STAR WARS: EP 7 ***SPOILER ZONE*** - Go here if you've seen it (1 Viewer)

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Would be cool if they had a bit of story in the next one talk about Vader hunting down some specific jedi

Hopefully Rouge 1 has some of that.

 

[Joe Summer]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge. Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

 

[cstu]

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

As I said, both of those can be easily justified...how many innocent children have been murdered in our drone attacks? If Anakin believes the Jedi are an evil organization that needs to be destroyed then he can justify the murder of children.

 

[The General]

I'm sure it's been said. It's like A New Hope II. So similar. I expected more.

We don't take kindly to folks who expect more around here.

 

[Joe Summer]

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

As I said, both of those can be easily justified...how many innocent children have been murdered in our drone attacks? If Anakin believes the Jedi are an evil organization that needs to be destroyed then he can justify the murder of children.

Once again, that illustrates a clear difference between "Original Trilogy Anakin" and "Prequel Anakin". Darth Vader killed people who actually threatened him; Anakin killed people who he believed to be a threat.

 

[bagger]

I think Rey is Kylos sister with her redeeming him in ix. After kylo defeats Luke in a light saber duel while Rey is leaving the 4th Death Star rescuing a prince.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Skywalkers are #### Jedis imo

They allow their emotions to cloud their judgement, which make them susceptible to the dark side...

 

[need2know]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

If you take the groundbreaking element away from A New Hope, this version was better imo

Maybe if you don't value interesting characters and a tight cohesive story, sure.

Even most of the folks with complaints think the Rey and Poe characters were good. Finn wasn't bad. Most complained about Ren. I don't get your no interesting characters complaint. Too similar to ANH and don't like the DeathStar 3 I get but I think the new characters are really good and all were well-acted.

Am I the only one that really liked Kylo?

There's probably about 2-5% normal fans that liked him and it would get bolstered to about 15-30% by teen fan girls drooling on the emo bad boy.

The wife did get me skinny boy jeans for christmas

Don't be mad at her. I went shopping a few pair of jeans not that long ago and it was NOT easy. Even though they were my size, some of them wouldn't even go over my calves they were so tight. It took me almost an hour to find two pair of jeans that were "normal".

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.

Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

 

[Insein]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

Yes we established early in this thread that Leia is the mother of all the new cast with various old cast members. Even the droids.

 

[need2know]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

Yes we established early in this thread that Leia is the mother of all the new cast with various old cast members. Even the droids.

Damn. What a freak

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

Yes we established early in this thread that Leia is the mother of all the new cast with various old cast members. Even the droids.

it was the gold bikini, man. like moths to a flame. even gave C-3PO a goldenrod.

 

[belljr]

Ok. Who was the old dude at the beginning?

Something with Anakin and the empire from 3? Who was the dark side lord guy?

Not a big star wars guy. Just got back from 7. It was enjoyable. Felt like a remake of 4

 

[Insein]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

Yes we established early in this thread that Leia is the mother of all the new cast with various old cast members. Even the droids.

it was the gold bikini, man. like moths to a flame. even gave C-3PO a goldenrod.

Well BB8 is Leia and R2D2's kid.

 

[Joe Summer]

Ok. Who was the old dude at the beginning?

His name is Lor San Tekka but his connection to the other characters is not explained. All we know is that he is a former explorer and a trusted ally of the Resistance who has known Leia for many years. He is not a Jedi but he is a member of the Church Of The Force.

 

[Psychopav]

The big moment of the film, Ben killing Han carries way to little weight because of the lack of any basis of their relationship. I felt no connection or emotion in Han's death scene other than Han is dead. Not why Ren killed him or why Solo loved him. Sure there's some exposition about their relationship but exposition doesn't give us an emotional connection, it isn't character development. It's just information. Leia was just explaining things to the audience, that was it. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of reciprocal love existing in that family - between father and son - before that final act irredeemably ripped it apart forever. If we could have seen Ben's love and admiration for his father, then his final hateful act would have carried a tragic weight. As is, it's too artificial, we know it's supposed to heartbreakingly tragic, but the biggest complaint I see from fans is that most people didn't feel it. I didn't feel it. It was just a shock to see a nostalgic hero die.

The script tried to show Kylo Rens inferiority complex, but with so many people upset that Ren is a weak villain, this message was lost on a lot. Perhaps people viewing the movie over and over again will bring to light just how important his inferiority complex is to his character. But really, my only complaint about the movie is how this important aspect about such an important character was left to just a few lines to establish. It would have been much better if perhaps when Han and Leia were talking, a flash back is shown where Ben is young and can't seem to please his father (Han), or believes he is a failure even though Han doesn't think he is. Then, in the scene where Ren kills Han, it would have been better if Ren surrendered even more than he did in the movie. Perhaps completely let go of the lightsaber... they hug... and then begin walking side by side, leading the audience to believe Han succeeded... perhaps then switch to a scene of the X-wings making progress... then go back to Ren and Han, where Ren says something like "I'm sorry I failed you" to which Han replies "Son, you never failed me", which hearing it infuriates Ren so much that in a split second the light saber is in his hand and in Han's gut. That would have done a much better job of establishing Ren's inferiority complex than him changing his mind with no dialogue. With such a weak death of Han scene, Ren just comes across as a ####, and we're left to Rey telling him that he's afraid he'll never be as powerful as Darth Vader to understand why he's such a weak villain. The lines are there explaining why he's so weak, which makes him such an interesting character. But it could have been built up better so he doesn't come across as a weak character like so many are comprehending him to be. Again, perhaps repeated viewings will help people understand how interesting he is because of his weaknesses.

He didn't change his mind imo. Just needed the strength to embrace the Dark Side (which is established in a couple prior scenes).

I'll grant that I'm not a Star Wars nerd to the degree that I've read as much EU stuff (can't believe I just typed that) as others here. So I could easily be wrong here.But what you said goes contrary to my understanding of the dark side. Yoda told Luke that the dark side is "easier":

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

If Ren is being torn between both sides like the scene suggests he was, he needed strength to choose his father over the dark side. He didn't need strength to embrace the dark side. He embraced the dark side in the scene because he was too weak not too.

I get that, but there are two scenes in the movie which explicitly refer to his need for strength to resist the sentimentality that ultimately did in Anakin (did in from the Dark Side perspective): the scene where he is praying to the ghost of/mask of Vader and the scene where Snoke talks to him about Han having the droid. Both scenes reference his ability to fight the urge to the Light Side.

 

[need2know]

The big moment of the film, Ben killing Han carries way to little weight because of the lack of any basis of their relationship. I felt no connection or emotion in Han's death scene other than Han is dead. Not why Ren killed him or why Solo loved him. Sure there's some exposition about their relationship but exposition doesn't give us an emotional connection, it isn't character development. It's just information. Leia was just explaining things to the audience, that was it. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of reciprocal love existing in that family - between father and son - before that final act irredeemably ripped it apart forever. If we could have seen Ben's love and admiration for his father, then his final hateful act would have carried a tragic weight. As is, it's too artificial, we know it's supposed to heartbreakingly tragic, but the biggest complaint I see from fans is that most people didn't feel it. I didn't feel it. It was just a shock to see a nostalgic hero die.

The script tried to show Kylo Rens inferiority complex, but with so many people upset that Ren is a weak villain, this message was lost on a lot. Perhaps people viewing the movie over and over again will bring to light just how important his inferiority complex is to his character. But really, my only complaint about the movie is how this important aspect about such an important character was left to just a few lines to establish. It would have been much better if perhaps when Han and Leia were talking, a flash back is shown where Ben is young and can't seem to please his father (Han), or believes he is a failure even though Han doesn't think he is. Then, in the scene where Ren kills Han, it would have been better if Ren surrendered even more than he did in the movie. Perhaps completely let go of the lightsaber... they hug... and then begin walking side by side, leading the audience to believe Han succeeded... perhaps then switch to a scene of the X-wings making progress... then go back to Ren and Han, where Ren says something like "I'm sorry I failed you" to which Han replies "Son, you never failed me", which hearing it infuriates Ren so much that in a split second the light saber is in his hand and in Han's gut. That would have done a much better job of establishing Ren's inferiority complex than him changing his mind with no dialogue. With such a weak death of Han scene, Ren just comes across as a ####, and we're left to Rey telling him that he's afraid he'll never be as powerful as Darth Vader to understand why he's such a weak villain. The lines are there explaining why he's so weak, which makes him such an interesting character. But it could have been built up better so he doesn't come across as a weak character like so many are comprehending him to be. Again, perhaps repeated viewings will help people understand how interesting he is because of his weaknesses.

He didn't change his mind imo. Just needed the strength to embrace the Dark Side (which is established in a couple prior scenes).

I'll grant that I'm not a Star Wars nerd to the degree that I've read as much EU stuff (can't believe I just typed that) as others here. So I could easily be wrong here.But what you said goes contrary to my understanding of the dark side. Yoda told Luke that the dark side is "easier":

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

If Ren is being torn between both sides like the scene suggests he was, he needed strength to choose his father over the dark side. He didn't need strength to embrace the dark side. He embraced the dark side in the scene because he was too weak not too.

I get that, but there are two scenes in the movie which explicitly refer to his need for strength to resist the sentimentality that ultimately did in Anakin (did in from the Dark Side perspective): the scene where he is praying to the ghost of/mask of Vader and the scene where Snoke talks to him about Han having the droid. Both scenes reference his ability to fight the urge to the Light Side.

Yes he actually showed strength by fighting the light

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Snoke says nobody has ever been challenged like Kylo Ren

 

[parasaurolophus]

Such an unoriginal story, but I loved it.

When the xwings come over the water i got goosebumps and felt like a little kid again. It is amazing the connection my generation has to those first movies, so much so that a complete copy of them is revered.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Just got back from my second viewing and noticed two things I missed before

* When Han and Rey arrive on Maz's planet, Rey says she did not believe there was that much green in the galaxy. Ford played his look like he felt sad for her, almost feeling bad that she was left on Jakuu

* When Kylo is reading Rey's mind he says "you have been dreaming about an ocean and an island". The last scene they find Luke on an island in what looks like a vast ocean.

I agree with others that it is definitely the junk dealer in the flash back.

I also agree that Kylo's reaction was over the top when he heard about "the girl" but Driver never played it that he knew her after that scene as I watched closely for some clues.

Serkis also gives no indication through dialouge or movement that Snoke knows who Rey is.

 

[dparker713]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge. Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

Pretty sure your opinion of this is colored by nostalgia. There is almost nothing in the original trilogy where Vader is anything less than evil.

 

[Rohn Jambo]

Just got back from my second viewing and noticed two things I missed before

* When Han and Rey arrive on Maz's planet, Rey says she did not believe there was that much green in the galaxy. Ford played his look like he felt sad for her, almost feeling bad that she was left on Jakuu

* When Kylo is reading Rey's mind he says "you have been dreaming about an ocean and an island". The last scene they find Luke on an island in what looks like a vast ocean.

I agree with others that it is definitely the junk dealer in the flash back.

I also agree that Kylo's reaction was over the top when he heard about "the girl" but Driver never played it that he knew her after that scene as I watched closely for some clues.

Serkis also gives no indication through dialouge or movement that Snoke knows who Rey is.

As previously mentioned in another post, Unkar Plutt gave her top notch Jedi training on Jakku.

 

[dschuler]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge. Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

Pretty sure your opinion of this is colored by nostalgia. There is almost nothing in the original trilogy where Vader is anything less than evil.

Really? It's all over episode III. He is clearly conflicted between the force and dark side. Just an all around powerhouse and not the ##### that Kylo Ren is. He killed the emperor for crying out loud. I would argue he had more impact for the good than any other Jedi in the original series. He birthed Luke Skywalker, and killed the most powerful being in the whole series.

 

[dparker713]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge. Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

Pretty sure your opinion of this is colored by nostalgia. There is almost nothing in the original trilogy where Vader is anything less than evil.

Really? It's all over episode III. He is clearly conflicted between the force and dark side. Just an all around powerhouse and not the ##### that Kylo Ren is. He killed the emperor for crying out loud. I would argue he had more impact for the good than any other Jedi in the original series. He birthed Luke Skywalker, and killed the most powerful being in the whole series.

He slaughters a bunch of baby Jedi in episode 3.And killing one evil dude hardly balances the scales in ROTJ

 

[PatsWillWin]

If yoda and the Jedi council were so strong with the force, how did they not recognize the dark side with the chancellor?

Clouds everything, the dark side does.

 

[KarmaPolice]

If yoda and the Jedi council were so strong with the force, how did they not recognize the dark side with the chancellor?

Clouds everything, the dark side does.

I get maybe not picking up on it in a planet to a destroyer distance, but in the same damn room?

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge.Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

This is really weird. Vader killed people like it was a bodily function. Him choking a guy to death asking him where Leia was is literally the first thing you see him do in the Star Wars universe. He killed people for screwing up at work, he plotted to convert (or kill) his own son, and followed just about every order the Emperor, the guy you point out as truly the evil one, to a T until the finale in #6. Maybe he didn't order Alderaan being destroyed, resulting in the deaths of billions, but we don't let Nazi's off the hook for that.

And I'm too lazy to quote another post, but it's also dumb to say that he was "justified" in wiping out an entire tribe of sandpeople because they kidnapped/tortured his mother. He didn't do it because it was justice, he did it because he was enraged. If you imagine that he wiped out entire families, including kid-sandpeople, not sure on what planet that's considered justice.

And Han was tortured, you see it, with Vader standing right there, and after Han says that they didn't even ask him any questions. They just tortured him for ####s n giggles.

Vader was a ####. If anything, his last minute change of heart to be good is what could be viewed as a stretch.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If yoda and the Jedi council were so strong with the force, how did they not recognize the dark side with the chancellor?

Clouds everything, the dark side does.

I get maybe not picking up on it in a planet to a destroyer distance, but in the same damn room?

This is where I get confused as to what fictional things people want explained and what they don't. Does it bother you that you don't understand how a Jedi can pick up a rock with their brain? No, it doesn't. They can because the movies say they can. The movies also say that the Dark Side makes #### cloudy and difficult to sense.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

Exactly. It's probably going to happen with Rey, but if Finn is also someone's son, I think I may be out.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you recall, even Vader was conflicted. But Vader was also a Sith, with a Master that influenced and controlled him.

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, nor did he kill Han or Chewie when he had the chance on Bespin. That's what made him redeemable. He was a bad guy, but he wasn't evil in the way that the Emperor or Grand Moff Tarkin were.That's a stark contrast to Kylo Ren, who had little problem killing his own father (not to mention the way he coldheartedly ordered the execution of innocent villagers on Jakku).

He killed Kenobi, his mentor, didn't care when Alderaan was destroyed, and tortured Leia in 4. He tortured Han and the encased him in carbonite without care of the potential to kill him and then he chopped off his own sons hand in 5. And let's recall he stops the fight on Bespin to turn Luke and get him to join him in killing his master. There's every indication that he's willing to kill Luke on that bridge.Frankly, rewatching the entire first trilogy, seeing Anakin alongside Ben and Yoda at the end is rather jarring. After all the bad stuff he does his full redemption just by destroying the emperor seems a bit unearned.

Even at his worst, the Darth Vader in the original trilogy was not as evil as Tarkin or the Emperor. Everything he did fell within a certain "code of conduct" that made redemption possible. He never killed anyone who was truly innocent. Obi-Wan Kenobi wasn't innocent -- he was attacking the Empire! (Plus, Darth knew that he wasn't really "killing" Ben.) Leia and Han were both interrogated but we don't know if they were really "tortured" or not (maybe it was just spacewaterboarding??)And in the battle with Luke, he specifically says "Don't make me destroy you". He doesn't want to kill Luke.

And the Alderaan stuff really illustrates the difference between "bad guy (Vader) and "evil" (Tarkin). Vader never pushed to use the Death Star! In fact, he dismissed its value (calling it "insignificant" compared to the Force). Tarkin is the one who makes the decision to fire on both Alderaan and the Rebel Base.

The point is: Vader never crossed a certain line in the original trilogy. Maybe he was evil, maybe he wasn't. The original trilogy is vague enough that it allows fans to believe that Vader does have some good in him.

But Vader crossed that line in the prequels when he murdered innocent sandpeople and youngling Jedis. George Lucas removed all subtlety and turned Anakin into a truly despicable character.

Pretty sure your opinion of this is colored by nostalgia. There is almost nothing in the original trilogy where Vader is anything less than evil.

Really? It's all over episode III. He is clearly conflicted between the force and dark side. Just an all around powerhouse and not the ##### that Kylo Ren is. He killed the emperor for crying out loud. I would argue he had more impact for the good than any other Jedi in the original series. He birthed Luke Skywalker, and killed the most powerful being in the whole series.

He slaughters a bunch of baby Jedi in episode 3.And killing one evil dude hardly balances the scales in ROTJ

He didn't even kill him because he was evil. He was fine with him being evil. He killed him because the evil guy was going to kill his son. It's laudable, but it doesn't mean he was planting a flag for good.

Congratulations - you are not willing to stand aside and let your boss slowly murder your son. I'm pretty sure the 2nd most evil SOB in the galaxy wouldn't let that happen, not exactly worth a merit badge.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Luke/Anakin Relationship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA

 

[Capella]

I always had a big issue with Anakin showing up next to Obi-wan and Yoda at the end, and then having a proud smile. Funny to see it discussed here. He was really ####ty, feel good filmmaking. Perfect Lucas ending

My atheist buddy says the ending is a religious allegory "find salvation even for the worst" and I guess it could be.

 

[Tom Servo]

I'm going to leave this here for discussion...

/Film have managed to get their hands on the script of The Force Awakens, released to members of the Writers Guild of America for award consideration—and it offers some intriguing small tidbits about the final scene of the film, where Rey encounters the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker for the first time. According to the script, the planet Luke has been hiding on for years is called “Ahch-To”, and is described as having a “pristine and mighty OCEAN” with “endless BLUE, dotted with random, beautiful, mountainous BLACK ROCK ISLANDS, dotted with countless GREEN TREES.” Although the planet has not featured in Star Wars lore before, the site also points out that “Ahch” is the hebrew word for “Brother.”

The other insight is that when Luke turns around and sees Rey for the first time, the Jedi is meant to have instantly recognized who she is and why she was there, implying that Luke already had some semblance of history with Rey (which would make sense, if she was one of his potential Padawans in the New Jedi Order before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side). There’s also an implication that Luke thinks Rey’s presence on Ahch-to could be a bad thing, in the final line of the script:

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Anakin's redemption is a little more complicated than is being made.

Remember what Obi-Wan said:

Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be the Jedi Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

But he was wrong about that and Luke knew it. He knew that there was still some Anakin left in Vader and it was THAT goodness that Luke reached.

So ultimately Anakin not only destroyed the Emperor but Vader too.

And that, again, is what I think the whole story is about. The Jedi were wrong when they taught their pupils to bury their feelings. It was Luke's philosophy that we need to acknowledge our dark side but master it that allowed the Force to be in balance - and by extension save his father.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Is this correct?

Jakuu: Desert planet Rey lives on

Hosnian: System where New Republic fleet and senate are located and is blown up

D'Qar: Where Leia and the resistance are based

Takodana: Maz's planet

Ahch-To: Where Luke is

 

[FUBAR]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

I hope Fin isn't. Waaaay too much of a coincidence.

Surely Finn is the offspring of Leia and Lando.Leia has pretty much acknowledged ####### the entire cast.

Yes we established early in this thread that Leia is the mother of all the new cast with various old cast members. Even the droids.

it was the gold bikini, man. like moths to a flame. even gave C-3PO a goldenrod.

Is his red arm spacegonorrhea?

 

[FUBAR]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

Exactly. It's probably going to happen with Rey, but if Finn is also someone's son, I think I may be out.

I'm mostly inclined to agree but finn being mace's son might help explain how he was able to overcome the lifelong brainwashing. Even if he's not highly force sensitive, the little bit he might have could give him the fortitude to overcome. Of course that would mean another Jedi didn't live by the monk code.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I'm going to leave this here for discussion...

/Film have managed to get their hands on the script of The Force Awakens, released to members of the Writers Guild of America for award considerationand it offers some intriguing small tidbits about the final scene of the film, where Rey encounters the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker for the first time. According to the script, the planet Luke has been hiding on for years is called Ahch-To, and is described as having a pristine and mighty OCEAN with endless BLUE, dotted with random, beautiful, mountainous BLACK ROCK ISLANDS, dotted with countless GREEN TREES. Although the planet has not featured in Star Wars lore before, the site also points out that Ahch is the hebrew word for Brother.

The other insight is that when Luke turns around and sees Rey for the first time, the Jedi is meant to have instantly recognized who she is and why she was there, implying that Luke already had some semblance of history with Rey (which would make sense, if she was one of his potential Padawans in the New Jedi Order before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side). Theres also an implication that Luke thinks Reys presence on Ahch-to could be a bad thing, in the final line of the script:

What's the final line?

 

[Insein]

I'm going to leave this here for discussion...

/Film have managed to get their hands on the script of The Force Awakens, released to members of the Writers Guild of America for award considerationand it offers some intriguing small tidbits about the final scene of the film, where Rey encounters the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker for the first time. According to the script, the planet Luke has been hiding on for years is called Ahch-To, and is described as having a pristine and mighty OCEAN with endless BLUE, dotted with random, beautiful, mountainous BLACK ROCK ISLANDS, dotted with countless GREEN TREES. Although the planet has not featured in Star Wars lore before, the site also points out that Ahch is the hebrew word for Brother.

The other insight is that when Luke turns around and sees Rey for the first time, the Jedi is meant to have instantly recognized who she is and why she was there, implying that Luke already had some semblance of history with Rey (which would make sense, if she was one of his potential Padawans in the New Jedi Order before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side). Theres also an implication that Luke thinks Reys presence on Ahch-to could be a bad thing, in the final line of the script:

What's the final line?

"Oh ####"

 

[ScottNorwood]

Maybe Fin and Rey were virgin births orchestrated by the midiclorians

 

[No. 4]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

Exactly. It's probably going to happen with Rey, but if Finn is also someone's son, I think I may be out.

I'm mostly inclined to agree but finn being mace's son might help explain how he was able to overcome the lifelong brainwashing. Even if he's not highly force sensitive, the little bit he might have could give him the fortitude to overcome. Of course that would mean another Jedi didn't live by the monk code.

Mace was killed before Luke and Leia were born. Finn would look their age if this were true. Am I right?

 

[ScottNorwood]

Finn gets the award for sweatiest Star Wars character

 

[Insein]

Finn gets the award for sweatiest Star Wars character

Chewie

 

[[scooter]]

I'm going to leave this here for discussion...

/Film have managed to get their hands on the script of The Force Awakens, released to members of the Writers Guild of America for award considerationand it offers some intriguing small tidbits about the final scene of the film, where Rey encounters the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker for the first time. According to the script, the planet Luke has been hiding on for years is called Ahch-To, and is described as having a pristine and mighty OCEAN with endless BLUE, dotted with random, beautiful, mountainous BLACK ROCK ISLANDS, dotted with countless GREEN TREES. Although the planet has not featured in Star Wars lore before, the site also points out that Ahch is the hebrew word for Brother.

The other insight is that when Luke turns around and sees Rey for the first time, the Jedi is meant to have instantly recognized who she is and why she was there, implying that Luke already had some semblance of history with Rey (which would make sense, if she was one of his potential Padawans in the New Jedi Order before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side). Theres also an implication that Luke thinks Reys presence on Ahch-to could be a bad thing, in the final line of the script:

What's the final line?

After Rey pulls Luke’s lightsaber from her pack, the script describes her holding it out to him as “An offer. A plea. The galaxy’s only hope.” And of course the script ends on “HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER’S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise of an adventure, just beginning…”

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm going to leave this here for discussion...

/Film have managed to get their hands on the script of The Force Awakens, released to members of the Writers Guild of America for award considerationand it offers some intriguing small tidbits about the final scene of the film, where Rey encounters the legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker for the first time. According to the script, the planet Luke has been hiding on for years is called Ahch-To, and is described as having a pristine and mighty OCEAN with endless BLUE, dotted with random, beautiful, mountainous BLACK ROCK ISLANDS, dotted with countless GREEN TREES. Although the planet has not featured in Star Wars lore before, the site also points out that Ahch is the hebrew word for Brother.

The other insight is that when Luke turns around and sees Rey for the first time, the Jedi is meant to have instantly recognized who she is and why she was there, implying that Luke already had some semblance of history with Rey (which would make sense, if she was one of his potential Padawans in the New Jedi Order before Ben Solo fell to the Dark Side). Theres also an implication that Luke thinks Reys presence on Ahch-to could be a bad thing, in the final line of the script:

What's the final line?

"I thought they said they were sending an Asian girl..."

 

[Thunderlips]

Finn gets the award for sweatiest Star Wars character

It's a long time ago in a galaxy far away....they haven't invented talcum powder yet.

 

[FUBAR]

I kinda hope rey is not related to any of them. Same for finn. Everyone doesn't have to be related.

Exactly. It's probably going to happen with Rey, but if Finn is also someone's son, I think I may be out.

I'm mostly inclined to agree but finn being mace's son might help explain how he was able to overcome the lifelong brainwashing. Even if he's not highly force sensitive, the little bit he might have could give him the fortitude to overcome. Of course that would mean another Jedi didn't live by the monk code.

Mace was killed before Luke and Leia were born. Finn would look their age if this were true. Am I right?

Good point.

Grandson.

 

[GoFishTN]

Is this correct?

Jakuu: Desert planet Rey lives on

Hosnian: System where New Republic fleet and senate are located and is blown up

D'Qar: Where Leia and the resistance are based

Takodana: Maz's planet

Ahch-To: Where Luke is

Gesundheit.