to me that you really shouldn't need an argument to get DNA tested -- that should be something that's granted automatically. Maybe there's a good reason for doing it the way they do it. but it seems to encourage a degree of disingenuousness.

Regarding DNA testing, it's generally a question of resources. State labs wouldn't have the funding or personnel available to test DNA in each instance where someone might speciously wish to get it tested. And people will try to get DNA testing done even if they are guilty, for a variety of reasons.

I'm not saying I agree with this, and in the most extreme circumstances, such as murder cases, it seems that the value of the testing greatly outweighs the costs involved. In the case I worked on that I mentioned upthread, a central point we were arguing was that DNA testing had not been available on the type of matter (sweat) we had when the crime occurred, but in the 13 years since it had evolved to where testing could be done. Despite the fact that this was a death-penalty case, we tried again and again and were turned down numerous times. We even got the country's lead DNA expert who offered to donate his services, to take away from the cost issue, and still got turned down. It was amazing to me that in a case involving potential execution, there was no legal right to DNA testing. In the intervening years many (though not all) states have passed laws requiring testing in capital cases.

 

[krista4]

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

What you're basically saying is "What was Syed's motive, other than the blindingly obvious one that I don't have an answer for?"

Excellent posting. I don't understand the inconsistent argument that (1) motive doesn't matter, and yet (2) Adnan had no motive, but more so I don't understand the second part of this equation. Spurned men kill their former wives, girlfriends, lovers every day (and many spurned women do as well).

We don't think that's his motive, why? Because he was dating again? That certainly doesn't matter in the least. Plenty of spurned men who kill have dated or even married in the interim. Because he was young? Right in my backyard a couple of months ago a high-school freshman--popular (had just been named homecoming prince), athletic, good-looking, etc, must like Adnan--shot and killed five students (including himself) and wounded a sixth because his girlfriend and he had broken up.

If you're going to say motive doesn't matter as a reason that Jay could be the killer, then stick with that notion, and don't throw in the "and Adnan didn't have a motive" as well. That makes the argument seem a lot weaker.

 

[Ted Mullins]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.

This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

 

[MattFancy]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.

This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

View from LL2 has way better info than anything you'll get on Reddit.

It's even more interesting to see what a lawyer thinks of the case.

 

[SIDA!]

So I finished off the podcast, read some of what they posted on the Serial website, and read Jay's interview.

End of the day, I think Adnan did it. Just too many coincidences working against him. If it's beyond a reasonable doubt I'm a little less certain. Things that push me in this direction:

• The Nisha call, I get their theory that it was a butt dial, I just don't believe it
• Happening to lend Jay his car that day
• Trying to arrange a ride from Hae
• The calls from Leakin Park
• I don't think Asia is a reliable alibi, I think she saw him in the library but is confusing the days
• I find the anonymous tip interesting....it seems Adnan may have confessed to someone in the Muslim community

The Jay interview was very interesting. He comes off as a lot more sympathetic and it explains some of the incosistencies in his story.

At the end of the day it's either Adnan or Jay. If the theory is Jay, what is the motive and who helps him? Plus, how in the world does he meet up with Hae?

The bolded part collectively easily gets me over the "reasonable doubt" standard. I can't come up with any reasonable alternative hypothesis that explains this stuff other than "Adnan did it." When you're reduced to arguing that some serial killer may be the real murder, which is where the Innocence Project apparently is, that's just not plausible.

As I understand it (not sure this is completely accurate) the Innocence Project is just using the serial killer to get the DNA tested. They don't legitimately think or intend to argue that he did it.

Good point. In fairness, it seems to me that you really shouldn't need an argument to get DNA tested -- that should be something that's granted automatically. Maybe there's a good reason for doing it the way they do it. but it seems to encourage a degree of disingenuousness.

Regarding DNA testing, it's generally a question of resources. State labs wouldn't have the funding or personnel available to test DNA in each instance where someone might speciously wish to get it tested. And people will try to get DNA testing done even if they are guilty, for a variety of reasons.

I'm not saying I agree with this, and in the most extreme circumstances, such as murder cases, it seems that the value of the testing greatly outweighs the costs involved. In the case I worked on that I mentioned upthread, a central point we were arguing was that DNA testing had not been available on the type of matter (sweat) we had when the crime occurred, but in the 13 years since it had evolved to where testing could be done. Despite the fact that this was a death-penalty case, we tried again and again and were turned down numerous times. We even got the country's lead DNA expert who offered to donate his services, to take away from the cost issue, and still got turned down. It was amazing to me that in a case involving potential execution, there was no legal right to DNA testing. In the intervening years many (though not all) states have passed laws requiring testing in capital cases.

Pretty amazing situation, Krista. If someone is offering their services for free and a person's life is on the line, what public interest is served by refusing to allow it to be tested? Especially, since the reverse has been true in thousands of cases to prosecute a crime!

Here is my thing with the DNA evidence and I alluded to this before. If you are in the Adnan is innocent crowd what does it matter what the DNA results are? The presence of DNA doesn't mean that person killed her. If Adnan's DNA is present...well...that doesn't mean he did anything untoward. Maybe they were still intimate behind the new guy's back! Or, say it is some random dude's DNA that we cannot match with anyone. Who is to say that she wasn't seeing some other person for platonic or romantic reasons that nobody else was aware of?

I guess my point is, if you are willing to suspend reality and ignore the litany of coincidences and facts that point to Adnan and suggest that there is reasonable doubt...how can you then ignore the same mental processes and suggest that the presence of DNA means anything to anything with regards to this case?

 

[Neofight]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

View from LL2 has way better info than anything you'll get on Reddit.

It's even more interesting to see what a lawyer thinks of the case.

Susan Simpson also contributes frequently on the subreddit, as does Colin Miller (Evidenceprof- he has a great blog on the legal issues as well). Simpson does seem to think Adnan is innocent and that Jay has plenty more to tell.I wonder what her motive is.

 

[SIDA!]

Sida, keep in mind that Hae's then-boyfriend also said he didn't try to contact her the night she went missing. Just a point of reference.

Fair point. I don't recall the exact way it was worded or phrased by Koenig during the podcast. I would need to relisten to that part. My understanding is that she didn't interview him for the Serial Podcast and that she was basing this off reports or interview statements, correct?

However, he was only dating her for like 13 days or whatever it was. My feelings on the matter and I may be wrong, is that Hae was into this guy a little more than he was in that high school crush sort of way and in that way that high school girls loathe their immature high school boyfriends and cling on to the mature/more sophisticated older guy.

But again, fair point.

 

[SIDA!]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

View from LL2 has way better info than anything you'll get on Reddit.

It's even more interesting to see what a lawyer thinks of the case.

Susan Simpson also contributes frequently on the subreddit, as does Colin Miller (Evidenceprof- he has a great blog on the legal issues as well). Simpson does seem to think Adnan is innocent and that Jay has plenty more to tell.I wonder what her motive is.

I think everyone following this story regardless of whether you think Adnan is guilty or not, believe there is more to the story of Jay and that he has more to tell or explain.

 

[Neofight]

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

What you're basically saying is "What was Syed's motive, other than the blindingly obvious one that I don't have an answer for?"

Excellent posting. I don't understand the inconsistent argument that (1) motive doesn't matter, and yet (2) Adnan had no motive, but more so I don't understand the second part of this equation. Spurned men kill their former wives, girlfriends, lovers every day (and many spurned women do as well).

We don't think that's his motive, why? Because he was dating again? That certainly doesn't matter in the least. Plenty of spurned men who kill have dated or even married in the interim. Because he was young? Right in my backyard a couple of months ago a high-school freshman--popular (had just been named homecoming prince), athletic, good-looking, etc, must like Adnan--shot and killed five students (including himself) and wounded a sixth because his girlfriend and he had broken up.

If you're going to say motive doesn't matter as a reason that Jay could be the killer, then stick with that notion, and don't throw in the "and Adnan didn't have a motive" as well. That makes the argument seem a lot weaker.

You're (perhaps emotionally) misrepresenting my argument. In general, motive is a fine tool to whittle down a field of possible suspects. Motive can also be a fine tool to spin a theory of why someone would do x, y and z. If you believe you really know what's in a persons heart or mind, that is fine. I'd prefer to use something a bit more tangible; like evidence. The facts of this case are that the direct evidence against Syed is non-existent, the circumstantial evidence is thin, and Jays testimony and transcripts from interrogation is all over the place. That is, the tangible doesn't support a theory the killer was Adnan Syed (and perhaps points more directly at the state's star witness). The intangible (motive) is also lacking.In the case you mention, which occurred in your "backyard", what was the background on this kid? Was there a history of violent behavior? Did the police determine a pattern? Was he caught red-handed? Was there any direct evidence that he was in fact the killer? Of course, those last few questions are obviously, tragically answered for us. Which makes that case completely at odds with the murder of Hae Min Lee: A case where there was possible exculpatory evidence-such as a PERK kit, hair, fibers, and other possible DNA-that was left untested.

In the face of all that, the time worn motive of "lover scorned" means very little. And that's my point. Jay could have plenty of motives; I just don't want to play the spin game because I'm not really certain about those motives (plenty of rumors and hunches, just like you or anybody else would have). Likewise, I'm not certain on Syed killing a good friend because she broke his heart. Sounds manufactured and isn't supported by anything material.

We could also look at the actual numbers that the FBI reports about these types of deaths...

 

[Neofight]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

View from LL2 has way better info than anything you'll get on Reddit.

It's even more interesting to see what a lawyer thinks of the case.

Susan Simpson also contributes frequently on the subreddit, as does Colin Miller (Evidenceprof- he has a great blog on the legal issues as well). Simpson does seem to think Adnan is innocent and that Jay has plenty more to tell.I wonder what her motive is.

I think everyone following this story regardless of whether you think Adnan is guilty or not, believe there is more to the story of Jay and that he has more to tell or explain.

Well, yes. But I think you aren't reading between the lines on what she is illustrating.

 

[shuke]

Spent countless hours on reddit, and it ruined this whole podcast for me.

as much as I enjoyed it, the sheer amount of info they chose to leave out is staggering. info that was VERY pertinent to things they discussed.

info that really shouldve been brought up.

now, it was just something I enjoyed but that lost it's brilliance... but I get it... It was meant to be entertainment.

Could you provide a few examples? I'm too dumb to navigate reddit.

The subreddit has so many posts and they are 95% pro-Adnan, presumably because many of the people who are convinced he is guilty and needs to be in jail have moved on with their lives.This is the blog of a lawyer who posts on reddit and seems to have researched the case a lot - http://viewfromll2.com/ - much better info and more concise than trying to read the threads on reddit IMO.

She seems to think he's innocent and I believe I saw she has insinuated there may be a 3rd party involved beyond Jay and Adnan.

View from LL2 has way better info than anything you'll get on Reddit.

It's even more interesting to see what a lawyer thinks of the case.

Susan Simpson also contributes frequently on the subreddit, as does Colin Miller (Evidenceprof- he has a great blog on the legal issues as well). Simpson does seem to think Adnan is innocent and that Jay has plenty more to tell.I wonder what her motive is.

I think everyone following this story regardless of whether you think Adnan is guilty or not, believe there is more to the story of Jay and that he has more to tell or explain.

Did you read the Intercept interview? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[SIDA!]

Sorry, Shuke.

Didn't really follow the point you are making with your last comment. Please unpack it a bit.

 

[Neofight]

It does seem a bit convenient. I also don't understand why everyone thinks that the police, the prosecution, and even the defense (since they didn't follow up on this letter) are out to get this one guy.

If the police/prosecution think Adnan did it, they should put on the evidence they have with their REAL theory for how it happened.

So, if they REALLY thought that Adnan killed her immediately after school, then this woman's testimony is a really big deal.

What makes more sense:Asia McClain's letter was ignored due to legal "malpractice" or Asia's letter was ignored because they knew it wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in a trial?

I forget exactly how Koenig describes it...but Adnan was completely unmoved by the letter and so was his attorney (for reasons we do not explicitly know). If I am sitting in a jail cell, I am screaming and shouting for joy when I get a letter from someone professing to have an alibi for me. But, that didn't happen here.

And I suspect the reason is something along the lines of Asia's statements lacking credibility and being easily refutable. Is Adnan going to say that in an interview with Koenig. No. So he gives some sort of unconvincing story about him being young, naive, or however it was described.

It reminds me of the section of the interview/series when he was queried about not calling or texting Hae even one time after she went missing. Not one time to check in and tell her that he was thinking of her, concerned, or letting her know he was there to talk to her if she needed someone. The dude who dropped everything to pick her up when she was having car problems. Just crickets.

Koenig basically expresses skepticism about his lack of checking in with Hae and Adnan was like: "Is that a question?"

You need to get a better understanding of this case. Cristina Gutierrez was disbarred for mishandling clients funds and not providing services for which she was paid. It's entirely feasible that she simply dropped the ball due to failing health and declining ability to keep up with her case load.

I think I have a better understanding than most and I am aware of her mishandling of funds, etc. I suppose it is possible she dropped the ball due to failing health, although I have not seen any evidence to substantiate the notion that she was somehow derelict in her efforts to defend Adnan. For Adnan to be innocent you need so many unfortunate circumstances to coalesce over the weeks and that specific day that it is basically laughable.

And yet, for Jay to be guilty as you professed on the last page, you need a nearly equally improbable sequence of events to come together.

The notion that Jay "framed" Adnan is pretty far-fetched.

So, we have Jay pining away with some unknown motive festering inside him plotting and scheming to kill an innocent person simply so he could frame Adnan? That is what we are going with now? That instead of, oh I don't know....just actually killing Adnan on his own...he would instead kill Hae and frame Adnan. Where is the logic in this!

Meanwhile...Jay is just sitting there devising a master diabolical scheme whereby he must somehow use his telepathic powers to convince Adnan to loan him his car and cell phone. Then he must somehow follow Hae after school or locate her in some fashion after school, get her to pull over and then kill her in broad daylight in a presumably public place and then drive two cars simultaneously? Please let me know where I am getting the theory wrong.

Then...after killing Hae...Jay goes and hangs out with the dude he loathes so much that he is willing to kill the dude's ex-gf, but okay with puffing some joints. Maybe Jay is a psychopath and secretly bellowed a sinister laugh as he puffed jays...

Then...to make things even more amazing. Jay managed to somehow bank on the notion that one of the popular kids at school, who is an athlete, has practice that day would manage to go an entire span of several hours without one credible witness to corroborate or substantiate an alibi. That is ingenius. I mean...seriously think about that.

You are planning to kill another human being so that you can frame Adnan for murder and as you are concocting this fantastical plan...you assume/guarantee/know that nobody in the world would be able to come to his defense...not even the "victim" himself.

Are you listening to yourself when you convince yourself that this happened the way you are trying to say it happened?

Woof, somehow missed this post. This is a mess. You're not even getting basic facts from the case correct. I won't even go into some of the fallacies of what you claim I've said. Tighten up the logic.

 

[SIDA!]

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

What you're basically saying is "What was Syed's motive, other than the blindingly obvious one that I don't have an answer for?"

Excellent posting. I don't understand the inconsistent argument that (1) motive doesn't matter, and yet (2) Adnan had no motive, but more so I don't understand the second part of this equation. Spurned men kill their former wives, girlfriends, lovers every day (and many spurned women do as well).

We don't think that's his motive, why? Because he was dating again? That certainly doesn't matter in the least. Plenty of spurned men who kill have dated or even married in the interim. Because he was young? Right in my backyard a couple of months ago a high-school freshman--popular (had just been named homecoming prince), athletic, good-looking, etc, must like Adnan--shot and killed five students (including himself) and wounded a sixth because his girlfriend and he had broken up.

If you're going to say motive doesn't matter as a reason that Jay could be the killer, then stick with that notion, and don't throw in the "and Adnan didn't have a motive" as well. That makes the argument seem a lot weaker.

You're (perhaps emotionally) misrepresenting my argument. In general, motive is a fine tool to whittle down a field of possible suspects. Motive can also be a fine tool to spin a theory of why someone would do x, y and z. If you believe you really know what's in a persons heart or mind, that is fine. I'd prefer to use something a bit more tangible; like evidence. The facts of this case are that the direct evidence against Syed is non-existent, the circumstantial evidence is thin, and Jays testimony and transcripts from interrogation is all over the place. That is, the tangible doesn't support a theory the killer was Adnan Syed (and perhaps points more directly at the state's star witness). The intangible (motive) is also lacking.In the case you mention, which occurred in your "backyard", what was the background on this kid? Was there a history of violent behavior? Did the police determine a pattern? Was he caught red-handed? Was there any direct evidence that he was in fact the killer? Of course, those last few questions are obviously, tragically answered for us. Which makes that case completely at odds with the murder of Hae Min Lee: A case where there was possible exculpatory evidence-such as a PERK kit, hair, fibers, and other possible DNA-that was left untested.

In the face of all that, the time worn motive of "lover scorned" means very little. And that's my point. Jay could have plenty of motives; I just don't want to play the spin game because I'm not really certain about those motives (plenty of rumors and hunches, just like you or anybody else would have). Likewise, I'm not certain on Syed killing a good friend because she broke his heart. Sounds manufactured and isn't supported by anything material.

We could also look at the actual numbers that the FBI reports about these types of deaths...

See Bolded Above - But your assertion that you think Jay did it isn't manufactured? And it is supported by what exactly?

The mental gymnastics needed to convince yourself that the numerous "coincidences" and convenient recollections or lack thereof are not enough to convict Adnan is almost comical. The scary part is that it takes even greater leaps of fantasy to suggest that Jay framed Adnan.

You are honestly better, and I mean this literally, trying to convince me that aliens abducted Hae if you are going to stick to the Jay did it and framed Adnan argument.

Moreover, let us assume for a moment that Adnan's DNA was found on Hae's body. Would that prove to you that Adnan killed her? If so, how?

 

[Neofight]

What was Syed's motive? That's not rhetorical (just don't say he was besmirched, for the love of Allah).

What you're basically saying is "What was Syed's motive, other than the blindingly obvious one that I don't have an answer for?"

Excellent posting. I don't understand the inconsistent argument that (1) motive doesn't matter, and yet (2) Adnan had no motive, but more so I don't understand the second part of this equation. Spurned men kill their former wives, girlfriends, lovers every day (and many spurned women do as well).

We don't think that's his motive, why? Because he was dating again? That certainly doesn't matter in the least. Plenty of spurned men who kill have dated or even married in the interim. Because he was young? Right in my backyard a couple of months ago a high-school freshman--popular (had just been named homecoming prince), athletic, good-looking, etc, must like Adnan--shot and killed five students (including himself) and wounded a sixth because his girlfriend and he had broken up.

If you're going to say motive doesn't matter as a reason that Jay could be the killer, then stick with that notion, and don't throw in the "and Adnan didn't have a motive" as well. That makes the argument seem a lot weaker.

You're (perhaps emotionally) misrepresenting my argument. In general, motive is a fine tool to whittle down a field of possible suspects. Motive can also be a fine tool to spin a theory of why someone would do x, y and z. If you believe you really know what's in a persons heart or mind, that is fine. I'd prefer to use something a bit more tangible; like evidence. The facts of this case are that the direct evidence against Syed is non-existent, the circumstantial evidence is thin, and Jays testimony and transcripts from interrogation is all over the place. That is, the tangible doesn't support a theory the killer was Adnan Syed (and perhaps points more directly at the state's star witness). The intangible (motive) is also lacking.In the case you mention, which occurred in your "backyard", what was the background on this kid? Was there a history of violent behavior? Did the police determine a pattern? Was he caught red-handed? Was there any direct evidence that he was in fact the killer? Of course, those last few questions are obviously, tragically answered for us. Which makes that case completely at odds with the murder of Hae Min Lee: A case where there was possible exculpatory evidence-such as a PERK kit, hair, fibers, and other possible DNA-that was left untested.

In the face of all that, the time worn motive of "lover scorned" means very little. And that's my point. Jay could have plenty of motives; I just don't want to play the spin game because I'm not really certain about those motives (plenty of rumors and hunches, just like you or anybody else would have). Likewise, I'm not certain on Syed killing a good friend because she broke his heart. Sounds manufactured and isn't supported by anything material.

We could also look at the actual numbers that the FBI reports about these types of deaths...

See Bolded Above - But your assertion that you think Jay did it isn't manufactured? And it is supported by what exactly?The mental gymnastics needed to convince yourself that the numerous "coincidences" and convenient recollections or lack thereof are not enough to convict Adnan is almost comical. The scary part is that it takes even greater leaps of fantasy to suggest that Jay framed Adnan.

You are honestly better, and I mean this literally, trying to convince me that aliens abducted Hae if you are going to stick to the Jay did it and framed Adnan argument.

Moreover, let us assume for a moment that Adnan's DNA was found on Hae's body. Would that prove to you that Adnan killed her? If so, how?

You're a bit hyperbolic. Do you have some attachment to this personally?Really, try to stick to what I've said.

 

[SIDA!]

It does seem a bit convenient. I also don't understand why everyone thinks that the police, the prosecution, and even the defense (since they didn't follow up on this letter) are out to get this one guy.

If the police/prosecution think Adnan did it, they should put on the evidence they have with their REAL theory for how it happened.

So, if they REALLY thought that Adnan killed her immediately after school, then this woman's testimony is a really big deal.

What makes more sense:Asia McClain's letter was ignored due to legal "malpractice" or Asia's letter was ignored because they knew it wouldn't hold up under scrutiny in a trial?

I forget exactly how Koenig describes it...but Adnan was completely unmoved by the letter and so was his attorney (for reasons we do not explicitly know). If I am sitting in a jail cell, I am screaming and shouting for joy when I get a letter from someone professing to have an alibi for me. But, that didn't happen here.

And I suspect the reason is something along the lines of Asia's statements lacking credibility and being easily refutable. Is Adnan going to say that in an interview with Koenig. No. So he gives some sort of unconvincing story about him being young, naive, or however it was described.

It reminds me of the section of the interview/series when he was queried about not calling or texting Hae even one time after she went missing. Not one time to check in and tell her that he was thinking of her, concerned, or letting her know he was there to talk to her if she needed someone. The dude who dropped everything to pick her up when she was having car problems. Just crickets.

Koenig basically expresses skepticism about his lack of checking in with Hae and Adnan was like: "Is that a question?"

You need to get a better understanding of this case. Cristina Gutierrez was disbarred for mishandling clients funds and not providing services for which she was paid. It's entirely feasible that she simply dropped the ball due to failing health and declining ability to keep up with her case load.

I think I have a better understanding than most and I am aware of her mishandling of funds, etc. I suppose it is possible she dropped the ball due to failing health, although I have not seen any evidence to substantiate the notion that she was somehow derelict in her efforts to defend Adnan. For Adnan to be innocent you need so many unfortunate circumstances to coalesce over the weeks and that specific day that it is basically laughable.

And yet, for Jay to be guilty as you professed on the last page, you need a nearly equally improbable sequence of events to come together.

The notion that Jay "framed" Adnan is pretty far-fetched.

So, we have Jay pining away with some unknown motive festering inside him plotting and scheming to kill an innocent person simply so he could frame Adnan? That is what we are going with now? That instead of, oh I don't know....just actually killing Adnan on his own...he would instead kill Hae and frame Adnan. Where is the logic in this!

Meanwhile...Jay is just sitting there devising a master diabolical scheme whereby he must somehow use his telepathic powers to convince Adnan to loan him his car and cell phone. Then he must somehow follow Hae after school or locate her in some fashion after school, get her to pull over and then kill her in broad daylight in a presumably public place and then drive two cars simultaneously? Please let me know where I am getting the theory wrong.

Then...after killing Hae...Jay goes and hangs out with the dude he loathes so much that he is willing to kill the dude's ex-gf, but okay with puffing some joints. Maybe Jay is a psychopath and secretly bellowed a sinister laugh as he puffed jays...

Then...to make things even more amazing. Jay managed to somehow bank on the notion that one of the popular kids at school, who is an athlete, has practice that day would manage to go an entire span of several hours without one credible witness to corroborate or substantiate an alibi. That is ingenius. I mean...seriously think about that.

You are planning to kill another human being so that you can frame Adnan for murder and as you are concocting this fantastical plan...you assume/guarantee/know that nobody in the world would be able to come to his defense...not even the "victim" himself.

Are you listening to yourself when you convince yourself that this happened the way you are trying to say it happened?

Woof, somehow missed this post. This is a mess. You're not even getting basic facts from the case correct. I won't even go into some of the fallacies of what you claim I've said.Tighten up the logic.

LOL...why would you want to get into specifics of what you said or I said...

Let me help you out. You wrote:

Long story short: I basically think Jay framed Adnan for something that he has intimate knowledge of. The possible reasons he would have knowledge of the murder are quite a few, and I've alluded to them previously... but as I have learned more I am slowly coming to the realization that perhaps he actually did the deed himself. Jay is quite possibly not just lying, but projecting.

Please tell the class where I misrepresented what you said.

 

[SIDA!]

Neofight

It is next to impossible to stick to what you said...when you can't even remember what you wrote. LOL at hyperbolic. Okay.

I am not sure how my pointing to weaknesses on both sides of the case, actually posting things that would be sympathetic to Adnan's case (months ago and even yesterday) would suggest I am personally invested in this or whatever spin you are not trying to put on the conversation to avoid providing solid answers to questions asked.

Every single one of your posts in this thread have been sympathetic/in defense of Adnan as far as I can recall. You are the one exhibiting tunnel vision suggestive of an individual who is personally invested. Dare I say...you are projecting...

 

[Neofight]

Neofight

It is next to impossible to stick to what you said...when you can't even remember what you wrote. LOL at hyperbolic. Okay.

I am not sure how my pointing to weaknesses on both sides of the case, actually posting things that would be sympathetic to Adnan's case (months ago and even yesterday) would suggest I am personally invested in this or whatever spin you are not trying to put on the conversation to avoid providing solid answers to questions asked.

Every single one of your posts in this thread have been sympathetic/in defense of Adnan as far as I can recall. You are the one exhibiting tunnel vision suggestive of an individual who is personally invested. Dare I say...you are projecting...

You sound very much like the people who rail against Sarah Koenig and Serial for being pro-Adnan, when they (like me) have expressed doubts about his innocence.You're not really looking for answers.

 

[SIDA!]

Neofight

It is next to impossible to stick to what you said...when you can't even remember what you wrote. LOL at hyperbolic. Okay.

I am not sure how my pointing to weaknesses on both sides of the case, actually posting things that would be sympathetic to Adnan's case (months ago and even yesterday) would suggest I am personally invested in this or whatever spin you are not trying to put on the conversation to avoid providing solid answers to questions asked.

Every single one of your posts in this thread have been sympathetic/in defense of Adnan as far as I can recall. You are the one exhibiting tunnel vision suggestive of an individual who is personally invested. Dare I say...you are projecting...

You sound very much like the people who rail against Sarah Koenig and Serial for being pro-Adnan, when they (like me) have expressed doubts about his innocence.You're not really looking for answers.

Wow. Look another post where you dodge questions and make more random statements about me and my position.

I don't think I have railed against Koenig in this thread nor even hinted anything along the lines. Let me help you again, since you seem incapable. I wrote in my very first comment in this thread:

Favorable Points for Adnan

Below are the two main points that favor Adnan in my estimation.

I don't buy the motive or the timeline. I don't think it is possible to get out of that school, kill Hae somewhere along the way between there and Best Buy, put her in the trunk and make a call, all within 21 minutes. Just seems laughably absurd.

So, the primary problem I have with this case is the lack of a strong motive that I find credible. There is nothing presented in the case or by Sarah that suggests to me that there is a strong motive to kill. Second, the timeline doesn't make sense to me. Again, I don't recall any evidence or statements from forensics experts putting time of death in a 21 minute window. Just the testimony of Jay.

---

The Library Alibi

Admittedly, this is troubling. If the prosecution contends that the murder happened during a specific time window where he was supposedly seen by a witness in the library, then that destroys the case. This aspect of the case bothers me for a variety of reasons. Why wasn't she interviewed? However, I am not exactly convinced that her memory about that specific day in question is accurate despite her being so sure and recounting the first snow of the year, etc. She was remembering this some six weeks after this all went down. So, while I am extremely troubled by this...I am not convinced that her testimony is credible.

The Neisha Call

This call looks terrible for Adnan, right? Jay is supposedly in possession of Adnan's cell phone during the time the call is made to her, a person that Sarah says only Adnan knows. The presumption being that Jay would not call her and speak to her for more than 2 minutes. It is also stated in the public record that her phone did not have voicemail in rebuttal to any mistaken butt dial defense presented.

My only argument for Adnan and why this phone call isn't such a big deal is that I find it possible that there was a mistaken auto dial and it is possible that another person in Neisha's household picked up the phone and listened in on the conversation. I have been butt dialed before and done that. My understanding is that it was Neisha's landline..not a cell phone that was called that day by Adnan's cell phone.

Yeah. You are right. I have been in the tank the whole time.

These comments were written while the series was still unfolding and before the blog post about the weather report I linked to for Shuke earlier in this thread.

 

[Soulfly3]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

 

[QuizGuy66]

A lot of arguing here....

Have any of you guys above seen the records, documents, tape, etc that the sleuths over at reddit have uncovered?

a ton to sort thru, but TAA really cut back on the stuff that pinned Adnan as a pretty guilty man

Can you ####tards stop talking in code and innuendo?

tip: reddit is code for reddit.

Pretend I have a life and a day job and am not going to dig through 20k reddit posts and the associated links. Also pretend I have no idea what TAA stands for. Additionally , if it's not too much trouble, pretend that I think motive does actually matter.

TAA - this american life

How does that even make sense? Wouldn't it be TAL?

Is this some sort of ISIS, ISIL thing?

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

Has Adnan ever pointed his finger at Jay? I thought he has only pointed the finger at "I have no idea".

-QG

 

[GDogg]

Sida, keep in mind that Hae's then-boyfriend also said he didn't try to contact her the night she went missing. Just a point of reference.

Did Hae have a cellphone? If not (and I don't think she did as cellphones were still pretty rare back then), then why would Adnan or the other guy try to contact her, presumably at her house? If she's at her house, then she's no longer in distress or missing. And, I'm sure they'd know about it before they called.

 

[Buckychudd]

Sorry, Shuke.

Didn't really follow the point you are making with your last comment. Please unpack it a bit.

Not to speak for Shuke, but....

I think in the latest interview, Jay finally told the true story. He gave some inconsistent answers 15 years ago because he was a) afraid they would bust him for drug dealing, b) he was trying to keep his friends out of it to protect them, and c) he was trying to keep his grandmother and her house out of it to protect them.

It rang true to me, he seems to at least think he has less to lose now by telling the whole story.

 

[shuke]

Sorry, Shuke.

Didn't really follow the point you are making with your last comment. Please unpack it a bit.

Jay did this interview after Serial aired. He explained why his story was inconsistent at the time. He was really scared and didn't want to involve his grandmother and friends.

I'm not sure what evidence actually points to Adnan not doing this.

 

[Soulfly3]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

Has Adnan ever pointed his finger at Jay? I thought he has only pointed the finger at "I have no idea".-QG

I think both were originally meant to play the dummy card... " i dont know"

Except only adnan stuck w it while jay pointed the finger.

Adnan just seems the type of guy WAY too proud to be known as a liar, so he's sticking w his story despite it being the worst decision ever.

I kno that sounds pretty ludicrous, but that's what I think

 

[shuke]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

What leads you to believe this?

 

[Soulfly3]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

What leads you to believe this?

Based on the same info available to all of you.

Just where Im at w this case.

Totally convinced this was a co-op between the two that went sour.

 

[bigmarc27]

I can't help but laugh that in the end, I think Jay is sitting free and Adnan is prison, while they both did the murder.

Adnan is just too proud to go back on his story of innocence, so he's keeping up w the charade. And Jay is laughing his ### off that he gets to point the finger at a guy who wont point back due to pride.

I dont think it started this way... I think Jay tried to weasel his way out and put all the blame on adnan, until a lightbulb lit up in his head saying "this guy aint gonna budge on his story, no matter what, so keep rolling w it"

I think if Adnan pointed his finger back from day 1, theyre both in jail for life

Yes, I truly believe that.

Has Adnan ever pointed his finger at Jay? I thought he has only pointed the finger at "I have no idea".-QG

I think both were originally meant to play the dummy card... " i dont know"

Except only adnan stuck w it while jay pointed the finger.

Adnan just seems the type of guy WAY too proud to be known as a liar, so he's sticking w his story despite it being the worst decision ever.

I kno that sounds pretty ludicrous, but that's what I think

Everyone said they weren't really even friends - it was just a guy and his weed dealer. Why would they form some blood pact to kill her?

What possible evidence do you have for this other than it's where your imagination took you?