Shooting at Umpqua Comm College - 10 dead, 7 injured (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

The idea that we have safe havens where violence isn't supposed to intrude is central to our society. Schools, churches, libraries, legislatures, etc. It shakes our foundational beliefs about what is and isn't safe.

 

[jonessed]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I wouldn't meet with Katheyn Steinle's family either. I'm sorry for their loss, but they have allowed it to be used to spread the worst kind of bigotry and prejudice. They don't deserve recognition IMO.

nice...what an #######

This attitude seriously needs to be called out and derided. It's disgusting.

Its been called out and derided plenty since I wrote it. But I stand by it nonetheless. What happened to that poor girl was tragic. What the parents must be going through as a result is unfathomable. But they have chosen to go along with the use of their daughter's fate for political purposes, and not just any political purposes, but among the most divisive and hateful political propaganda we have witnessed in this country in several decades. That opens them up to severe criticism, which IMO is fully justified in this instance.

Can't the same be said for mass shootings and the call for for gun control.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go, and health care funding to improve their quality of life and enable them to work and raise their children.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Because there are generally two very different schools of thought on dealing with gun violence - targeted specific legislation to deal with individual types of gun violence and try to leave our culture regarding guns almost entirely intact, and large scale reform to cause large scale changes and try to deal with all unacceptable gun violence. A bunch of non-interconnected incidents regarding gang violence makes some people think we can do the former by targeting gang behavior instead of guns and gun culture

 

[timschochet]

We don't pay as much attention to gang shooting in the inner city because we're numb to them, because we expect it. We don't expect school shootings so they come as a shock. That's not a bad thing. I don't want to to reach the day when school shootings aren't reported because they're so frequent.

 

[Henry Ford]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

 

[jonessed]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go, and health care funding to improve their quality of life and enable them to work and raise their children.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

 

[jonessed]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Because there are generally two very different schools of thought on dealing with gun violence - targeted specific legislation to deal with individual types of gun violence and try to leave our culture regarding guns almost entirely intact, and large scale reform to cause large scale changes and try to deal with all unacceptable gun violence. A bunch of non-interconnected incidents regarding gang violence makes some people think we can do the former by targeting gang behavior instead of guns and gun culture

I see. I think it's all largely inter-connected, but I can see where segmentation for solution-seeking makes sense.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

 

[TobiasFunke]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

Tell me about it

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

 

[Zegras11]

We don't pay as much attention to gang shooting in the inner city because we're numb to them, because we expect it. We don't expect school shootings so they come as a shock. That's not a bad thing. I don't want to to reach the day when school shootings aren't reported because they're so frequent.

So why are you numb to them? I'm not.

 

[pantagrapher]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Shooting and killing innocent schoolchildren is horrific. It's tragic. Gang members shooting and killing each other is different. They are involved in a dangerous game, and they know it, and they accept the danger. I hope this doesn't require further explanation.

 

[pantagrapher]

I mean, if you need someone to explain to you why school shootings like Umpqua make the national news and gang shootings in Englewood don't, you're being dense.

 

[matttyl]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

I was questioning the statement that "[n]o amount of legislation is going to prevent criminals from committing crime." Because, its a pretty silly thing to say.

Sorry. I can slow things down next time.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

as an aside, this is pretty silly too (to the extent it suggests only crazy people break the law).

 

[Ookie Pringle]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Shooting and killing innocent schoolchildren is horrific. It's tragic. Gang members shooting and killing each other is different. They are involved in a dangerous game, and they know it, and they accept the danger. I hope this doesn't require further explanation.

Innocent children are also being killed by gang violence.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

So we're the only developed nation that has crazy people? Learn something new every day I guess.

 

[matttyl]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

I was questioning the statement that "[n]o amount of legislation is going to prevent criminals from committing crime." Because, its a pretty silly thing to say.

Sorry. I can slow things down next time.

That's not what he said, and it wasn't the part of his statement that I was referring to. You should read things slower next time, and don't be a ####.

 

[jonessed]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Shooting and killing innocent schoolchildren is horrific. It's tragic. Gang members shooting and killing each other is different. They are involved in a dangerous game, and they know it, and they accept the danger. I hope this doesn't require further explanation.

Gang shootings often involve innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. If we are talking about solutions to gun violence I don't see why tackling school shootings (which happen rarely) would or should supercede inter-city violence (which happens often)

Obviously the school shootings offer more political and media opportunity, but if the goal is to reduce violence we should really start in the inner-cities.

 

[matttyl]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

as an aside, this is pretty silly too (to the extent it suggests only crazy people break the law).

It doesn't suggest that at all.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

I was questioning the statement that "[n]o amount of legislation is going to prevent criminals from committing crime." Because, its a pretty silly thing to say.

Sorry. I can slow things down next time.

That's not what he said, and it wasn't the part of his statement that I was referring to. You should read things slower next time, and don't be a ####.

that's not what he said?

 

[matttyl]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

I was questioning the statement that "[n]o amount of legislation is going to prevent criminals from committing crime." Because, its a pretty silly thing to say.

Sorry. I can slow things down next time.

That's not what he said, and it wasn't the part of his statement that I was referring to. You should read things slower next time, and don't be a ####.

that's not what he said?

No, he said "no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime". My response to your question about that statement was concerning the crazy people / crazy things (which this situation was). You then questioned my response with a snide comment about the criminals committing crimes part, which isn't what I was responding to.

 

[pantagrapher]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Shooting and killing innocent schoolchildren is horrific. It's tragic. Gang members shooting and killing each other is different. They are involved in a dangerous game, and they know it, and they accept the danger. I hope this doesn't require further explanation.

Innocent children are also being killed by gang violence.

Yes, and when they are, it tends to get a lot more attention from the media and the community.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Because people who aren't crazy, in general, follow those laws.

I was questioning the statement that "[n]o amount of legislation is going to prevent criminals from committing crime." Because, its a pretty silly thing to say.

Sorry. I can slow things down next time.

That's not what he said, and it wasn't the part of his statement that I was referring to. You should read things slower next time, and don't be a ####.

that's not what he said?

No, he said "no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime". My response to your question about that statement was concerning the crazy people / crazy things (which this situation was). You then questioned my response with a snide comment about the criminals committing crimes part, which isn't what I was responding to.

gotcha.

I should have bolded the part I was referencing but I figured it was self evident. Next time!

 

[matttyl]

No problem, but stuff like that is why I typically try and stay out of these kinds of threads. Just turn into a bunch of guys yelling at each other about stupid stuff.

 

[pantagrapher]

Why is it you guys only care when it involves a school?

Chicago reached 59 murders and 362 gunshot victims in September, marking it the deadliest month since 2002, according to analysis by The Chicago Tribune.

How many school shootings are gang related?

Why would it matter?

Shooting and killing innocent schoolchildren is horrific. It's tragic. Gang members shooting and killing each other is different. They are involved in a dangerous game, and they know it, and they accept the danger. I hope this doesn't require further explanation.

Gang shootings often involve innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. If we are talking about solutions to gun violence I don't see why tackling school shootings (which happen rarely) would or should supercede inter-city violence (which happens often)

Obviously the school shootings offer more political and media opportunity, but if the goal is to reduce violence we should really start in the inner-cities.

This isn't where the conversation started, but nobody is suggesting we make policy that helps address school shootings exclusively. The false choice here is "either you address school shootings or you address inner-city shootings." I was responding to this notion that there's some grand mystery behind why school shootings get more attention than other shootings.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

So we're the only developed nation that has crazy people? Learn something new every day I guess.

How does this apply? Are you implying no other developed nations have crazy people doing crazy things...... like mass killings?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

So we're the only developed nation that has crazy people? Learn something new every day I guess.

How does this apply? Are you implying no other developed nations have crazy people doing crazy things...... like mass killings?

I'm implying that we're the only developed nation that has bi-weekly school shootings but we're not the only nation with crazy people. Hth.

http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-prevent-says-only-nation-where-regularly-ha-51444

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

If this is true, why have any laws?

Laws are only followed to by those who choose to follow them. Fortunately the majority of the population make that choice.

 

[Henry Ford]

The conservative obsession with Chicago any time there's gun violence anywhere in America is so, so predictable and so, so stupid.

The truth is that those of us on the left DO care about Chicago and places like it. That's why we try to fund housing and education programs and other social programs for the urban poor. That's why we support changes to drug sentencing and law enforcement practices. That's why we push for affirmative action to increase education and job opportunities for minorities, and why we fund mass transit projects to allow people in cities to get where they need to go.

The better question is why does the right only care about Chicago when they need a small sample size example to counter gun control advocates? I don't see you doing a whole lot else to help the poor and the minorities in our cities the rest of the time. You couldn't care less about those people until you can use them to make points in a meaningless poo-flinging argument, and you know it.

Id guess roughly the same reason the GOP leadership only cares about mental health care when a massacre happens using guns. It's politically convenient.

That's another infuriating example of their hypocrisy. "It's not about gun control, it's about mental health!" Great, sounds like a problem we can try to solve together. Show me some of GOP legislative initiatives to increase access to mental health care or improve its quality.

When are people going to resign themselves to the fact that there is no amount of legislation that is going to prevent crazy people from doing crazy things or criminals from committing crime?

That's actually what I'm talking about here. If we're looking at a disconnected series of events with no real throughline to it, I guess you can't prevent it. But if there's a throughline somewhere, maybe we can.

I mean, you can't prevent drunk idiots from driving, or bad drivers from being bad drivers, or bad parents from failing to protect their kids in vehicles, or any number of other things. But we can require safety features in vehicles that have dramatically reduced vehicle deaths per mile driven over the last 40-50 years or so, along with targeted legislation aimed at reducing the individual types of negligence that lead to vehicle deaths. I don't see any reason that a comprehensive approach to firearms couldn't do the same thing.

 

[Otis]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

Yep could be as high as 40%

 

[Mr. Soup Nazi]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

Says the lawyer who spends half of his day trying to be cool for a bunch of internet nerds.

You guys are sooooooooo much smarter than everyone else.

 

[Henry Ford]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

Says the lawyer who spends half of his day trying to be cool for a bunch of internet nerds.

You guys are sooooooooo much smarter than everyone else.

You seem to be taking that comment personally. Why?

 

[Mr. Soup Nazi]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

Says the lawyer who spends half of his day trying to be cool for a bunch of internet nerds.

You guys are sooooooooo much smarter than everyone else.

You seem to be taking that comment personally. Why?

Nope, just laughing at the self-appointed smart guys who mock the rest of the country while they toil away with internet memes and inside jokes.

 

[Henry Ford]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

Says the lawyer who spends half of his day trying to be cool for a bunch of internet nerds.

You guys are sooooooooo much smarter than everyone else.

You seem to be taking that comment personally. Why?

Nope, just laughing at the self-appointed smart guys who mock the rest of the country while they toil away with internet memes and inside jokes.

I can assure you that Otis does a lot more with his days than mock people and post inside jokes and memes.

 

[RCon]

This still the thread where everyone on both sides intentionally mischaracterizes the beliefs and arguments of those on the other side?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

This still the thread where everyone on both sides intentionally mischaracterizes the beliefs and arguments of those on the other side?

Yes sir. You've come to the right place. Not like all those OTHER threads.

 

[Amused to Death]

The sad reality is that half the population of this country--maybe more--is incredibly dumb.

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."

Frank Zappa

 

[matttyl]

I mean, you can't prevent drunk idiots from driving, or bad drivers from being bad drivers, or bad parents from failing to protect their kids in vehicles, or any number of other things. But we can require safety features in vehicles that have dramatically reduced vehicle deaths per mile driven over the last 40-50 years or so, along with targeted legislation aimed at reducing the individual types of negligence that lead to vehicle deaths. I don't see any reason that a comprehensive approach to firearms couldn't do the same thing.

Truly interesting stat there, Henry. Of course the timeline here is really showing that shift immediately after the mass production of those cars, so I'd imagine a similar trend would have been there immediately after the mass production of firearms as well (something like deaths per 100m bullets fired or something).

I mean the airbag wasn't really even used in cars in the US till the 1970s, and according to your chart the number of deaths had already been reduced by 7/8s in the prior 50 years. It wasn't till 1998 that airbags were mandatory in newly made cars, and there's been no significant change in the number of deaths since. Even seat belt usage wasn't legislated till 1984 - at which point your stat had already been reduced by ~90%.

 

[Henry Ford]

I mean, you can't prevent drunk idiots from driving, or bad drivers from being bad drivers, or bad parents from failing to protect their kids in vehicles, or any number of other things. But we can require safety features in vehicles that have dramatically reduced vehicle deaths per mile driven over the last 40-50 years or so, along with targeted legislation aimed at reducing the individual types of negligence that lead to vehicle deaths. I don't see any reason that a comprehensive approach to firearms couldn't do the same thing.

Truly interesting stat there, Henry. Of course the timeline here is really showing that shift immediately after the mass production of those cars, so I'd imagine a similar trend would have been there immediately after the mass production of firearms as well (something like deaths per 100m bullets fired or something).I mean the airbag wasn't really even used in cars in the US till the 1970s, and according to your chart the number of deaths had already been reduced by 7/8s in the prior 50 years. It wasn't till 1998 that airbags were mandatory in newly made cars, and there's been no significant change in the number of deaths since. Even seat belt usage wasn't legislated till 1984 - at which point your stat had already been reduced by ~90%.

Sorry, is your premise that seat belts and airbags don't reduce vehicle deaths? I'm just trying to figure out exactly how stupid this conversation is about to be.

 

[Henry Ford]

Keeping in mind of course that driver's licenses became a requirement right around the same time as your mass production theory would have kicked in, too.

 

[pantagrapher]

I mean, you can't prevent drunk idiots from driving, or bad drivers from being bad drivers, or bad parents from failing to protect their kids in vehicles, or any number of other things. But we can require safety features in vehicles that have dramatically reduced vehicle deaths per mile driven over the last 40-50 years or so, along with targeted legislation aimed at reducing the individual types of negligence that lead to vehicle deaths. I don't see any reason that a comprehensive approach to firearms couldn't do the same thing.

Truly interesting stat there, Henry. Of course the timeline here is really showing that shift immediately after the mass production of those cars, so I'd imagine a similar trend would have been there immediately after the mass production of firearms as well (something like deaths per 100m bullets fired or something).I mean the airbag wasn't really even used in cars in the US till the 1970s, and according to your chart the number of deaths had already been reduced by 7/8s in the prior 50 years. It wasn't till 1998 that airbags were mandatory in newly made cars, and there's been no significant change in the number of deaths since. Even seat belt usage wasn't legislated till 1984 - at which point your stat had already been reduced by ~90%.

Sorry, is your premise that seat belts and airbags don't reduce vehicle deaths? I'm just trying to figure out exactly how stupid this conversation is about to be.

 

[Jamesbrownkid]

Statement from the guy he let live to tell his story:


Thursday started out as any other day would've. I got to school on time, sat down and pulled out the paper to turn it.

It was about 30 or 40 minutes into the class when I heard a couple of shots fired, I couldn't hear anything when he had walked in because my ears where ringing so badly.

When I saw the gun when he walked in the first thought in my head was that this couldn't be real. The first thing I could hear was him telling everybody to get onto the ground, I listened and figured that if I did so throughout I wouldn't be harmed. He then told everybody to get into the center of the room and be quiet. He then put his backpack on the front desk and pulled out an envelope and said that there is a flash drive in this and whoever survives this should give it to the police.

He looked directly at me and said hey kid with the glasses you are the lucky one, I will not shoot you if you give this to the cops. I stood up and he pointed the gun at me and this is the moment I thought I was going to die. He paused for a second and then handed the envelope to me and said to sit in the very back seat and face him. I then did so as he fired a couple of shots into the crowd of students in the center.

The shooter then asked one of the other students to stand up and when he did asked him if he was religious. The student said he was Christian and was shot. He then had another student stand up and asked him the same, when he answered Catholic the shooter then asked if he believed in the afterlife. The student said I don't know and the shooter thanked him for standing up for his beliefs and shot him.

One of the girls that was lying near the front of the class then said that she was sorry for whatever happened to him and for whatever she had done wrong. The shooter then said that he bets she was and shot her. At that point he was just firing on people who were just lying there and stopped when he heard a woman outside and shot out the window by the door. That is when he looked out the door and saw a man standing outside. The man asked him not to shoot him because it's his son's birthday.

The shooter then fired multiple shots out of the door and shut it. When he looked back in he looked at everybody and said that he was glad there where some people alive. The shooter then asked a student in the back of the class if she would stand up and she said that her legs wouldn't move because she was in too much pain.

He seemed to have lost interest and pointed his gun to another student in the back and told her to stand up, she got scared and picked up a desk to defend herself and he shot through it anyway and hit her in the leg. At that point the police had shown up and where yelling from outside which alerted the shooter and he looked outside then fired some shots. As he was doing this he was reloading his two handguns with ammunition in his backpack. He never left the class but only leaned about half of his torso out of the classroom to fire on the police. The shooter leaned out of the classroom about two times and was shot by one of the officers then retreated into the class. When this happened, he laid down on the ground and shot himself in the head.

This is my recollection, my story of the events that unfolded Thursday in the Snyder building of UCC. The reason I have for writing this statement is for me to get my story out in a way that I feel comfortable. The final thing I want to add is that I and everybody else should get from this is that any day could be your last. You don't want anybody's last memory of you to be a bad one so everybody needs to take it upon themselves to just be a lot nicer to people.