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Should this be manslaughter? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gary Coal Man
- Start date
Zow
Footballguy
Did you guys discuss whether suicide could be codified as a crime? I recall learning that it could or is, but I don't know whether that's accurate.
Agree completely though that this isn't manslaughter.
Zow
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
We discussed that you could codify assisting or attempting, but that suicidd itself would be toothless because you can't prosecute a dead guy.
But...I don't see why you theoretically couldn't. It would (as I think you mentioned) open up solicitation if you induce it another to commit suicide.
Instinctive
Footballguy
An existing fiduciary duty definitely changes the situation somehow.
Criminally? Not sure.
Civilly? Absolutely. Malpractice, wrongful death, etc would all be fairly wide open.
Zow
Footballguy
I wholeheartedly agree that it shouldn't be manslaughter and shouldn't be penalized to the extent that manslaughter is and probably should have clarified that. it's certainly less culpable of an activity.
However, I don't think it's at all "misguided" though to try to criminalize communication suggesting or encouraging suicide as doing so provides a deterrent to such behavior. That in of itself is at least an accepted reason for criminalization of the activity. I could certainly see some arguments opposing, but if we can all agree that a particular behavior is 1) so detrimental that it outweighs any freedom interest; and 2) could be reasonably subject to deterrence if the behavior is criminalized - than I think the argument for criminalization is at least an argument to consider and by no means "misguided".
jonessed
Footballguy
I think suicide is such a personal decision that criminalizing speech that may or may not have influenced that decision is a stretch. Criminalizing speech in general requires a very high hurdle.That's aside from actually turning suicide into a crime. What's the punishment for a failed suicide?
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
I don't philosophically disagree with you, but realistically criminalizing speech is not that difficult. Speech can be criminalized if it is seriously disruptive. It can also be criminalized if it is meant to threaten or intimidate (fighting words). Speech encompasses the bulk of solicitation and conspiracy statutes/elements. Again, I'm philosophically in-line with your thinking, but the "very high hurdle" is more of a legal fiction.
As for punishment, if I were in the legislature/king of the world I'd write the punishment to be some low level crime with, ideally, no exposure to incarceration.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
Attempted murder would also fit that riddle. The perp's goal isn't to attempt murder. The perp's goal is murder and the perp either fails to kill the victim or the perp's murder plan is stopped after he has taken substantial steps toward completing his plan.I remember hearing a riddle that basically went, "What is the only crime where you can only be charged if you fail to commit the crime?" The answer being suicide. I have always assumed it was illegal.
Zow
Footballguy
So I just spent time I really don't have researching this in my state. Apparently, Arizona does not criminalize suicide and since they don't I don't think this girl could be charged in my state. The AZ manslaughter statute does specifically criminalize providing the physical means to another to commit suicide (so it appears that if someone were to give another a gun with the knowledge that the other person intended to use it to commit suicide then he or she could be charged and convicted of manslaughter), but given that it specifically requires the "physical" it looks like one could encourage others to kill themselves all he or she wants.
Of course, I would anticipate that to change once some atheist talks some impressionable Mormon girl into killing herself.
Of course, I would anticipate that to change once some atheist talks some impressionable Mormon girl into killing herself.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Isn't manslaughter in Massachusetts a common law crime still anyway?
Zow
Footballguy
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
What does she look like, that would help in my voting.
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Clifford
Footballguy
No but that only applies to manslaughter. If she can be charged with solicitation she should be as she is definitely guilty of that.
Depends. What if the doctor determined that the depression was so severe that it was untreatable and inevitable the person would eventually succeed? There's an ongoing debate about doctor assisted suicide for terminally ill patients. I don't see why this shouldn't fall into that category.
Zow
Footballguy
IIRC most states have statutes prohibiting doctor assisted suicides and those statutes have held up to constitutional challenges.
Ditka Butkus
Footballguy
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Oops, didn't see your post. Yeah this.I remember hearing a riddle that basically went, "What is the only crime where you can only be charged if you fail to commit the crime?" The answer being suicide. I have always assumed it was illegal.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
United States[SIZE=small][edit][/SIZE]
Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide.[29]By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be a felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[30] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.[citation needed] In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992)). As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person's family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[31] Some American legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, former President of theACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[32] Physician-assisted suicide is legal in some states.[33] For the terminally ill, it is legal in the state of Oregonunder the Oregon Death with Dignity Act. In Washington state, it became legal in 2009, when a law modeled after the Oregon act, the Washington Death with Dignity Act was passed. A patient must be diagnosed as having less than six months to live, be of sound mind, make a request orally and in writing, have it approved by two different doctors, then wait 15 days and make the request again. A doctor may prescribe a lethal dose of a medication but may not administer it.[34]
Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide.[29]By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be a felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[30] By the early 1990s only two states still listed suicide as a crime, and these have since removed that classification.[citation needed] In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992)). As a common law crime, suicide can bar recovery for the late suicidal person's family in a lawsuit unless the suicidal person can be proven to have been "of unsound mind." That is, the suicide must be proven to have been an involuntary act of the victim in order for the family to be awarded monetary damages by the court. This can occur when the family of the deceased sues the caregiver (perhaps a jail or hospital) for negligence in failing to provide appropriate care.[31] Some American legal scholars look at the issue as one of personal liberty. According to Nadine Strossen, former President of theACLU, "The idea of government making determinations about how you end your life, forcing you...could be considered cruel and unusual punishment in certain circumstances, and Justice Stevens in a very interesting opinion in a right-to-die [case] raised the analogy."[32] Physician-assisted suicide is legal in some states.[33] For the terminally ill, it is legal in the state of Oregonunder the Oregon Death with Dignity Act. In Washington state, it became legal in 2009, when a law modeled after the Oregon act, the Washington Death with Dignity Act was passed. A patient must be diagnosed as having less than six months to live, be of sound mind, make a request orally and in writing, have it approved by two different doctors, then wait 15 days and make the request again. A doctor may prescribe a lethal dose of a medication but may not administer it.[34]
Because I think that what most statutes focus on when they talk about assisting or encouraging suicide is the perp providing the victim the means to commit suicide. An act, not words. Think the old guy whose wife is riddled with cancer and he hands her enough pills to kill a horse and the bottle of scotch she uses to wash them down.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
It looks like MA just applies common law to assisted suicide: http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=5104
Contrast to MN, where a separate crime to encourage suicide: http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=5077
The Football Freak
Footballguy
There are legal arguments for terminal depression? And so there is no confusion of tone, I mean no snark. Also, if you don't mind answering, what is the legal definition of an act?Christo said:
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Zow
Footballguy
But states have generally codified preparatory/inchoate offenses that do criminalize things such as suggestion that could theoretically attach to any crime. Conspiracy, facilitation, solicitation, attempt all codify varying degrees of help in preparation of a crime or whatever and, when it comes to encouragement, that is potentially criminalized by a statute. So, if the state has some form of criminalization of suicide or attempting to commit suicide, I don't see what it couldn't be charged under the general solicitation statute (if the state has codified its statutes that way).
I'd agree that the state statutes specifically dealing with assisting suicide that I've seen contemplate more of an acts reus, but I don't think the analysis ends there.
An act is conduct or behavior. Speaking is an act. But the act of speaking is not what matters. It's the content of the speech that matters. The fact that this girl texted the guy (the act) is not what people are mad about. It's the content of the speech. If she'd texted him "Bring me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich" and he'd killed himself because he was out of peanut better and disappointing her was the straw that broke the camel's back he would still be dead because she texted him. But no one would be mad at her even if they knew it was the reason he killed himself. Because they'd just think he was off his rocker--which he was.
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