Englishteacher
Footballguy
gut check time fellas
tell us what you think
tell us what you think
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Spinoff thread: Pick a RB for your NFL team: (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Englishteacher
- Start date
Blackjacks
Footballguy
MJD has had an unreal year for his standards and alot of people think Bush has underpreformed. When you look at their #'s they are only about 50 yards difference. I think in another 2 years Reggie Bush will be the best player in football. I think you know who I'd rather have. 
Blackjacks
Footballguy
Why would you say that?I might be able to tell myself that MJD is the better runner inbetween the tackles (which I don't believe) but where else on the field do you see MJD better than Bush?Are you saying he has better moves? (no)Catches passes better? (no)picking up blitz's? (no)Where else is MJD better than BUsh except maybe running up the middle, I want to know.Is he faster....I think notSorry, it's my boy. I get alittle defensive.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
MJD is the best scatback in recent memory (since Eric Metcalf, prolly, and prolly better to boot). He'll have a good career, but nothing special.
But, Bush is not a scatback but more of a "hybrid" in the mold of Westbrook/Faulk. He's obviously not going to Canton anytime soon, but I'd lay 100:1 odds that he does before Jones-Drew.
But, Bush is not a scatback but more of a "hybrid" in the mold of Westbrook/Faulk. He's obviously not going to Canton anytime soon, but I'd lay 100:1 odds that he does before Jones-Drew.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
You guys are still loopy from the egg nog, aren't you? Or, is it just an early New Year's?Blackjacks
Footballguy
I agree
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Not to be snippy, but - watching them play.Running inside is a big deal, a very big deal. Jones-Drew has excelled at that this year, as well as in college. Bush has not.The extent to which Jones-Drew is better at this is much, much greater and more significant than the extent to which Bush is faster or quicker than Jones-Drew.I'm not saying Bush isn't good, or won't be very good. I'm saying I think Jones-Drew will be better.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Wrong. Bush is more of a scatback than Jones-Drew. Jones-Drew is not a scat back in any way except height. He breaks tackles, he carries defenders. Watch game film of Jones-Drew, like the game last week for instance, then get back to me.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
I did. Looking at his stature AND body of work thus far (watched about half of the J'ville games this year), he's a really damn good little scatback. He's a better pure runner than Metcalf, but he's more in that mold than anything else.Hey, I'm all about the little guys. It's no diss on him. But, he's no Reggie Bush.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Reggie Bush:rushing: 152/545/5receiving: 86/729/2punt returns: 28/216/1total: 266/1490/8Maurice Jones-Drew:rushing: 154/895/12receiving: 42/420/2kick returns: 25/718/1punt returns: 1/13/0total 212/2046/15Jones-Drew has done much more with fewer touches.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Reggie BushWeight: 203
Maurice Jones-Drew
Weight: 212
Ask the Patriots' front 7 if they think Jones-Drew is a scatback. They should know, he ran over/through them last week.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Jones-DrewHeight: 5'7"
Scatback.
Geezus, this isn't a slap in the face on the guy. He does some things really well. But, let's call a spade a spade and not get all geeked up over this. He's a really damn good scatback.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Except that he's not a scatback. He's got #### all to do with Eric Metcalf. He's a freak of nature, his height is meaningless, each of his legs is thicker than your chest, he can carry two inside linebackers on his back and still gain three yards, if they can hang on.If you continue to espouse the inaccurate view of him as a scatback you're only fooling yourself and potentially misinforming those not familiar with him.
On this run up the gut I figure he broke at least 3 tackles, one by Zach Thomas (leading the NFL in tackles this year). Very un-scatback like, never seen Eric Metcalf do the like - and I've seen a lot of Metcalf.
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drdgreenlove
Footballguy
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
lol at putting kick return stats in there
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
This is tough.
No doubt that MJD has been more explosive on the ground, and seems to create more opportunities for the running game.
That said, Bush creates more opportunities for offense in general when he's on the field -- a "hybrid" back is a great way of describing him, as you can utilize his talent lining up at any skill position. In this day and age when offences are becoming more hybrid in nature, rather than just pure vanilla schemes, Bush seems to open up the offence.
I guess it simply depends on the team you are inserting them into. An offence like the Raiders needs a guy who can run betewen the tackles and be a threat on any given running play to keep Ds honest. An offence like the Colts, who utilize tons of movement and audibles, could better utilize Bush's skills.
If forced to pick, I'd go with MJD simply because of his dominant stats and impressive play.
No doubt that MJD has been more explosive on the ground, and seems to create more opportunities for the running game.
That said, Bush creates more opportunities for offense in general when he's on the field -- a "hybrid" back is a great way of describing him, as you can utilize his talent lining up at any skill position. In this day and age when offences are becoming more hybrid in nature, rather than just pure vanilla schemes, Bush seems to open up the offence.
I guess it simply depends on the team you are inserting them into. An offence like the Raiders needs a guy who can run betewen the tackles and be a threat on any given running play to keep Ds honest. An offence like the Colts, who utilize tons of movement and audibles, could better utilize Bush's skills.
If forced to pick, I'd go with MJD simply because of his dominant stats and impressive play.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
lol at putting kick return stats in thereReggie Bush:rushing: 152/545/5receiving: 86/729/2punt returns: 28/216/1total: 266/1490/8Maurice Jones-Drew:rushing: 154/895/12receiving: 42/420/2kick returns: 25/718/1punt returns: 1/13/0total 212/2046/15Jones-Drew has done much more with fewer touches.
Do those yards and TDs not count?But to humor you, if you don't count punt/kick returns (for whatever obsucre reason):Jones-Drew has more yardage(1315 to 1274) and more TDs (14 to 7) rushing/receiving than Bush on fewer touches (196 to 238).
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
So I can throw JJ Arrington into the best RB in the NFL mix because he has 1500+ kick return yards...right? Sure...the kick returns and punt returns add value to a team, but using them in the context you did just isn't a legit way to compare. There's a reason there's a 'yards from scrimmage' stat kept.lol at putting kick return stats in thereDo those yards and TDs not count?But to humor you, if you don't count punt/kick returns (for whatever obsucre reason):Jones-Drew has more yardage(1315 to 1274) and more TDs (14 to 7) rushing/receiving than Bush on fewer touches (196 to 238).
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Sure, even though the question asked was to compare Bush and Jones-Drew, just be sure to include Arrington's rushing and receiving yards too, as we're comparing whole packages here. I don't think he'd come off so well do you?Why isn't it legitimate? Returns are one of Bush's strengths.Regardless, Jones-Drew has done better than Bush with or without returns.So I can throw JJ Arrington into the best RB in the NFL mix because he has 1500+ kick return yards...right? Sure...the kick returns and punt returns add value to a team, but using them in the context you did just isn't a legit way to compare. There's a reason there's a 'yards from scrimmage' stat kept.lol at putting kick return stats in there
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PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Let me preface this post by saying that I do not believe in general in taking out a big play to say "His average isn't that good without that big play."BUT - this statement that Drew "ran over/through" the New England front 7 last week is not an accurate representation of his game. He had a 77 yard run was a mental mistake by Tully Banta-Cain - Drew was knocked down, and Banta-Cain assumed he was down. Jones got up and ran for the 77 yard TD run.If you take away that run, he had 54 yards on 18 carries for a nice 3.1 ypc.To put it another way, Jones-Drew was completely shutdown the entire day with the exception of one huge run that was the result of a mental mistake by one player.Again, I'm not saying that he's not good, blah blah blah - but to say that Jones-Drew ran over the New England defense all day last week is simply inaccurate. So, if you're going to call out a specific defense in a specific game, please actually watch the game. TIA.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
I did see the game, and I also saw numerous close ups of Jones-Drew's runs on Inside the NFL, even the short yardage ones, you should check that out if you can - those were some of the best short yardage runs I've seen in a while. Wasn't even thinking of the 74 yarder, though that was a great run. He ran tough inside all game long. He was gaining yardage breaking tackles and carrying guys throughout the game. Just looking at the stats doesn't tell the whole story here - and I think you know that.ETA: I do not mean to imply that the Pats got pushed around on D, just that Jones-Drew gave as good as he got against one of the toughest Ds in the league, which is not the hallmark of a scatback.
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Tough As Nails
Glave Master
1. Arrington DOES come off well. He's got 1600 total yards on the year and averages over 20 yards per touch if we use your method. 2. It's not legitimate because Bush, and most other RBs, don't return kicks. Would you enter Chris Carr into a conversation about great defensive backs because of his 1600 return yards? Of course you wouldn't. 3. I agree...Jones-Drew has had the better year.Sure, even though the question asked was to compare Bush and Jones-Drew, just be sure to include Arrington's rushing and receiving yards too, as we're comparing whole packages here. I don't think he'd come off so well do you?Why isn't it legitimate? Returns are one of Bush's strengths.Regardless, Jones-Drew has done better than Bush with or without returns.So I can throw JJ Arrington into the best RB in the NFL mix because he has 1500+ kick return yards...right? Sure...the kick returns and punt returns add value to a team, but using them in the context you did just isn't a legit way to compare. There's a reason there's a 'yards from scrimmage' stat kept.lol at putting kick return stats in there
The question isn't which has been more successful up til now, it's which would you rather have on your team. With all respect to MJD, who I think it's going to be a great back, the answer has to be Bush. MJD is a running back, a very good one, but just a running back. Reggie Bush is a rare multi dimensional weapon in the Faulk mold, and has shown vast improvement after a rough start to his career. Give Bush one more offseason to add a little weight, and Payton to devise more ways to use him, and Bush is going to be a monster next year.
No slight at all on MJD, but Bush is a rare talent.
No slight at all on MJD, but Bush is a rare talent.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
That leaves Arrington many yards and many TDs short.Bush returns punts. Are we to consider punt returns but not kick returns? Or neither when considering which guy you'd want to have on your NFL team?Most backs don't catch 40 or 50 passes a year either - but we consider receptions don't we? ETA: Actually it looks like many backs do catch 40 or more passes a year, if this year is any indication.I figure in a comparison of players you'd want to take all their contributions into account.
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Take the contribution into account all you like, just don't use them when comparing two players. Adding kick return stats to a yards/yards per play discussion is just silly. Even if he was a terrible kick returner, it would still make him look way better.MJD is great, but kick return yardage shouldn't come into the discussion.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
I didn't say Arrington was better. I said if we use your method we can put him in the conversation. 1600 yards at 20 yards per touch puts him in the top 10 for RBs. Of course, that's ridiculous though. Nobody would put Arrington in the top 40 runningbacks in the NFL. Using kickoff returns to inflate a players yards per touch is a ridiculous argument. You put me back there to return kicks...I'd be the worst return man in the league, but I'd average 10 yards per return just by sprinting forward and doing a baseball slide. 10 yards per touch. That's more than Tomlinson! I'd be a stud RB!Look, I already said that kick returns add value to a team. You can use them in an argument if you want. But the context you used it in was/is ridiculous.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
You want to rephrase that? Because it makes no sense as it stands, actually I don't see support for most of what you've said there. Yards are yards, points are points - guys who can get those for you to an appreciable extent are valuable. Discounting one type of contribution of a player doesn't make sense to me, especially when returns are one of Bush's strengths.By the way, I'll restate - Jones-Drew has done better than Bush with or without taking return yards into consideration.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
Yards are yards? You can't be serious. Do you think Brian Mitchell is one of the greatest players in NFL history? He's got over 23,000 yards.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
It's only ridiculous (if it is at all, see above if I guy gets me yards and points I don't care how he's doing it) if only one of the guys does returns. They both do returns, it's part of their games, we're comparing the two players. It's not ridiculous. Jones-Drew gets more yards per touch any way you want to slice it, with returns, without returns, yards per carry, yards per reception. That's right, he's even better at yards per reception.I didn't say Arrington was better. I said if we use your method we can put him in the conversation. 1600 yards at 20 yards per touch puts him in the top 10 for RBs. Of course, that's ridiculous though. Nobody would put Arrington in the top 40 runningbacks in the NFL. Using kickoff returns to inflate a players yards per touch is a ridiculous argument. You put me back there to return kicks...I'd be the worst return man in the league, but I'd average 10 yards per return just by sprinting forward and doing a baseball slide. 10 yards per touch. That's more than Tomlinson! I'd be a stud RB!Look, I already said that kick returns add value to a team. You can use them in an argument if you want. But the context you used it in was/is ridiculous.
No I don't want to rephrase it. An average kick return is 20 yards, one returns kicks and one dosn't. You're making a terrible argument for a very good player.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
Pssst....Reggie Bush hasn't returned a kickoff all year long. And if you are going to compare kickoff return yardage and average equally with punt returns...well, then, I think I'll shoot myself in the groin.It's only ridiculous (if it is at all, see above if I guy gets me yards and points I don't care how he's doing it) if only one of the guys does returns. They both do returns, it's part of their games, we're comparing the two players. It's not ridiculous. Jones-Drew gets more yards per touch any way you want to slice it, with returns, without returns, yards per carry, yards per reception. That's right, he's even better at yards per reception.I didn't say Arrington was better. I said if we use your method we can put him in the conversation. 1600 yards at 20 yards per touch puts him in the top 10 for RBs. Of course, that's ridiculous though. Nobody would put Arrington in the top 40 runningbacks in the NFL. Using kickoff returns to inflate a players yards per touch is a ridiculous argument. You put me back there to return kicks...I'd be the worst return man in the league, but I'd average 10 yards per return just by sprinting forward and doing a baseball slide. 10 yards per touch. That's more than Tomlinson! I'd be a stud RB!Look, I already said that kick returns add value to a team. You can use them in an argument if you want. But the context you used it in was/is ridiculous.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Who's talking about greatest players in NFL history?Mitchell certainly was a valuable player though.We're comparing two guys, Bush and Jones-Drew. Please retain focus.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
It's an analogy, genius. You are the guy putting kickoff return stats into discussions about position players. Brian Mitchell ran the ball and caught it out of the backfield. He also was a return specialist. You seem to think that yards are yards. So Mitchell's 23,000 are apparently as impressive to you as Jerry Rice's 23,000.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Thx info. I know avg kick returns are much greater than avg punt returns.Reggie Bush is the 23rd ranked punt returner in the NFL.Maurice Jones-Drew is the 3rd ranked kick returner in the NFL.I'll drop the kick return thing now.Please don't shoot yourself in the groin - Jones-Drew probably won't return kicks next year when he's the main RB for the Jags.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
Whew. The wife thanks you. Please continue to use Jones-Drew's value as a kickoff return guy in your argument...I like him a lot (though not as much as Bush). Just don't use it in the context you did, it really defeats the purpose of comparing their stats.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
You know what - they would be if they came along with 207 touchdowns like Rice's did and they represented an appreciably higher than normal average over the standard like Rice's were. But they don't and they weren't so they're not. I hope that doesn't make you want to shoot yourself in the groin too.
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Tough As Nails
Glave Master
I'm way too tired for this. I'm going to pass. Just know that if somebody scores 200 TDs on kick returns, they would not be looked at as equal to Rice's TDs. They would be looked at as the greatest accomplishment in sports history.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Absolutely. My point being if you could find me a guy who could gain that many yards, that far above the what the average is/was per reception, rush, return, whatever and score that many points, I don't care how he's doing it, he's a very valuable player. Mitchell got the yards, but he didn't have the average, and he didn't score the points, so he's not a great comparison for your purposes.Did you know Rice's career yards per reception average would make him #2 in the NFL in that category this season? Amazing.Mitchell's career yards per kick return would put him tied for about 18th in the NFL in that category this season. Not so amazing.
pettifogger
Footballguy
For my NFL team, I'll take MJD and use the $50 million I saved, not having to pay Bush's contract, on other players.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
That's a great point too.
Blackjacks
Footballguy
lol at putting kick return stats in thereDo those yards and TDs not count?But to humor you, if you don't count punt/kick returns (for whatever obsucre reason):Jones-Drew has more yardage(1315 to 1274) and more TDs (14 to 7) rushing/receiving than Bush on fewer touches (196 to 238).
I guess you figured out how me and NASA came up with 50 yards.If you really would take MJD over Bush good for you. He did have a hell of a year. I guess by that reasoning you'd take Michael Furrey over Fitz because he had a better year this year.Reggie Bush has made the Saints what they are this year. He is a defensive coordinator's nightmare,You always have to wonder where is going and have 2 guys there to compensate for him. You just waithe'll be just fine running up between the tackles. He is a superior talent that will show over time. No disrespect to MJD he had a great year and has a good future....just not as good as REGGIE'S 
Englishteacher
Footballguy
This is a pretty hot debate with excellent points on both sides. People feel pretty strongly one way or another. However, this a damn good point here folks.
Another thing to consider, look at the talent on each offense and tell me MJD doesn't have less to work with than Bush. Look at what he's done. There's really not another skill player for Jax outside of Fredro Taylor that's worth anything.Englishteacher
Footballguy
Unreal year compared to all the other years he's played in the NFL? Bush might try becoming the best RB on his team first.MJD has had an unreal year for his standards and alot of people think Bush has underpreformed. When you look at their #'s they are only about 50 yards difference. I think in another 2 years Reggie Bush will be the best player in football. I think you know who I'd rather have.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
Toughwhat?exactly!Little Big Head said:
Wow, you really don't like Bush do you. I'm sure you loved the Saints talent in the preseason. I also remember pretty much everyone saying the Saints would have one of the worst OLines in football. If you switched the WR corps, the Saints would still have the best offense in the NFL.Englishteacher said:This is a pretty hot debate with excellent points on both sides. People feel pretty strongly one way or another. However, this a damn good point here folks.pettifogger said:Another thing to consider, look at the talent on each offense and tell me MJD doesn't have less to work with than Bush. Look at what he's done. There's really not another skill player for Jax outside of Fredro Taylor that's worth anything.
Blackjacks
Footballguy
I like to think I'm a better observer of talent than your avg football fan but I can admit I'm not a NFL GM. Your NFL GM's are the one's that have (6) #1's on Jax's offensive side of the ball (Reggie Williams, Matt Jones, M. Lewis, F. Taylor, Kyle Brady and Bryon Leftwich.) On the other side of the arguement we have the Saints who have Deuce and Reggie as their only #1 picks @ the skill spots. Now you didn't ask who has better preformers , you said skill and if GM's draft players based on skill I would say Jax has more of it on the offensive side of the ball.That is a good point about the $ but that wasn't in the original ? If that was how the ? was asked it would definetly be a harder ? to answer.....actually no it wouldn't. I'd still take Reggie all day.Englishteacher said:This is a pretty hot debate with excellent points on both sides. People feel pretty strongly one way or another. However, this a damn good point here folks.pettifogger said:
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