Should Shanahan be Fired? (1 Viewer)

[Raleigh Reef]

I am a self-proclaimed Broncomaniac, and I don't think I've ever been as embarrased to be a Broncos fan as I was on Sunday when the Lions just came in and absolutely manhandled Denver. It seriously looked like the Patriots against the Dolphins. I keep hearing from Bronco fans that the team is very talented and Shanahan's a great coach, but right now I don't see it. When I look at the Broncos drafts of the past few years, I see them trading up to get Maurice Clarett, trading draft picks for the entire Cleveland Browns D-line, and then getting rid of them after two seasons. I see undrafted free agent rookies getting starts at running back, and I see Denver trading a bunch of draft picks to get Marcus Thomas in the 4th round, who may have lasted until the 7th, and who's not making an impact. Basically, I see a team that has a terrible defense, an offense with a bad offensive line, and terrible special teams due to a lack of depth due to overpriced free agent signings to compensate for bad draft after bad draft.

Are the Broncos really that talented, aside from having some offensive skill position players (one of whom is probably going to be suspended for a year), or does the media just assume that Denver is talented based on their performance a couple of years ago? Do the Broncos need to go in a different direction with their coaching staff?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Because Plummer > Cutler.

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

I hate to call Plummer better than anyone, but I just don't buy the hype on Cutler.

 

[AnonymousBob]

Countdown until we get a SSOG appearance.

 

[BusMan]

Folks calling for Shanahan's head always amuse me. The Broncos have had one of the most consistently good products since Shanahan took the reigns. He has had exactly one losing season in over a decade of coaching. He will leave on his own terms, not based on uninformed knee-jerk fan reaction. I'm a lifelong Broncos fan, and I don't want anyone else coaching them. He can stay as long as he wants, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. I have a strong feeling that long tenured coaches have consistently good products, and make better decisions that are focused on the team, rather than their job. Shanahan is the perfect example of this. The only other coaches I might even consider wanting over him are Fischer and, well, thats it.

 

[3C's]

No

 

[Two Deep]

Because Plummer > Cutler.

Because Mike Bell is >>>>>>>>>>than POT HEAD HENRY. This Henry guy is a friggin scoring machine. I tried to warn everyone before the season started.

 

[SSOG]

I hate to call Plummer better than anyone, but I just don't buy the hype on Cutler.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb.php

Countdown until we get a SSOG appearance.

4 posts. Sorry I'm late.

 

[Da Guru]

It does seem that Denver is ready for a change.

 

[SSOG]

It does seem that Denver is ready for a change.

And Pittsburgh was ready for a change after 1999 and 2003.

 

[[scooter]]

Because Plummer > Cutler.

Because Mike Bell is >>>>>>>>>>than POT HEAD HENRY. This Henry guy is a friggin scoring machine.

With women.

 

[a_troll00]

Broncos' fans sure have a lot of estrogen in them

 

[Paddy O'Seanessy]

Since Terrell Davis left, this is a team that occassionally wins the AFC Waste then gets diced up in the playoffs. This is like Bears fans and 1985!

 

[shredhead]

Lifelong Bronco fan here, and I don't know the answer. 3 things in this post that I do know are wrong are, 1) Plummer is not better than Cutler. Besides Marino and Roethlisberger, not many QB's look very good their first year as a starter. Give the kid time before proclaiming hiom a bust. 2) Mike Bell is not better than Travis Henry. Travis has definately seen his share of trouble and injuries this year, but to say Mike Bell ios better is ludicrous. Mike Bell isn't even better than Tatum Bell, and believe me, there is no ploy here. The Broncos will either have Young, Hall, or someone else at RB next year, so the Bell vs Henry topic is irrelavant. 3) The Broncos didn't trade up to get Maurice Clarrett. I don't quite remember the details, but they ended up with an extra 3rd round pick that year and took a huge gamble in thinking that Maurice would straighten his act. I think it was a bad and stupid gamble, but at least Mike is willing to put his butt on the line and not always take the safe route. If that gamble would have worked, he'd be looked at as a genius.

Like I said, I don't know the answers, but I know it is frustrating to watch a bad defense and special teams year after year. The O line is getting so old that they have almost missed the boat on grooming replacements. These old guys are getting hurt (Lepsis last year and Hamilton and Nalen this year) because they aren't what they used to be. The fact is, Bowlen believes in Shanahan and his job is safe for the forseeable future, so he better fix what is wrong. Who would you want to coach the Broncos anyway? Would Cowher want to take on this train wreck right now? He's about the only available coach I'd want over Shanahan right now. They can't be stupid like the Chargers last year and fire the coach just because. If they were going to fire Shanahan, thay should have done it a couple of years ago before Kubiak got away.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I hate to call Plummer better than anyone, but I just don't buy the hype on Cutler.

Cutler is still basically a rookie QB. He has started a grand total of 13 NFL games. And he has already shown the ability to perform well in the clutch. Just wait till next year, assuming he is healthy. Look at the leap that a marginal talent like Brian Griese made in his 3rd year with the team. Imagine what Cutler will do.

 

[KoolKat]

Anyone who thinks we should fire Shanahan is foolish. What are our options if we fire him?? Bring in an unproven, hyped college coach, last two being Saban and Spurrier? Or bring in a coach that has already cycled through the system and failed? Shanahan is already one of the best coaches in NFL history. He has won the Super Bowl 2 of 12 years he has been in the league, and been in the playoffs 7 times. Cut the guy some slack, he's had two bad years in his career. Look at Bill Cowher and Jeff Fischer, those guys are proof you should stick with what you have. If we were to fire him, he would be hired before we found a replacement. Plenty of teams would love to have him. The Broncos are riddled with injuries. I think the loss of Al Wilson has been a HUGE and underestimated loss of not only talent but leadership. Denver fans love to get on our coaches as soon as they have a little trouble, but there is nobody better to have out there, especially with Kubiak taken.

 

[SSOG]

I don't quite remember the details, but they ended up with an extra 3rd round pick that year and took a huge gamble in thinking that Maurice would straighten his act. I think it was a bad and stupid gamble, but at least Mike is willing to put his butt on the line and not always take the safe route. If that gamble would have worked, he'd be looked at as a genius.

I *do* remember the details. It was a compensatory draft pick, which can not be traded. It was also the very last pick of the 3rd round, meaning if it were just one pick later, Clarett would have been a "second day pick". So it was foolish to take Clarett with a "first day pick", but if Denver had traded down one pick (which they couldn't do, since compensatories can't be traded), it wouldn't have been such a gamble, since it would have been a "second day pick".Some more details about the Clarett incident that people conveniently forget. Bill Parcells was targeting Clarett and was going to take him in the 4th round. Shanahan didn't have another pick until the 6th round, and no way of trading into the 4th without mortgaging future draft picks (which would have been ludicrous with a perfectly good compensatory pick in the 3rd). Most importantly, Clarett wasn't even the highest drafted player who failed to make his team's 53-man roster... but somehow he's considered the biggest bust of that year? Please. There were other players who cost higher draft picks who busted just as spectacularly (even if they didn't have that slow-motion trainwreck feel to them). Most importantly, cutting Clarett didn't cost the Broncos a DIME in cap space (since he got zero guaranteed dollars), while cutting all of those players picked higher than Clarett resulted in a cap hit.People always bring up Clarett as if it is this unforgivable sin. Fact is, worse personnel moves are committed every single year by much better GMs.

I hate to call Plummer better than anyone, but I just don't buy the hype on Cutler.

Cutler is still basically a rookie QB. He has started a grand total of 13 NFL games. And he has already shown the ability to perform well in the clutch. Just wait till next year, assuming he is healthy. Look at the leap that a marginal talent like Brian Griese made in his 3rd year with the team. Imagine what Cutler will do.

According to Football Outsiders, Cutler is already the #10 QB in the league on a per-play basis. Which is very impressive, given the fact that he's been playing without Walker or Hamilton, he's now missing Nalen, and Marshall/Stokley/Scheffler were all injured all offseason and got no reps with Cutler. Cutler has looked worse than he's been in large part because of the quality of the competition he's faced- Pittsburgh and Indy have been real QB killers, and Oakland is still awesome against the pass this year (although their run defense leaves a LOT to be desired- it's even worse than Denver's).

 

[TinHat]

Shanny has become like the fantasy owner who believes that he is the smartest person the world and just starts making "crazy" moves in an effort to "look like a genius."

 

[Banger]

Their line is cracking due to age/injuries and are suffering as a result.

 

[Raleigh Reef]

I do agree that the loss of Wilson has really hurt the leadership on that defense. However, calling Shanahan one of the greatest coaches in history is a little off base. I think Shanahan, with his unlimited power over personnel decisions, has made a ton of extremely poor decisions in that department, both in the draft and free agency, during the past few seasons. Just to illustrate, let's look at the Broncos draft 4 and 5 years ago (it's too soon to say the last couple have been bad):2003 Draft1 - George Foster - Started for 2-3 seasons, no longer with the team2 - Terry Pierce - Never started a game, no longer with the team4 - Quentin Griffin - Started 4-5 games, no longer with the team4 - Nick Eason - I don't think he ever started a game - no longer with the team4 - Bryan McNeal - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team5 - Ben Claxton - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team5 - Adrian Madise - Never started a game, no longer with the team6 - Aaron Hunt - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team7 - Clint Mitchell - - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team8 - Ahmad Galloway - Never started a game2004 Draft1 - DJ Williams - Has been a starter, but is arguably one of the biggest dissapointments for the Broncos D this season2 - Tatum Bell - Started 1 season, no longer with the team2 - Darius Watts - Played for 1 - 1 1/2 seasons, no longer with the team3 - Jeremy LeSeur - Never started a game, no longer with the team5 - Jeff Shoate - Is still on the team...has received playing time due to injuries to Champ Bailey and Dre Bly6 - Triandos Luke - Never started a game, no longer with the team6 - Josh Sewell - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Matt Mauck - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Brandon Miree - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Bradlee Van Pelt - Never started a game, no longer with the teamTotal Players from these drafts still with the Broncos - 1 (DJ Williams)Total Pro Bowls from these players - 0Now, if you look at the Patriots draft from 2003 - 2004, they have the following starters on their team today:Ben WatsonVince WilforkTy WarrenEugene WilsonAsante SamuelDan KoppenThe Chargers have at least 4 starters, not even including Rivers, who they traded to get int he 2004 draft, or their kicker and punter, who were both drafted(Drayton Florence, Igor Olshansky, Shaun Phillips, Terrence Kiel)The Colts have yielded three huge difference makers from those drafts (Bob Sanders, Robert Mathis and Dallas Clark).That tells me that the Broncos have made poor personnel decisions on their drafts, which is very important due to the salary cap (the more hits you get on draft picks, the less you have to spend in free agency), and have won one playoff game since Elway retired. Why do we want to keep Shanahan?

Anyone who thinks we should fire Shanahan is foolish. What are our options if we fire him?? Bring in an unproven, hyped college coach, last two being Saban and Spurrier? Or bring in a coach that has already cycled through the system and failed? Shanahan is already one of the best coaches in NFL history. He has won the Super Bowl 2 of 12 years he has been in the league, and been in the playoffs 7 times. Cut the guy some slack, he's had two bad years in his career. Look at Bill Cowher and Jeff Fischer, those guys are proof you should stick with what you have. If we were to fire him, he would be hired before we found a replacement. Plenty of teams would love to have him. The Broncos are riddled with injuries. I think the loss of Al Wilson has been a HUGE and underestimated loss of not only talent but leadership. Denver fans love to get on our coaches as soon as they have a little trouble, but there is nobody better to have out there, especially with Kubiak taken.

 

[Raleigh Reef]

I know that's the age-old question: who would Denver get to replace Shanahan? I think Denver needs to get a GM who can evaluate talent (see my long winded post a few minutes ago), and let him decide on a coach. I think some potential replacements could be: - Jason Garrett - O-Coordinator of the Cowboys - Josh McDaniels - O-Coordinator of the Pats - Marty Shottenheimer (I know that sounds goofy, but I think the ultimate irony would be to have him be the Broncos coach and lead the Broncos to a Super Bowl...plus the guy has proven he can coach defense and pick great pass rushers (Derrick Thomas and Shawn Merriman come immediately to mind)) - Norm ChowThere's also Cowher (I doubt he's going to coach next year), and some other assistants.The point is there are some potentially great coaches out there, and Denver can't be scared to let go of the current regime because the coach won a couple of Super Bowls 10 years ago.

Lifelong Bronco fan here, and I don't know the answer. 3 things in this post that I do know are wrong are, 1) Plummer is not better than Cutler. Besides Marino and Roethlisberger, not many QB's look very good their first year as a starter. Give the kid time before proclaiming hiom a bust. 2) Mike Bell is not better than Travis Henry. Travis has definately seen his share of trouble and injuries this year, but to say Mike Bell ios better is ludicrous. Mike Bell isn't even better than Tatum Bell, and believe me, there is no ploy here. The Broncos will either have Young, Hall, or someone else at RB next year, so the Bell vs Henry topic is irrelavant. 3) The Broncos didn't trade up to get Maurice Clarrett. I don't quite remember the details, but they ended up with an extra 3rd round pick that year and took a huge gamble in thinking that Maurice would straighten his act. I think it was a bad and stupid gamble, but at least Mike is willing to put his butt on the line and not always take the safe route. If that gamble would have worked, he'd be looked at as a genius.Like I said, I don't know the answers, but I know it is frustrating to watch a bad defense and special teams year after year. The O line is getting so old that they have almost missed the boat on grooming replacements. These old guys are getting hurt (Lepsis last year and Hamilton and Nalen this year) because they aren't what they used to be. The fact is, Bowlen believes in Shanahan and his job is safe for the forseeable future, so he better fix what is wrong. Who would you want to coach the Broncos anyway? Would Cowher want to take on this train wreck right now? He's about the only available coach I'd want over Shanahan right now. They can't be stupid like the Chargers last year and fire the coach just because. If they were going to fire Shanahan, thay should have done it a couple of years ago before Kubiak got away.

 

[moleculo]

I do agree that the loss of Wilson has really hurt the leadership on that defense. However, calling Shanahan one of the greatest coaches in history is a little off base. I think Shanahan, with his unlimited power over personnel decisions, has made a ton of extremely poor decisions in that department, both in the draft and free agency, during the past few seasons. Just to illustrate, let's look at the Broncos draft 4 and 5 years ago (it's too soon to say the last couple have been bad):

2003 Draft

1 - George Foster - Started for 2-3 seasons, no longer with the team

2 - Terry Pierce - Never started a game, no longer with the team

4 - Quentin Griffin - Started 4-5 games, no longer with the team

4 - Nick Eason - I don't think he ever started a game - no longer with the team

4 - Bryan McNeal - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team

5 - Ben Claxton - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team

5 - Adrian Madise - Never started a game, no longer with the team

6 - Aaron Hunt - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team

7 - Clint Mitchell - - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team

8 - Ahmad Galloway - Never started a game

2004 Draft

1 - DJ Williams - Has been a starter, but is arguably one of the biggest dissapointments for the Broncos D this season

2 - Tatum Bell - Started 1 season, no longer with the team

2 - Darius Watts - Played for 1 - 1 1/2 seasons, no longer with the team

3 - Jeremy LeSeur - Never started a game, no longer with the team

5 - Jeff Shoate - Is still on the team...has received playing time due to injuries to Champ Bailey and Dre Bly

6 - Triandos Luke - Never started a game, no longer with the team

6 - Josh Sewell - Never started a game, no longer with the team

7 - Matt Mauck - Never started a game, no longer with the team

7 - Brandon Miree - Never started a game, no longer with the team

7 - Bradlee Van Pelt - Never started a game, no longer with the team

Total Players from these drafts still with the Broncos - 1 (DJ Williams)

Total Pro Bowls from these players - 0

Now, if you look at the Patriots draft from 2003 - 2004, they have the following starters on their team today:

Ben Watson

Vince Wilfork

Ty Warren

Eugene Wilson

Asante Samuel

Dan Koppen

The Chargers have at least 4 starters, not even including Rivers, who they traded to get int he 2004 draft, or their kicker and punter, who were both drafted(Drayton Florence, Igor Olshansky, Shaun Phillips, Terrence Kiel)

The Colts have yielded three huge difference makers from those drafts (Bob Sanders, Robert Mathis and Dallas Clark).

That tells me that the Broncos have made poor personnel decisions on their drafts, which is very important due to the salary cap (the more hits you get on draft picks, the less you have to spend in free agency), and have won one playoff game since Elway retired.

Why do we want to keep Shanahan?

Anyone who thinks we should fire Shanahan is foolish. What are our options if we fire him?? Bring in an unproven, hyped college coach, last two being Saban and Spurrier? Or bring in a coach that has already cycled through the system and failed? Shanahan is already one of the best coaches in NFL history. He has won the Super Bowl 2 of 12 years he has been in the league, and been in the playoffs 7 times. Cut the guy some slack, he's had two bad years in his career. Look at Bill Cowher and Jeff Fischer, those guys are proof you should stick with what you have. If we were to fire him, he would be hired before we found a replacement. Plenty of teams would love to have him. The Broncos are riddled with injuries. I think the loss of Al Wilson has been a HUGE and underestimated loss of not only talent but leadership. Denver fans love to get on our coaches as soon as they have a little trouble, but there is nobody better to have out there, especially with Kubiak taken.

IMO, Shanahan is the best play caller in the NFL and one of the most innovative offensive minds in the game. His personell decisions, however, leave much to be desired. Here is a much better breakdown of the Broncos past drafts and FA acquisitions.

 

[Raleigh Reef]

IMO, Shanahan is the best play caller in the NFL and one of the most innovative offensive minds in the game. His personell decisions, however, leave much to be desired. Here is a much better breakdown of the Broncos past drafts and FA acquisitions.

That link you provided is excellent, and illustrated my point! I do agree that Shanahan's a great play caller, and creates good offensive game plans (I know a lot of Bronco fans are complaining that Denver's not throwing deep. I was at the Broncos / Packers game, and they sent a guy deep on almost every play...he was just covered most of the time. Plus, their offensive line has not held up this season due to age and injury, meaning that Denver needs to either go max protection or throw quick short passes). In a perfect world, Denver would be able to keep Shanahan the coach and add someone who can make good personnel decisions. I think Shanahan, since losing Elway, has generally opted to sign free agents and draft players who are great athletes who don't have great football instincts (DJ Williams, Tatum Bell and Darius Watts all looked the part back in the day) or are talented football players with character issues (Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Travis Henry and Clarett all immediately come to mind). Before when he had Elway as a centerpiece, he signed hard working young players to long term deals (Terrell Davis, Rod Smith, Shannon Sharpe, and Tom Nalen), and added good role players and leaders through free agency such as Neil Smith, Rock Hoover (aka Mark Schlereth), Ed McCaffery, Howard Griffith (most underrated fullback of all time), and Darrien Gordon).

He's really gotten away from that formula as he reaches for another Super Bowl without Elway.

By the way - Thank you all for your input...great thread!

 

[WampusCat43]

I am a self-proclaimed Broncomaniac, and I don't think I've ever been as embarrased to be a Broncos fan as I was on Sunday when the Lions just came in and absolutely manhandled Denver. It seriously looked like the Patriots against the Dolphins. I keep hearing from Bronco fans that the team is very talented and Shanahan's a great coach, but right now I don't see it. When I look at the Broncos drafts of the past few years, I see them trading up to get Maurice Clarett, trading draft picks for the entire Cleveland Browns D-line, and then getting rid of them after two seasons. I see undrafted free agent rookies getting starts at running back, and I see Denver trading a bunch of draft picks to get Marcus Thomas in the 4th round, who may have lasted until the 7th, and who's not making an impact. Basically, I see a team that has a terrible defense, an offense with a bad offensive line, and terrible special teams due to a lack of depth due to overpriced free agent signings to compensate for bad draft after bad draft.Are the Broncos really that talented, aside from having some offensive skill position players (one of whom is probably going to be suspended for a year), or does the media just assume that Denver is talented based on their performance a couple of years ago? Do the Broncos need to go in a different direction with their coaching staff?

Welcome to our world.:BengalsFan:

 

[kwantam]

I've been nervous this year watching Denver's downward spiral that precisely what the OP suggests would happen, viz., suddenly Denver would decide to get rid of Shanahan in favor of "new blood." For those who support this course of action, I have two words: 2007 Chargers.

Schottenheimer was a frustratingly conservative coach at times, but he was also the winningest coach in the NFL at the time of his firing. It's both cliche and truth that if you can't win in the regular season, your postseason performance will be a perfect 0-0. Yes, Marty's playoff performance was abysmal, especially juxtaposed with his ability to win in the regular season, but no one in their right mind could possibly have expected Norv Turner to come in and improve San Diego's situation.

Shanahan is the same story for Denver, but more so. In my opinion, their respective records notwithstanding, Shanahan is a better coach by no small margin---in fact, I put him behind Belichick as the second best coach in the NFL right now (last year I would have put Schottenheimer and Cowher at 3 and 4, respectively, while this year the pickings are considerably slimmer [1]).

So who to blame? There is little doubt the answer is Cutler. Perhaps, as others have suggested, he'll grow out of it, and maybe cutting him slack on account of his inexperience is in order. It's nevertheless my opinion that Denver was better with Plummer at the helm. I hope, for all Denver fans' sakes, that Cutler turns out to be as good as that clown Kiper claims he is.

That's my $0.03 or so...

-=kwantam

[1] I'm sure someone out there will knee-jerk "what about Dungy," and no, I'm not forgetting him. My feeling is that, while he is competent defensively, it's Manning who's to praise for the success of the offense there---both in terms of calling the plays and executing them. Give Dungy a quarterback whose talents physically are equal but who lacks Manning's "football mind" and I think you'd find the Colts' situation substantially diminished.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I agree with those saying that Shanahan should remain as the head coach (he is still one of the top three in the league, when focusing on actual coaching), but have less say on personnel decisions. It isn't likely to happen, though.

 

[Pyramid Scheme]

The reasons Denver is bad this year are, in no particular order:

(1) They're net -1 per game in turnovers. This puts them on par with the Dolphins and the Raiders, and better than only the Bears and the Rams. They're 10th-worst in the league in interceptions per game, and 3rd-worst in fumbles per game.

(2) Opponents are converting 48% of third downs against the Broncos. That's worst in the league. Second-worst is the Dolphins (46%), followed by the Jets (45%).

(3) Opponents are averaging 162 rushing yards on 33 attempts per game, yielding almost 5 yards per attempt. Only the Raiders are worse. It's easy to see why stat (2) looks the way it does, no?

(4) Their offense is 8th in the league in first downs, 3rd in 3rd-down conversion rate, but 25th in scoring. Their red zone performance is very bad.

So, combine a defense that can't get off the field with a small-play offense that gives the ball away too much and can't get into the endzone, and I'd say you have a pretty clear recipe for a team under .500. Qualitatively, I'd say the run defense is the biggest problem, although red-zone offense is a close second.

 

[KoolKat]

I know that's the age-old question: who would Denver get to replace Shanahan? I think Denver needs to get a GM who can evaluate talent (see my long winded post a few minutes ago), and let him decide on a coach. I think some potential replacements could be: - Jason Garrett - O-Coordinator of the Cowboys - Josh McDaniels - O-Coordinator of the Pats - Marty Shottenheimer (I know that sounds goofy, but I think the ultimate irony would be to have him be the Broncos coach and lead the Broncos to a Super Bowl...plus the guy has proven he can coach defense and pick great pass rushers (Derrick Thomas and Shawn Merriman come immediately to mind)) - Norm ChowThere's also Cowher (I doubt he's going to coach next year), and some other assistants.The point is there are some potentially great coaches out there, and Denver can't be scared to let go of the current regime because the coach won a couple of Super Bowls 10 years ago.

Lifelong Bronco fan here, and I don't know the answer. 3 things in this post that I do know are wrong are, 1) Plummer is not better than Cutler. Besides Marino and Roethlisberger, not many QB's look very good their first year as a starter. Give the kid time before proclaiming hiom a bust. 2) Mike Bell is not better than Travis Henry. Travis has definately seen his share of trouble and injuries this year, but to say Mike Bell ios better is ludicrous. Mike Bell isn't even better than Tatum Bell, and believe me, there is no ploy here. The Broncos will either have Young, Hall, or someone else at RB next year, so the Bell vs Henry topic is irrelavant. 3) The Broncos didn't trade up to get Maurice Clarrett. I don't quite remember the details, but they ended up with an extra 3rd round pick that year and took a huge gamble in thinking that Maurice would straighten his act. I think it was a bad and stupid gamble, but at least Mike is willing to put his butt on the line and not always take the safe route. If that gamble would have worked, he'd be looked at as a genius.Like I said, I don't know the answers, but I know it is frustrating to watch a bad defense and special teams year after year. The O line is getting so old that they have almost missed the boat on grooming replacements. These old guys are getting hurt (Lepsis last year and Hamilton and Nalen this year) because they aren't what they used to be. The fact is, Bowlen believes in Shanahan and his job is safe for the forseeable future, so he better fix what is wrong. Who would you want to coach the Broncos anyway? Would Cowher want to take on this train wreck right now? He's about the only available coach I'd want over Shanahan right now. They can't be stupid like the Chargers last year and fire the coach just because. If they were going to fire Shanahan, thay should have done it a couple of years ago before Kubiak got away.

This is a rediculous claim. None of the guys mentioned comes anywhere enar Shanny's level. I mean you are erally stretching it when you throw ####tenheimer out there. The criticism of Shanahan is that he can't get it done in the postseason, so we bring in Marty?? CMON. That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. I would boycott the Broncos until Marty was fired if that happened. And who was the last hyped offensive coordinator to get a job? Ding Ding Ding, Cam Cameron, and he is doing such a wonderful job. Shanahan is one of the best coaches in NFL history. I challenge you to name who you think are the best coaches in NFL history, and I will compare Shanahan to them. Josh McDaniels? Ya the last OC from the highly touted Pats system was Charlie Weis, and he can't even win in college against Navy. One good year coordinating does not a quality coach make. Just look at Brian Billick.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

KC fan

I do not like Shanahan, but I think he is a very good coach.....he thinks very highly of himself and knows that he will not be fired......he answers questions with one word answers when somebody calls him out on something....he is great at dodging the tough questions.......

what I would like to know is how can a team play "as well" as they did against Pittsburgh and then as poorly as they did against Detroit........is Detroit that much better then Pitt.....40 points better..........I think they didn't show up to play against detroit and there is no reason for this when you make the millions these guys make......that never used to seem like the case before with the Broncos......but now it seems acceptable......Shanny is definately a little full of himself, and I think his schtick might be wearing a little thin on this group of guys......

Shanny is a great game day coach....used to be tough to predict......no so much anymore

I read somewhere and it was mentioned in the post above, that the Broncos have like the least amount of drafted players on their team then any team in the league.....it's hard to put peices together that fit every year.....I love seeing their struggles, but that is because I have seen this franchise kick some serious butt in the past.....plus it always seemed like they came out smelling like roses in every game....alwasy got the breaks....no so much anymore......

I think if Shanahan would spend a little less time in the tanning booth and a little more opening up the playbook, things could turn around.....

 

[Banger]

No.

 

[Ghost Rider]

The criticism of Shanahan is that he can't get it done in the postseason,

And that criticism is stupid. Shanahan has won two Super Bowls! How many other coaches can say that? And before anyone chimes in with, "how many playoff games has he won w/o Elway," answer these questions:How has Belichick done without Tom Brady?How did Bill Walsh do without Joe Montana?Yes, Shanahan has struggled in the postseason since Elway's retirement, but the lack of stability at the QB position is the main reason. Give him time to work with Cutler and we'll see how that goes. And, remember, Shanahan is the coach who got to the AFC title game with Jake Plummer as his QB. Think about that for a minute.

 

[SSOG]

I do agree that the loss of Wilson has really hurt the leadership on that defense. However, calling Shanahan one of the greatest coaches in history is a little off base. I think Shanahan, with his unlimited power over personnel decisions, has made a ton of extremely poor decisions in that department, both in the draft and free agency, during the past few seasons. Just to illustrate, let's look at the Broncos draft 4 and 5 years ago (it's too soon to say the last couple have been bad):2003 Draft1 - George Foster - Started for 2-3 seasons, no longer with the team2 - Terry Pierce - Never started a game, no longer with the team4 - Quentin Griffin - Started 4-5 games, no longer with the team4 - Nick Eason - I don't think he ever started a game - no longer with the team4 - Bryan McNeal - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team5 - Ben Claxton - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team5 - Adrian Madise - Never started a game, no longer with the team6 - Aaron Hunt - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team7 - Clint Mitchell - - I don't know if he ever made the team - no longer with the team8 - Ahmad Galloway - Never started a game2004 Draft1 - DJ Williams - Has been a starter, but is arguably one of the biggest dissapointments for the Broncos D this season2 - Tatum Bell - Started 1 season, no longer with the team2 - Darius Watts - Played for 1 - 1 1/2 seasons, no longer with the team3 - Jeremy LeSeur - Never started a game, no longer with the team5 - Jeff Shoate - Is still on the team...has received playing time due to injuries to Champ Bailey and Dre Bly6 - Triandos Luke - Never started a game, no longer with the team6 - Josh Sewell - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Matt Mauck - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Brandon Miree - Never started a game, no longer with the team7 - Bradlee Van Pelt - Never started a game, no longer with the teamTotal Players from these drafts still with the Broncos - 1 (DJ Williams)Total Pro Bowls from these players - 0Now, if you look at the Patriots draft from 2003 - 2004, they have the following starters on their team today:Ben WatsonVince WilforkTy WarrenEugene WilsonAsante SamuelDan KoppenThe Chargers have at least 4 starters, not even including Rivers, who they traded to get int he 2004 draft, or their kicker and punter, who were both drafted(Drayton Florence, Igor Olshansky, Shaun Phillips, Terrence Kiel)The Colts have yielded three huge difference makers from those drafts (Bob Sanders, Robert Mathis and Dallas Clark).That tells me that the Broncos have made poor personnel decisions on their drafts, which is very important due to the salary cap (the more hits you get on draft picks, the less you have to spend in free agency), and have won one playoff game since Elway retired. Why do we want to keep Shanahan?

Anyone who thinks we should fire Shanahan is foolish. What are our options if we fire him?? Bring in an unproven, hyped college coach, last two being Saban and Spurrier? Or bring in a coach that has already cycled through the system and failed? Shanahan is already one of the best coaches in NFL history. He has won the Super Bowl 2 of 12 years he has been in the league, and been in the playoffs 7 times. Cut the guy some slack, he's had two bad years in his career. Look at Bill Cowher and Jeff Fischer, those guys are proof you should stick with what you have. If we were to fire him, he would be hired before we found a replacement. Plenty of teams would love to have him. The Broncos are riddled with injuries. I think the loss of Al Wilson has been a HUGE and underestimated loss of not only talent but leadership. Denver fans love to get on our coaches as soon as they have a little trouble, but there is nobody better to have out there, especially with Kubiak taken.

It's a little unfair to evaluate Shanahan's personnel decisions by focusing solely on the draft. Shanahan has always followed a Washington-like model of roster development, relying very heavily on veteran free agents. Also, the vast majority of those draft picks you listed are second-day picks (14 second-day picks compared to 6 first-day picks). No wonder all of his picks are busting during that span- most of those picks are incredibly likely to fail in the first place. Of the first day picks, you have three legitimate busts (Watts, Pierce, LeSeur), two guys who netted value in return (Bell and Foster, who became Dre Bly), and D.J. Williams (who, despite his struggles, is still a very, very, very good football player).If you do want to look at Shanahan's lean years, you have to remember that he acquired Champ Bailey and John Engleberger through trades, John Lynch through free agency, and guys like Bertrand Berry off of the scrapheap. He had success with undrafted free agents or guys that no one wanted, guys like Lenny Walls, Kelly Herndon, and Nick Ferguson. He's also been kicking butt and taking names in recent drafts. 2005 netted Darrent Williams (RIP) and Dominique Foxworth, who are both starter-caliber CBs, as well as Chris Myers (a current starter). 2006 netted Jay Cutler (who looks like he's CLEARLY the best of the celebrated QB trio), Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil (who is a BEAST), and Chris Kuper- that's a class that we're going to look back at a couple years from now as an absolute HAUL.Shanahan's not the best GM in the league. He's not even in the top 5, and if he's in the top 10, it's toward the bottom. With that said, he's certainly above average. People always look at his drafts, but a GM's job is to assemble talent by any means necessary, and Denver has consistently fielded talented teams throughout Shanny's tenure, which means he must be doing something right.

[1] I'm sure someone out there will knee-jerk "what about Dungy," and no, I'm not forgetting him. My feeling is that, while he is competent defensively, it's Manning who's to praise for the success of the offense there---both in terms of calling the plays and executing them. Give Dungy a quarterback whose talents physically are equal but who lacks Manning's "football mind" and I think you'd find the Colts' situation substantially diminished.

Give Dungy a QB who isn't on par with Manning? What, you mean like Trent Dilfer, Shaun King, or Brad Johnson? Before Dungy went to Tampa Bay, they had two winning seasons in their 20 year history, and had topped 6 wins just ONCE since 1981 (a 7-win season the year before Dungy arrived). Dungy proceeded to post 4 winning seasons in 6 years at a 56.5% winning rate, including an NFCCG appearance, with those three notables as his QBs. Tampa also won a superbowl the year after he left- and given how colossally that franchise has collapsed, I think it's clear that that was much more Dungy's doing than Gruden's.

 

[KoolKat]

SSOG, you are the man. I think we are on the exact same wavelength as far as the Broncos. I would also add Bailey was a direct result of Shanahan drafting Portis with a late second round pick. To the other guy: really, the Colts wouldn't be as good without Manning, really? What a mind blowing revelation.

Edited to say the Bailey trade also ended up including T Bell which indirectly made it possible to acquire Bly.

 

[Sleeper 43]

Keep in mind we still haven't seen a 2nd year Cutler with Javon / Marshall and Sheffler all on the same field spreading it out.

Its should be pretty sweet IF it ever happens.

I traded Leinart for Cutler throughout the summer in various leagues and got smeared but it will all settle out soon enough.