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Should a penalty be called on a sack where defensive player just lands on QB? (1 Viewer)

JohnnyU

Footballguy
OK, I'll try this a little nicer. Do you think the NFL has gone too far calling penalties on a sack where all the defensive player did was land on the QB? Has the NFL gone too far trying to protect the QB?
 
It's pretty obvious many of the roughing penalties have no business being penalties.
agreed.

I get what they're trying to do, but some of the calls have gotten entirely out of hand. Saw several flags on what looked like perfect form tackles which would never be considered a flag pre 2015 or against any other player on the field
 
I really wish they had a referee up in the box that could signal down when the on field referees are making a mistake. I think the game is much easier to watch and call on TV than it is in the field. On the quarterback it seems like the game is being called like the NBA and the referees are calling anticipation fouls
 
The Chris Jones sack on Carr was the stupidest thing.

He sacks Carr, Carr loses the football, Jones completes the sack by taking Carr down.
If Carr holds onto the ball, I believe it's not roughing the passer?

So because Jones sacked him too good--the Raiders get the ball back?
 
Subjective penalties will always create controversy. As pointed out above, the Chris Jones sack of Carr was a bad call and there should be recourse to overturn such calls.

Then again, the days of Tony Siragusa driving Rich Gannon into the ground then riding him like a fat guy on a boogey board being unpenalized are something I would not wish to return too either. That wasn't a better brand of football.
 
Should be a 15 yard penalty, disqualification for the player and every player on the team should be fined $100.000.
 
Then again, the days of Tony Siragusa driving Rich Gannon into the ground then riding him like a fat guy on a boogey board being unpenalized are something I would not wish to return too either. That wasn't a better brand of football.
I think you need something like this to attract women to the game.
 
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Many bad calls for sure, but it is also obvious in some instances players are trying to injure these guys. Some of the calls are really bad, absolutely, but qbs matter more than any other position and there are too few good ones as it is. I want to see teams at their best, with the mannings, bradys, mahomes etc. I know it is being called when it shouldn't be, but I am all for stopping 300-400 pound fat slobs from intentionally using their full weight to crush qb shoulders and collar bones. Reasonable minds may disagree fellas and thats just fine.
 
Many bad calls for sure, but it is also obvious in some instances players are trying to injure these guys. Some of the calls are really bad, absolutely, but qbs matter more than any other position and there are too few good ones as it is. I want to see teams at their best, with the mannings, bradys, mahomes etc. I know it is being called when it shouldn't be, but I am all for stopping 300-400 pound fat slobs from intentionally using their full weight to crush qb shoulders and collar bones. Reasonable minds may disagree fellas and thats just fine.
Yeah, but I don't think calling the penalty when a guy tries to block a pass and accidentally touches the QBs helmet does anything to stop the guys who are trying to smash the QB
 
Perhaps blatant cheap shops should be viewed as assault. I've always wondered why you can intentionally assault and injure someone on a playing field with no legal ramifications.
 
Many bad calls for sure, but it is also obvious in some instances players are trying to injure these guys. Some of the calls are really bad, absolutely, but qbs matter more than any other position and there are too few good ones as it is. I want to see teams at their best, with the mannings, bradys, mahomes etc. I know it is being called when it shouldn't be, but I am all for stopping 300-400 pound fat slobs from intentionally using their full weight to crush qb shoulders and collar bones. Reasonable minds may disagree fellas and thats just fine.
Kinda, yeah. It feels like a necessary evil.

As @Dr. Octopus pointed out in the other thread; Joe Flacco v Skylar Thompson isn't exactly what anyone has in mind when laying down time and hard earned dollars to watch football.
 
Perhaps blatant cheap shops should be viewed as assault. I've always wondered why you can intentionally assault and injure someone on a playing field with no legal ramifications.
Agree, that is the next step that we need. Police on the field, arresting players.
 
Perhaps blatant cheap shops should be viewed as assault. I've always wondered why you can intentionally assault and injure someone on a playing field with no legal ramifications.
Agree, that is the next step that we need. Police on the field, arresting players.
I'm pretty sure it can be handled afterwards.
But you are seriously ok with people injuring others intentionally? Ok
 
Many bad calls for sure, but it is also obvious in some instances players are trying to injure these guys. Some of the calls are really bad, absolutely, but qbs matter more than any other position and there are too few good ones as it is. I want to see teams at their best, with the mannings, bradys, mahomes etc. I know it is being called when it shouldn't be, but I am all for stopping 300-400 pound fat slobs from intentionally using their full weight to crush qb shoulders and collar bones. Reasonable minds may disagree fellas and thats just fine.
Seriously. There was an actual NFL game this season where Joe Flacco matched up against Skyler Thompson.
Like I said I wish they’d err on the side of not calling the penalty unless it was obvious - but having the faces of the product get driven into the ground by a 300 pound man calls for some action. I like the rule. I wish it wasn’t enforced so liberally.
 
Perhaps blatant cheap shops should be viewed as assault. I've always wondered why you can intentionally assault and injure someone on a playing field with no legal ramifications.
Agree, that is the next step that we need. Police on the field, arresting players.
I'm pretty sure it can be handled afterwards.
But you are seriously ok with people injuring others intentionally? Ok
I think if you read his other posts in this thread, he isn’t serious. Not sure why he’s responding this way because it doesn’t seem normal for him but I guess he’s going for humor today?
 
I think if you read his other posts in this thread, he isn’t serious. Not sure why he’s responding this way because it doesn’t seem normal for him but I guess he’s going for humor today?
Just seems like a silly thread. Of course a guy accidentally falling on someone shouldn't typically be a penalty. I think we all agree the NFL has gone a little too far with protecting QBs. We saw some awful roughing the passer penalties this year. The whole thread started kind of jokingly titled "put a skirt on them".

And as for the police involvement, that is nuts. It should have to be extremely violent and outside the bounds of any normal football play. Players should not be arrested, prosecuted or sued or a late hit or a low hit.
 
And as for the police involvement, that is nuts. It should have to be extremely violent and outside the bounds of any normal football play. Players should not be arrested, prosecuted or sued or a late hit or a low hit.
[/QUOTE]


Well, yeah.
How bout the Haynesworth stomp?
 
I don’t mind many of the roughing penalties.

I mind that every QB gets up begging for a flag every time someone breathes hard on them.

I also very much mind the “anti-gravity/physics” penalty, where an incoming defender has no way to possibly lay up before hitting/landing on a QB. And often we see them trying to avoid making direct contact and still getting dinged for 15.

Those are the ones I have the most problem with.
 
I don’t mind many of the roughing penalties.

I mind that every QB gets up begging for a flag every time someone breathes hard on them.

I also very much mind the “anti-gravity/physics” penalty, where an incoming defender has no way to possibly lay up before hitting/landing on a QB. And often we see them trying to avoid making direct contact and still getting dinged for 15.

Those are the ones I have the most problem with.
Exactly
 
And as for the police involvement, that is nuts. It should have to be extremely violent and outside the bounds of any normal football play. Players should not be arrested, prosecuted or sued or a late hit or a low hit.


Well, yeah.
How bout the Haynesworth stomp?
[/QUOTE]
Was saying it at the time....that was worthy of an assault charge. Absolutely brutal, and wasn't happy that he didn't get a MUCH stiffer fine/suspension
 
The NFL said only 3 calls were even "questionable" last year. Don't look for any rule changes.
Does that really mean anything? If the refs got all but a few calls right, great, but if they are calling based on a horrible rule........
The refs did their job, but the rule is stupid.
 
OK, I'll try this a little nicer. Do you think the NFL has gone too far calling penalties on a sack where all the defensive player did was land on the QB? Has the NFL gone too far trying to protect the QB?


I'll break it down in logistical terms

1) If you want fewer injured QBs, then you need reduce the weight profile of the players hitting them.

2) In every major professional sport, if you can't be insured, then you can't play. I won't delve into too many areas of sports law here, but the situations with Jahvid Best in the NFL and Chris Bosh in the NBA has changed some of the parameters of how any league apparatus deals with complex player health issues.

3) NFL HQ has an incentive to set complex physical standards to qualify for said insurance. Making it harder to pass that physical means players are essentially forced to cut weight across the board.

4) Since the NFLPA has pushed so hard on player safety and player health, that can be used against them in broad scale media optics.

5) Troy Vincent, in his post playing days as a league power broker, has shown again and again that he's corrupt and can be bought. He's the weak link to exploit on the management side.

6) The foothold for change will actually be DeShaun Watson. Not his off the field scandals, but his massive guaranteed contract. It's the contract that, once it was signed, almost single handedly would assure it would be a fulcrum point for a future labor war.

7) There are other fracture points, i.e. the severe health problems of retired players is a massive cost under the NFL's general insurance umbrella. Having more players operating at a lighter weight offers a relief point in multiple positive areas for the game.

8) From an administrative standpoint, the major tipping points will be getting a larger form of representation on both the Network (TV) Committee and the Competition Committee. The networks want more offensive. Since they sign the checks to those huge TV/Cable deals, they push hard with the old guard owners on the TV Committee, who leverage the make up of the Competition Committee.

There should be a 30 For 30 on the contrast between Kevin Mawae and Jeff Saturday in terms of "off the field" but as player activists. Mawae actually pushed hard for players rights and benefits. He couldn't be bought and he had the ill will of all the owners for it. And the networks. And even half the agents. Saturday was willing to play ball with the owners. It's why his media coverage was actually pretty soft when he ascended to a recent head coaching slot. Others in that position would have been savaged far worse in national daily sports media cycle.

In effect, there needs to be a purge of some of the old guard and legacy suits in the NFLPA. Some elements there certainly are not helping in terms of the general health and safety of players.

Does anyone think the modern NBA player thinks for one second about Bob Cousy? Because Cousy was instrumental in fighting for players rights, salary increases and benefits at great personal cost to himself. No one wants to be the next Mawae or the next Cousy because it's a thankless endeavor. The NFLPA needs to punish the traitors in their ranks who are wearing a leash by some of the owners. Troy Vincent betrayed his fellow players and ended up getting what amounts to a promotion for it. You can't lobby for player safety without cleaning house first.

I'm a lot older than probably anyone left in the FBG forums. Lots of people are gone now. I recognize many here won't really understand this when I say it, but I'll say it anyway - Collective bargaining has made it's biggest leaps when it has been uncivil, not civil. It's biggest changes when it brokered surgical level violence instead of patience and more talking.

To the NFL owners, the players are nothing more than favored pets. Nothing better than cattle.

You cannot negotiate with tyrants. You can however threaten their legacy, which is worth more to them than money and power. That's all the bargaining you will ever need. But there are no Kevin Mawae types in this new generation of entitled mind numbingly soft players. Most are just carbon copies of Jackie Aprile Jr with bigger gold chains. The current slate of players might not be bright enough to understand that attacking legacy is leverage again the wealthy.

As long as John Mara has someone like Peter King spit shining his shoes for him, nothing is going to change. People listen to leverage, not reason.
 
OK, I'll try this a little nicer. Do you think the NFL has gone too far calling penalties on a sack where all the defensive player did was land on the QB? Has the NFL gone too far trying to protect the QB?


I'll break it down in logistical terms

1) If you want fewer injured QBs, then you need reduce the weight profile of the players hitting them.

2) In every major professional sport, if you can't be insured, then you can't play. I won't delve into too many areas of sports law here, but the situations with Jahvid Best in the NFL and Chris Bosh in the NBA has changed some of the parameters of how any league apparatus deals with complex player health issues.

3) NFL HQ has an incentive to set complex physical standards to qualify for said insurance. Making it harder to pass that physical means players are essentially forced to cut weight across the board.

4) Since the NFLPA has pushed so hard on player safety and player health, that can be used against them in broad scale media optics.

5) Troy Vincent, in his post playing days as a league power broker, has shown again and again that he's corrupt and can be bought. He's the weak link to exploit on the management side.

6) The foothold for change will actually be DeShaun Watson. Not his off the field scandals, but his massive guaranteed contract. It's the contract that, once it was signed, almost single handedly would assure it would be a fulcrum point for a future labor war.

7) There are other fracture points, i.e. the severe health problems of retired players is a massive cost under the NFL's general insurance umbrella. Having more players operating at a lighter weight offers a relief point in multiple positive areas for the game.

8) From an administrative standpoint, the major tipping points will be getting a larger form of representation on both the Network (TV) Committee and the Competition Committee. The networks want more offensive. Since they sign the checks to those huge TV/Cable deals, they push hard with the old guard owners on the TV Committee, who leverage the make up of the Competition Committee.

There should be a 30 For 30 on the contrast between Kevin Mawae and Jeff Saturday in terms of "off the field" but as player activists. Mawae actually pushed hard for players rights and benefits. He couldn't be bought and he had the ill will of all the owners for it. And the networks. And even half the agents. Saturday was willing to play ball with the owners. It's why his media coverage was actually pretty soft when he ascended to a recent head coaching slot. Others in that position would have been savaged far worse in national daily sports media cycle.

In effect, there needs to be a purge of some of the old guard and legacy suits in the NFLPA. Some elements there certainly are not helping in terms of the general health and safety of players.

Does anyone think the modern NBA player thinks for one second about Bob Cousy? Because Cousy was instrumental in fighting for players rights, salary increases and benefits at great personal cost to himself. No one wants to be the next Mawae or the next Cousy because it's a thankless endeavor. The NFLPA needs to punish the traitors in their ranks who are wearing a leash by some of the owners. Troy Vincent betrayed his fellow players and ended up getting what amounts to a promotion for it. You can't lobby for player safety without cleaning house first.

I'm a lot older than probably anyone left in the FBG forums. Lots of people are gone now. I recognize many here won't really understand this when I say it, but I'll say it anyway - Collective bargaining has made it's biggest leaps when it has been uncivil, not civil. It's biggest changes when it brokered surgical level violence instead of patience and more talking.

To the NFL owners, the players are nothing more than favored pets. Nothing better than cattle.

You cannot negotiate with tyrants. You can however threaten their legacy, which is worth more to them than money and power. That's all the bargaining you will ever need. But there are no Kevin Mawae types in this new generation of entitled mind numbingly soft players. Most are just carbon copies of Jackie Aprile Jr with bigger gold chains. The current slate of players might not be bright enough to understand that attacking legacy is leverage again the wealthy.

As long as John Mara has someone like Peter King spit shining his shoes for him, nothing is going to change. People listen to leverage, not reason.
…..yet a legal tackle still shouldn’t be penalized.
 
I get what the league wants (their star QBs on the field as much as possible). But is there any data that shows that calling some extra roughing the passer calls on what in previous years would have been nothing burgers has reduced the number of injuries? It seems to me almost all the injuries are incidental . . . guys running and twisting something, a QB following through and breaking a thumb on a helmet, landing wrong on a shoulder on a play that wasn't a roughing the passer situation, etc. Injuries are part of the game . . . not sure how you ground rule out plays that could result in injuries.
 

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