Thread to Discuss the Texas school shooting - no politics (1 Viewer)

[Frostillicus]

What we know so far about the Santa Fe school shooting

(CNN)Nine students and a teacher were killed Friday morning in a shooting at Santa Fe High School in the southeastern Texas city of Santa Fe. It's the 22nd school shooting in the US in 2018. As of 2:30 p.m. ET, this is what we know:

CASUALTIES

10 people are dead, a law enforcement official said.

Nine of those killed are students and one a teacher.

Two law enforcement officers are among those injured.

At least 13 people have been hospitalized.

THE SUSPECT

A male suspect, believed to be a 17-year-old student in his teens, is in custody.

He was injured, according to a law enforcement official.

Investigators have not found the suspect in the system for purchasing hand guns.

A second person, 18 and also believed to be a student, has been detained as well, officials said.

WHAT HAPPENED

Sheriff's officials received reports of an active shooting at the school just before 8 a.m.

An armed person walked into an art class at the school and began firing what looked like a shotgun, a witness told CNN affiliate KTRK.

Pipe bombs and pressure cookers were found at the scene, according to a law enforcement official.

Investigators are searching a trailer nearby where it is believed explosive devices were assembled, according to a law enforcement source, who says a pressure cooker has been found.

Explosive devices are also found in surrounding areas.

 

[El Floppo]

Was he a current student at that school?

Yeesh... Not that any choice is good, but Art class?

 

[Mystery Achiever]

Yes, current student. More details:
 

He was wearing “trenchcoat and big boots,” according to a student who said he saw the shooter. Police have not confirmed what he was wearing.

He is 17 years old.

He was injured in the attack.

He gave himself up to police at the school after the attack.

He is in the 11th grade at Santa Fe High School.

He threw pipe bombs into some classrooms, witnesses say. Devices were found in and around the school, officials said.

The weapon Pagourtzis used was described as a shotgun by witnesses, but police have not confirmed that.

Law enforcement says a pressure cooker with an explosive device was found at the scene.

A Facebook page under the same name as Pagourtzis, has been taken down.

A witness said students and coaches at the school would bully Pagourtzis and “call him names.”

He used a shotgun and a .38 caliber handgun in the attack. The weapons belonged to Pagourtzis’ father, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said in a press conference.

Gov. Greg Abbott said that shooter told investigators that he wanted to commit suicide after carrying out the shooting and had detailed his planning for the attack on his computer and journal. "As you probably know, he gave himself up and admitted that he didn't have the courage to commit the suicide," Abbott said.

He added the gunman used two weapons in the attack, a shotgun and .38 revolver. Both of the firearms were legally owned by the gunman's father. Abbott said he did not know if the father knew that the suspect had possession of the firearms.

(Copied from Atlanta Journal Constitution and USA Today)

 

[The General]

Coaches bullied the kid? Eeesh. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Coaches bullied the kid? Eeesh. 

Sounds like "bullied" might be used a bit loosely here.

 

[Quint]

any word on the additional person(s) of interest? 

 

[JB Breakfast Club]

"Both of the firearms were legally owned by the gunman's father." - I'd like to know if they were secured in the home or easily available.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I saw an unconfirmed video of his social media. Looked like he had some nazi paraphernalia.

Per CNN one of his Facebook postings showed Nazi, communist, fascist, and religious symbols and another made reference to Hammer & Sickle, Rising Sun, Kamakazie Tactics, Iron Cross, Baphomet, and Cthulu.

Kid had no idea what he was.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

And yet he was armed.  With guns.

Careful...

 

[Short Corner]

Sounds like "bullied" might be used a bit loosely here.

How so?

 

[Dedfin]

So sad. My thoughts go to the victims and families. I hope no one here has to go through one of these, they seem absolutely gut wrenching.

 

[Mystery Achiever]

I'm guessing this student's account is the source of the bullying comments.
 

Dustin Severin, a 17-year-old student, told NBC affiliate KPRC that he saw Pagourtzis in the hallway shortly before the bullets started flying — and that he was wearing his usual outfit.

"He wears a trenchcoat every day, and it's like 90 degrees out here," Severin said.

Pagourtzis, Severin added, was the victim of bullying — and not just by other students.

"He's been picked on by coaches before, for smelling bad and stuff like that," Severin said. "And he doesn't really talk to very many people either. He keeps to himself."

 

[The General]

Every large school has kids like this. Scary stuff.

The Dad should be up ####'s Creek because his gun was used.

 

[GoBirds]

Thank you guys for the good summary. Crazy times, what is wrong with people. Scares the crap out of me with 2 in school and married to a teacher, t&p tp the victims and families.  Ugh. 

 

[El Floppo]

so... Outcast kid, getting picked on by peers and adults. 

Any more news about the dad's guns and how he got access? 

 

[cosjobs]

All the politics in one pic

 

[Binky The Doormat]

so... Outcast kid, getting picked on by peers and adults. 

Any more news about the dad's guns and how he got access? 

Unless you have little kids, I would think that the older kids would know where the keys are kept/or the combination if they really were so inclined.  

As a parent, I would certainly be concerned if he was wearing "Born to Kill" t-shirts and had nazi symbols in the room - and resecured the guns with a new combination or new hiding spot for the keys ...

 

[El Floppo]

Unless you have little kids, I would think that the older kids would know where the keys are kept/or the combination if they really were so inclined.  

As a parent, I would certainly be concerned if he was wearing "Born to Kill" t-shirts and had nazi symbols in the room - and resecured the guns with a new combination or new hiding spot for the keys ...

Is that normal? I'd figure an older teen would be able to figure it out, but massive today's shooting can lead to parents being even more careful and teen proof their guns....somehow.

And do we know how secure these funds guns were today? In a locked box?

 

[Epic Problem]

Unless you have little kids, I would think that the older kids would know where the keys are kept/or the combination if they really were so inclined.  

As a parent, I would certainly be concerned if he was wearing "Born to Kill" t-shirts and had nazi symbols in the room - and resecured the guns with a new combination or new hiding spot for the keys ...

Always a chance the apple isnt falling far from the tree and dad’s goose-stepping around the house.

And regardless, as someone mentioned before, your guns, your responsibility. Hope he pays a heavy price 

 

[shadyridr]

Per CNN one of his Facebook postings showed Nazi, communist, fascist, and religious symbols and another made reference to Hammer & Sickle, Rising Sun, Kamakazie Tactics, Iron Cross, Baphomet, and Cthulu.

Kid had no idea what he was.

Neither did his parents apparently

 

[Wrigley]

How did he get the guns into the school?  

 

[shadyridr]

How did he get the guns into the school?  

I assume he just walked through the doors

 

[Wrigley]

I assume he just walked through the doors

Under the trench, I’d assume then 

 

[El Floppo]

Under the trench, I’d assume then 

And the bombs and the bombs and the guns... 

ETA. Dunno why I quoted cranberries there...assuming he had a bag for the bombs.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Is that normal? I'd figure an older teen would be able to figure it out, but massive today's shooting can lead to parents being even more careful and teen proof their guns....somehow.

And do we know how secure these funds guns were today? In a locked box?

This is Texas, fathers and sons hunt together ...its a religion.  I'm not defending anybody, I'm just pointing out how hard it would be to prevent your 17 yr old son from getting to your guns if he really wanted to.  

Note:  I live in Arkansas and own zero guns.  Not against them ...just not for me.  My now 21 yr old son has had a couple of hunting rifles since he was 15.  

 

[shadyridr]

This is Texas, fathers and sons hunt together ...its a religion.  I'm not defending anybody, I'm just pointing out how hard it would be to prevent your 17 yr old son from getting to your guns if he really wanted to.  

Note:  I live in Arkansas and own zero guns.  Not against them ...just not for me.  My now 21 yr old son has had a couple of hunting rifles since he was 15.  

 How hard is it to keep them in a safe unless you are saying most 17 year olds are masters at safe hacking. 

 

[Binky The Doormat]

 How hard is it to keep them in a safe unless you are saying most 17 year olds are masters at safe hacking. 

What I am saying is that many families in that part of the country are using what amounts to be a "family" gun safe.  They are using it to keep the guns out of the hands of small children and/or thieves.  Not out of the hands of teens that typically hunt with them or on their own.   

I'll repeat - not saying that is what happened here. 

I am saying that what I just described is true for the vast majority of my friends and their families.  

 

[shadyridr]

What I am saying is that many families in that part of the country are using what amounts to be a "family" gun safe.  They are using it to keep the guns out of the hands of small children and/or thieves.  Not out of the hands of teens that typically hunt with them or on their own.   

I'll repeat - not saying that is what happened here. 

I am saying that what I just described is true for the vast majority of my friends and their families.  

That's fair but I wouldn't describe it as you originally did as "harder than you think "

 

[Binky The Doormat]

That's fair but I wouldn't describe it as you originally did as "harder than you think "

Fair, yeah, it is different.  Sorry - I did move on you.

I'll go back to that point about the challenge in preventing a teen that wants to get into something (gun safe, safe, something locked they aren't supposed to be in).  

I don't want to get into it, but we have first-hand experience with a determined teen getting into #### we didn't want them in (was money).  At first, we didn't realize what was happening - just that stuff was disappearing.  We thought it might be cleaning lady ...maybe I misplaced/lost some - just wasn't sure.  

Found out what was going on, bought a safe with digital combination and hid the emergency key.  After awhile, I could swear money was disappearing again, but wasn't sure.  Checked my key and moved it again.

Long story shortened - money appeared to be missing again, etc. etc.  Turns out the teen found the key ...twice.  

Point:  In addition to me clearly being a ####ty key hider, a determined teen can often find a way.  

 

[Dedfin]

What I am saying is that many families in that part of the country are using what amounts to be a "family" gun safe.  They are using it to keep the guns out of the hands of small children and/or thieves.  Not out of the hands of teens that typically hunt with them or on their own.   

I'll repeat - not saying that is what happened here. 

I am saying that what I just described is true for the vast majority of my friends and their families.  

As a person that grew up in Arkansas in a hunting family this is accurate from my experience.

 

[RokNRole]

Thank you guys for the good summary. Crazy times, what is wrong with people. Scares the crap out of me with 2 in school and married to a teacher, t&p tp the victims and families.  Ugh. 

What’s wrong with the shooter or the people that bullied him?

 

[GoBirds]

What’s wrong with the shooter or the people that bullied him?

Good question 

 

[culdeus]

Every large school has kids like this. Scary stuff.

The Dad should be up ####'s Creek because his gun was used.

I've never heard of a parent being held for something like that. Is ot because the kid is 17?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

JJ Watt is paying for the funerals for all the victims.  Great gesture by a great guy. 

 

[Chemical X]

nothing will be done about guns, this is a given at this point.  schools need to look at arenas and office buildings and how they operate.  i think every kid should be issued a picture key card.  i think schools should stagger start times, have designated entry points that are manned with metal detectors and turnstiles.  first you pass the detector, then you card in.  have these entry points manned at all hours.  i know this won’t prevent someone getting on campus or waiting outside, etc.  yes, this shooter would’ve had a badge, but he wouldn’t have made it past detectors.  also, i believe a law should be enacted that faults the gun owner and makes them liable, additionally, life without parole if you shoot on school property.  having a gun on school property should carry mandatory time.  

pretty tired of thoughts and prayers and somewhere strong and vigils.  

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

“He was bullied” comes from one other kid.  I wish people would stop bringing this up.  

 

[Chemical X]

Or sensible gun and mental health legislation, which has been proven to work.  Either or.

well, if the dad locked up the guns.......

for drivers licenses, notary, just  about everything, you need to be licensed, take a test.  why not make acquiring a gun the same?  pass a test, get licensed, heck, maybe even be tested at a range.  but these ideas seem too logical i suppose.

 

[DJackson10]

"Both of the firearms were legally owned by the gunman's father." - I'd like to know if they were secured in the home or easily available.

I think it's past time we start making Negelectance (SP) part of owning a fire arm. Too many consistent school shootings seem to be kid gets firearms accessibility because they were legal owned in the home by parent/s. I do would like to know if this was secured or easily available though. I think it's past time we turned this into a law. Have someone come in to make sure they are secured and if not you have so many days to make sure they are properly secured or you risk fine or loss of firearms till you can safely place them somewhere. Obviously if these guns were easily available this father isn't a responsible gun owner at all and I question if he should even be allowed to hold them. I have a friend who dropped out of the NRA because he didn't like the way they were going. One of the few gun owners I know who is ok with some of the ideas the left has on gun control. He has a little daughter now and I've been over his house multiple times. Yes he has firearms but they are placed in safes with a digital lock code he only knows. He can easily access them if needed though but they are out of reach and somewhere others can't find them. He was also in the marines and takes great care of his weapons.   

 

[DJackson10]

So sad. My thoughts go to the victims and families. I hope no one here has to go through one of these, they seem absolutely gut wrenching.

My cousin works at Lockheed Martin up in Mass. He has co workers who knew people who had family members killed or had neighbors who knew people in the Sandy Hook shooting. Very tragic indeed. Many of these families still seek counseling and a few of them are now suing people and conspiracist like Alex Jones who as usually are trying to say the shooting was a conspiracy and the people were crisis actors etc etc. 

 

[DJackson10]

“He was bullied” comes from one other kid.  I wish people would stop bringing this up.  

You mean the he was bullied as an excuse for these gunmen? yeah I agree. Seems like nothing more then a deflection from the real issues at hand. Sensible gun laws, mental checks and other things could be done. Also our wonderful president one of the first thing he did in office was sign a bill that revoked a law Obama signed about not giving easy access of guns to mentally ill people. Funny how the right brings up people are mentally ill as an issue yet the person they voted for signed an order that made it easier for mentally ill to get a gun. 

 

[DJackson10]

well, if the dad locked up the guns.......

for drivers licenses, notary, just  about everything, you need to be licensed, take a test.  why not make acquiring a gun the same?  pass a test, get licensed, heck, maybe even be tested at a range.  but these ideas seem too logical i suppose.

In Australia where my Cousin's fiancee lives they have class licenses for guns like we do for car licenses. Certain guns have a certain license like a Hand gun is a different class then a long range fire arm. So you need to take two different classes if you want both and separate licenses. Also if you have an amount of guns by law you need to have a separate room for them to be stored in, locked at all times and have someone from the government come at your convience to inspect it. You also need to have an alarm and camera's in case someone breaks in. Also if you want an AR be prepared to mortgage the house for one. This doesn't included the bullets needed or any fancy attachments you want either. Some of these military grade like firearms in other countries you need to be a rich MOFO in order to get. These laws aren't hindering your rights to own a firearm by any means. However you have the crazy gun nuts who think they need them to protect themselves against "da gummber ment". And then you have the NRA which is no where close today to what they claim to be making false accusations how the government wants to take your guns away and other scare tactics to make people buy more. The NRA is nothing more then an unauthorized Union for gun shops these days. They love school shootings too because business sky rockets after these shootings. Here's the article from Times on a gun owner in Australia explaining their laws. A lot of these ideas I've discussed for awhile and for yrs not realizing Australia had a lot of these already. 

What it's like to be a Gun owner in Australia

 

[DJackson10]

I've never heard of a parent being held for something like that. Is ot because the kid is 17?

There's states where a parent can be held liable if an uninsured unlicensed child ends up stealing the family car and killing someone or getting into an accident. The parent is then held liable and can be arrested in extreme cases. I'm all for gun owners however I don't think a child under 16 or 17 should be allowed to shoot live firearms at all. I'm ok with learning the basic's of hunting like bow and arrow for starters and start them off with that at a certain age if you are a hunting family. Air soft guns, Paintball, Bibi guns etc etc. I think for a child to have a live gun we should treat it like getting a drivers license. Permit to learn how to use a gun then go to a range or whatever government owned and be tested. Pass the test you get your gun license however I'd want to class License guns and depending on the class of firearm you need a different license. No different then a person who has a car license but wants to ride a Motorcycle or drive a semi. You need another license as well. Guns should be treated the same way in terms of liability. 

 

[Mr.Pack]

Or sensible gun and mental health legislation, which has been proven to work.  Either or.

Mr. Ham with the first post bringing politics in!

My money wasn't on you Ham,  

 

[El Floppo]

Has there been a public statement about the kid's motive?

 

[DJackson10]

Has there been a public statement about the kid's motive?

Haven't seen one yet. I do find it ironic this kid was taken into custody unharmed by law enforce while armed and dangerous yet an unarmed black man gets made into Swiss cheese and dies because "Cops feared for their lives and he looked armed". I would have no issue a cop taking some liberties to clowns like this unlike the unarmed people they go after daily. If this piece of garbage was killed it have save a lot of paper work and tax paying $$$ too. Not saying I wished they killed the kid but I find it ironic considering circumstances

 

[El Floppo]

It’s patently ridiculous not to discuss politics in the same breath as these weekly occurrences.  It’s the equivalent of if the thread were about Polio deaths, and the disclaimer on the thread were, “Absolutely no talk of antibiotics!”  Yes, but...

Or you can wait a tic, let the facts/info come in and then fire into the politics. I know where I stand on this issue, I don't need posturing or grandstanding from either side to sway me, especially when the facts of each specific incident are still unknown. I prefer these FFA news threads to be fact based- and they've proven to be hugely useful in that regard, often times with local info we're not hearing in other parts of the country/world. plus, I... and you...can always head into the PF to argue the politics of it. my 2c

 

[Mr.Pack]

The thread title is to discuss without Politics. There is a forum for talking politics. Pretty simple, no one forced you into this thread, yet here you are. Take your politics to the PSF

 

[El Floppo]

Go to a news site.  Mass school shootings now happen at a clip of more than once per week.  Plenty of fact based reporting to be had.  This is a discussion board.  And there’s an elephant in this room.  

Not an elephant, imo. We're all aware of it and sickened by it. But the immediate elephantine inclusion isnt helpful to discussion and conglomeration of the facts...which are still coming in. This kind of thread offers a conglomeration of news items that I'd have to spend time I generally don't have picking through on the www at large, including oftwn local info.

 

[Mr.Pack]

I’ll make you a deal.  I’ll stay out of this thread, but don’t expect me to be silent on the one next week.  Or the one after that.

I don't get why it's so difficult to follow someones request when there's a forum completely set up for you to talk politics to your hearts content. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Sorry for derailing your thread, Frosty.

 

[Mystery Achiever]

Regarding motive, this falls under opinion for now. But a mother of one victim said her daughter had publicly rebuffed "aggressive advances" from the shooter and "A week layer he opens fire on everyone he didn't like."
If this was motive, it would be the second recent  "scorned guy" shooting I think it was Maryland where a student went after ex-girlfriend.