So eggs are bad again? (1 Viewer)

[Terminalxylem]

Actually, I think I did a poor job of communicating. I apologize.

I have been to a multitude of doctors, neurologists, pharmacists, gastroenterologists and nutritionists. But, yeah - I am 100% certain that I have bias' influencing my approach.

As I stated, I am currently eating the maximum amount of carbs that my body has demonstrated it is possible to metabolize with my current level of insulin. So - I am maxing to the max - though I understand what you mean by "minimizing".

Once I have "maxed' my carb intake (in the most efficient and healthy way I know how) through this:

I am still way way way under my energy needs for my most basic daily functioning. As stated, I cannot even life weights any more, as it would just eat my own body rather than build muscle. I need more energy.

Done it. Tried it.

I'm telling ya - I need 3000 cal/day MIN to build muscle. A typically mixed healthy diet as you describe, leaves me under fueled. Thus, I need to find sources of protein and fat only. Eggs are but one example.

If I am still misunderstanding, I apologize. But currently, I think that you do not fully understand my body or my needs.

I do appreciate all the information though; I have plenty left to learn on this stuff.

Thnx.

Thanks for the clarification. There's no way I can synthesize your entire medical history from a couple of posts. But unless you are fairly tall and/or an elite athlete, it's difficult to reconcile needing in excess of 3000 kCal/day just to maintain muscle mass. Plug your numbers into the Harris-Benedict equations and see what it spits out: https://globalrph.com/medcalcs/basal-energy-expenditure-bee-equation/

If that number + your daily exercise expenditure is nowhere near 3000, something is off (mine is 1675, and I'm a healthy weight - this means I'd have to burn an extra ~1300+ calories a day to be in your dilemma). Again, I'd make sure my doc has exhausted other possibilities for your low energy/weight loss - thyroid disease, malabsorption, HIV, cancer, uncontrolled mood disorder, to name a few. I'm not trying to freak you out with some of those possibilities, just making sure it isn't something other than diet.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Thanks for the clarification. There's no way I can synthesize your entire medical history from a couple of posts. But unless you are fairly tall and/or an elite athlete, it's difficult to reconcile needing in excess of 3000 kCal/day just to maintain muscle mass. Plug your numbers into the Harris-Benedict equations and see what it spits out: https://globalrph.com/medcalcs/basal-energy-expenditure-bee-equation/

1411.2 is my result.

But, this is the point that I am trying to make. These equations are created using wide data from widely different sources. To find that I fall WAY out of the predicted result does not surprise or phase me in the least. 

Why? Because I listen to my body and monitor and record every single thing I can.

This approach makes it easy for me to reconcile because I am doing the math myself.

If that number + your daily exercise expenditure is nowhere near 3000, something is off (mine is 1675, and I'm a healthy weight - this means I'd have to burn an extra ~1300+ calories a day to be in your dilemma). Again, I'd make sure my doc has exhausted other possibilities for your low energy/weight loss - thyroid disease, malabsorption, HIV, cancer, uncontrolled mood disorder, to name a few. I'm not trying to freak you out with some of those possibilities, just making sure it isn't something other than diet.

I am something similar to bi-polar.

Don't worry, I am not freaked out. I have had to deal with my "edge of the bell curve" existence my entire life. It can be frustrating when I go to new doctors, but after a year or so they see the same data as I.

I am currently in a controlled phase of my mood disorder (since about 2012), but I am still trying to figure out how to resolve some of its lingering issues.

I have had an extremely high metabolism my entire life. I have some stories from when I was a kid and ate at friends houses that are funny as hell now. At the time, I pissed a lot of those parents off because I ate so much more than the others.

Over the years, I began to understand better, but - it is still an issue.

I appreciate your insight - especially noticing the mood order potential. I don't think I am having issues with any of the other problems you mention.

Sleep - sleep is still a big one for me though. I am working on it best I can.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

needing in excess of 3000 kCal/day just to maintain muscle mass.

Another clarification.

2400 = barely maintaining mass

3000 = growth

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’m familiar with the Adventist studies - I think I posted something of a rebuttal somewhere on those.  Let me see if I can find a link.  From what I recall two things stood out about that one - they were/are heavily vested in some of the things they were proposing and they also live pristine lives compared with most people so it was never obvious that their diet was as big a factor in their mortality as people believed.

Not sure which China study you are referring to - link it up.

The first Adventist study didn't control for confounders very well. Adventist II and later did.

The China study, like the Adventist studies, produced a bunch of data. Assuming you don't want to buy the 400+ page book, you can download the data and glean the gist of their findings here

 

[Terminalxylem]

Here you go - scroll down

https://chriskresser.com/do-vegetarians-and-vegans-live-longer-than-meat-eaters/

Thanks. I don't have time to drudge through all the primary data now, but I know the EPIC study in particular has its own set of criticism - I linked it in the keto thread before.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don't frequent the site, but I believe they reference specific studies in their videos. It would be much better if links were included.

I'll ask again, where do you get your nutrition info?

I dont only go to one place for nutrition info, so thats kind of a hard question to answer quickly. I will read almost anything from outlandish mens health articles to harvard health to propaganda put out by food orgs to mommy bloggers. Probably once a day somebody i know on facebook is posting a link to something with some bold new conclusion. I then read what the links are saying and try to find the actual studies, if they even exist.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Here you go - scroll down

https://chriskresser.com/do-vegetarians-and-vegans-live-longer-than-meat-eaters/

Thank you for posting this. That site seems to share my opinion that there isn't much available that eliminates the obvious biases involved. 

I am struggling a bit to understand some of the data in the EPIC oxford study. The actual data is here. Specifically what I am confused on is the colorectal results. Is that report basically saying that vegetarians and the standard population get colorectal cancers at the same rate? 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Thank you for posting this. That site seems to share my opinion that there isn't much available that eliminates the obvious biases involved. 

I am struggling a bit to understand some of the data in the EPIC oxford study. The actual data is here. Specifically what I am confused on is the colorectal results. Is that report basically saying that vegetarians and the standard population get colorectal cancers at the same rate? 

No. According to the study, vegetarians die of colorectal cancers at roughly the same rate as the general population. It says nothing about disease prevalence of non fatal cancers. And the confidence interval is wide for vegetarians because there weren’t many colorectal deaths, so it’s tricky to interpret in any event.

 

[Chaka]

Given those limitations, how do you determine a healthy diet?

FTR, most nutrition studies in legit publications try to control for confounders.

I've been on the scientific end of population studies (migraine genetics) and from my experience trying to control for confounding factors is a hilarious exercise in taking wild ### guesses.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I've been on the scientific end of population studies (migraine genetics) and from my experience trying to control for confounding factors is a hilarious exercise in taking wild ### guesses.

If the alternative is an anecdotal approach to determine what's healthy, I'll choose science.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

If the alternative is an anecdotal approach to determine what's healthy, I'll choose science.

I think they can both be applied. Thus, I don't think you have to have an "alternative".

I come from a biology / engineering background, but I've come to reply on my own experience in regards to a lot of the things we are discussing here.

I think science is an important foundation to begin with, but the individual and their care takers must then find the proper way to apply the scientific model to the individual. That can be an art.

 

[ChainsawU]

I have some stories from when I was a kid and ate at friends houses that are funny as hell now.

Love the science/art analogy. What changes regarding sleep did you make before losing the 20 pounds, and how did you link improper sleep to the processing of carbohydrates? I think sleep is the next thing I'm going to try and investigate/improve. Carbohydrate processing is something I think I have trouble with after too much Dr Pepper ruined all my receptors when I was a kid.

 

[ChainsawU]

portion control

My old man was married to a Canadian woman for like two weeks. Anyway, when she came here she was appalled by the portion size at American restaurants. I can still remember her ghastly face saying, "Oh, the portions here!" I was an overweight 11 year old and shocked to hear her say that, as portion size was something I had absolutely no outside frame of reference for.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I have some stories from when I was a kid and ate at friends houses that are funny as hell now.

Love the science/art analogy. What changes regarding sleep did you make before losing the 20 pounds, and how did you link improper sleep to the processing of carbohydrates? I think sleep is the next thing I'm going to try and investigate/improve. Carbohydrate processing is something I think I have trouble with after too much Dr Pepper ruined all my receptors when I was a kid.

Thanks.

The sleep issues have been pretty much the same my whole life.

I experience insomnia most all nights, and then I have a BIG sleep to "catch up". I also nap when needed. And, I sometimes make myself when - when possible.

From my research, I think the irregular cycles of sleep have tied up a lot of my "system" in regards to a normal body cycle - which includes insulin production and maintenance. Over the years, my chaotic cycle has ruptured my insulin cycle.

I don't have any links available, but I have read some good things (some provided by others here). If I can find the thread later, I will send it to you.

IRT to weight loss, I don't think that sleep is the primary driver - tho I think there is some correlation between the two.

I began losing weight when I could not STUFF in enormous amounts of calories.

In an odd way, it is like I am not getting rest during my sleep, but rather am continuing to burn calories like a mutha.

This part is purely speculative at this point, but it matches well with my sleep data.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I think they can both be applied. Thus, I don't think you have to have an "alternative".

I come from a biology / engineering background, but I've come to reply on my own experience in regards to a lot of the things we are discussing here.

I think science is an important foundation to begin with, but the individual and their care takers must then find the proper way to apply the scientific model to the individual. That can be an art.

Fair enough. Medicine and nutrition are certainly imperfect sciences.

Despite its limitations, I think the bulk of nutrition literature supports eating animal protein sparingly, if at all. I've never seen or heard anything remotely scientific which suggests otherwise.

From the anecdotal side of the equation, no long lived group - Seventh Day Adventists, Okinawans, Sardinians, Icarians, and inhabitants of the Nicoya Peninsula (AKA the Blue Zones) eats much meat.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Fair enough. Medicine and nutrition are certainly imperfect sciences.

Despite its limitations, I think the bulk of nutrition literature supports eating animal protein sparingly, if at all. I've never seen or heard anything remotely scientific which suggests otherwise.

From the anecdotal side of the equation, no long lived group - Seventh Day Adventists, Okinawans, Sardinians, Icarians, and inhabitants of the Nicoya Peninsula (AKA the Blue Zones) eats much meat.

Oh, I agree with most all you say. I prefer beginning with the best peer reviewed work in the proper fields.

I also agree that a diet recommendation for a broad population is going to be successful in the majority of cases. The model was built on those cases.

It is only on the scale of the individual  that a lot of these things get dicey. If you are lucky, you fall within an acceptable deviation of the bell curve.

If you are not lucky, you fall at an edge. There, things are not always easy.

Thus, I am not trying to argue against the value and proper use of current science. I just want to note that there is some chaos in the shadows that is not exactly predictable or explainable to date.

 

[AAABatteries]

Thanks.

The sleep issues have been pretty much the same my whole life.

I experience insomnia most all nights, and then I have a BIG sleep to "catch up". I also nap when needed. And, I sometimes make myself when - when possible.

From my research, I think the irregular cycles of sleep have tied up a lot of my "system" in regards to a normal body cycle - which includes insulin production and maintenance. Over the years, my chaotic cycle has ruptured my insulin cycle.

I don't have any links available, but I have read some good things (some provided by others here). If I can find the thread later, I will send it to you.

IRT to weight loss, I don't think that sleep is the primary driver - tho I think there is some correlation between the two.

I began losing weight when I could not STUFF in enormous amounts of calories.

In an odd way, it is like I am not getting rest during my sleep, but rather am continuing to burn calories like a mutha.

This part is purely speculative at this point, but it matches well with my sleep data.

I'm sure you've done everything you can think of to get rid of your insomnia - it must be unbelievabley frustrating.  I have no recommendations and I'm sure if I did you would have already tried them.  My only comment/suggestion is to listen to the Rogan podcast with Matthew Walker (sleep expert) - here's a clip of it.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-iQHE5tdUI

Maybe you can find some info in there that will help you.  Good luck.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I'm sure you've done everything you can think of to get rid of your insomnia - it must be unbelievabley frustrating.  I have no recommendations and I'm sure if I did you would have already tried them.  My only comment/suggestion is to listen to the Rogan podcast with Matthew Walker (sleep expert) - here's a clip of it.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-iQHE5tdUI

Maybe you can find some info in there that will help you.  Good luck.

I just watched.

The 3 things he addressed are great:

1) Regularity of bedtime and sleep cycle - this is very difficult for me - my core issue. I seem to have around a 30 hour cycle rather than 24.

2) Light reduction of the environment will help with falling asleep - melatonin relation - I NEED to improve this. I still have too many lights on at night and don't turn off screens early enough.

3) Cooler temp will help with falling asleep - I have tried some of this - it does help. I have also tried using the gloves and socks method to begin my sleep - this heats the extremities and helps to circulate the blood and thus better cool the body overall. Good stuff here. I have not used the  bath method he describes. I may try it.

The history part of it is fascinating.

And, the 2 sleeps part is really interesting - it sounds like some of my issues, but he notes that some types of it may be a cultural trend rather than biological.

But, there is another kind of 2 sleep that is perhaps a natural biological cycle. He also says that diet does not seem to affect this - much.

I will need to look deeper into this.

Thanks, it has helped a lot.