Simone Biles Withdraws From Competition - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[woodstock]

he didn’t call her a hero for dropping out of the Olympics. He called her a hero for all of the other things discussed at length in his post.

So we're quibbling about whether one has called the action "heroic" or has labeled her a "hero" then? Seems somewhat inextricable. So we separate out the otherwise non-criticizable part of her actions to come up with her as a hero? Something doesn't compute there. 

Or maybe we're just having a ####ton of trouble defining what a real hero is and when heroism applies to one's actions. An act of heroism is apparently separated from the hero, how, and the hero from his or her actions in other endeavors? Only in modernity is that the case, and maybe I agree with antiquity. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I think I second flapgreen about it, and that typing even just this and editing my original thoughts has sort of been a too-long exercise for the subject matter. The entirety of this is overblown, IMO. 

I’m not sure that’s accurate.

 

[woodstock]

I’m not sure that’s accurate.

About how I feel about what Biles did? Sure I did. flapgreen and Ramsay said it all. About how I feel about this thread? Guess I didn't even get started, did I? 

 

[bigbottom]

So we're quibbling about whether one has called the action "heroic" or has labeled her a "hero" then? Seems somewhat inextricable. So we separate out the otherwise non-criticizable part of her actions to come up with her as a hero? Something doesn't compute there. 

Or maybe we're just having a ####ton of trouble defining what a real hero is. 

Exactly. It’s almost precisely the point you are trying to make. People are taking issue with others calling her dropping out of the Olympics a heroic act, when relatively few people (and no one in this thread that I recall) are using that word to describe her dropping out. That’s why it’s largely a straw man, particularly in the context of this thread.  Similarly, to your point, relatively few people are saying she sucks or is an embarrassment, etc., particularly in the context of this thread, so making a big deal about those who hold that position is also largely a strawman, as people like the Texas Deputy Attorney General I quoted in this thread are very much in the minority.

 

[bigbottom]

Honestly, I think the view of nearly everyone in this thread are pretty aligned actually. People largely understand why she made the decision she did and don’t begrudge her for it. And they agree, for better or worse, that this decision will be a part of the narrative of her career.

 

[woodstock]

Exactly. 

I edited my post to reflect my disagreement with separating the two out. I'm not sure the two are separable, the heroic and the hero, but I guess agreeing to disagree is the best course here because the main point is not propping up straw men to knock them down, which I find going on so often in threads like these, from the PSF to the FFA. That's the real takeaway, IMO. If it takes the fine distinction between heroic acts and heroes, then so be it. 

 

[bigbottom]

I edited my post to reflect my disagreement with separating the two out. I'm not sure the two are separable, the heroic and the hero, but I guess agreeing to disagree is the best course here because the main point is not propping up straw men to knock them down, which I find going on so often in threads like these, from the PSF to the FFA. That's the real takeaway, IMO. If it takes the fine distinction between heroic acts and heroes, then so be it. 

Of course the two are separable. Just because you’re a hero for your accomplishments doesn’t mean that every subsequent act or decision you make is heroic.

 

[woodstock]

Of course the two are separable. Just because you’re a hero for your accomplishments doesn’t mean that every subsequent act or decision you make is heroic.

They're separable if you're a modern, not so much in antiquity. Heroes were heroes and did heroic things. Their actions weren't compartmentalized like they are today. We see that as natural; I'm not so sure the ancients did. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

That's what everybody is saying for sure. Is this the straw man that stirs the hallucinatory drinks? 

Think a lot of people are just saying she's not a hero for doing this. I don't know. Hero seems like a strong word when juxtaposed against something like, well...

Normandy? 

I mean, for heck's sake. 

I remember Bob Costas had a good line about this subject after 9/11. I'm paraphrasing, but basically, it's OK to say the firefighters who ran into the Towers were heroes while also saying Michael Jordan is your hero because he was such a great basketball player. The word can encompass two different things.

 

[Jayrok]

I suppose I have a little criticism to go with a lot of praise.  She's great and I've always loved to watch her perform.  I'm disappointed in that I was looking forward to seeing her in action but I'm not upset at her for her decision.  

I just wonder what was it that caused this at this time, as opposed to all her past events.  I get the pressure, feeling like everyone expects perfection. Did she see this coming?  How long has she felt this way?  

I agree that mental health is a real thing and a real problem.  It always has been and it's good that these days it's being talked about more and more.  My question is, does she have underlying issues that causes her stress or is it just performance anxiety in these particular Olympics? Is she in her own head because she doesn't want to stumble... fall... is she afraid to fail? Is she afraid to let others down or afraid she won't live up to expectations? 

Or does she have other issues that will follow her in the next phase of life once her performance years are behind her?  If this is the case, I hope and I'm confident that she'll get the support and love she needs through family, fans, friends, therapy, medication, etc... to get back to a normal, healthy life. 

I don't consider her a villain or a hero in this situation.  She's human.  I support her in her decision and I'm pulling hard for Jade and Sunisa Lee. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

My 12 year old daughter has been dancing ballet for over ten years. En pointe (that means she dances on her tippy toes, fellas) for 18 months, in a preprofessional troupes for the last five years. Not an Olympic athlete, but she is performing at a high level, dances six days a week, has a private coach in addition to her troupe teacher, and will become a professional within five years.

I don’t care if people wanna argue semantics about heroic/heroine. I can tell you with 100% confidence Simone Biles is a great role model. We have long stressed to her the importance of listening to what her body is telling her (ballet can be a brutal discipline.)

She is a heroine in our house just for this instance but also the way she has owned the narrative about the sexual abuse. My first and most important job is to keep her safe. Public figures like Simone are massively important to people like my daughter.

 

[Sinn Fein]

American gymnast Sunisa Lee has won gold in the women's all-around.

 

[GoBirds]

Suni Lee….boom! Pumped for her, what a story. 

 

[bigbottom]

SPOILERS!!!  
 

J/K - There was no way I was going to make it through the day without hearing about it. 

 

[AAABatteries]

SPOILERS!!!  
 

J/K - There was no way I was going to make it through the day without hearing about it. 

I spoilered mine in the main thread - Sinn is just a jerk   
 

ETA - are spoiler tags working now?  They were broken for months 

 

[Sinn Fein]

SPOILERS!!!  
 

J/K - There was no way I was going to make it through the day without hearing about it. 

Spoiler

sorry

 

[Rich Conway]

Interesting that Joe moved it here b/c it wasn't political, but 0 surprise that the responses are almost 100% predictable based on posts in the PSF.  

Sigh. My worry too. That's where some people would rather take it I guess.

I'm a bit confused by this post.  I've seen almost no one try to make this topic left/right or political.  @KarmaPolice made an observation that the reactions posted thus far could have been predicted pretty well simply by knowing the poster's PSF history.  After 6 pages of posts, I think that observation is pretty accurate.  It's not political, but it does seem to indicate something about the worldview of different groups of people.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm a bit confused by this post.  I've seen almost no one try to make this topic left/right or political.  @KarmaPolice made an observation that the reactions posted thus far could have been predicted pretty well simply by knowing the poster's PSF history.  After 6 pages of posts, I think that observation is pretty accurate.  It's not political, but it does seem to indicate something about the worldview of different groups of people.

I hid a post where I responded to that, and tried to make a similar point, but you said it better - especially the bolded.    

 

[Tom Skerritt]

American gymnast Sunisa Lee has won gold in the women's all-around.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

American gymnast Sunisa Lee has won gold in the women's all-around.

Gee thanks

what the #### man

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm a bit confused by this post.  I've seen almost no one try to make this topic left/right or political.  @KarmaPolice made an observation that the reactions posted thus far could have been predicted pretty well simply by knowing the poster's PSF history.  After 6 pages of posts, I think that observation is pretty accurate.  It's not political, but it does seem to indicate something about the worldview of different groups of people.

That was in response when it started to go towards a Ben Shapiro direction. All good. 

Overall, this was an excellent thread with good discussion. Exactly what I was hoping for. 

 

[GoBirds]

I hid a post where I responded to that, and tried to make a similar point, but you said it better - especially the bolded.    

ETA:  the cherry on top is the GB cry emoji responses.   

Let’s try to keep your drama in the PSF is all, not a good look in here. We appreciate it. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I hid a post where I responded to that, and tried to make a similar point, but you said it better - especially the bolded.    

ETA:  the cherry on top is the GB cry emoji responses.   

Let's leave off the shots on the GB cry emojis. Thanks. Whatever that is. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Let's leave off the shots on the GB cry emojis. Thanks. Whatever that is. 

Fair enough.  I believe you know what that is, but I will edit that part out.    

 

[Joe Bryant]

Fair enough.  I believe you know what that is, but I will edit that part out.    

I don't have time to play games and say things I don't mean. I don't know what it is. If I did, I wouldn't write I didn't. I can guess it's the typical little slap fight jab that ruins threads. Let's not do that. 

 

[sho nuff]

I'm fine. She can do what she wants.

However, I'm not "praising" her for the decision. If you're going to slap a GOAT on your uniform, then being mentally tough comes with being the GOAT. This Olympics she did not live up to her self hype. She didn't even finish.

Perhaps the mentally tough thing to do was to pull out...before she hurt herself physically and hurt her team worse.

I think we need to start looking inward as people to what being mentally tough really means.  IMO, it doesn't mean suck it up and do what people expect you should do anyway.  Whether you are a GOAT or not.

Why I think its praiseworthy of her...it was probably the harder decision to make.  To pull out there vs. just try to tough it out as she has probably done in the past.  I think she made what was the tougher decision...especially knowing the criticism she would get.

 

[KarmaPolice]

End of the day I think there are certain words that bog people down and grind their gears a bit - "hero/heroic" seems to be one of those, and it tends to derail discussions.    Not the word I would use for sure, but I tend to not throw that around too much either.    Her resume speaks for itself as far as how tough physically and mentally she is, and I think it's hard enough for average citizen to talk about things that she might be dealing with, let somebody with the heat and spotlight she has on her.   Good role model for people to look up to, IMO.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

To me it feels like we haven't learned enough from what NFL players have done to themselves and their families by embracing that "wipe it off and and get back out there" mentality.   How many time did we tell players that after taking a shot to the head (and I guess still do to a point)?   I think people underestimate the difficulty and danger of these events, and how this could effect the rest of her life.   

 

[GoBirds]

Seems like a positive all around with the support Biles received along with an opportunity for her teammate to step up and shine which she did. Very impressive. 

 

[bigbottom]

Seems like a positive all around with the support Biles received along with an opportunity for her teammate to step up and shine which she did. Very impressive. 

Agree with this 100%

 

[Stinkin Ref]

This is sort of where I'm at.  Does this type of stuff start spilling over into our working lives?  I run a small business and have 10 employees.  I've worked with, trained them and paid them pretty well for multiple years.  

If I need one of them has to make a huge presentation and I give them all the proper tools and resources to nail this presentation then they freak out and leave during their introductions...I think I'm going to be kinda pissed.   But would I, as the owner, be at fault for putting too much pressure on this employee?  It feels like that's where we're headed.  Their freak is now my fault.  

She just cracked under pressure.  Plain and simple.   It happens, she shouldn't be overly criticized for that, but quitting on your team and yourself just doesn't seem like a hero move to me.  

We're just soft now.  Maybe its a better mindset going forward, but quitting in the big moments is something I have to get used too.  

Its awesome people are bringing the mental health issues forward.  It certainly needs to be addressed, but we need to figure out how to become mentally tougher.  

kind of glad to see you post this....while this kinda new "mental health awareness" thing is awesome and maybe long overdue....as with anything there will be some people that will now take advantage of it, when it really isn't the underlying issue....and if you say anything about it or call them out.....you will be considered insensitive and a jerk.....it will become a fall back excuse that some use and will be very hard to question in a politically correct way....

 

[GroveDiesel]

If anyone is wondering why Biles may have cracked now, this article shines some light.

Apparently just 2 weeks ago there was a bunch more info that came out regarding USAG’s role in the Nasser travesty. Including one of the officials attending publicity events with Biles and having her attend his kid’s birthday party while at the same time making arrangements with the FBI to bury the investigation into Nasser.

So just 2 weeks ago Biles found out just how far the US Olympic officials went in enabling her abuser. People she knew. People who were friendly towards her. People whose kid’s party she made an appearance at. They were smiling and escorting her around while at the same time conspiring with the FBI to make sure her abuser wasn’t caught. And while I’m not sure of the exact timing, it seems very possible that Biles was actually sexually abused AFTER that happened. Which means that her abuse could have been prevented if the USAG officials had reported Nasser or informed her. Instead, they covered for him and allowed him to remain in his position.

Biles found this out 2 weeks ago. So for those of you asking why she would crack now, that seems like a pretty good reason to not be in the right headspace.

 

[HarryKane09]

They're separable if you're a modern, not so much in antiquity. Heroes were heroes and did heroic things. Their actions weren't compartmentalized like they are today. We see that as natural; I'm not so sure the ancients did. 

I would like to take this opportunity to assert that I am NOT a time traveler from the age of antiquity, so the mindset of the ancients shouldn’t apply to what I said.

 

[Gally]

 

She’s dominated gymnastics for the past eight years, which is  an eternity in that sport. This is like if Brady hadn’t been able to complete last year’s Super Bowl or Jordan had pulled out of the ‘98 Finals. Her legacy as the GOAT is secure

This is such a bad post.

When you think of Michael Jordan, what  do you remember him more for?  The years he was out of the league playing baseball, or do you think of him as one of the GOAT's?  

Fair or not the fact of the matter is that gymnastics for most people is a once in a four years event so for the majority of people Biles will only be remembered for this.  Brady, Jordan, etc are much different in the minds of most people and that is why those footnotes are just that....footnotes.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

If anyone is wondering why Biles may have cracked now, this article shines some light.

Apparently just 2 weeks ago there was a bunch more info that came out regarding USAG’s role in the Nasser travesty. Including one of the officials attending publicity events with Biles and having her attend his kid’s birthday party while at the same time making arrangements with the FBI to bury the investigation into Nasser.

So just 2 weeks ago Biles found out just how far the US Olympic officials went in enabling her abuser. People she knew. People who were friendly towards her. People whose kid’s party she made an appearance at. They were smiling and escorting her around while at the same time conspiring with the FBI to make sure her abuser wasn’t caught. And while I’m not sure of the exact timing, it seems very possible that Biles was actually sexually abused AFTER that happened. Which means that her abuse could have been prevented if the USAG officials had reported Nasser or informed her. Instead, they covered for him and allowed him to remain in his position.

Biles found this out 2 weeks ago. So for those of you asking why she would crack now, that seems like a pretty good reason to not be in the right headspace.

This is all interesting - but irrelevant to me.

First, and foremost, Biles is a human - and she deserves the time and space to deal with things on her own terms.  I don't need to know, or agree with, or even understand, why she opted to step down.  She does not owe me an explanation.  She says she is not mentally capable of competing right now - and that's enough to garner my support.

 

[Sinn Fein]

so for the majority of people Biles will only be remembered for this. 

I would simply say - that is their loss.

 

[Gally]

You are trying really hard to frame it as something it’s not, sorry. What she did is fine, I support her 100% but it’s also ok to call it what it is. Jordan/Brady/Phelps/Kobe etc never pulled themselves out of Finals/Super Bowls etc. It just is what it is….and that’s ok. I wish her the best. 

Kobe did decide to pout in a critical playoff game and cost his team a victory just to prove some point that the team needed him to win.  This is much, much worse than this situation.  

 

[GroveDiesel]

This is all interesting - but irrelevant to me.

First, and foremost, Biles is a human - and she deserves the time and space to deal with things on her own terms.  I don't need to know, or agree with, or even understand, why she opted to step down.  She does not owe me an explanation.  She says she is not mentally capable of competing right now - and that's enough to garner my support.

Oh I totally agree. But some people seem to be questioning why now and I think this is a pretty good reason for why now. But I’m with you, she doesn’t owe that to anyone.

 

[Caveman33]

Biles decision has been praised because she is a MSM darling.  It was a predictable and partisan reaction.  If she was mentally rattled to the point where her future attempts would likely result in poor scores or even injury then withdrawing was the correct decision.  I'm assuming her withdrawal meant that one of the remaining teammates could compete in her events, not that her absence created a lost opportunity for the team to the score. 

 

[McBokonon]

This might be a slightly contrarian view, but I, for one, DO think Biles owes me a personal explanation, perhaps even an apology, and I would like it typewritten and on my desk by 8am tomorrow morning.

 

[Gally]

I would simply say - that is their loss.

I agree but it is going to happen because of the nature of the sports popularity.  It's an every 4 year mainstream event.  Most people don't even recognize World Championships or other events.  It's Olympics or nothing.  This happened on that stage and will be what many people remember.  

 

[Stinkin Ref]

it's really tough because of the timing.....(after some bad routines/performances)...it's also tough, because these athletes sign up for this and they know what they are getting themselves into and the pressure that is involved.....its not a surprise....if anyone should have known, it should have been Biles right?....she has been through it before...so we would think she was prepared physically and mentally...so in some ways its tough to give her a hall pass here....

but if she wasn't right mentally and it became a safety issue for her, by all means she did the right thing....it just sucks it happened at this time.....we also may get a little confused on the yips or whatever and how that actually relates to really serious "mental health issues".....she may not have true mental health "issues" she may just have a gymnast version of a golfer temporarily having the shanks.....

now if all the abuse stuff and what not is a contributing factor and resurfaced and piled on to all of this....then it's kind of a different story.....I'm not really concerned with all the labels hero/quitter whatever.....if she truly stepped back because she has serious mental health issues and it became a safety issue for her....then I hope she gets the help she needs and it was the right move....the timing just sucked for it to come to a head then and there....but if its just the yips or shanks or whatever, I could see how it could maybe be looked at a little differently.....

 

[GoBirds]

Kobe did decide to pout in a critical playoff game and cost his team a victory just to prove some point that the team needed him to win.  This is much, much worse than this situation.  

I don’t recall this ever happening on the biggest stage but I could be wrong and I’m ok taking him out of the group mentioned. 

 

[Gally]

I don’t recall this ever happening on the biggest stage but I could be wrong and I’m ok taking him out of the group mentioned. 

It was a game 7 against Phoenix in the 2006 playoffs.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

It's Olympics or nothing.  This happened on that stage and will be what many people remember.  

Maybe. But how many people know she is already an Olympic gold medalist?

 

[HarryKane09]

Kobe did decide to pout in a critical playoff game and cost his team a victory just to prove some point that the team needed him to win.  This is much, much worse than this situation.  

Kobe’s action IMO registers a lot higher on the Quit scale because he his health was fine, but he went out there in the second half and barely engaged in the action, put a lot more effort into talking trash about his teammates to fans and press seated courtside.  The most important thing to him in that moment was to make sure his teammates got as much blame as possible for the loss.  
 

I’m also uncomfortable elevating Kobe to a comparison to Biles for other reasons.  One that stands out is Kobe in all likelihood committed sexual assault.  When the charged crime was being investigated, Kobe’s team, his league, and the court system worked very hard to accommodate him so he could keep playing while accused of the crime.  And after it was settled out of court, his team, his league, and his sponsors worked very hard to rehabilitate his image. Contrast that with Biles, who was one of many, many victims within USA Gymnastics, and the system worked to silence her and the other victims, and tried very hard to protect her perpetrator.  

 

[Gally]

Maybe. But how many people know she is already an Olympic gold medalist?

Doesn't really matter much.  The casual Olympic gymnastics fan (every 4 years) may know she got gold but I think this situation will be more prevalent in their mind especially with the GOAT on the uniform and all the hype leading up to it.  It's unfortunate but I think it is reality.  

 

[Gally]

Kobe’s action IMO registers a lot higher on the Quit scale because he his health was fine, but he went out there in the second half and barely engaged in the action, put a lot more effort into talking trash about his teammates to fans and press seated courtside.  The most important thing to him in that moment was to make sure his teammates got as much blame as possible for the loss.  
 

I’m also uncomfortable elevating Kobe to a comparison to Biles for other reasons.  One that stands out is Kobe in all likelihood committed sexual assault.  When the charged crime was being investigated, Kobe’s team, his league, and the court system worked very hard to accommodate him so he could keep playing while accused of the crime.  And after it was settled out of court, his team, his league, and his sponsors worked very hard to rehabilitate his image. Contrast that with Biles, who was one of many, many victims within USA Gymnastics, and the system worked to silence her and the other victims, and tried very hard to protect her perpetrator.  

I completely agree

 

[Chaos Commish]

It was a game 7 against Phoenix in the 2006 playoffs.  

 He didn't tank. He did what he did all the time in those days. Scored 25 or so in the first half. And still they were getting blown out. 1 seed Phoenix against 8 seed LA. The double teams intensified. He tried to get his guys going, like he often did those days with a bad team. Sometimes it worked, but his support was horrible. No one could hit a shot. The blowout got worse, but he never tanked. I saw him do that live a dozen times on those bad teams. Sorry for the sidebar, but really....

Please let's not make this about Kobe.

Thanks for this thread @Joe Bryant. I haven't followed closely. I saw the vault and her statement live. I leaned slightly critical but felt it is what it is, no big deal to me. I join others who leaned that way and flipped to supporting her by reading. Really good thoughtful conversation... mostly.

 

[parrot]

Doesn't really matter much.  The casual Olympic gymnastics fan (every 4 years) may know she got gold but I think this situation will be more prevalent in their mind especially with the GOAT on the uniform and all the hype leading up to it.  It's unfortunate but I think it is reality.  

I am as casual as gymnastics fans get.  If told to name a second currently competing gymnast with a gun to my head, prior to people talking about Suni Lee I would have said "that girl with the crazy tumbling routines" or made up some syllables and put "kova" on the end. 

That said, I know Biles is the goat by any kind of objective measure.  I think that is how she will be remembered and this will be a footnote.