rockaction
Footballguy
For the second question, I'd appreciate answers regarding why.
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Should Gender Be Synonymous With Biological Sex? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
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captain_amazing
Footballguy
I'd recommend adding "both" for question 2. I think some gov forms should collect both pieces of information - one on biological sex and one on self-identified gender. I don't think the most important forms (e.g. Drivers lisence) needs gender identity, but having that data collected, say in the census and American community surveys, would be helpful in tracking trends in how gender identity in society shifts over time.
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SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Easy question. Yes.
rockaction
Footballguy
The government form and intersex people is where I was going, BTW.
I'm also talking about language when it comes to "gender" and "sex," not whether we should live our gender according to our biological sex. The words themselves have a huge implication.
I'm also talking about language when it comes to "gender" and "sex," not whether we should live our gender according to our biological sex. The words themselves have a huge implication.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't necessarily agree with tracking this sort of stuff, but this is a thoughtful response.
skol asylum
Footballguy
By definition not the same.
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between and from masculinity and femininity.
Biological sex is our anatomy as female, male, or intersex. It includes our internal and external sex organs, chromosomes, and hormones. Some people are intersex rather than female or male.
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between and from masculinity and femininity.
Biological sex is our anatomy as female, male, or intersex. It includes our internal and external sex organs, chromosomes, and hormones. Some people are intersex rather than female or male.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Dr Oadi
Footballguy
captain_amazing
Footballguy
I wonder if at one point in time they truly were defined synonymously and, if they were, I wonder what caused them to be defined differently today. But, I do think this is the main issue for most people, in that many who self-identify as part of the LGBTQ community make distinctions between gender and biological sex in such a way that is very important to their identity as a person whereas many who do not self-identify with that community look at both terms as one in the same and do not think there is a significant reason to make differentiations. I don't think either is wrong, but I do think that is why in some instances arguments on both sides of similar gender/biological sex debates are made im a way that largely passes over one another.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
And to think, "boys have a penis and girls have a vag!na" once seemed so obvious and fundamental. The world is a complicated place.
captain_amazing
Footballguy
"The state of being male or female" is how gender is defined in the link you posted. However, there is a distinction between that and "biological sex," which focuses on sex organs as the identifier.
For instance, one could be describe as being in a "female" gender state because they are wearing a dress that is culturally associated with those who have a female biological sex organ, but in fact they have a male biological sex organ, or vice versa. Again, it's semantics and not everyone agrees on the definition of terms, but those definitions are often at the crux of these debates, even if not specifically addressed (unlike this thread).
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
So is this where all the Thai ladyboys are hanging out?
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
So to speak.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yep. It's why I started the thread and added a government aspect to it. Should we be stating our "gender" as a synonym for "sex" when we sign onto a message board? What are the implications of that? What should we fill out on government forms?captain_amazing said:
And what about the intersexed or hermaphroditic? Where do they fall on gov't forms if they are in varying states or are unaltered?
rockaction
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
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Gachi
Footballguy
I must admit that even as a gay man a lot of this trans/gender fluid stuff confuses me. I even know of guys who identify as "non-gender conforming" who changed their name to something more feminine but don't dress up like a woman. I still don't get how one can "feel" like they're supposed to be the opposite gender or sex or whatever.
But I guess that's the same as straight men not understanding why I'm not into women..
But I guess that's the same as straight men not understanding why I'm not into women..
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I'd vote "yes" on #1. I understand the difference between gender and sex, but in everyday conversation there's nothing terribly wrong with using those terms interchangeably. Or to put it a little differently, correcting somebody who used the term "gender" when they technically should have said "sex" seems pedantic and worthy of a face-punching, like when somebody tells you that you should have said "whom" instead of "who." Or like the type of person who jumps into every conversation about voting to remind everybody that the US is technically a republic, not a democracy.
I can't decide on #2. I suppose the answer depends on why the government is asking about this information in the first place. If it wants to compile data related to non-Faulkian testicular cancer, then obviously it should be looking at sex, not gender. If it wants to study male-female wage disparities, then gender is probably the more relevant angle.
I can't decide on #2. I suppose the answer depends on why the government is asking about this information in the first place. If it wants to compile data related to non-Faulkian testicular cancer, then obviously it should be looking at sex, not gender. If it wants to study male-female wage disparities, then gender is probably the more relevant angle.
The Commish
Footballguy
If someone can give me a good reason why they should be separated, I am all ears, but I don't see why we need to change the definition of words. As to #2, I don't know why either is ever asked on forms in the first place. However, there wasn't an option for that so I marked "sex" just because I had to pick one to participate.
Rove!
Footballguy
Rove!
Footballguy
When putting Gender on forms, there are a lot of potential answered to consider.
Facebook gives 58 options
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users/
here is another potential list of options: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities
Facebook gives 58 options
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/02/heres-a-list-of-58-gender-options-for-facebook-users/
here is another potential list of options: http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The way the government uses the term they are synonymous. Both my passport and DL use the term sex and there are processes that allow you to change that status if you wish and as of 2010 no longer requires sex reassignment surgery.
I think government gender identification and law should be used to solve the current public bathroom debates. I don't think it's too much to ask for a trans gender person to include a doctor in the determination of what is at it's base a health and well being issue. I think more definitions and choices should be available to facilitate this such as identification cards available for children starting at the age of ~12 since puberty plays a significant role in determining gender and this seems the most appropriate time (vs 16) where using a certain bathroom might make a difference to an individual. If clear avenues were presented in changing gender identification the laws being made by some states to enforce the government identification for bathroom use might be more palatable to the far left.
I think government gender identification and law should be used to solve the current public bathroom debates. I don't think it's too much to ask for a trans gender person to include a doctor in the determination of what is at it's base a health and well being issue. I think more definitions and choices should be available to facilitate this such as identification cards available for children starting at the age of ~12 since puberty plays a significant role in determining gender and this seems the most appropriate time (vs 16) where using a certain bathroom might make a difference to an individual. If clear avenues were presented in changing gender identification the laws being made by some states to enforce the government identification for bathroom use might be more palatable to the far left.
cstu
Footballguy
Exactly - we don't need to understand why other people are the way they are. If they aren't hurting anyone then let them be.
rockaction
Footballguy
This is interesting. I see your point with respect to pedantry, but much like the voting discussion you mention, certain aspects of policy are muddled by a lack of precise definitions when it comes to gender/sex. It's sort of a Wittgensteinian issue (I am no expert nor even really competent with him). But If you accept that certain problems in philosophy are caused by imprecise language and definitions, then it's not too hard to accept that there are certain public policy issues that stem also from a lack of precision with our language and our definitions. I think a lot of people don't actually know the difference between a republic and a democracy, and the spectrum there really is integral to the debate. The movement along that spectrum (especially the direct election of senators) fundamentally changed politics at the local and national level. It was seismic. I don't know; I hate pedantry for pedantry's sake, too, but I'm not sure when the outcome is high school locker rooms and a fundamental lack of knowledge of our state legislatures by almost every voting member of the republic that these definitions and the clarity thereof is pedantry. Scoldy in social situations? Probably. But as soon as the real debate starts, we can see the problem with the common conception of the imprecision language and the concepts that follow.
As for the second point, I also can understand it, but I'm not sure sex isn't relevant to the wage disparity gap especially since pregnancy or the problems attendant to the labor force with respect to pregnancy wouldn't have to be figured in somewhere, as I believe most models take this into account. I think you're right to a degree, but I'm having a hard time off of the top of my head where identity is an issue on a government form. I think collecting that information is better left to Mssrs. Pew and Gallup.
I can think of one exception: collecting intersex data. I think it would be valuable for health reasons and for issues such as how, who, and when to reassign.
rockaction
Footballguy
Interesting link and take. I note that the passport does require a physician and a movement towards gender transition, whatever that may be these days. (I am unsure what steps qualify as facilitating the beginning the gender transition process.)
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