SI.com A. Perloff's opinion ... (1 Viewer)

[burd]

This guy makes a good point about great players being a result of the system. I mean, guys like Randal Cunningham and Jeff George flourished in Minn around the same time as CPepp. Daunte had some great years in Minn but is it possible that the system is a major reason for his success? I never thought so before, but it makes you think about how "great" Steve Young would've been if he stayed in Tampa.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/19833

I have a theory that will be put to the test this season: You can't trust any player's statistics from the 1998-2004 Vikings.

The Vikings' powerhouse offense produced career seasons for quarterbacks such as Randall Cunningham, Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper and helped receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss put up staggering numbers.

None of those players had any success after leaving Minnesota. The litmus test will be to see how Moss performs in New England, although his numbers will almost certainly suffer from the Patriots' offensive balance. But if he makes a handful of circus touchdown catches I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Moss is just adequate in New England and Culpepper has trouble regaining a starting job, this group of ex-Vikes will be strong proof of the theory that it's the system more than the players in today's NFL. Something to consider when evaluating Carter's Hall of Fame chances, although the sure-handed and fiercely competitive receiver seems like a lock for Canton.

Of course, I always argue that it's the system more than the players, and most people usually disagree with me. I just think it's too big a coincidence that the greatest quarterback and greatest wide receiver in league history happen to have played in San Francisco at the same time. Same can be said for the current version of the Colts.

It will be interesting to see how my theory plays out in 2007 when Moss gets a new start and Culpepper lands as a backup somewhere. If they're reunited in Honolulu for the Pro Bowl, maybe I'll reconsider.

 

[delusional]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that

Cunningham was always a good player.

Some systems do make players though

 

[burd]

if the system can make a QB seem great, can it work the other way too with a potentially great QB being shortchanged because he's on a team w/ a lousy system? I heard Manning's father was a very good QB that was on a lousy Saints team. Seems like a player in this type situation could've had a completely different career had he played for a different team.

 

[rct]

I never thought so before, but it makes you think about how "great" Steve Young would've been if he stayed in Tampa.

As great as Archie Manning was with the Saints. The Bucs of that era were such a horrible team no QB could have succeeded, no matter how talented he was.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

This guy makes a good point about great players being a result of the system. I mean, guys like Randal Cunningham and Jeff George flourished in Minn around the same time as CPepp. Daunte had some great years in Minn but is it possible that the system is a major reason for his success? I never thought so before, but it makes you think about how "great" Steve Young would've been if he stayed in Tampa.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/19833

I have a theory that will be put to the test this season: You can't trust any player's statistics from the 1998-2004 Vikings.

The Vikings' powerhouse offense produced career seasons for quarterbacks such as Randall Cunningham, Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper and helped receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss put up staggering numbers.

None of those players had any success after leaving Minnesota. The litmus test will be to see how Moss performs in New England, although his numbers will almost certainly suffer from the Patriots' offensive balance. But if he makes a handful of circus touchdown catches I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Moss is just adequate in New England and Culpepper has trouble regaining a starting job, this group of ex-Vikes will be strong proof of the theory that it's the system more than the players in today's NFL. Something to consider when evaluating Carter's Hall of Fame chances, although the sure-handed and fiercely competitive receiver seems like a lock for Canton.

Of course, I always argue that it's the system more than the players, and most people usually disagree with me. I just think it's too big a coincidence that the greatest quarterback and greatest wide receiver in league history happen to have played in San Francisco at the same time. Same can be said for the current version of the Colts.

It will be interesting to see how my theory plays out in 2007 when Moss gets a new start and Culpepper lands as a backup somewhere. If they're reunited in Honolulu for the Pro Bowl, maybe I'll reconsider.

So Randy Moss was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Daunte Culpepper was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Whose system? Denny Green's? Scott Linehan's? Mike Tice's? Oh the system that made Tavaris Jackson and Brad Johnson mega stars and that stud Troy fricken' Williamson? The Linehan offensive system that made Miami a scoring machine? Denny Green's system that made him a God in Zona, right?Moss got older and became a gimp puppy his last few seasons in Minnesota. He goes to Oakland and loses C-Pep and had the worst offensive line in the league, no running game to speak of, and Walters as his QB in Oakland. He was and still is a prima donna head case and now is older and not what he was in his prime but can still turn in on when he wants to.

Culpepper had three knee ligaments that were not torn to shreds. He had, Randy Moss, Matt Birk, AND Scott Linehan. He lost, Linehan, Birk, Moss, and then had a rookie WR in Troy fricken' Williamson shoved down his throat. For anyone who doesn't know, and apparently their are MANY who haven't got a clue, Troy-Boi got his pathetic butt benched and the replacement for Birk finally got his act together by the time Brad Johnson took over so Brad baby DID NOT have the same offensive line or WRs that Daunte had at the start of the year when Duante got injured. ALSO the big story that was not reported on enough was the reason why Duante was soo pissed off at the Viking front office/ownership. The Love Boat incident

Only TWO PLAYERS where named and were set up for prosecution, ONLY TWO of the ENTIRE Viking team. Both oddly enough were BLACK! The captian of the Love boat, who was WHITE and who witnesses said was suckling the nipples of strippers while he piloted the boat WAS NOT INDITED for ANYTHING. The manager of the strippers who is WHITE and was present on the Love Boat and who was openly groping and suckling the nipples of strippers and who encouraged others to do the same was not indited for ANYTHING! The prosecutor of the county where the infamous Love Boating took place has a consticuency that is 97% WHITE. Only, Daunte Culpepper - the most visible player on the team and a HUGE BLACK MAN and offensive left tackle Bryant McKinnie the BIGGEST BLACK MAN and most easily recognizeable player in a crowd at 6'8 and over 300 lbs were fingered out of the ENTIRE VIKING TEAM and had their faces plastered in EVERY NEWSPAPER accross the country. The OWNER of the Vikings and new head coach didn't back Culpepper but hinted he was guilty of the crimes the prosecuting attorney had accused them of. Daunte was reportedly playing a board game but had reportedly patted the ### of one of the strippers. OH MY GOD SOMEONE SEND THAT MAN TO JAIL AND PLASER HIS NAME ACCROSS EVERY NEWPAPER IN THE COUNTRY HE PATTED THE ### OF A STRIPPER, sheeshusfluckingcrimeny. The Prosecutor had to drop his flimsy case because people began asking hard questions about who hired the strippes and then he began to file yet another indictment on another BLACK player who actually flew the strippers up from Florida and who charterd the boat but he was not originally named. Only Culpepper and McKinnie where originally charged, two big black men and the most easily recognizable players on the team.

The Viking players were, rude/crude/disgusting. I'm sure no one on these boards has ever been to a strip bar or heaven's forbid, patted the ### of any woman but I am not giving them a chit for the things that reportedly happened on the Love Boat. The Vikings not only reportedly behaved inexcusably on the boat but a pack of them stopped off the side of the road and en-mass urinated in the front yard of someone and drove off laughing and yucking it up so I don't excuse or apologize for their baudy behavior but to ONLY point out C-Pep and McKinnie and to NOT site the WHITE captian of the Love Boat or the WHITE Manager, who were not high profile local celebrities and who would NOT help to make a name for an aggressive PUNK prosecuting attorney like the POS in Minnesota, is a vomitous morass of injustice.

Look at what happened on the Love Boat. Look how the Viking ownership and front office treated Culpepper like a criminal even without knowing the facts. Look at how Brad Childress treated Culpeper when he got hired the first thing he did was pull Duante aside and tell him that he was NOT going to keep the Viking offensive system but that Daunte was going to have to turn into a West Coast QB. Brilliant move eh? Also the owner of the Vikings was trying to sell the team and was not putting any money into the team. He was such a cheapskate that he REFUSED to gaurantee Matt Birk's contract in case of injury for the year so Matt had surgery that placed him on IR that year instead of playing thru the injury that year. That money saving decision hurt Culpper along with Moss and Lineahan. To ONLY SAY it was the system is absurd.

Three shredded knee ligements is the major reason the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB PASSER IN NFL HISTORY isn't the player he was a few years ago. The Viking system hasn't made Tavaris Jackson the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB IN NFL HISTORY and it didn't help Linehan make his Miami QBs any better when he was the OC the first year of Saban's riegn of mediocrity. Also Randy Moss was NOT the same player the last couple of years in Minnesota playing in the exact same system.

This myth is officially BUSTED!

 

[burd]

maybe it's not the case in every situation, but there are instances where players vastly improve or fail when they go to other teams. Off the top of my head, Kurt Warner dissappointed in NY after being huge in StL, Bledsoe in Buff. On the other hand, Favre was a completely better player when he went from the Falcons to GB, Steve Young already mentioned.

So there are instances where a system can make or break a player .. it's not always about 'dem ligaments.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

maybe it's not the case in every situation, but there are instances where players vastly improve or fail when they go to other teams. Off the top of my head, Kurt Warner dissappointed in NY after being huge in StL, Bledsoe in Buff. On the other hand, Favre was a completely better player when he went from the Falcons to GB, Steve Young already mentioned.So there are instances where a system can make or break a player .. it's not always about 'dem ligaments.

I don't deny systems have a bearing on production but so does the individual talent that a player brings to the table along with his supporting cast and the most important part of the systems argument is coaching.If you note Martz, he is the ONLY OC/HC in NFL history to take two waiver wire reject QB and turn them into Pro Bowlers in a three year time span. Ofcourse both of those QBs had, Ike Bruce, Torry Holt, Orlando Pace, Marshall Faulk/Stephen Jackson, to help them along as well as Martz's system. So its not like the system was more valuable then the supporting cast or in that instance the coaching Mike Martz of his system.

 

[Slider]

It's an old concept but it's great. WCO's in the early times (before it was part of most O's) turned out great players that were average other places.

Look at the WR's and QB in Carolina under Seifert. Buerlein and a bunch of castoffs at WR connected for 4300 yards.

Rice would ONLY play for a WCO. Favre, Young, Montana, Gannon and a host of others had their best years in a WCO.

The Broncos lined up an undrafted Rod Smith and a Giants castoff to form a fantasic duo.

Manning is in the same Moore system that had Scott Mitchell throwing for 4000+ and all their WR's looking like studs.

There is absolutely no doubt the system makes the player better.

Great players will be great anywhere but average players can look great in a great system.

If Marino was in a WCO with the D he had he would have 5 rings.

 

[burd]

maybe it's not the case in every situation, but there are instances where players vastly improve or fail when they go to other teams. Off the top of my head, Kurt Warner dissappointed in NY after being huge in StL, Bledsoe in Buff. On the other hand, Favre was a completely better player when he went from the Falcons to GB, Steve Young already mentioned.So there are instances where a system can make or break a player .. it's not always about 'dem ligaments.

I don't deny systems have a bearing on production but so does the individual talent that a player brings to the table along with his supporting cast and the most important part of the systems argument is coaching.If you note Martz, he is the ONLY OC/HC in NFL history to take two waiver wire reject QB and turn them into Pro Bowlers in a three year time span. Ofcourse both of those QBs had, Ike Bruce, Torry Holt, Orlando Pace, Marshall Faulk/Stephen Jackson, to help them along as well as Martz's system. So its not like the system was more valuable then the supporting cast or in that instance the coaching Mike Martz of his system.

i agree. i'm not saying that the system is responsible for players like Warner & Green becoming Pro-Bowlers. what i'm saying is that individual talent can only take you so far in a team sport like football. Intangibles like the quality of teammates, the quality of the competiton ... and the system all affect how well a player will perform. If talent didn't matter, guys like Heath Shuler and Marinovich would still be playing. I'm sure there are instances where a player excelled moreso because of the system than his own talent. I think that's what Perloff is trying to insinuate .... i think because CPepp and Moss were so successful in Minn and not so at their subsequent teams, he's trying to draw the conclusion that the system was the result of their success. I don't agree in the case of Minn, but I would tend to believe that there have been instances where a player was awesome for one team, but completely exposed on another team. The only example I can think (and it's not a great example either) is a journeyman QB like Chris Chandler of the Falcons. Here is a guy that bounced around to a bunch of teams, but ends up taking the Falcons to the SB and making the Pro-Bowl in '99. Is this a case where he always had the talent of a great QB, or was he in a system that allowed him to perform at a level that he normally couldn't play? I'd tend to believe he thrived because of the system .. what do yo think?

 

[SSOG]

Question: If there's an offensive system capable of making mediocre players great and turning any offense into a juggernaut... then why isn't every team in the league running it?

I mean, look at the WCO. That was an amazing offensive system, and it definitely made the players in it look better than they were because it was so far ahead of its time. And what happened? Within a decade, over half the teams in the league were running some sort of WCO, and the remaining teams were all integrating it and adding a lot more slants to their playbook.

So, if the Minny Vikings offensive system was that good, was so good that it could turn average players into HoFers and finish in the top 5 six times in seven years despite only so-so offensive talent, then why isn't every single team in the entire league rushing to copy it? I mean, hell, if I was a team with a mediocre QB and mediocre WRs, I'd fire my OC immediately and hire someone to implement a system that would make me a top-5 offense with no regard to talent! So why isn't everyone running a modified version of the "Minnesota Offense"?

I'll tell you why- it's the same reason why the rest of the league isn't running the "Greatest Show On Turf"- because the offense was successful because of the supremely talented players in it, not because of some magical scheme that made everyone look so much better than they really were. Daunte Culpepper and Randy Moss are studs, just like Holt/Bruce/Faulk were studs.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

It's an old concept but it's great. WCO's in the early times (before it was part of most O's) turned out great players that were average other places.Look at the WR's and QB in Carolina under Seifert. Buerlein and a bunch of castoffs at WR connected for 4300 yards.Rice would ONLY play for a WCO. Favre, Young, Montana, Gannon and a host of others had their best years in a WCO.The Broncos lined up an undrafted Rod Smith and a Giants castoff to form a fantasic duo.Manning is in the same Moore system that had Scott Mitchell throwing for 4000+ and all their WR's looking like studs.There is absolutely no doubt the system makes the player better. Great players will be great anywhere but average players can look great in a great system. If Marino was in a WCO with the D he had he would have 5 rings.

If system takes precidence over talent then Martz would have had the Lions as a top scoring team last year. He would have made Kitna a Pro Bowl QB. He would have turned Mike Williams from a lazy layabout into a Pro Bowl WR, he would have turned Kevin Jones into a Marshall Faulk clone. A great system can turn mediocre talent in highly productive players but great talent will show itself. See Marshall Faulk. He was a great talent with the Colts but wasn't used as effectively as Martz did in his system. Marshall went from a talented player into a league MVP and two time Super Bowl starting talent. Point is the Colt system didn't utilize all of the skills of Faulk and the Martz system did. HOF talent like Jerry Rice or Joe Montanna both were successful after they left SF but were both older and not in their prime, see Culpepper/Moss. It is disenginous to say the system is the reason for their success because EVERY TEAM has an offensive system but not all are highly productive or get the most of talented players. A combination of a great system taught by great coaching with talented players makes the most succesful systems. I think what the author wants to say is.Mediocre talent that has niched out skill at key/critical areas can be maximized by a system to make them highly productive. I agree with that statement.For instance the most important skills recquired of QBs in Martz's system is the ability to get the ball off quick and/or hang in the pocket and take a hit because in that system their was/is minimal blocking so skill players can run routes. The QB is not responsible for making pre-snap reads ALA Peyton Manning. Looking at the Colt system the obvious question would be if their success was due primarily to the system then would the Colts be as effective without Peyton Manning? Other QBs with incredible idividual physical talent like a Vince Young have shown that individual talent is tough to defend. No one denies indidual talent and no one is denying that a great system can make talented players like a Marshall Faulk into a league MVP type of players or a less tauted talent into a highly producitve talent but to try and turn that around to say an injured Daunte Culpepper or an older gimpy Randy Moss's later career struggles are primarily due from being separated from the Viking system is simply untrue. To look at late career injury/age issues and place blame on missing a successful system is simply false because it gives too much credit to the system and not enough to the reasons why a system is successful in the first place. A great system is part of a reason why a team/indidividual player is highly productive but highly talented players help make a productive system effective in the first place.

 

[nygiants56]

Chris Carter shouldn't have been mentioned. He would have been the same GREAT player, on any other team.the guy was tremendous.

and when he went to Miami, he was 37, so you really can't use his numbers from 2002.

other than that, the guy was awesome.

 

[nygiants56]

and, no one has mentioned it yet, but a huge reason why Moss was so successful in Minny, was due to the carpet and playing indoors most of the time.

he was lightning quick in that dome. and he would've been the same player in Indy, or St Louis or N.O. before they all converted to field turf..

the system didn't create Randy Moss, his overwhelming talent did. same with Carter. same with Robert Smith, Moe Williams, Cunningham. if Culpepper didn't blow three ligaments, and if the front office didn't trade away

Randy Moss, BOTH would be LOCKS for the hall of fame , regardless of head coach. those guys were on the same page like Montana and Rice were....

anyone who thinks Cunningham was a product of the 'viking's system', didn't see him play in Philly against the Giants, when NY was beating opponents' doors off in the late '80s..Cunningham was probably the MOST feared QB the Giants faced. they couldn't stop the guy, he was a thorn in their side, for YEARS!

this whole thread is as ridiculous as saying Elway was just a product of playing in the `Denver system`..

 

[switz]

This guy makes a good point about great players being a result of the system. I mean, guys like Randal Cunningham and Jeff George flourished in Minn around the same time as CPepp. Daunte had some great years in Minn but is it possible that the system is a major reason for his success? I never thought so before, but it makes you think about how "great" Steve Young would've been if he stayed in Tampa.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/19833

I have a theory that will be put to the test this season: You can't trust any player's statistics from the 1998-2004 Vikings.

The Vikings' powerhouse offense produced career seasons for quarterbacks such as Randall Cunningham, Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper and helped receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss put up staggering numbers.

None of those players had any success after leaving Minnesota. The litmus test will be to see how Moss performs in New England, although his numbers will almost certainly suffer from the Patriots' offensive balance. But if he makes a handful of circus touchdown catches I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Moss is just adequate in New England and Culpepper has trouble regaining a starting job, this group of ex-Vikes will be strong proof of the theory that it's the system more than the players in today's NFL. Something to consider when evaluating Carter's Hall of Fame chances, although the sure-handed and fiercely competitive receiver seems like a lock for Canton.

Of course, I always argue that it's the system more than the players, and most people usually disagree with me. I just think it's too big a coincidence that the greatest quarterback and greatest wide receiver in league history happen to have played in San Francisco at the same time. Same can be said for the current version of the Colts.

It will be interesting to see how my theory plays out in 2007 when Moss gets a new start and Culpepper lands as a backup somewhere. If they're reunited in Honolulu for the Pro Bowl, maybe I'll reconsider.

So Randy Moss was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Daunte Culpepper was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Whose system? Denny Green's? Scott Linehan's? Mike Tice's? Oh the system that made Tavaris Jackson and Brad Johnson mega stars and that stud Troy fricken' Williamson? The Linehan offensive system that made Miami a scoring machine? Denny Green's system that made him a God in Zona, right?Moss got older and became a gimp puppy his last few seasons in Minnesota. He goes to Oakland and loses C-Pep and had the worst offensive line in the league, no running game to speak of, and Walters as his QB in Oakland. He was and still is a prima donna head case and now is older and not what he was in his prime but can still turn in on when he wants to.

Culpepper had three knee ligaments that were not torn to shreds. He had, Randy Moss, Matt Birk, AND Scott Linehan. He lost, Linehan, Birk, Moss, and then had a rookie WR in Troy fricken' Williamson shoved down his throat. For anyone who doesn't know, and apparently their are MANY who haven't got a clue, Troy-Boi got his pathetic butt benched and the replacement for Birk finally got his act together by the time Brad Johnson took over so Brad baby DID NOT have the same offensive line or WRs that Daunte had at the start of the year when Duante got injured. ALSO the big story that was not reported on enough was the reason why Duante was soo pissed off at the Viking front office/ownership. The Love Boat incident

Only TWO PLAYERS where named and were set up for prosecution, ONLY TWO of the ENTIRE Viking team. Both oddly enough were BLACK! The captian of the Love boat, who was WHITE and who witnesses said was suckling the nipples of strippers while he piloted the boat WAS NOT INDITED for ANYTHING. The manager of the strippers who is WHITE and was present on the Love Boat and who was openly groping and suckling the nipples of strippers and who encouraged others to do the same was not indited for ANYTHING! The prosecutor of the county where the infamous Love Boating took place has a consticuency that is 97% WHITE. Only, Daunte Culpepper - the most visible player on the team and a HUGE BLACK MAN and offensive left tackle Bryant McKinnie the BIGGEST BLACK MAN and most easily recognizeable player in a crowd at 6'8 and over 300 lbs were fingered out of the ENTIRE VIKING TEAM and had their faces plastered in EVERY NEWSPAPER accross the country. The OWNER of the Vikings and new head coach didn't back Culpepper but hinted he was guilty of the crimes the prosecuting attorney had accused them of. Daunte was reportedly playing a board game but had reportedly patted the ### of one of the strippers. OH MY GOD SOMEONE SEND THAT MAN TO JAIL AND PLASER HIS NAME ACCROSS EVERY NEWPAPER IN THE COUNTRY HE PATTED THE ### OF A STRIPPER, sheeshusfluckingcrimeny. The Prosecutor had to drop his flimsy case because people began asking hard questions about who hired the strippes and then he began to file yet another indictment on another BLACK player who actually flew the strippers up from Florida and who charterd the boat but he was not originally named. Only Culpepper and McKinnie where originally charged, two big black men and the most easily recognizable players on the team.

The Viking players were, rude/crude/disgusting. I'm sure no one on these boards has ever been to a strip bar or heaven's forbid, patted the ### of any woman but I am not giving them a chit for the things that reportedly happened on the Love Boat. The Vikings not only reportedly behaved inexcusably on the boat but a pack of them stopped off the side of the road and en-mass urinated in the front yard of someone and drove off laughing and yucking it up so I don't excuse or apologize for their baudy behavior but to ONLY point out C-Pep and McKinnie and to NOT site the WHITE captian of the Love Boat or the WHITE Manager, who were not high profile local celebrities and who would NOT help to make a name for an aggressive PUNK prosecuting attorney like the POS in Minnesota, is a vomitous morass of injustice.

Look at what happened on the Love Boat. Look how the Viking ownership and front office treated Culpepper like a criminal even without knowing the facts. Look at how Brad Childress treated Culpeper when he got hired the first thing he did was pull Duante aside and tell him that he was NOT going to keep the Viking offensive system but that Daunte was going to have to turn into a West Coast QB. Brilliant move eh? Also the owner of the Vikings was trying to sell the team and was not putting any money into the team. He was such a cheapskate that he REFUSED to gaurantee Matt Birk's contract in case of injury for the year so Matt had surgery that placed him on IR that year instead of playing thru the injury that year. That money saving decision hurt Culpper along with Moss and Lineahan. To ONLY SAY it was the system is absurd.

Three shredded knee ligements is the major reason the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB PASSER IN NFL HISTORY isn't the player he was a few years ago. The Viking system hasn't made Tavaris Jackson the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB IN NFL HISTORY and it didn't help Linehan make his Miami QBs any better when he was the OC the first year of Saban's riegn of mediocrity. Also Randy Moss was NOT the same player the last couple of years in Minnesota playing in the exact same system.

This myth is officially BUSTED!

IOW DC stinks because he was on a boat. DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

This guy makes a good point about great players being a result of the system. I mean, guys like Randal Cunningham and Jeff George flourished in Minn around the same time as CPepp. Daunte had some great years in Minn but is it possible that the system is a major reason for his success? I never thought so before, but it makes you think about how "great" Steve Young would've been if he stayed in Tampa.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/19833

I have a theory that will be put to the test this season: You can't trust any player's statistics from the 1998-2004 Vikings.

The Vikings' powerhouse offense produced career seasons for quarterbacks such as Randall Cunningham, Jeff George and Daunte Culpepper and helped receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss put up staggering numbers.

None of those players had any success after leaving Minnesota. The litmus test will be to see how Moss performs in New England, although his numbers will almost certainly suffer from the Patriots' offensive balance. But if he makes a handful of circus touchdown catches I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

If Moss is just adequate in New England and Culpepper has trouble regaining a starting job, this group of ex-Vikes will be strong proof of the theory that it's the system more than the players in today's NFL. Something to consider when evaluating Carter's Hall of Fame chances, although the sure-handed and fiercely competitive receiver seems like a lock for Canton.

Of course, I always argue that it's the system more than the players, and most people usually disagree with me. I just think it's too big a coincidence that the greatest quarterback and greatest wide receiver in league history happen to have played in San Francisco at the same time. Same can be said for the current version of the Colts.

It will be interesting to see how my theory plays out in 2007 when Moss gets a new start and Culpepper lands as a backup somewhere. If they're reunited in Honolulu for the Pro Bowl, maybe I'll reconsider.

So Randy Moss was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Daunte Culpepper was nothing but a product of the Viking system. Whose system? Denny Green's? Scott Linehan's? Mike Tice's? Oh the system that made Tavaris Jackson and Brad Johnson mega stars and that stud Troy fricken' Williamson? The Linehan offensive system that made Miami a scoring machine? Denny Green's system that made him a God in Zona, right?Moss got older and became a gimp puppy his last few seasons in Minnesota. He goes to Oakland and loses C-Pep and had the worst offensive line in the league, no running game to speak of, and Walters as his QB in Oakland. He was and still is a prima donna head case and now is older and not what he was in his prime but can still turn in on when he wants to.

Culpepper had three knee ligaments that were not torn to shreds. He had, Randy Moss, Matt Birk, AND Scott Linehan. He lost, Linehan, Birk, Moss, and then had a rookie WR in Troy fricken' Williamson shoved down his throat. For anyone who doesn't know, and apparently their are MANY who haven't got a clue, Troy-Boi got his pathetic butt benched and the replacement for Birk finally got his act together by the time Brad Johnson took over so Brad baby DID NOT have the same offensive line or WRs that Daunte had at the start of the year when Duante got injured. ALSO the big story that was not reported on enough was the reason why Duante was soo pissed off at the Viking front office/ownership. The Love Boat incident

Only TWO PLAYERS where named and were set up for prosecution, ONLY TWO of the ENTIRE Viking team. Both oddly enough were BLACK! The captian of the Love boat, who was WHITE and who witnesses said was suckling the nipples of strippers while he piloted the boat WAS NOT INDITED for ANYTHING. The manager of the strippers who is WHITE and was present on the Love Boat and who was openly groping and suckling the nipples of strippers and who encouraged others to do the same was not indited for ANYTHING! The prosecutor of the county where the infamous Love Boating took place has a consticuency that is 97% WHITE. Only, Daunte Culpepper - the most visible player on the team and a HUGE BLACK MAN and offensive left tackle Bryant McKinnie the BIGGEST BLACK MAN and most easily recognizeable player in a crowd at 6'8 and over 300 lbs were fingered out of the ENTIRE VIKING TEAM and had their faces plastered in EVERY NEWSPAPER accross the country. The OWNER of the Vikings and new head coach didn't back Culpepper but hinted he was guilty of the crimes the prosecuting attorney had accused them of. Daunte was reportedly playing a board game but had reportedly patted the ### of one of the strippers. OH MY GOD SOMEONE SEND THAT MAN TO JAIL AND PLASER HIS NAME ACCROSS EVERY NEWPAPER IN THE COUNTRY HE PATTED THE ### OF A STRIPPER, sheeshusfluckingcrimeny. The Prosecutor had to drop his flimsy case because people began asking hard questions about who hired the strippes and then he began to file yet another indictment on another BLACK player who actually flew the strippers up from Florida and who charterd the boat but he was not originally named. Only Culpepper and McKinnie where originally charged, two big black men and the most easily recognizable players on the team.

The Viking players were, rude/crude/disgusting. I'm sure no one on these boards has ever been to a strip bar or heaven's forbid, patted the ### of any woman but I am not giving them a chit for the things that reportedly happened on the Love Boat. The Vikings not only reportedly behaved inexcusably on the boat but a pack of them stopped off the side of the road and en-mass urinated in the front yard of someone and drove off laughing and yucking it up so I don't excuse or apologize for their baudy behavior but to ONLY point out C-Pep and McKinnie and to NOT site the WHITE captian of the Love Boat or the WHITE Manager, who were not high profile local celebrities and who would NOT help to make a name for an aggressive PUNK prosecuting attorney like the POS in Minnesota, is a vomitous morass of injustice.

Look at what happened on the Love Boat. Look how the Viking ownership and front office treated Culpepper like a criminal even without knowing the facts. Look at how Brad Childress treated Culpeper when he got hired the first thing he did was pull Duante aside and tell him that he was NOT going to keep the Viking offensive system but that Daunte was going to have to turn into a West Coast QB. Brilliant move eh? Also the owner of the Vikings was trying to sell the team and was not putting any money into the team. He was such a cheapskate that he REFUSED to gaurantee Matt Birk's contract in case of injury for the year so Matt had surgery that placed him on IR that year instead of playing thru the injury that year. That money saving decision hurt Culpper along with Moss and Lineahan. To ONLY SAY it was the system is absurd.

Three shredded knee ligements is the major reason the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB PASSER IN NFL HISTORY isn't the player he was a few years ago. The Viking system hasn't made Tavaris Jackson the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB IN NFL HISTORY and it didn't help Linehan make his Miami QBs any better when he was the OC the first year of Saban's riegn of mediocrity. Also Randy Moss was NOT the same player the last couple of years in Minnesota playing in the exact same system.

This myth is officially BUSTED!

IOW DC stinks because he was on a boat. DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

I don't know if you are being facetious or not. The point brought up about the Love Boat was Culpepper was unfairly singled out of the crowd.

The SIXTH highest QB passer rating in NFL history is not average by any stretch of the imagination or is it a product of a system or Randy Moss. Daunte Culpepper is NOT average at best.

 

[zed2283]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it yet... but what about the "genius" who created it all, Brian Billick? His Ravens offenses sure haven't lit anything on fire.

 

[CalBear]

Winning is not a sometime thing. You don't win once-in-a-while. You don't do things right once-in-a-while. You do them right all the time.

Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

(Vince Lombardi)The issue really isn't so much about "the system;" the issue is that successful organizations tend to remain successful, and failing organizations tend to keep failing, unless acted upon by an outside force. When you have a team where everyone is working to promote team goals, where there is good communication and hard work, where everyone understands his role, it is much easier for everyone to succeed. The prime recent example is the Niners during the Super Bowl years. Those five Super Bowl teams had two different coaches, two different QBs, two different leading WRs, three different leading RBs, and a host of changes everywhere else on the team. The 1981 team had Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, Ricky Patton, and Dwight Clark; the 1989 team had George Seifert, Steve Young, Roger Craig, and Jerry Rice. This team is viewed as a dynasty, but really there's almost no continuity along the 15 years of their run. Even the 1984 team was radically different than the 1989 team. What worked was not "the system", but the organization; they made good choices in who to bring in, got people who fit not only in terms of football but in terms of personality, and managed to plug and play at almost every position while winning 5 Super Bowls. They were greater than the sum of their parts, even though some of their parts were among the best ever to play. They were a winning organization.

Now, the Minnesota teams Moss and Culpepper played on aren't at the same level as the Super Bowl Niners, particularly on defense. But in terms of offense, Minnesota ranked in the top 12 for 11 years straight from 1994-2004, and in the top five for 8 of those 11 years. Once again: two different coaches, five different QBs, five different RBs, four different WRs. That unit just understood that they made each other good, brought on new players and got them working together. Remember how much crap Mike Tice took about the "Randy Ratio"? Minnesota had the #1 offense that year and Culpepper had almost 4500 yards.

I think the Vikings offense just clicked together and became more than the sum of its parts. Culpepper can be an impressive QB, Moss can be incredible at WR, but both of them succeeded without the other on that team (and neither has succeeded since). You can't attribute Moss' success to Culpepper any more than you can attribute Culpepper's success to Moss, or either of their successes to Mike Tice or Denny Green. It was a team, it worked, it broke up (partly because of Moss' personality), and now it's less than it was. Sort of like the Beatles.

 

[SSOG]

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

Above average QBs have played with better WRs than Moss and not even come close to what Culpepper did. Calling Culpepper an "average QB" is ludicrous.

 

[shamrock84]

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

Above average QBs have played with better WRs than Moss and not even come close to what Culpepper did. Calling Culpepper an "average QB" is ludicrous.

This entire thread is ludicrous.

 

[kensat30]

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

Above average QBs have played with better WRs than Moss and not even come close to what Culpepper did. Calling Culpepper an "average QB" is ludicrous.

This entire thread is ludicrous.

I disagree. There were no better WRs than Moss during his days in Minnesota. All Culpepper had to do was get the ball within a 5 yard radius of Moss and he made a play on it. Not only that, but Moss's mere presence on the field opened things up for every other player just because of the unique types of coverage he was drawing. That is a lethal combination. Weak coverage on any guy not named Moss, and a guy named Moss who is catching everything left and right, 50 yards or 5 yards, no matter what kind of coverage they threw at him.Moss was so good, people still draft him in the 3rd round based on things he was doing on the field 4+ seasons ago.

 

[SSOG]

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

Above average QBs have played with better WRs than Moss and not even come close to what Culpepper did. Calling Culpepper an "average QB" is ludicrous.

This entire thread is ludicrous.

I disagree. There were no better WRs than Moss during his days in Minnesota. All Culpepper had to do was get the ball within a 5 yard radius of Moss and he made a play on it. Not only that, but Moss's mere presence on the field opened things up for every other player just because of the unique types of coverage he was drawing. That is a lethal combination. Weak coverage on any guy not named Moss, and a guy named Moss who is catching everything left and right, 50 yards or 5 yards, no matter what kind of coverage they threw at him.Moss was so good, people still draft him in the 3rd round based on things he was doing on the field 4+ seasons ago.

Moss was an absolute stud, no question. The thing is, was Randy Moss better than Jerry Rice in his prime? Because Joe Montana and Steve Young never touched the numbers that Culpepper put up. Was Randy Moss better than Lance Alworth in his prime? Because even if you pro-rate and adjust for the climate of the day, John Hadl never touched the kinds of season that Culpepper had (and Hadl was a 6-time pro-bowler, so again, I'd call him "above average").Randy Moss is not the first dominant WR the league has ever seen- there have been HALL OF FAME quarterbacks playing with some of the greatest, most dominant WRs in the entire history of the NFL, surrounded by pro bowl RBs and OLs and often with a second great WR to throw to... and none of them produced like Daunte Culpepper produced.Suggesting that Randy Moss was so much better than Jerry Rice in his prime that he could make an average QB look better than a HoFer is absurd. If Daunte Culpepper was really just an average QB, he never, ever, ever would have produced like that in a million years. Suggesting that Culpepper was mediocre basically means that you're saying that Randy Moss is so much better than any WR who has ever played the game of football that he could produce one of the best QB seasons in the history of the game from a below-average QB with no surrounding talent... all in a season WHERE HE WAS INJURED AND ONLY HAD EIGHT HUNDRED YARDS RECEIVING. Was Randy Moss really that much better than Jerry Rice, than Bambi, than Don Hutson, than Terrell Owens, than Marvin Harrison?As I said, to claim that Culpepper is merely an average QB (or worse) is simply ludicrous. There is no way an "average" QB could have ever done what Daunte Culpepper did from 2000 to 2004.

 

[jzygmunt]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that.

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

I rarely post here. But this idea that Moss somehow made Culpepper what he was is always something that has bothered me. I present to you weeks 8 - 11, 2004:

October 31st vs New York (Giants):

Culpepper: 24/41 231yds 1td 2int

TD thrown to: Burleson

Moss leaves at half without a catch.

November 8th AT Indy:

Culpepper: 16/19 169yds 1td

TD thrown to: Burleson

Moss never touched the field.

November 14th, AT Green Bay:

Culpepper: 27/44 363yds 4tds 0ints

TDs thrown to: Burleson, Wiggins, Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith

Moss never touched the field.

November 21st vs Detroit:

Culepper: 22/32 233yds 2td 1int

TDs thrown to: Burleson, Wiggins

Moss never touched the field.

Thats an entire month without 'the wideout that made him who he was.' It's a small sample size sure, but Moss was on the field for nearly all of his career with Minny.

Note the accuracy in Moss' absence. Note the TD distribution. This was also during a year in which the Minnesota starting runningback(s) were Mike Bennett, Onterrio Smith, and Moe Williams.

It's mental folks.

 

[redman]

The offensive system that Dennis Green ran in Minnesota was based primarily upon Joe Gibbs' one-back system. The reason why the hypothesis of this article is interesting to me is because Dennis Green managed to squeeze production, sometimes startlingly good production, out of QB's like a Sean Salisbury, a young Brad Johnson, an aging Warren Moon, a recently retired Randall Cunningham, and even Daunte Culpepper who nobody seems to regard as being all that good.

What it reminds me of is that Gibbs got some great production out of Jay Schroeder, and won his three Super Bowls with Theismann, Williams and Rypien. Gibbs' system is supposed to be QB friendly by maximizing opportunities for big plays while minimizing INT's. It relies upon play-action passing and a solid running game.

Someone asked why, if it was so good, we haven't seen more of it around the league. I've often wondered the same thing, but its primary competitor was the WCO which became all the rage by the late 1980's when SF won their third and fourth SB's, and just before Gibbs retired. The thing I've always found ironic is that Gibbs' system tended to get great production out of average QB's in the passing game, while the WCO demands IMHO a good QB to be run successfully.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

The offensive system that Dennis Green ran in Minnesota was based primarily upon Joe Gibbs' one-back system. The reason why the hypothesis of this article is interesting to me is because Dennis Green managed to squeeze production, sometimes startlingly good production, out of QB's like a Sean Salisbury, a young Brad Johnson, an aging Warren Moon, a recently retired Randall Cunningham, and even Daunte Culpepper who nobody seems to regard as being all that good.

What it reminds me of is that Gibbs got some great production out of Jay Schroeder, and won his three Super Bowls with Theismann, Williams and Rypien. Gibbs' system is supposed to be QB friendly by maximizing opportunities for big plays while minimizing INT's. It relies upon play-action passing and a solid running game.

Someone asked why, if it was so good, we haven't seen more of it around the league. I've often wondered the same thing, but its primary competitor was the WCO which became all the rage by the late 1980's when SF won their third and fourth SB's, and just before Gibbs retired. The thing I've always found ironic is that Gibbs' system tended to get great production out of average QB's in the passing game, while the WCO demands IMHO a good QB to be run successfully.

Gibbs had a system andhe also had talented players to run his system.Joe Gibbs Head Coach 1981-92

3 Mark Moseley K 1974-86

29 Mark Murphy S 1977-84

21 Mike Nelms KR 1980-84

74 George Starke T 1973-84

7 Joe Theismann QB 1974-85

25 Joe Washington RB 1981-84

53 Jeff Bostic C 1980-93

68 Russ Grimm G 1981-91

66 Joe Jacoby T/G 1981-93

79 Jim Lachey T 1988-95

73 Mark May T 1981-89

63 Raleigh McKenzie G 1985-94

76 Ed Simmons T 1987-93

85 Don Warren TE 1979-92

84 Gary Clark WR 1985-92

81 Art Monk WR 1980-93

83 Ricky Sanders WR 1986-93

21 Earnest Byner RB 1989-93

11 Mark Rypien QB 1987-93

17 Doug Williams QB 1986-89

65 Dave Butz DT 1975-88

51 Monte Coleman LB 1979-94

28 Darrell Green CB 1983-2002

52 Neal Olkewicz LB 1979-89

72 Dexter Manley DE 1981-89

71 Charles Mann DE 1983-93

58 Wilbur Marshall LB 1988-92

Of the list of the 70 greatest Washington Redskins, 26 played in the 11 season that Gibbs coached. All three of his QBs made the list. SEVEN offensive linemen made the list. Gibbs was the first to use 300'+ offensive linemen so he had a physical competative advantage over competition. The rest of the NFL caught up eventually. So it wasn't just a system, it was good players and he had a competative advantage over the rest of the league physically so he could run counter treys all day and wear down the opposition and put his QBs in good situations to win. Take away those SEVEN offensive linemen who provided that competative advantage and his system isn't all that great. For proof just look at his last three years in Washington where he holds no such physical competative advantage. He didn't turn Mark Brunnell into a better QB and Jason Cambell looks about just like every rookie QB, not overly impressive.

I challenge the Gibbs/system as the primary reason for Washington's success in the eighties because it is pretty obvious that the Hogs and the physical competative advantage they provided were the main reason for Washington's success. Gibbs has his system now but the rest of the NFL has evolved to the point that he holds no physical advantage any longer and his system has proven it brings no advantage without the physical overmatching of his opponent with a much larger offensive line.

For the Daunte is nothing without Randy Moss argument.

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

So I want the Randy Moss pimps to explain why his (sic) 'great skills' didn't magically carry the entire team's offense? Explain why, if Daunte Culpepper's success has to be foisted entirely on Randy Moss' shoulders, why Duante Culepper had his second worst QB passer rating of his career when the RANDY RATIO was installed? And why did Randy Moss have his worst season season scoring TDs when coupled with Daunte Culpepper in an offense built around his GREAT SKILLS?

Then explain the following.

Randy Moss' production went from 1,632 yards in 2003 (the year after the RANDY RATIO) plummetted to 767 yards and 13 TDs in 2004 in terms of the Daunte Culpepper's stats which did not mirror the GREAT RANDY MOSS but went the exact opposite direction of Randy's numbers.

Daunte Culpepper had his BEST season of his career destroying his 2003 numbers where he completed 65.0% of his passes for 3,479 yards for a 7.7 average per reception and 25 TDs with 11 INTs for a QB passer rating of 96.4 in 2003.

The year that Randy got gimped up and THE GREAT RANDY MOSS' receiving yardage got chopped in HALF, Daunte BLEW UP with the SINGLE BEST combined yardage season by a QB in NFL history.

2004 Min completes 69.2% for 4,717 yards for a 8.6 yards per completion and throws 39 TDs with only 11 INTs for a QB passer rating of 110.9

Was that because of Randy Moss?

Randy Moss is a great WR who helped to spread the field when he was in his prime AND motivated and wasn't a pectulant child. Duante Culpper is the sixth highest rated QB in NFL history because he has proven himself. His entire career wasn't built on Randy Moss' skills. Daunte shattered the NCAA ALL-TIME completion record that Steve Young held for 17 years before he set foot on an NFL field without the GREAT RANDY MOSS. Randy didn't help out the Oakland QBs do anything and he proved an offense can be built around him. If anything Moss has shown he can't put up big numbers without solid QB play and Culpepper has proven that when he's healthy and has blocking that he is one of the best NFL QBs in the game and that is why he currently ranks number six on the ALL-TIME NFL QB passer rating list.

 

[fsufan]

Moss made culpepper. Simple as thatCunningham was always a good player. Some systems do make players though

please tell me what Moss did the 2 years in Oakland without Culpepper

 

[CalBear]

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

The offense was #1 in the league that year.

 

[burd]

The major flaw with this article is that it's impossible to evaluate whether CPepp benefitted from having Moss and being part of the system in Minn, because we haven't seen enough of him outside of Minn to judge. The few games he did play in Miami, he was still bothered by the knee, so it's unfair to say that his success in Minn was an isolated incident. I'd like to see more of him before I'd make a decision.

It's a reality that CPepp ... or any other player will play better under one system vs. another. Every player has their own individual comfort level and what they like and don't like. Some players (Brees?) can adapt and be successfull in more than one system, while others need all the stars aligned to be successful (Chandler).

Personally, I think CPepp is a good QB, just not as good as his Minn stats would lead one to believe. I mean, he was putting up Peyton-type numbers in Minn and I don't think there are many people out there that would say that CPepp is on the same level as Peyton.

 

[switz]

Three shredded knee ligements is the major reason the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB PASSER IN NFL HISTORY isn't the player he was a few years ago. The Viking system hasn't made Tavaris Jackson the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB IN NFL HISTORY and it didn't help Linehan make his Miami QBs any better when he was the OC the first year of Saban's riegn of mediocrity. Also Randy Moss was NOT the same player the last couple of years in Minnesota playing in the exact same system.This myth is officially BUSTED!

IOW DC stinks because he was on a boat. DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

I don't know if you are being facetious or not. The point brought up about the Love Boat was Culpepper was unfairly singled out of the crowd.The SIXTH highest QB passer rating in NFL history is not average by any stretch of the imagination or is it a product of a system or Randy Moss. Daunte Culpepper is NOT average at best.

Kurt Warner anyone???? Yes a system can make an average player look amazing, and having one of the most talented ever WRs can make a QB look great, and having two HOF caliber WRs can make a QB look amazing.All of the above happened to Warner and DC. And when they went to other clubs, their true colors showed through.

 

[switz]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that.

DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

I rarely post here. But this idea that Moss somehow made Culpepper what he was is always something that has bothered me. I present to you weeks 8 - 11, 2004:

October 31st vs New York (Giants):

Culpepper: 24/41 231yds 1td 2int

TD thrown to: Burleson

Moss leaves at half without a catch.

November 8th AT Indy:

Culpepper: 16/19 169yds 1td

TD thrown to: Burleson

Moss never touched the field.

November 14th, AT Green Bay:

Culpepper: 27/44 363yds 4tds 0ints

TDs thrown to: Burleson, Wiggins, Moe Williams, Onterrio Smith

Moss never touched the field.

November 21st vs Detroit:

Culepper: 22/32 233yds 2td 1int

TDs thrown to: Burleson, Wiggins

Moss never touched the field.

Thats an entire month without 'the wideout that made him who he was.' It's a small sample size sure, but Moss was on the field for nearly all of his career with Minny.

Note the accuracy in Moss' absence. Note the TD distribution. This was also during a year in which the Minnesota starting runningback(s) were Mike Bennett, Onterrio Smith, and Moe Williams.

It's mental folks.

Wow, he had one good game without Moss. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[switz]

Moss made culpepper. Simple as thatCunningham was always a good player. Some systems do make players though

please tell me what Moss did the 2 years in Oakland without Culpepper

Please tell me when he was healthy in Oakland.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

The offense was #1 in the league that year.

Ahhh that explains why they kept that offense the next year and also explains why Daunte's AND Randy's numbers both went down right?

 

[AnonymousBob]

I think it's a combination of the two. Would Montana have been as legendary had he been on another team? I doubt it. Moss of his early days likely would not have been the monster he was if he had been playing in a different system.

To have an absolutely great career or single season, I believe you need to have BOTH gobs of talent and be in the right system.

 

[CalBear]

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

The offense was #1 in the league that year.

Ahhh that explains why they kept that offense the next year and also explains why Daunte's AND Randy's numbers both went down right?

In 2002, the year of the Randy Ratio, Minnesota's offense improved from #12 in yardage and #24 in scoring the year before, to #1 in yardage and #9 in scoring. Moss caught more passes and gained more yardage than the year before. Culpepper had almost 4500 total yards, second best in his career behind his amazing 2004 season. There is no possible way to spin the 2002 offense as a "miserable failure". Stop digging.

 

[jurb26]

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

The offense was #1 in the league that year.

Ahhh that explains why they kept that offense the next year and also explains why Daunte's AND Randy's numbers both went down right?

In 2002, the year of the Randy Ratio, Minnesota's offense improved from #12 in yardage and #24 in scoring the year before, to #1 in yardage and #9 in scoring. Moss caught more passes and gained more yardage than the year before. Culpepper had almost 4500 total yards, second best in his career behind his amazing 2004 season. There is no possible way to spin the 2002 offense as a "miserable failure". Stop digging.

I find it a bit more entertaining to watch haters dig holes they can't cover up.Yes, Moss in his prime was the most dominant WR to ever play. Simple as that.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Three shredded knee ligements is the major reason the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB PASSER IN NFL HISTORY isn't the player he was a few years ago. The Viking system hasn't made Tavaris Jackson the SIXTH HIGHEST RATED QB IN NFL HISTORY and it didn't help Linehan make his Miami QBs any better when he was the OC the first year of Saban's riegn of mediocrity. Also Randy Moss was NOT the same player the last couple of years in Minnesota playing in the exact same system.This myth is officially BUSTED!

IOW DC stinks because he was on a boat. DC was a product of the system, and throwing to a healthy Moss. Moss is a great WR that makes QBs look good when healthy. DC is an average QB at best.

I don't know if you are being facetious or not. The point brought up about the Love Boat was Culpepper was unfairly singled out of the crowd.The SIXTH highest QB passer rating in NFL history is not average by any stretch of the imagination or is it a product of a system or Randy Moss. Daunte Culpepper is NOT average at best.

Kurt Warner anyone???? Yes a system can make an average player look amazing, and having one of the most talented ever WRs can make a QB look great, and having two HOF caliber WRs can make a QB look amazing.All of the above happened to Warner and DC. And when they went to other clubs, their true colors showed through.

Kurt Warner? You mean to say a free agent former grocery store bag boy and area league QB who was developed in a strong QB developmental system and who continued to be an effective NFL starting QB for two teams after he was developed and left the system just as Trent Green was developed under Martz and went onto be an effective NFL starting QB and just as Marc Bulger was developed under Martz and continues to be an effective starting NFL QB without Martz is an effective argument against Daunte Culpepper who was a first round draft pick and who came into the league with the best combination of armstrength and physique the league had seen since Elway and who had set the all time NCAA completion percentage record. Culpepper came in with better skills and wasn't a grocery store bag boy who lucked into a system run by the only OC/HC in NFL history to take two QBs off the waiver wire and turn them into Pro Bowlers and in casae you missed it, Warner got injured before he left St. Louis but was still an effective starting QB as was Green after being developed under Martz, as was Bulger so it appears the system wasn't as important as the coaching in all THREE instances and none of those work as an arguement of showing QB FAILING after leaving a system because it was about DEVELOPING QB skills, it wasn't about QBs failing after leaving a system. Per supporting cast used against Culpepper, funny how that arugment isn't a one-way street because in case you missed it, DAUNTE CULPEPPER was part of the supporting cast. If Culpepper only had one good game without Moss then where did the other yards from Culpepper's NFL single season history making yardage year? Does Moss magically get credit for the FOUR THOUSAND PASSING YARDS and FOUR HUNDRED RUSHING yards that Culpepper had? Or does Culpepper not get credit for those yards because they don't support this anti-Culpepper rant? And when you called out the other poster and noted that Randy Moss had three shredded knee ligaments in Oakland and was rushed back to start because the Raiders had traded for him and had no one else to start and where it was obvious he was/is still to this day injured? Oh wait a minute, my bad. That is Duante Culpepper. He obviously is still injured and may never be the same but you want to rip into him for his play last year when he was not healthy but you want to try and defend Randy Moss in Oakland because he wasn't hurt nearly as bad as having three shredded knee ligaments correct?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Could the Randy Moss pimps to explain why the infamous RANDY RATIO didn't work? An entire offense was built around getting the ball into the hands of Randy Moss and it FAILED MISERABLY!

The offense was #1 in the league that year.

Ahhh that explains why they kept that offense the next year and also explains why Daunte's AND Randy's numbers both went down right?

In 2002, the year of the Randy Ratio, Minnesota's offense improved from #12 in yardage and #24 in scoring the year before, to #1 in yardage and #9 in scoring. Moss caught more passes and gained more yardage than the year before. Culpepper had almost 4500 total yards, second best in his career behind his amazing 2004 season. There is no possible way to spin the 2002 offense as a "miserable failure". Stop digging.

Their is no way to deny the Randy Ratio was a success, you're six feet under.The Randy Ratio W/L record of the Vikings in 20022002 6 10 0 .375

 

[Assani Fisher]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that

Funny that I was saying this for years and everybody called me an idiot for it.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...=203385&hl=

 

[CalBear]

Their is no way to deny the Randy Ratio was a success, you're six feet under.The Randy Ratio W/L record of the Vikings in 20022002 6 10 0 .375

The Vikings offense in 2002: #1 in yardage, #9 in scoring.The Vikings defense in 2002: #26 in yardage, #30 in scoring.

 

[CalBear]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that

Funny that I was saying this for years and everybody called me an idiot for it.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...=203385&hl=

That's not why we called you an idiot.

 

[SSOG]

Moss made culpepper.

Simple as that

Funny that I was saying this for years and everybody called me an idiot for it.http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...=203385&hl=

I don't think you're an idiot, because I don't know you, but I still think that's an idiotic stance. HoF QBs have played with better WRs than Randy Moss, with better O-Lines, smarter coaches, and more revolutionary offenses... and none of them can even touch the numbers that Culpepper put up. C'Pep couldn't have done that if he were an "average QB at best". It just simply couldn't happen, or else it would have happened several times before.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Their is no way to deny the Randy Ratio was a success, you're six feet under.The Randy Ratio W/L record of the Vikings in 20022002 6 10 0 .375

The Vikings offense in 2002: #1 in yardage, #9 in scoring.The Vikings defense in 2002: #26 in yardage, #30 in scoring.

2002 #1 in yardage and #9 in scoring and finished 6-10 with the Randy Ratio2003 #1 in yardage and #6 in scoring but finished 9-7 without the Randy Ratio.I'm not sure what effect Randy Moss has on defense but they finished 25th in points allowed on defense the year after the Randy Ratio.I have no truck with Randy Moss or Moss pimps and I never questioned Randy's talent but I tire of talk that Culepper would have been nothing without Randy Moss. Culpepper has proven himself as has Moss. Neither of them has been successful away from Minnesota but neither of them are in their physical prime and Culpepper is obviously is injured and may never regain his form. Culpepper was more than a conduit for the talents of Moss but Moss was an established veteran early in C-Pep's career and Randy had the pull to make the coaching staff build an offense designed to funnel him a certain ratio of touches. That fiasco didn't help the team to win games nor did it help develop a young Culpepper so my original disagreement with the author of the SI blog, Perlough(sp?) in arguing some system in Minnesota is the reason that BOTH C-Pep and Moss failed away from Minnesota is flawed. Both were talents in their own right. How this devolved into a Culpepper sucks/Moss rules thread is beyond me but I have said my peace.

 

[SSOG]

I think the biggest difference between 2002 and 2003 wasn't the yardage or the scoring... it was the turnovers. The only time in C'Pep's time with Moss that he had an upside-down TD:INT ratio was 2002, mostly the result of that stupid "Randy Ratio". The yards and scoring might have looked fine in 2002, but the Randy Ratio resulted in a ton of turnovers, since everyone knew where the ball was going.

With that said, I think this is a pretty big tangent. I mean, is there anyone here who argues that Randy Moss was absolutely dominant in Minny? Is there anyone that argues that Culpepper's numbers were absolutely otherworldly? I don't get what the Randy Ratio really has to do with anything here.

 

[CalBear]

Their is no way to deny the Randy Ratio was a success, you're six feet under.The Randy Ratio W/L record of the Vikings in 20022002 6 10 0 .375

The Vikings offense in 2002: #1 in yardage, #9 in scoring.The Vikings defense in 2002: #26 in yardage, #30 in scoring.

2002 #1 in yardage and #9 in scoring and finished 6-10 with the Randy Ratio2003 #1 in yardage and #6 in scoring but finished 9-7 without the Randy Ratio.

2001, #12 in yardage and #24 in scoring, before the Randy Ratio. When a team improves its record, improved its offensive scoring and was #1 in the league in offensive yardage, it is simply stupid to call the offensive scheme a failure.Oh, and by the way, Randy Moss had even more receptions in 2003 than he did in 2002. The Randy Ratio was just as much in force in 2003, they just didn't talk about it.