So eggs are bad again? (1 Viewer)

[Galileo]

I hadn't heard about this white vs. red meat thing mentioned in the thread.  I found a recent CNN article about it.  It seems to really be a lean meat vs. fatty meat thing.  When I think "white meat" I think chicken breast.  When I think "red meat" I'm thinking a typical cut of beef.  As a general rule, it still seems like white meat is a better choice with some obvious exceptions.

Plant proteins had the healthiest impact on blood cholesterol, the study results showed. Meanwhile, the effects of white and red meats on participants' cholesterol levels were identical when saturated fat levels were equivalent.

Time to go vegan... 

 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Well we just have eggs are bad, red meat is bad and chicken is just as bad...not much meat else left

Here is a list of health issues related to animal products

https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/animal-products/

Do a little research on that site before you buy into it too much. 

Hint: I am a vegetarian and I think that site is trash.

 

[supermike80]

Does anyone else have serious issues with what this article is trying to say?

"The red meat or white meat debate is a draw: Eating white meat, such as poultry, will have an identical effect on your cholesterol level as eating red beef, new research indicates.

The long-held belief that eating white meat is less harmful for your heart may still hold true, because there may be other effects from eating red meat that contribute to cardiovascular disease, said the University of California, San Francisco researchers. This needs to be explored in more detail, they added."

Ok what now?  White meat is as bad for you as red meat but also not really cause it might not be as bad for your heart as red meat?   What?????

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

As a diabetic, carbs ain't my best friend either. I tend to go pretty heavy on eggs.

I am in the 2 cartoon per week range also. 

I'm on meds for triglycerides and doc is OK with my intake. I try to add a lot of fish and lean meat, legumes & nuts, etc... But eggs still top my easy list. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

As a diabetic, carbs ain't my best friend either. I tend to go pretty heavy on eggs.

I am in the 2 cartoon per week range also. 

I'm on meds for triglycerides and doc is OK with my intake. I try to add a lot of fish and lean meat, legumes & nuts, etc... But eggs still top my easy list. 

Just eat TWO handfuls of almonds instead and you will be A-ok.

 

[Ilov80s]

Do a little research on that site before you buy into it too much. 

Hint: I am a vegetarian and I think that site is trash.

Fair enough, it's just an obvious case that I wasn't looking closely at site quality 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/considering-a-vegetarian-diet-is-meat-free-really-better

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/meatless-meals/art-20048193

https://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-a-livable-future/projects/meatless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Just eat TWO handfuls of almonds instead and you will be A-ok.

Yeah, I love almonds, but I still have to limit my intake. Carbs are low, but not zero. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Does anyone else have serious issues with what this article is trying to say?

"The red meat or white meat debate is a draw: Eating white meat, such as poultry, will have an identical effect on your cholesterol level as eating red beef, new research indicates.

The long-held belief that eating white meat is less harmful for your heart may still hold true, because there may be other effects from eating red meat that contribute to cardiovascular disease, said the University of California, San Francisco researchers. This needs to be explored in more detail, they added."

Ok what now?  White meat is as bad for you as red meat but also not really cause it might not be as bad for your heart as red meat?   What?????

A huge thing I noticed was this:

Meanwhile, the effects of white and red meats on participants' cholesterol levels were identical when saturated fat levels were equivalent.

How typical is it that saturated fat is the same in white and red meats?  The article doesn't say how people are eating their meats.  Obviously fried chicken with the skin on is going to be a hell of a lot fattier than a baked skinless chicken breast.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

Fair enough, it's just an obvious case that I wasn't looking closely at site quality 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/considering-a-vegetarian-diet-is-meat-free-really-better

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/meatless-meals/art-20048193

https://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-a-livable-future/projects/meatless_monday/resources/meat_consumption.html

I just see that site promoted all the time and it drives me nuts. It reads like it is well sourced and has tons of links. When you click on them though they are just internal site links. So they will say a "New york Times study" with a link, but the link will just go to another page that says the same thing. Then if you google the information you will find it has been misquoted or parsed in a misleading way. 

It isn't a secret that too much meat isn't good for you. But a moderated diet that includes meat is certainly not bad for you. 

I have never seen a study that compares people that eat a well regulated meat included diet to people that eat a well regulated vegetarian diet. Not saying it doesnt exist, just that I have never seen it and would like to. My gut tells me that data would be very similar. 

 

[Chaka]

White meat is typically poorly prepared rendering it dry and flavorless.

The window between juicy chicken breast and hammered shoe leather is microscopic and 99.9% of people who cook it ##$# it up royally then we all sit around pretending were not eating a basketball wrapped in sandpaper.

Thank God Almighty for the invention of immersion cicrulators for home chefs.

[/ ]

 

[Ilov80s]

I assume this is actual meat study for those interested 

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/advance-article/doi/10.1093/ajcn/nqz035/5494812

Our results indicate that current advice to restrict red meat and not white meat should not be based on their plasma lipid effects. Indeed, other effects of unprocessed red meat consumption could contribute to adverse effects on CVD risk (41, 42). In this regard, while we found no significant effects of dietary protein source on blood pressure, fasting glucose, or endothelial reactivity, we have reported separately that the red meat dietary intervention resulted in significant increases in plasma concentrations of trimethylamine-N-oxide (43), a metabolite derived from intestinal bacterial metabolism of carnitine (44) that has been linked to incidence of CVD (44, 45). Moreover, recent meta-analyses of prospective cohort studies reported increased CVD incidence associated with processed red meat (3, 46) suggesting that preservatives such as sodium, nitrates, and their by-products may contribute to the association between total red meat intake and CVD risk. Dietary intake of heme iron, abundant in red meat, has also been associated with increased CVD risk (47), likely through mechanisms involving lipid peroxidation and inflammation.

and 

The results of the present study support current dietary recommendations to adopt dietary patterns with high vegetable content, but do not provide evidence for choosing white over red meat for reducing CVD risk on the basis of plasma lipid and lipoprotein effects. Moreover, the weaker association with CVD risk of large LDL than of small LDL (26, 36–38) suggests that the impact of high intakes of red and white meat, as well as SFA from dairy sources, which selectively raised large LDL subfractions, may be overestimated by reliance on LDL cholesterol, as is the case in current dietary guidelines

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

White meat is typically poorly prepared rendering it dry and flavorless.

The window between juicy chicken breast and hammered shoe leather is microscopic and 99.9% of people who cook it ##$# it up royally then we all sit around pretending were not eating a basketball wrapped in sandpaper.

Thank God Almighty for the invention of immersion cicrulators for home chefs.

[/ ]

Yeah. I'm not a paid spokesperson, but I got a Breville smart oven for a Christmas gift. and it totally turned around my chicken breasts and other meats. It takes a few experiments to get the exact cook time right, but with an internal thermometer or a few trials it makes the stuff the same over and over again. It really made a difference in my diet when I could easily get good results.

I've heard good things about the immersion cicrulators as well. I might get one for this Christmas.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Yeah. I'm not a paid spokesperson, but I got a Breville smart oven for a Christmas gift. and it totally turned around my chicken breasts and other meats. It takes a few experiments to get the exact cook time right, but with an internal thermometer or a few trials it makes the stuff the same over and over again. It really made a difference in my diet when I could easily get good results.

I've heard good things about the immersion cicrulators as well. I might get one for this Christmas.

we love ours.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

In the end, the best diet is mostly vegetable, fish and fruit. Animal products are mostly bad for us. Anything with added sugar is especially bad for us. Grilled meat is also especially bad. I have read a few articles speculating in the not so distant future grilling and sugar loaded foods could be treated like smoking.

This guy gets it. All the keto craziness is moving people away from healthy diets in favor of rapid, probably unsustainable weight loss.

 

[Terminalxylem]

And now there's no difference in white vs red meat in terms of what is better for you.  #madness

While you're fixated only on CV health (red meat poses a bigger cancer risk), perhaps neither is particularly healthy?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Need you to show your work here.  

Can you show me anything which shows animal products are better than a plant based diet?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Do a little research on that site before you buy into it too much. 

Hint: I am a vegetarian and I think that site is trash.

It's a little sensational, but not complete trash. Most nutrition sites are worse. Where do you get your info?

 

[Terminalxylem]

I just see that site promoted all the time and it drives me nuts. It reads like it is well sourced and has tons of links. When you click on them though they are just internal site links. So they will say a "New york Times study" with a link, but the link will just go to another page that says the same thing. Then if you google the information you will find it has been misquoted or parsed in a misleading way. 

It isn't a secret that too much meat isn't good for you. But a moderated diet that includes meat is certainly not bad for you. 

I have never seen a study that compares people that eat a well regulated meat included diet to people that eat a well regulated vegetarian diet. Not saying it doesnt exist, just that I have never seen it and would like to. My gut tells me that data would be very similar. 

Don't know what you consider "well regulated", but look up the Adventist studies or the China study. Both show the less meat/animal products you eat, the less health problems.

 

[AAABatteries]

Can you show me anything which shows animal products are better than a plant based diet?

Two things:

1. I never said they were “better”

2. I don’t believe there is an optimal diet for everyone and I do believe that some people do very well eating meat.  There’s some that do well being vegetarian or vegan.  I think if you eat a healthy balanced diet that includes meat it can be just as healthy or close enough that it’s not distinguishable from chance.  I think we spend too much time focusing on the vegan vs. meat eater debate when the real enemy is sugar, processed foods (including processed meats), alcohol and starchy foods.

 

[parasaurolophus]

It's a little sensational, but not complete trash. Most nutrition sites are worse. Where do you get your info?

It is complete trash. Almost all of their data is manipulated. Why do you think they pretty much refuse to post links? 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Don't know what you consider "well regulated", but look up the Adventist studies or the China study. Both show the less meat/animal products you eat, the less health problems.

What i mean by well regulated is somebody that is basically eating a balanced diet of healthy food including meat and comparing it to a healthy diet of not eating meat. 

Never read anything about the adventist studies. Do you have any good summary links with the data? 

I wish the clinicaltrials government page had results posted rather than just the study description. 

 

[Chaka]

Virtually any dietary study based on self reporting data is garbage. Doing a meta-analysis on those self reporting studies and drawing any firm conclusions is lighting that garage on fire and calling it a barbecue.

 

[AAABatteries]

Virtually any dietary study based on self reporting data is garbage. Doing a meta-analysis on those self reporting studies and drawing any firm conclusions is lighting that garage on fire and calling it a barbecue.

Before MyFitnessPal and similar apps came along virtually no one was tracking what they ate - it was just guesswork.  And just think how much doesn't get logged even having the technology to do it easily and then think how much worse it was in most of these studies with people self-reporting months and years after the fact.  It's almost comical.

Also, the fact that they can't eliminate control variables makes a lot of dietary studies suspect at best.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

This guy gets it. All the keto craziness is moving people away from healthy diets in favor of rapid, probably unsustainable weight loss.

I think much confusion stems from a persons perspective. 

I used to be a very healthy weight for me - even when I developed diabetes. My sleeping patterns seem to have had the biggest negative effects on my body, and it's processing of food. Thus, I lost 20 pounds because I was not processing carbs. 

When I switched to a diet recommended by my nutritionaist / doctor - I lost 20 more pounds that I did not want to lose or need to lose. 

I have been on the border of a malnutrition BMI since January. I have averaged 2400 cal/day since then, and I have had to cut back on my exercise routine. I still have to fight to keep from losing more weight. 

My intake of carbs is at its maximum safe leve for my body to process. I srill need more energy - more food. 

My available choices are proteins and fats that contain no carbs whatsoever. I choose healthy meats and cheeses and similar. I eat more nuts and other similar things than a squirrel it seems - as much as I can, but I need more

Am I missing an option? Really, my docs are kinda clueless & I am doing the best I can. At present, I think health guides are just that - guides. And we need to learn how to apply them to our own bodies the best we can - even if it is not a perfect solution. 

 

[kface]

The evidence is strongly waited against both red/white meat and eggs...

 

[Warrior]

The evidence is strongly waited against both red/white meat and eggs...

Maybe they should wait a little longer and re-analyze.

 

[kface]

Maybe they should wait a little longer and re-analyze.

The studies have been done over the last 3 decades...the more they appear to know about red meat especially the worse it looks

 

[ChainsawU]

I don’t believe there is an optimal diet for everyone and I do believe that some people do very well eating meat.  There’s some that do well being vegetarian or vegan.  I think if you eat a healthy balanced diet that includes meat it can be just as healthy or close enough that it’s not distinguishable from chance.  I think we spend too much time focusing on the vegan vs. meat eater debate when the real enemy is sugar, processed foods (including processed meats), alcohol and starchy foods.

I think this is great, start to finish. Very Nice job.

 

[ChainsawU]

Over the years of working out, studying nutrition, and experimenting, I've come to the conclusion that everyone's dietary needs are like their fingerprints. They're all alike, but no two are identical. Relying on someone else to do a "study" and then applying it to yourself randomly doesn't feel efficient to me. For me it was learning how to detox, which then eventually led to fasting, and then adding things into my diet gradually to see how I felt. Eliminated the conflict among all the different independent variables I was trying to discriminate between/among.

 

[ChainsawU]

I try to buy the Eggland Best eggs but honestly, I have no idea what exactly they are eating aside from that they are "vegetarian fed".

I feel you. That phrase has a proprietary feel to it that kinda makes you feel anxious. I think for the most part it's a clean diet, it must be since their goal is to have the best dietary numbers in the industry, but let's face it, they're mass scale too. And from their website: "Our quality assurance laboratory regularly tests our eggs from each of our farms across the country to ensure that Eggland's Best eggs have a lower level of cholesterol."

As a result, their eggs contain less cholesterol, though - and (I think) a greater amount of healthy fat/less saturated fat, etc..

 

[Waingro]

It is complete trash. Almost all of their data is manipulated. Why do you think they pretty much refuse to post links? 

huh... I always thought Dr. Michael Greger was pretty legit. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

huh... I always thought Dr. Michael Greger was pretty legit. 

Sure. If you think somebody that mostly uses videos he makes and quotes studies that were either uncontrolled, unpublished, or had as little as 6 end result participants to make incredibly bold, blanket diet/health statements, then yes. Totally legit.

And again this is coming from somebody that hasn't eaten meat(or fish, or poultry) in over 20 years. I don't say that as proof I am an expert, I point it out to show you shouldn't consider me to be somebody biased against such a thing or that is dug in arguing in favor of bacon or something. 

 

[Galileo]

Sure. If you think somebody that mostly uses videos he makes and quotes studies that were either uncontrolled, unpublished, or had as little as 6 end result participants to make incredibly bold, blanket diet/health statements, then yes. Totally legit.

And again this is coming from somebody that hasn't eaten meat(or fish, or poultry) in over 20 years. I don't say that as proof I am an expert, I point it out to show you shouldn't consider me to be somebody biased against such a thing or that is dug in arguing in favor of bacon or something. 

Oh...don't you dare start F'ing with bacon. 

 

[supermike80]

Two things:

1. I never said they were “better”

2. I don’t believe there is an optimal diet for everyone and I do believe that some people do very well eating meat.  There’s some that do well being vegetarian or vegan.  I think if you eat a healthy balanced diet that includes meat it can be just as healthy or close enough that it’s not distinguishable from chance.  I think we spend too much time focusing on the vegan vs. meat eater debate when the real enemy is sugar, processed foods (including processed meats), alcohol and starchy foods.

And that weird genetics thing.....That seems to have some role.  

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

Oh...don't you dare start F'ing with bacon. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Two things:

1. I never said they were “better”

2. I don’t believe there is an optimal diet for everyone and I do believe that some people do very well eating meat.  There’s some that do well being vegetarian or vegan.  I think if you eat a healthy balanced diet that includes meat it can be just as healthy or close enough that it’s not distinguishable from chance.  I think we spend too much time focusing on the vegan vs. meat eater debate when the real enemy is sugar, processed foods (including processed meats), alcohol and starchy foods.

Ok, I'll submit that a plant-based diet is better for your health than one that includes meat. That's not to say everyone who eats meat is unhealthy, nor that all vegans make healthy choices.

There probably is an optimal diet for individuals, not populations. I'm not sure science has sorted out all the details yet, but nothing I've seen makes me think meat is an integral part of it.

I agree mostly with your final sentence, though an argument can be made to include animal protein on your list. And portion control.

 

[Terminalxylem]

What i mean by well regulated is somebody that is basically eating a balanced diet of healthy food including meat and comparing it to a healthy diet of not eating meat. 

Never read anything about the adventist studies. Do you have any good summary links with the data? 

I wish the clinicaltrials government page had results posted rather than just the study description. 

This is the adventist studies' home page: https://publichealth.llu.edu/adventist-health-studies You have to work a bit to find the original data.

Here's one of the individual publications: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4191896/

There were 2570 deaths among 73 308 participants during a mean follow-up time of 5.79 years. The mortality rate was 6.05 (95% CI, 5.82–6.29) deaths per 1000 person-years. The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs non-vegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80–0.97). The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73–1.01); in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82–1.00); in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69–0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75–1.13) compared with nonvegetarians. Significant associations with vegetarian diets were detected for cardiovascular mortality, noncardiovascular noncancer mortality, renal mortality, and endocrine mortality. Associations in men were larger and more often significant than were those in women.

Conclusions and Relevance

Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality. Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance.

And to clarify, fish appears to be pretty healthy. I don't think the same can be said for meat from land animals or products derived from them (dairy, eggs).

 

[Terminalxylem]

And that weird genetics thing.....That seems to have some role.  

Of course it does...but that is non-modifiable, at least right now. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Before MyFitnessPal and similar apps came along virtually no one was tracking what they ate - it was just guesswork.  And just think how much doesn't get logged even having the technology to do it easily and then think how much worse it was in most of these studies with people self-reporting months and years after the fact.  It's almost comical.

Also, the fact that they can't eliminate control variables makes a lot of dietary studies suspect at best.

Given those limitations, how do you determine a healthy diet?

FTR, most nutrition studies in legit publications try to control for confounders.

 

[Terminalxylem]

It is complete trash. Almost all of their data is manipulated. Why do you think they pretty much refuse to post links? 

I don't frequent the site, but I believe they reference specific studies in their videos. It would be much better if links were included.

I'll ask again, where do you get your nutrition info?

 

[AAABatteries]

Ok, I'll submit that a plant-based diet is better for your health than one that includes meat. That's not to say everyone who eats meat is unhealthy, nor that all vegans make healthy choices.

There probably is an optimal diet for individuals, not populations. I'm not sure science has sorted out all the details yet, but nothing I've seen makes me think meat is an integral part of it.

I agree mostly with your final sentence, though an argument can be made to include animal protein on your list. And portion control.

I’ve not seen a good argument for it.  Typical studies I’ve seen show minimal risk increases and most don’t account for confounders.  I’m happy to read though but typically if someone tells me my chance of X is say 8% and my risk goes up 1% or less then it’s close enough to random for me to enjoy what I’m eating.  When I say better, it also includes sustainability and enjoyment in it.  Maybe if I ate nothing but broccoli for the rest of my life I’m going to give myself a 1% better chance of living longer.  I’m not going to do it .  Life is full of risks and our diets have some risks too but nothing I’ve seen that leads me to believe vegetarians live significantly longer than healthy eating meat eaters.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I think much confusion stems from a persons perspective. 

I used to be a very healthy weight for me - even when I developed diabetes. My sleeping patterns seem to have had the biggest negative effects on my body, and it's processing of food. Thus, I lost 20 pounds because I was not processing carbs. 

When I switched to a diet recommended by my nutritionaist / doctor - I lost 20 more pounds that I did not want to lose or need to lose. 

I have been on the border of a malnutrition BMI since January. I have averaged 2400 cal/day since then, and I have had to cut back on my exercise routine. I still have to fight to keep from losing more weight. 

My intake of carbs is at its maximum safe leve for my body to process. I srill need more energy - more food. 

My available choices are proteins and fats that contain no carbs whatsoever. I choose healthy meats and cheeses and similar. I eat more nuts and other similar things than a squirrel it seems - as much as I can, but I need more

Am I missing an option? Really, my docs are kinda clueless & I am doing the best I can. At present, I think health guides are just that - guides. And we need to learn how to apply them to our own bodies the best we can - even if it is not a perfect solution. 

I think you need to find another doctor and/or nutritionist. But it also seems you have some biases which are influencing your approach.

Diabetics need to minimize simple carbohydrates. But the idea that your only choices are "proteins and fats that contain no carbs whatsoever" is incorrect. A healthy diet for a diabetic includes plenty of veggies (and fruits, though the fructose can spike blood glucose if not careful), most of which are carbohydrates. For simplicity's sake, I'd go with one of the better studied diets, like the Mediterranean, or Ornish. And I'd make sure my doctor has done some screening for other causes of involuntary weight loss.  

 

[AAABatteries]

Given those limitations, how do you determine a healthy diet?

FTR, most nutrition studies in legit publications try to control for confounders.

Good question and I think the answer is crowdsourcing of sorts.  Because there is no consensus I think you have to weigh the evidence plus look at what works for others and then ultimately pick something that is sustainable for you.  Also, by trial and error and tracking my personal vitals to make sure they are within the standard values (things like glucose, weight, triglycerides, cholesterol/tri ratio, BP)

On confounders it’s my understanding that some are accounted for but typically not all because it’s just too difficult 

 

[AAABatteries]

To clarify my crowdsourcing comment - I mean study aggregators plus other sources - don’t mean to imply not to trust doctors, scientist and the like - I’m just saying until more work is done to use all of it and weed out ones that don’t make sense. And do something that works for you.

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

I think you need to find another doctor and/or nutritionist. But it also seems you have some biases which are influencing your approach.

Actually, I think I did a poor job of communicating. I apologize.

I have been to a multitude of doctors, neurologists, pharmacists, gastroenterologists and nutritionists. But, yeah - I am 100% certain that I have bias' influencing my approach.

Diabetics need to minimize simple carbohydrates.

As I stated, I am currently eating the maximum amount of carbs that my body has demonstrated it is possible to metabolize with my current level of insulin. So - I am maxing to the max - though I understand what you mean by "minimizing".

But the idea that your only choices are "proteins and fats that contain no carbs whatsoever" is incorrect.

Once I have "maxed' my carb intake (in the most efficient and healthy way I know how) through this:

A healthy diet for a diabetic includes plenty of veggies (and fruits, though the fructose can spike blood glucose if not careful), most of which are carbohydrates.

I am still way way way under my energy needs for my most basic daily functioning. As stated, I cannot even life weights any more, as it would just eat my own body rather than build muscle. I need more energy.

For simplicity's sake, I'd go with one of the better studied diets, like the Mediterranean, or Ornish. And I'd make sure my doctor has done some screening for other causes of involuntary weight loss.  

Done it. Tried it.

I'm telling ya - I need 3000 cal/day MIN to build muscle. A typically mixed healthy diet as you describe, leaves me under fueled. Thus, I need to find sources of protein and fat only. Eggs are but one example.

If I am still misunderstanding, I apologize. But currently, I think that you do not fully understand my body or my needs.

I do appreciate all the information though; I have plenty left to learn on this stuff.

Thnx.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’ve not seen a good argument for it.  Typical studies I’ve seen show minimal risk increases and most don’t account for confounders.  I’m happy to read though but typically if someone tells me my chance of X is say 8% and my risk goes up 1% or less then it’s close enough to random for me to enjoy what I’m eating.  When I say better, it also includes sustainability and enjoyment in it.  Maybe if I ate nothing but broccoli for the rest of my life I’m going to give myself a 1% better chance of living longer.  I’m not going to do it .  Life is full of risks and our diets have some risks too but nothing I’ve seen that leads me to believe vegetarians live significantly longer than healthy eating meat eaters.

You've read the Adventist and China studies?

If you like meat/dairy/eggs, etc. have at it. But I bet you'd be surprised how sustainable a diet containing much less of those foods can be. No one is advocating eating just broccoli. After being raised on burgers, lasagna and steak, I gave up all non-fish meat over a decade ago. I've discovered a lot of new delicious foods, which don't make me feel like I'm missing anything.

Truth be told, if you can maintain a healthy weight and exercise regularly,  you're way ahead of most of the population. But with the available nutrition data, I've come to the conclusion that a near-vegetarian/pescatarian diet is far healthier - a conclusion shared by nearly every major medical and nutrition organization on the planet. I'm not just interested in living longer, I also desire to maximize disease-free functionality, as I think that has a lot more to do with quality of life than a slice off bacon. 

 

[AAABatteries]

@Man of Constant Sorrow - what about avocados?  I’m sure you’ve tried a lot of things.  MCT Oil?  Coconut oil?

 

[Man of Constant Sorrow]

@Man of Constant Sorrow - what about avocados?  I’m sure you’ve tried a lot of things.  MCT Oil?  Coconut oil?

I'm just now getting into avocados - I like em a lot.

I've always like coconut too, but I have recently been using Extra Virgin Olive Oil when I do use an oil (not too often at present).

MCT Oil looks interesting. I have not tried it b4. Thnx. I will try it.

 

[AAABatteries]

You've read the Adventist and China studies?

If you like meat/dairy/eggs, etc. have at it. But I bet you'd be surprised how sustainable a diet containing much less of those foods can be. No one is advocating eating just broccoli. After being raised on burgers, lasagna and steak, I gave up all non-fish meat over a decade ago. I've discovered a lot of new delicious foods, which don't make me feel like I'm missing anything.

Truth be told, if you can maintain a healthy weight and exercise regularly,  you're way ahead of most of the population. But with the available nutrition data, I've come to the conclusion that a near-vegetarian/pescatarian diet is far healthier - a conclusion shared by nearly every major medical and nutrition organization on the planet. I'm not just interested in living longer, I also desire to maximize disease-free functionality, as I think that has a lot more to do with quality of life than a slice off bacon. 

I’m familiar with the Adventist studies - I think I posted something of a rebuttal somewhere on those.  Let me see if I can find a link.  From what I recall two things stood out about that one - they were/are heavily vested in some of the things they were proposing and they also live pristine lives compared with most people so it was never obvious that their diet was as big a factor in their mortality as people believed.

Not sure which China study you are referring to - link it up.

 

[AAABatteries]

Here you go - scroll down

https://chriskresser.com/do-vegetarians-and-vegans-live-longer-than-meat-eaters/