SpyGate (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"No current player or coach could hint at anything without getting slammed by the league, which is why we are only seeing former coaches and players discussing this as commonplace.

It's not like BB outed himself.

And it isn't like EVERY coach is publicly criticizing him either.

and?

 

[massraider]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"

That's not the only way to say it. They could just say they disagree with Mangini saying anything, or it could have been handled a different way. Here's an article Don Banks wrote on the subject, and a quick quote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...iots/index.html

Belichick's fellow head coaches haven't exactly closed ranks around another member of their fraternity this week, have they? You can certainly understand where that group, which has been consistently beaten by Belichick this decade, could be feeling a healthy dose of sour grapes. But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident.

Colts head coach Tony Dungy said it would be "disturbing'' if the Patriots are found guilty of stealing signs via videotape, a determination that the league reportedly has already made. "You kind of feel like there's a code of honor, a code of ethics in the league,'' Dungy added.

Steelers' first-year head coach Mike Tomlin was the Vikings defensive coordinator in the '06 game that Favre alluded to the Patriots as being "flawless.'' Asked about New England's reputation within the league for sign-stealing, Tomlin this week said: "Usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no.''

Both Tennessee head coach Jeff Fisher and his Baltimore counterpart, Brian Billick, weighed into the controversy on a limited basis, in essence saying that anyone caught disregarding NFL rules should pay the price. In other words, even three-time Super Bowl winners who might be merely practicing what others have done elsewhere in the NFL.

 

[j3r3m3y]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"No current player or coach could hint at anything without getting slammed by the league, which is why we are only seeing former coaches and players discussing this as commonplace.

It's not like BB outed himself.

And it isn't like EVERY coach is publicly criticizing him either.

and?

I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.This, plus the commentary from former coaches, in addition to there being one incident we know about where a team was caught but not turned in, seems to indicate that there is a protocol among coaches when handling this issue. I suggest he may have violated that protocol.

 

[massraider]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"No current player or coach could hint at anything without getting slammed by the league, which is why we are only seeing former coaches and players discussing this as commonplace.

It's not like BB outed himself.

And it isn't like EVERY coach is publicly criticizing him either.

and?

I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.This, plus the commentary from former coaches, in addition to there being one incident we know about where a team was caught but not turned in, seems to indicate that there is a protocol among coaches when handling this issue. I suggest he may have violated that protocol.

Read the article I linked above. Former coaches? How about current coaches?

 

[jonessed]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"No current player or coach could hint at anything without getting slammed by the league, which is why we are only seeing former coaches and players discussing this as commonplace.

It's not like BB outed himself.

And it isn't like EVERY coach is publicly criticizing him either.

and?

I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.This, plus the commentary from former coaches, in addition to there being one incident we know about where a team was caught but not turned in, seems to indicate that there is a protocol among coaches when handling this issue. I suggest he may have violated that protocol.

So every coach that doesn't publicly criticize him is "in on it"? He was supposed to be just cool with someone coming into his stadium and cheating? That doesn't make sense.

 

[j3r3m3y]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"No current player or coach could hint at anything without getting slammed by the league, which is why we are only seeing former coaches and players discussing this as commonplace.

It's not like BB outed himself.

And it isn't like EVERY coach is publicly criticizing him either.

and?

I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.This, plus the commentary from former coaches, in addition to there being one incident we know about where a team was caught but not turned in, seems to indicate that there is a protocol among coaches when handling this issue. I suggest he may have violated that protocol.

Read the article I linked above. Former coaches? How about current coaches?

The ones with clean hands will be the ones who speak out. The ones who say nothing either don't want to get involved or they are just as guilty. They cant all be the former.

 

[bostonfred]

I've been more concerned about this than the other allegations from the get go. I really don't think the videotaping is a big deal. This, on the other hand, could be a big deal. I don't think the videotaping was worth a first round pick. but I think it was a fair penalty because I think Goodell included in it the assumption that this was not the first time. I don't think the Patriots should be forced to face double jeopardy for the same offense if it was already built in to the previous offense, especially in prior years. If the radio allegations are true - and I'm more concerned with the allegations that they cut off their opponents' radio during key drives and/or that they had players other than the QB mic'ed up or at times when they shouldn't have been - then I'm much more concerned. If it turns out that they were mic'ing their defensive linemen, as has been alleged about the Dolphins in New England games in Miami - or that they were recording voice as well as video through the radio, I honestly don't think that's much worse. It means that they're using more technology to do the same thing, not doing something else. That's an important line for me.

Obviously, my first, head in the sand as a fan hope is that this is all garbage. But it's hard to believe that. I hope it doesn't end up derailing the Patriots during a season when they could go 16-0. That would be the worst part of this, a team good enough to have a shot at running the table, getting derailed for something they did in the past. But if it happens, it happens. As always, we'll have to see what the commish comes down with.

 

[HellToupee]

...Mangini is going to give the commish the evidence............

As much as BB is guilty & not well like I can't believe Mangini is doing himself any good when leaves the Jets orginization . He was a part of these shenanigans when he coached in NE & he didn't seem to have a problem with the techniques then but is outraged now.

 

[Cerwin]

I've been more concerned about this than the other allegations from the get go. I really don't think the videotaping is a big deal. This, on the other hand, could be a big deal. I don't think the videotaping was worth a first round pick. but I think it was a fair penalty because I think Goodell included in it the assumption that this was not the first time. I don't think the Patriots should be forced to face double jeopardy for the same offense if it was already built in to the previous offense, especially in prior years. If the radio allegations are true - and I'm more concerned with the allegations that they cut off their opponents' radio during key drives and/or that they had players other than the QB mic'ed up or at times when they shouldn't have been - then I'm much more concerned. If it turns out that they were mic'ing their defensive linemen, as has been alleged about the Dolphins in New England games in Miami - or that they were recording voice as well as video through the radio, I honestly don't think that's much worse. It means that they're using more technology to do the same thing, not doing something else. That's an important line for me.

Obviously, my first, head in the sand as a fan hope is that this is all garbage. But it's hard to believe that. I hope it doesn't end up derailing the Patriots during a season when they could go 16-0. That would be the worst part of this, a team good enough to have a shot at running the table, getting derailed for something they did in the past. But if it happens, it happens. As always, we'll have to see what the commish comes down with.

But they were caught this year...

 

[massraider]

The ones with clean hands will be the ones who speak out. The ones who say nothing either don't want to get involved or they are just as guilty. They cant all be the former.

Umm, OK. Who said they had to all be clean? The point is, if the current coaches are saying this, it doesn't really give much credence to the 'code of honor' theory.

 

[David Yudkin]

I think the fact that no coaches have rushed to BB's defense, and in fact many have thrown him under the bus, tells us that this practice may not be all that common.

What current NFL coach in their right mind would come out and say, "Sure, we do this all the time. Heck, we do stuff way worse than that!"

That's not the only way to say it. They could just say they disagree with Mangini saying anything, or it could have been handled a different way. Here's an article Don Banks wrote on the subject, and a quick quote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...iots/index.html

Belichick's fellow head coaches haven't exactly closed ranks around another member of their fraternity this week, have they? You can certainly understand where that group, which has been consistently beaten by Belichick this decade, could be feeling a healthy dose of sour grapes. But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident.

Colts head coach Tony Dungy said it would be "disturbing'' if the Patriots are found guilty of stealing signs via videotape, a determination that the league reportedly has already made. "You kind of feel like there's a code of honor, a code of ethics in the league,'' Dungy added.

Steelers' first-year head coach Mike Tomlin was the Vikings defensive coordinator in the '06 game that Favre alluded to the Patriots as being "flawless.'' Asked about New England's reputation within the league for sign-stealing, Tomlin this week said: "Usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no.''

Both Tennessee head coach Jeff Fisher and his Baltimore counterpart, Brian Billick, weighed into the controversy on a limited basis, in essence saying that anyone caught disregarding NFL rules should pay the price. In other words, even three-time Super Bowl winners who might be merely practicing what others have done elsewhere in the NFL.

Again, what are they supposed to say? If they say it's no big deal, by extension people will think that the coach's team is doing something similar. Just like in the Vick situation, who could possibly side with Vick and not get reamed?A coach really can't come out in favor of cheating, nor could a coach argue against Mangini for ratting out BB. And given that most of the league has had several years of losing to the Pats, what would you expect their opinions to be?

And IIRC, there are some coaches that have come out and said this is not a huge deal. I believe Andy Reid and Mike Martz have already come out and said that NE beat them fair and square and that their titles should not be considered tainted.

 

[GregR_2]

...But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident....

Am I mistaken that I saw video of Jon Gruden at the very least, doing exactly that and saying it wasn't a big deal?

 

[bostonfred]

I've been more concerned about this than the other allegations from the get go. I really don't think the videotaping is a big deal. This, on the other hand, could be a big deal. I don't think the videotaping was worth a first round pick. but I think it was a fair penalty because I think Goodell included in it the assumption that this was not the first time. I don't think the Patriots should be forced to face double jeopardy for the same offense if it was already built in to the previous offense, especially in prior years. If the radio allegations are true - and I'm more concerned with the allegations that they cut off their opponents' radio during key drives and/or that they had players other than the QB mic'ed up or at times when they shouldn't have been - then I'm much more concerned. If it turns out that they were mic'ing their defensive linemen, as has been alleged about the Dolphins in New England games in Miami - or that they were recording voice as well as video through the radio, I honestly don't think that's much worse. It means that they're using more technology to do the same thing, not doing something else. That's an important line for me.

Obviously, my first, head in the sand as a fan hope is that this is all garbage. But it's hard to believe that. I hope it doesn't end up derailing the Patriots during a season when they could go 16-0. That would be the worst part of this, a team good enough to have a shot at running the table, getting derailed for something they did in the past. But if it happens, it happens. As always, we'll have to see what the commish comes down with.

But they were caught this year...

I'm not talking about what they were caught for last week. I don't know if Mangini's supposed smoking gun is something from last week or in the past. I think it would be a shame if a past event impacted the team. But even last week, it would be a shame if a team that crushed their main division and conference rivals in back to back week without the benefit of their illegal activities got derailed by this.

That doesn't mean I don't think that they should be punished for their actions last week. And depending on what the frequencies evidence is, it's possible they deserve an even harsher punishment for subsequent offenses. I'd just hate to see a special team derailed like this.

 

[bostonfred]

...But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident....

Am I mistaken that I saw video of Jon Gruden at the very least, doing exactly that and saying it wasn't a big deal?

Retired players and coaches don't seem to think it was a big deal. People who still have something to lose (or something to gain from seeing the Patriots lose) seem to be coming out more strongly against it. That's not really surprising.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

 

[massraider]

Again, what are they supposed to say? If they say it's no big deal, by extension people will think that the coach's team is doing something similar. Just like in the Vick situation, who could possibly side with Vick and not get reamed?

A coach really can't come out in favor of cheating, nor could a coach argue against Mangini for ratting out BB. And given that most of the league has had several years of losing to the Pats, what would you expect their opinions to be?

First, disregarding their opinions because they have lost to the Pats in the past is flat out absurd. That's the kind of snotty attitude that burns everyone up. To answer your question, if there is this mysterious code of honor that all coaches are following (do they meet in a hidden grotto beneath Yale or something?), then I would expect comments far more innocuous than the ones that I have read. Funny, Dungy mentioned a code of honor as well, but he was speaking about Belichick violating it, not Mangini.

And if all these coaches thought Mangini violated Omerta, there's ways to get that info out without being directly quoted. And you know that.

 

[twitch]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

you missed the entire premise of what I intended because you obviously hate the Patriots. Go on hating and enjoy your season.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

you missed the entire premise of what I intended because you obviously hate the Patriots. Go on hating and enjoy your season.

No I didn't, but here are the cliff notes, they aren't hall of fame PEOPLE. Don't act like you care if they are and don't act whatever good they have in them precludes them from being part of a rule stretch. Vinny Testaverde is as good a guy as you'll find, he's a family man who to my knowledge never left his chick pregant to cavort around with another woman. I could trudge deeper into the Pats personal piccadillos, its not my care or concern. I don't think they're bad guys, but your premise that they are Hall of Fame people is faultly, because if Vinny, the better guy, was plugged in ahead of Brady, the better player, you'd be outraged and rightfully so. As for hating the pats, I root for the Giants to I reserve hate for the NFC East. I never had an overwhelming opinon on Belichick either, other than to

1. respect him

2. appreciate him for succeed to dismantle and deflate the Parcells legend.

I have no bones to pick with him or the team because I don't really think about them.

HOWEVER

if the appearance of impropriety isn't enough to get our attention, then you are, well, what you are, a blind homer.

They are not Hall of Fame guys any more than any other team. And thats ok, I don't demand perfection in a players personal conduct, but nor do I tolerate jagoffery.

 

[jonmhend]

...But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident....

Am I mistaken that I saw video of Jon Gruden at the very least, doing exactly that and saying it wasn't a big deal?

Retired players and coaches don't seem to think it was a big deal. People who still have something to lose (or something to gain from seeing the Patriots lose) seem to be coming out more strongly against it. That's not really surprising.

I don't have an accurate count, but I'm guessing you'd be fortunate to find at most 50% saying that. All of the NBC guys thought it was a big deal. Meshaun didn't but Jackson, and Emmitt did. I don't remember what Ditka said. Schlereth and Salisbury thought it was. Don't know what the rest would say, but I don't think its a "current players who have something to lose" issue.My question is for the guys like Jimmy Johnson and others who don't think its a big deal. I wonder what they would say if they were able to gain access to the full gamut of what they were pulling. What would the video library look like from the Jets current DC? And would they say the same thing about the radio rumors that are now flying about?If all of these methods don't mean much, why would Belich___ employ them?

 

[bostonfred]

...But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident....

Am I mistaken that I saw video of Jon Gruden at the very least, doing exactly that and saying it wasn't a big deal?

Retired players and coaches don't seem to think it was a big deal. People who still have something to lose (or something to gain from seeing the Patriots lose) seem to be coming out more strongly against it. That's not really surprising.

I don't have an accurate count, but I'm guessing you'd be fortunate to find at most 50% saying that. All of the NBC guys thought it was a big deal. Meshaun didn't but Jackson, and Emmitt did. I don't remember what Ditka said. Schlereth and Salisbury thought it was. Don't know what the rest would say, but I don't think its a "current players who have something to lose" issue.My question is for the guys like Jimmy Johnson and others who don't think its a big deal. I wonder what they would say if they were able to gain access to the full gamut of what they were pulling. What would the video library look like from the Jets current DC? And would they say the same thing about the radio rumors that are now flying about?If all of these methods don't mean much, why would Belich___ employ them?

Salisbury said it wasn't a big deal more often than he said it was, but he changes his mind daily. I don't know why you're including him in the list. Everyone on Inside the NFL except Collinsworth said it was no big deal. Keyshawn said it was no big deal. Other ex-players and coaches did, too, but I'm headed home now. Why would someone employ these methods? There are several reasons. One may be that they don't believe they will get in trouble for them. Another might be that they don't believe that what they're doing is specifically wrong - for example, I think Belichick's claim was that he felt that he wasn't allowed to tape the game and look at the results live, but that he was allowed to look at the information after the fact. It sounds pretty weak, but I suppose it's possible that it's true. Another might be that they believe that other teams are doing this, and if they don't, they won't be able to compete on an even playing field. Why would former coaches and players say it's not a big deal? Because they know that variations on this theme are happening on many teams throughout the NFL. I know that you'll disagree with me, but these are fair answers to the questions you asked.

 

[greenline]

:(

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

First, disregarding their opinions because they have lost to the Pats in the past is flat out absurd.

Con permisso, this one burns me up. Please consider what follows as NOT directed to you personally, but to a mindset that chaps me to no end.Whenever a "homer" points to the possibility that the inertia of this situation is driven primarily by those with bias, the homer is told that he is not allowed to disregard these opinions. That's not the point. The point is to recognize the political reality as it factors into our limited understanding of reality. And for that matter, pointing to many past and present players and coaches who describe what BB did in Week 1 2007 and may have done previously as being no worse than what others have done is NOT to excuse the actions. As I have said repeatedly, BB may in fact be "first among thieves", but where was the rightious indignation last year when the Patriots were on the receiving end of Dolphins "cheating" and where was the call for crucifixion when Shanahan admitted with pride to his staff's ability to excel at "cheating". The inevitable answer that comes back is "but BB broke this year's rule! he did it brazenly! others have said he did things in the past! she's a witch! burn her!"Hypocrites, jackals and blind men, I tell you. He who is high will be brought low by the dynamics of the matrix. Particularly if he is an anti-social so and so.With that off my chest, if BB lied and there is "more", I say suspend him for the year if the scope is limited to 2007, and kick him out of football for life if there is a verifiable history of violations of rules in effect at the time of the alleged infractions. How's that for homerism? Twits.

 

[jonmhend]

...But I was taken aback a bit by how no other NFL head coach seemed willing to give the Patriots a pass on this issue, winking at the whole Jets, Spies and Videotape incident....

Am I mistaken that I saw video of Jon Gruden at the very least, doing exactly that and saying it wasn't a big deal?

Retired players and coaches don't seem to think it was a big deal. People who still have something to lose (or something to gain from seeing the Patriots lose) seem to be coming out more strongly against it. That's not really surprising.

I don't have an accurate count, but I'm guessing you'd be fortunate to find at most 50% saying that. All of the NBC guys thought it was a big deal. Meshaun didn't but Jackson, and Emmitt did. I don't remember what Ditka said. Schlereth and Salisbury thought it was. Don't know what the rest would say, but I don't think its a "current players who have something to lose" issue.My question is for the guys like Jimmy Johnson and others who don't think its a big deal. I wonder what they would say if they were able to gain access to the full gamut of what they were pulling. What would the video library look like from the Jets current DC? And would they say the same thing about the radio rumors that are now flying about?If all of these methods don't mean much, why would Belich___ employ them?

Salisbury said it wasn't a big deal more often than he said it was, but he changes his mind daily. I don't know why you're including him in the list. Everyone on Inside the NFL except Collinsworth said it was no big deal. Keyshawn said it was no big deal. Other ex-players and coaches did, too, but I'm headed home now. Why would someone employ these methods? There are several reasons. One may be that they don't believe they will get in trouble for them. Another might be that they don't believe that what they're doing is specifically wrong - for example, I think Belichick's claim was that he felt that he wasn't allowed to tape the game and look at the results live, but that he was allowed to look at the information after the fact. It sounds pretty weak, but I suppose it's possible that it's true. Another might be that they believe that other teams are doing this, and if they don't, they won't be able to compete on an even playing field. Why would former coaches and players say it's not a big deal? Because they know that variations on this theme are happening on many teams throughout the NFL. I know that you'll disagree with me, but these are fair answers to the questions you asked.

I think the response to this entire episode has certainly run the entire spectrum. I just don't agree that its been a deal where those that don't have a current stake in it are on the side of "its no big deal". I would guess that most of the "old timers" who think its no big deal don't really know the full scope of what they are being accused of. They keep asking questions like "Is stealing a sign a big deal?". Thats not the point as its all in the methods they were employing that make it a bid deal. Its using the illegal methods to build a database on DCs around the league.I included Salisbury simply because I heard him specifically come out and say it was a big deal. Whether he backtracked I don't know. What about Hodge, what about Jaws? Jaws does a weekly 15 min spot here in AZ and he thought it was a big deal.As for Belicheck's explanation, he said the only thing he could say that could be construed as an excuse. The directive was clear and unambiguous. Doesn't Bill have a masters or a PhD or something. He knew exactly what the message was. No sideline taping. Not, no sideline taping for use during the game. You probably don't want to admit it, but he just flat out lied. Anyone who isn't a Pats homer knows this.I wonder where you (probably not as much you as you seem fairly level-headed about this in general) and the rest of the Pats homers would come down on this issue if it were Tony Dungy and the Colts being accused of this.

 

[twitch]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

you missed the entire premise of what I intended because you obviously hate the Patriots. Go on hating and enjoy your season.

No I didn't, but here are the cliff notes, they aren't hall of fame PEOPLE. Don't act like you care if they are and don't act whatever good they have in them precludes them from being part of a rule stretch. Vinny Testaverde is as good a guy as you'll find, he's a family man who to my knowledge never left his chick pregant to cavort around with another woman. I could trudge deeper into the Pats personal piccadillos, its not my care or concern. I don't think they're bad guys, but your premise that they are Hall of Fame people is faultly, because if Vinny, the better guy, was plugged in ahead of Brady, the better player, you'd be outraged and rightfully so. As for hating the pats, I root for the Giants to I reserve hate for the NFC East. I never had an overwhelming opinon on Belichick either, other than to

1. respect him

2. appreciate him for succeed to dismantle and deflate the Parcells legend.

I have no bones to pick with him or the team because I don't really think about them.

HOWEVER

if the appearance of impropriety isn't enough to get our attention, then you are, well, what you are, a blind homer.

They are not Hall of Fame guys any more than any other team. And thats ok, I don't demand perfection in a players personal conduct, but nor do I tolerate jagoffery.

you seem to be tolerating yourself quite nicely. like I said, have a nice season.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Since no one asked for my opinion:

Anyone who thinks that the only reason the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls is because they cheated is an idiot.

Anyone who thinks that their cheating in the past did not contribute to their ability to win those 3 Super Bowls is also an idiot.

They won all 3 games by 3 points. They didn't blow people out, like they're doing this year. An "illegal" advantage here or there over the course of the season and playoffs could certainly end up contributing those 3 points. We'll never know.

However, I don't buy the "they're clean from this point forward" because I thought the whole point was that they got the "goods" on teams or defensive coaches. So if they have Ted Cotrell's signals (and frankly, who doesn't), they could have used those against Buffalo and the Jets in the past and can still use them on the Chargers in the future.

If they have the "goods" on Roethlisberger's audibles and cadence from micing up the Dline, they can keep using that in the future unless he changes it.

The implications of having these "tells" on players and coaches, obtained illegally (whether that is fair or warrented or not) is pretty far reaching, IMHO.

 

[jonmhend]

First, disregarding their opinions because they have lost to the Pats in the past is flat out absurd.

Con permisso, this one burns me up. Please consider what follows as NOT directed to you personally, but to a mindset that chaps me to no end.Whenever a "homer" points to the possibility that the inertia of this situation is driven primarily by those with bias, the homer is told that he is not allowed to disregard these opinions. That's not the point. The point is to recognize the political reality as it factors into our limited understanding of reality. And for that matter, pointing to many past and present players and coaches who describe what BB did in Week 1 2007 and may have done previously as being no worse than what others have done is NOT to excuse the actions. As I have said repeatedly, BB may in fact be "first among thieves", but where was the rightious indignation last year when the Patriots were on the receiving end of Dolphins "cheating" and where was the call for crucifixion when Shanahan admitted with pride to his staff's ability to excel at "cheating". The inevitable answer that comes back is "but BB broke this year's rule! he did it brazenly! others have said he did things in the past! she's a witch! burn her!"Hypocrites, jackals and blind men, I tell you. He who is high will be brought low by the dynamics of the matrix. Particularly if he is an anti-social so and so.With that off my chest, if BB lied and there is "more", I say suspend him for the year if the scope is limited to 2007, and kick him out of football for life if there is a verifiable history of violations of rules in effect at the time of the alleged infractions. How's that for homerism? Twits.

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.Thats why Belicheck needs to answer the questions. Come out tomorrow and say: "Ok - you want me to answer the questions around the scandal, you've got one hour. Fire away. Nothing is off the table. At the end of that hour, I'll not make any further comment."Instead, his insistence on not replying to any questions and only putting out brief statements is just going to make the writers continue to push public opinion to believe that Belicheck has turned them into a duck.

 

[mad sweeney]

Anyone who thinks that the only reason the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls is because they cheated is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that their cheating in the past did not contribute to their ability to win those 3 Super Bowls is also an idiot.

 

[David Yudkin]

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.Thats why Belicheck needs to answer the questions. Come out tomorrow and say: "Ok - you want me to answer the questions around the scandal, you've got one hour. Fire away. Nothing is off the table. At the end of that hour, I'll not make any further comment."Instead, his insistence on not replying to any questions and only putting out brief statements is just going to make the writers continue to push public opinion to believe that Belicheck has turned them into a duck.

There are a lot of issues on this one. For starters, who knows if the team and/or the league has told Belichick that he is not to speak on this subject at all.Second, if Belichick answers that could lead to him confessing to other things the team did and only serve to cook his own goose.Third, reporters could also start asking about who else has done this, and if BB has evidence of others doing it then we would be close to a WWE Royal Rumble and the league would suffer. I've openly questioned that if this is the state of the NFL if teams would start ratting each other out. A "they put one of ours in the hospital, we put one of theirs in the morgue" philosophy.I'm not sure that the NFL wants its seedy underbelly exposed for the world to see. (And again, I'm not supporting what the Pats did here.)

 

[AB in DC]

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.

Famous commentators playing up their outrage to drive public opinion? Does this surprise anyone? These guys make their living on groupthink.

 

[AB in DC]

The directive was clear and unambiguous.

Says you.But you haven't actually seen this directive, have you?

 

[twitch]

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.

Famous commentators playing up their outrage to drive public opinion? Does this surprise anyone? These guys make their living on groupthink.

youre making far too much sense here for anyone's good.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

First, disregarding their opinions because they have lost to the Pats in the past is flat out absurd.

Con permisso, this one burns me up. Please consider what follows as NOT directed to you personally, but to a mindset that chaps me to no end.Whenever a "homer" points to the possibility that the inertia of this situation is driven primarily by those with bias, the homer is told that he is not allowed to disregard these opinions. That's not the point. The point is to recognize the political reality as it factors into our limited understanding of reality. And for that matter, pointing to many past and present players and coaches who describe what BB did in Week 1 2007 and may have done previously as being no worse than what others have done is NOT to excuse the actions. As I have said repeatedly, BB may in fact be "first among thieves", but where was the rightious indignation last year when the Patriots were on the receiving end of Dolphins "cheating" and where was the call for crucifixion when Shanahan admitted with pride to his staff's ability to excel at "cheating". The inevitable answer that comes back is "but BB broke this year's rule! he did it brazenly! others have said he did things in the past! she's a witch! burn her!"Hypocrites, jackals and blind men, I tell you. He who is high will be brought low by the dynamics of the matrix. Particularly if he is an anti-social so and so.With that off my chest, if BB lied and there is "more", I say suspend him for the year if the scope is limited to 2007, and kick him out of football for life if there is a verifiable history of violations of rules in effect at the time of the alleged infractions. How's that for homerism? Twits.

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.Thats why Belicheck needs to answer the questions. Come out tomorrow and say: "Ok - you want me to answer the questions around the scandal, you've got one hour. Fire away. Nothing is off the table. At the end of that hour, I'll not make any further comment."Instead, his insistence on not replying to any questions and only putting out brief statements is just going to make the writers continue to push public opinion to believe that Belicheck has turned them into a duck.

I appreciate your point, and this may be one of BB's limitations that pushes the balance towards lynching. If he were more political, and perhaps Kraft would intervene in a facilitator role if he wasn't to some extent running scared, he would do a one-on-one interview (or some other suitable spin vehicle). Sadly, his old-school disregard for the media plays right into the hands of those seeking a pound of flesh.For what it's worth, I think Peter King is a moron and Bob Costas is a pompous moron, and I felt that way before camera gate. I won't deny that there are a slew of media personnel driving the lynch mob, but I would counter by pointing to the slew that are labelling this entire misadventure as exactly that.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

who is that again? i remember someone on here used to post his stuff, but can't remember the team he claimed he worked for. titans or jags i believe. the typing style is very distinct

Good catch. I know who you're talking about based on the style. I think the guys name was 'bongo' or something like that. I think he said he worked for the Titans, but also claimed to have some sort of connection with the Jets. That might explain the inside info on mangini turning information over.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Since no one asked for my opinion:Anyone who thinks that the only reason the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls is because they cheated is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that their cheating in the past did not contribute to their ability to win those 3 Super Bowls is also an idiot.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. Except it isn't really an opinion so much as it is an extrapolation of a fact combined with heresay from potentially biased parties to arrive at a conclusion or judgement. Factoring into the uncertainty, in addition to potential bias in the input data is the potential bias of the judging entity. Absent from this judgement exercise is evaluation of context and relative impact. What remains is character assassination, or in plainer terms, a bunch of old ladies in a knitting circle, gossiping about the young lady across the street. Judge not.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Since no one asked for my opinion:Anyone who thinks that the only reason the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls is because they cheated is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that their cheating in the past did not contribute to their ability to win those 3 Super Bowls is also an idiot.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. Except it isn't really an opinion so much as it is an extrapolation of a fact combined with heresay from potentially biased parties to arrive at a conclusion or judgement. Factoring into the uncertainty, in addition to potential bias in the input data is the potential bias of the judging entity. Absent from this judgement exercise is evaluation of context and relative impact. What remains is character assassination, or in plainer terms, a bunch of old ladies in a knitting circle, gossiping about the young lady across the street. Judge not.

The funny thing is I suspect you are congratulating yourself on the erudition of this tripe.

 

[GregR_2]

... where was the call for crucifixion when Shanahan admitted with pride to his staff's ability to excel at "cheating". ...

First I'd heard of this so I googled it. If taping other teams practices is against the rules the Broncos should be punished. If it isn't against the rules, it should be.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Since no one asked for my opinion:Anyone who thinks that the only reason the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls is because they cheated is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that their cheating in the past did not contribute to their ability to win those 3 Super Bowls is also an idiot.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. Except it isn't really an opinion so much as it is an extrapolation of a fact combined with heresay from potentially biased parties to arrive at a conclusion or judgement. Factoring into the uncertainty, in addition to potential bias in the input data is the potential bias of the judging entity. Absent from this judgement exercise is evaluation of context and relative impact. What remains is character assassination, or in plainer terms, a bunch of old ladies in a knitting circle, gossiping about the young lady across the street. Judge not.

Pretty sure which category you fall into after reading this crap.

 

[reg]

who is that again? i remember someone on here used to post his stuff, but can't remember the team he claimed he worked for. titans or jags i believe. the typing style is very distinct

Good catch. I know who you're talking about based on the style. I think the guys name was 'bongo' or something like that. I think he said he worked for the Titans, but also claimed to have some sort of connection with the Jets. That might explain the inside info on mangini turning information over.

bongo, yes that was it. good memory.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

you missed the entire premise of what I intended because you obviously hate the Patriots. Go on hating and enjoy your season.

No I didn't, but here are the cliff notes, they aren't hall of fame PEOPLE. Don't act like you care if they are and don't act whatever good they have in them precludes them from being part of a rule stretch. Vinny Testaverde is as good a guy as you'll find, he's a family man who to my knowledge never left his chick pregant to cavort around with another woman. I could trudge deeper into the Pats personal piccadillos, its not my care or concern. I don't think they're bad guys, but your premise that they are Hall of Fame people is faultly, because if Vinny, the better guy, was plugged in ahead of Brady, the better player, you'd be outraged and rightfully so. As for hating the pats, I root for the Giants to I reserve hate for the NFC East. I never had an overwhelming opinon on Belichick either, other than to

1. respect him

2. appreciate him for succeed to dismantle and deflate the Parcells legend.

I have no bones to pick with him or the team because I don't really think about them.

HOWEVER

if the appearance of impropriety isn't enough to get our attention, then you are, well, what you are, a blind homer.

They are not Hall of Fame guys any more than any other team. And thats ok, I don't demand perfection in a players personal conduct, but nor do I tolerate jagoffery.

you seem to be tolerating yourself quite nicely. like I said, have a nice season.

How will I live without the approval of what I assume to be a grown man from New England who alternates his use of "hate" as a noun and a verb. Have fun with your head in the sand, maybe down there your team and coach have credibility still.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

This would be a great post if it were true. The haters are driving this discussion (on this message board), but are you saying Peter King has a bias? Don Banks? Costas? There are a slew of nationally respected writers and commentators driving this in the court of public opinion.

Famous commentators playing up their outrage to drive public opinion? Does this surprise anyone? These guys make their living on groupthink.

Thank god we have New England Patriot fans and the minority of media to be our bright shining beacons in the night reminding us that:1. Everyone does this2. It didn't help anyway3. Bill Walsh employed chop blocks I'm just kind of trying to guess what the defense will be when the invesitigation gets to whatever was going on with radio signals in New England. THAT straw grasp will be priceless.

 

[twitch]

So now its illegal headsets/mics in the helmets of DEFENSIVE players?? Offensive players? both? are you guys serious?? are you kidding me? how friggin' ######ed are people???! a helmet that would be left laying around on the sidelines from time to time for perhaps some innnocent bystander to see? and with great players like Bruschil and Brady and the legend and legacies they will be leaving behind when their playing days are done? theyre throwing that all out the window to put a mic in their helmet and find out if the D is in cover 2 or the O is running the draw???! somebody, anybody, PUT THE PIPE DOWN! get a life. you are seriously living in a pretend world if you think that great HOF PEOPLE....because that's what guys like Brady and Bruschi are......they are hall of fame people....people you would be a better person for having known....had anything to do with micing their helmets up and cheating. That IS the new notion?!! Am I getting this correct? Richard Seymour? Willie McGinest? Youve got them pegged as an all-time cheat? GO TELL THEM!

Did you NOT witness the full blown beatdown last night, video and MIC free? How tarnished is that win?? How much evidence does anyone need that the controversy has already been blown beyond belief. Ive heard numerous former players and coaches all week say that while it was cheating, it is relative commonplace. We'll see what the Jets want to try and pursue, but Id say right now, at 0-2 themselves and looking extremely WEAK, they need to focus on their own problems. Clearly, teams dont need much outside help to beat them.

Radio frequencies? Mics and headsets? Cheating Hall of Fame players? Stealing audio? Guys, its football. If you want to join the KGB, move to Russia!! Read another John Grisham book and go take a nap. Allow investigations or rumors or BS 'stories' to play out. Leave it laying on the coach. If there are further punishments down the road on Belichick, so be it. he'll have it coming Im sure if the Commish sees fit. But radios and earpieces in helmets??? Brady, Bruschi, Troy Brown or other team captains with FUTURES beyond football at risk and with so much to lose ALL in on this grand conspiracy?? because that is what all of this suggests. take a vacation in Miami. Get away for a while. or move to Russia.

Bruschi is a Hall of Famer

I think we know who needs to put the pipe down

hall of fame people. I didnt say he was HOF bound, but Im sure his peers will judge his playing significance when his days are over. Id say being a stalwart MLB leader for his entire career on a team with 3 and potentially more titles will not be a bad resume, though. read more carefully if youre gonna come back with the pipe reference.

Now please with THIS one. A guy who left his knocked up chick for a model. Now I don't care, and to tell you the truth, I by and large don't care about the personal conduct of any athlete, if they are good guys as a byproduct or bonus, its all the better, but we should all face facts and realize we are going to root for winners and not choir boys and theres nothing really wrong with that. But don't start gettting on this moral soapbox acting like these guys are somehow superior. They are frequently revolving cadre of of 50 or so men and you'll get some saints and sinners in the bunch. You also leave Rodney Harrison out of your list of angels. The simple fact is this, to compete and suceed in the NFL requires a level of intensity, dedication, effort and drive that anyone around here outside of GordonGekko probably can't comprehend. You can play in the NFL on tools and talent alone but you can't succeed. Having known a few guys who took that next step, the work and singlemindedness of their efforts were frankly unreal. However, with that, with that obession comes a willingness to succeed and win at almost any cost. Your window for glory is so short, and opportunties so fixed and finite, corners could easily be cut.

If they were in the case of the Patriots players, in full disclosure, I don't blame them. I may or may not judge them differently, this case is still sorting itself out, but in football as much as any sport, which is literally much more life and death, you could be Kevin Everett on any play, you could be Terrell Davis flying high and then a blown knee later your career is over and when your shot is there, you take it. I can sympahtize with players. In Belichick's case, what he has done is not the worst thing in the world, but I, and I think we all, should expect and demand more of our coaches. Their window is not as finite and there needs to be some internal governence to their players.

Unfortunately, their fearless leader is drawing dead on clearing their names anytime before any of them retire, if ever. Because to illuminate the shadows he's cast, he's going to have to shine a light on the how of the con, and I wouldn't wait for a notoriously standoffish and media shy guy to clear the names of these guys. Until then, I think most objective people will speculate on if they cheated, and if so, how. Did the team know(unlikely), Did Brady know(more likely)?

As for last nights beatdown, I thought the Pat nation and Belichick said that the in-game videoing wasn't possibly part of the wouldn't say it wholly exonerates them.

But then again, what was found out last week doesn't totally condemn them. Unfortunately in scenarios like this, we gravitate toward the extremes. Pat fans will say there were was zero effect of what went on, those out to lynch them will think that Belicheck just made this into his own World Wrestling Federation. In all likelyhood, the answer is in the middle. Information was illegally gathered to gain a competitve advantage. To what extent, means and end this occured, as long as remains shrouded, the vast majority of people will probably always fear the worst.

One thing is clear though, it worse than this BS non-defense he's tossing up there now about "misinterpertations" and whatnot. After playing with fire last year between the Detroit and Green Bay complaints, he wouldn't toe this close to the edge without getting something out of it. How much, if it was necessary, etc, again, who knows, but it would be madness to think otherwise.

One last thing, Dr. Z had this in one of his recent columns, and just casually watching games take place Foxboro over the years, this seems to happen quite a bit there:

"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.

"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."

Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.

"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."

Their reputations are smudged but could recover. If this sort of tomfoolery shakes out true, I don't care how many road games they win, how "great" Brady is, how great a game planner Belichick WAS, the whole thing is gone. They'll be champs on the page, like Barry Bonds is the HR king, but no one outisde of the team homers will take it seriously at all.

you missed the entire premise of what I intended because you obviously hate the Patriots. Go on hating and enjoy your season.

No I didn't, but here are the cliff notes, they aren't hall of fame PEOPLE. Don't act like you care if they are and don't act whatever good they have in them precludes them from being part of a rule stretch. Vinny Testaverde is as good a guy as you'll find, he's a family man who to my knowledge never left his chick pregant to cavort around with another woman. I could trudge deeper into the Pats personal piccadillos, its not my care or concern. I don't think they're bad guys, but your premise that they are Hall of Fame people is faultly, because if Vinny, the better guy, was plugged in ahead of Brady, the better player, you'd be outraged and rightfully so. As for hating the pats, I root for the Giants to I reserve hate for the NFC East. I never had an overwhelming opinon on Belichick either, other than to

1. respect him

2. appreciate him for succeed to dismantle and deflate the Parcells legend.

I have no bones to pick with him or the team because I don't really think about them.

HOWEVER

if the appearance of impropriety isn't enough to get our attention, then you are, well, what you are, a blind homer.

They are not Hall of Fame guys any more than any other team. And thats ok, I don't demand perfection in a players personal conduct, but nor do I tolerate jagoffery.

you seem to be tolerating yourself quite nicely. like I said, have a nice season.

How will I live without the approval of what I assume to be a grown man from New England who alternates his use of "hate" as a noun and a verb. Have fun with your head in the sand, maybe down there your team and coach have credibility still.

Im not from New England. and youve got some issues. get over it already.