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Stat Question - I think I was robbed of a week 1 win, commish disagree (1 Viewer)

Cyclones

Footballguy
So the way our league is set up, D/ST is a single entity and they score as a team - ie, if Julian Edelman runs a punt back for a TD, the NE DST would get 6 points.

I started Welker last week, and our site docked him 2 points for the muffed punt. I lost the game by 1 point. I called our commish and he said he accepts whatever the website does. I argued that in no way should a guy receive negative points on a play where there was no possibility for him to get any positive points. Do I have a legit gripe, and if so, what have folks done in the past when something like this happens? It's a $250 buy in league and 4 teams make the playoffs, so there isn't much room for losses and I certainly don't want to take one that isn't justified. Thoughts?

 
So essentially it was probably a bad rule setup that should have been caught by myself (or someone else) before the season started. I can live with that, just frustrating to know that I have a guy out there returning kicks with nothing but downside. I guess we will correct next year.

As for rules, it shows

Fumbles lost (-2) points under the heading "Receiving Rules." In my opinion since Welker wasn't acting as a receiver during the play, that shouldn't count against him.

There is nothing defined under special teams regarding negative points at all.

Special Teams Rules

Category Special Teams Rule Modified Kickoff Return Touchdowns 1 rule defined:
For position: Def/STs

  • 6.0 point(s) for each kickoff return touchdown
9/5/2012 9:31 pm Punt Return Touchdowns 1 rule defined:
For position: Def/STs

  • 6.0 point(s) for each punt return touchdown
9/5/2012 9:31 pm Length of Kickoff Return Touchdowns No rules defined. Length of Punt Return Touchdowns No rules defined. Total Punt Return Yardage No rules defined. Total Kickoff Return Yardage No rules defined. Total Combined Kickoff And Punt Return Yardage No rules defined.

 
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This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.

 
You are stuck wit hit. But I don't like that kind of rule setup either.

For my leagues, years ago after issues came up, I changed it. It is no longer D/ST, it is simply DEF. Return TD's are credited to the player. (yards are not, typically, but can be if people want a return yards league). Fumbles are always counted against the player who lost the fumble (per official scoring, yes that can be annoying when it's on the QB/RB handoff and you think it wasn't your guy's fault)

 
While you're at it, get Individual Punt and Kick Return TDs added to your individual scoring. No reason a player AND DST shouldn't receive those points.

 
Can't go changing scoring rules mid-season.
As a commish, i think it's early enough to change it going forward. This outcome stands but obviously if you have a rule that may have future negative repercussions, probably best to knock it out now. Live and learn.

 
This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.
Except that it shows a penalty of -2 points under "Receiving Rules." There is a separate rules section for passing, rushing, receiving, defense, special teams, and kicking. I think the rule reads that there shouldn't be a -2 in that case and the site is calculating the penalty in contradiction to the way the rules are written.

 
I think the person you played would be more irate than you are currently if the commish just decided "Nah, we're gonna change that. You lost."

 
You have no gripe. Move on. I would take the time to call attention and fix the problem going forward, but to try and change your loss would be poor form.

 
BlueDredSo said:
I think the person you played would be more irate than you are currently if the commish just decided "Nah, we're gonna change that. You lost."
No doubt, and I can understand if the rules in the DST section showed a negative for the player losing the fumble. But the way they are written, there are no negatives defined for DST. The headers are clearly marked by category, and under "Receiving Rules" it shows -2 for the player, but Welker isn't a receiver on that play.....I'll probably get over it and we will have to do something next year to account for the site not calculating correctly.

 
BlueDredSo said:
I think the person you played would be more irate than you are currently if the commish just decided "Nah, we're gonna change that. You lost."
No doubt, and I can understand if the rules in the DST section showed a negative for the player losing the fumble. But the way they are written, there are no negatives defined for DST. The headers are clearly marked by category, and under "Receiving Rules" it shows -2 for the player, but Welker isn't a receiver on that play.....I'll probably get over it and we will have to do something next year to account for the site not calculating correctly.
If you're playing DST/ST as a unit I don't see how an individual player can get negative points when they are out there on special teams. The negative points, if any are given, should go to the DST/ST unit. The fact that they're being taken away from your WR and NOT the DST/ST to me means you have a solid case to ask your commish to correct the scoring so it follows your stated rules. Just because the website does something hinky that doesn't follow the way the rules setup states it, doesn't mean you should be penalized.

It's not that I can't see the other side of this, he was started in your WR slot and WRs get -2 for fumbling, which he did. However, in my opinion that's not what that rule means. Look at it this way, if you had a player in your WR slot who also played CB and he made an interception and then fumbled it away, with the current logic that means the DST gets +2 (or whatever) for the INT, but then your individual WR loses 2 points for the fumble. It makes no sense.

 
Yes you have a gripe...I adjusted the Welker teams score by +2

If it has never been in your rules why penalize a player when same player would get no points for return yardage or a TD

 
Yes you have a gripe...I adjusted the Welker teams score by +2

If it has never been in your rules why penalize a player when same player would get no points for return yardage or a TD
That's the thing that's not clear, although I think said player or any player gets no points for returns......it's just the Team D/special teams that scores??

I used to hate watching Dez return kicks and punts in one of my leagues. Number 1, he was bound to get hurt, number 2, rules did not allow tds for specific players on these returns....if there's no skin in the act of returning the ball, why penalize him?

Same thing happened to me, Dez got docked for a fumble, I asked the commish to table it for off season agenda, and it was agreed to address in the off-season. its just the point differential that stings here ofr the OP< which we can all see.

 
Yes you have a gripe...I adjusted the Welker teams score by +2

If it has never been in your rules why penalize a player when same player would get no points for return yardage or a TD
That's the thing that's not clear, although I think said player or any player gets no points for returns......it's just the Team D/special teams that scores??

I used to hate watching Dez return kicks and punts in one of my leagues. Number 1, he was bound to get hurt, number 2, rules did not allow tds for specific players on these returns....if there's no skin in the act of returning the ball, why penalize him?

Same thing happened to me, Dez got docked for a fumble, I asked the commish to table it for off season agenda, and it was agreed to address in the off-season. its just the point differential that stings here ofr the OP< which we can all see.
The thing is, to me the way the rules are stated ARE clear. There are no negative points for DST, and players are docked 2 points if they fumble as a "Receiver." Now semantics could come into play if that section was titled "Wide Receiver Rules" and he fumbled. But they are titled by task, not position - Passing Rules, Rushing Rules, Receiving Rules, Kicking Rules, DST rules. Since Welker isn't a receiver on that play, there should be no negative. The site is just programmed incorrectly.

 
meyerj31 said:
This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.
This. End of story.

 
BlueDredSo said:
I think the person you played would be more irate than you are currently if the commish just decided "Nah, we're gonna change that. You lost."
No doubt, and I can understand if the rules in the DST section showed a negative for the player losing the fumble. But the way they are written, there are no negatives defined for DST. The headers are clearly marked by category, and under "Receiving Rules" it shows -2 for the player, but Welker isn't a receiver on that play.....I'll probably get over it and we will have to do something next year to account for the site not calculating correctly.
If you're playing DST/ST as a unit I don't see how an individual player can get negative points when they are out there on special teams. The negative points, if any are given, should go to the DST/ST unit. The fact that they're being taken away from your WR and NOT the DST/ST to me means you have a solid case to ask your commish to correct the scoring so it follows your stated rules. Just because the website does something hinky that doesn't follow the way the rules setup states it, doesn't mean you should be penalized.

It's not that I can't see the other side of this, he was started in your WR slot and WRs get -2 for fumbling, which he did. However, in my opinion that's not what that rule means. Look at it this way, if you had a player in your WR slot who also played CB and he made an interception and then fumbled it away, with the current logic that means the DST gets +2 (or whatever) for the INT, but then your individual WR loses 2 points for the fumble. It makes no sense.
This.

 
meyerj31 said:
This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.
This. End of story.
No, the rules aren't written that way at all, and you can't do "test runs" of the website in the preseason to try and account for glitches in their code.

 
I just looked at my league, we use CBS and their scoring setup sates, "(FL) Fumble Lost, Including ST plays" and there's no option for a "no including ST plays". The Welker owner got docked for a fumble. I'm going to manually correct it now.

[SIZE=11.818181991577148px]As to if this should have been done before the season, c'mon, who can predict that the site will calculate things that are seemingly at odds with the description Based on an issue I saw brought up on these forums last year, I have a statement in our constitution now that says things can be corrected before the start of the next week's games, but after that they are final.[/SIZE]

 
meyerj31 said:
This would have been a great thing to recognize and fix before the season started. If a guy fumbles, he fumbles, and it counts against him. Sucks for you but that's the way the rules were written, and the season started.
This. End of story.
No, the rules aren't written that way at all, and you can't do "test runs" of the website in the preseason to try and account for glitches in their code.
I agree with the OP here...the rules seem to be in defined for their league, just not reflected properly on the site.

Not sure I understand why people think it's changing the rules to give Welker his 2 points back...seems like it would be re-defining the rules to count the fumble against him to me.

I guess an argument could be made that receiving the punt can be included in "Recieving Rules".

 
Kind of a bummer for you but I too would have ruled as your commissioner did.
So your answer would have been "sorry, I know the software scored the -2 in direct contradiction to our stated rules, but that's the breaks?"

Here's a question, based on the way the rules are stated, if you were manually scoring games as the commish using NFL.com boxscores, would you have docked Welker 2 points? I think that's the only question to answer here.

 
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this is why i asked what the rules say not what the site setup is

is there a rules document?

if not you have to rely on site setup and word of mouth, which sucks

for a $40 that is fine, for a $250 not so much

 
Yes you have a gripe...I adjusted the Welker teams score by +2

If it has never been in your rules why penalize a player when same player would get no points for return yardage or a TD
That's the thing that's not clear, although I think said player or any player gets no points for returns......it's just the Team D/special teams that scores??

I used to hate watching Dez return kicks and punts in one of my leagues. Number 1, he was bound to get hurt, number 2, rules did not allow tds for specific players on these returns....if there's no skin in the act of returning the ball, why penalize him?

Same thing happened to me, Dez got docked for a fumble, I asked the commish to table it for off season agenda, and it was agreed to address in the off-season. its just the point differential that stings here ofr the OP< which we can all see.
The thing is, to me the way the rules are stated ARE clear. There are no negative points for DST, and players are docked 2 points if they fumble as a "Receiver." Now semantics could come into play if that section was titled "Wide Receiver Rules" and he fumbled. But they are titled by task, not position - Passing Rules, Rushing Rules, Receiving Rules, Kicking Rules, DST rules. Since Welker isn't a receiver on that play, there should be no negative. The site is just programmed incorrectly.
Just to play devil's advocate - I'm sure the owner who got the win would point out that the rule is titled "Receiving Rules" and that Welker was receiving the punt.

 
This happened in our league too. Its the way cbs does it and although it doesnt make sense I agree with his ruling :ptts:

 
If your rules are that return scoring goes to the D/ST, then it sounds like the setup on the site doesn't match your league's rule. Either that, or the site plain doesn't support that aspect of your league's scoring system.

If the site can handle it but it's just an incorrect setup, and it's caught week 1 then as commish I would fix it. For instance, if you're on MFL, then your commish used the "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost" category when he should have used "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" when he did scoring for WRs. If that's the case it should be fixed. If it was week 8, then you are in a hairier situation. But you're not.

If you are using a less capable site doesn't allow distinction between fumbles on offense/defense/special teams... then you're stuck with either doing what the site allows, or the commish having to do manual corrections all year. If this, I'd suggest going with what the site can support. Barring that, the commish would have to do manual edits as needed, and your league will have to add a new rule immediately to clarify what the new official source for data is that supersedes your host site. (Which is why I'd recommend just staying within what the site can handle.)

 
From cbs:

Why was my offensive player penalized for a fumble that occured on Special Teams? The NFL does not differentiate fumbles between offense and special teams. The official stat sheet only shows that the player fumbled the ball. If a player fumbles, it will be counted against them whether they are on offense or special teams. The only way to correct this is to make manual adjustments to your league's scoring by going to the Live Scoring page and clicking the Adjust Scoring link at the bottom of the page.
 
Kind of a bummer for you but I too would have ruled as your commissioner did.
So your answer would have been "sorry, I know the software scored the -2 in direct contradiction to our stated rules, but that's the breaks?"

Here's a question, based on the way the rules are stated, if you were manually scoring games as the commish using NFL.com boxscores, would you have docked Welker 2 points? I think that's the only question to answer here.
You should go with whatever your official stat source says.

In your hypothetical, it's NFL.com's boxscore. In your real league, it's your league host site. So the answer to the hypothetical is different than the answer to your situation.

 
^^ There's your answer.

The NFL and the stat book don't differentiate how a fumble happened. So you own the player -- you own the fumble.

 
If your rules are that return scoring goes to the D/ST, then it sounds like the setup on the site doesn't match your league's rule. Either that, or the site plain doesn't support that aspect of your league's scoring system.

If the site can handle it but it's just an incorrect setup, and it's caught week 1 then as commish I would fix it. For instance, if you're on MFL, then your commish used the "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost" category when he should have used "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" when he did scoring for WRs. If that's the case it should be fixed. If it was week 8, then you are in a hairier situation. But you're not.

If you are using a less capable site doesn't allow distinction between fumbles on offense/defense/special teams... then you're stuck with either doing what the site allows, or the commish having to do manual corrections all year. If this, I'd suggest going with what the site can support. Barring that, the commish would have to do manual edits as needed, and your league will have to add a new rule immediately to clarify what the new official source for data is that supersedes your host site. (Which is why I'd recommend just staying within what the site can handle.)
The way i see it, league rules should trump limitations of software in calculating scores.
 
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I think the score should be changed. You're not changing the rules mid-season. You're correcting the website which is making a mistake when applying the rules.

If I read that right, the -2 only applies to receiving. Welker was not a receiver on that play; he was part of special teams, which awards no individual scoring in your league. For some reason, the website isn't applying your league rules properly.

For those who disagree, imagine that instead of using website scoring, the league had an owner who did all the scores by hand. In that case, the Commish would go "Hey, man, you made a mistake here. That -2 should have gone to the special teams. The -2 for Welker would only apply if he was a receiver. See?" And the guy would go "Oh, sorry man. I'll fix it." And that would be it. But because it's a website system it's infallible?

Unfortunately, your real problem is a weak commissioner. "I'm just going by what the site says" is a cop-out and a sign that your commish is lazy. If you're just going to go by what the site says -- even when it's clearly wrong-- why have a commissioner at all?

 
We use Yahoo. And this was yahoo's answer to our commish.

[SIZE=12pt]The NFL has ruled that Wes Welker has lost the fumble on his return. If a player loses a fumble on offense, defense, or special teams, that player will lose points for a lost fumble if your league has set fumbles lost as a negative category.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Luckly, I was up a bunch and didn't have to rely on this change.[/SIZE]

 
If your rules are that return scoring goes to the D/ST, then it sounds like the setup on the site doesn't match your league's rule. Either that, or the site plain doesn't support that aspect of your league's scoring system.

If the site can handle it but it's just an incorrect setup, and it's caught week 1 then as commish I would fix it. For instance, if you're on MFL, then your commish used the "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost" category when he should have used "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" when he did scoring for WRs. If that's the case it should be fixed. If it was week 8, then you are in a hairier situation. But you're not.

If you are using a less capable site doesn't allow distinction between fumbles on offense/defense/special teams... then you're stuck with either doing what the site allows, or the commish having to do manual corrections all year. If this, I'd suggest going with what the site can support. Barring that, the commish would have to do manual edits as needed, and your league will have to add a new rule immediately to clarify what the new official source for data is that supersedes your host site. (Which is why I'd recommend just staying within what the site can handle.)
The way i see it, league rules should trump limitations of software in calculating scores.
The way I see it people should stop paying twice as much for CBS when it can't handle what should be basic functionality, and then have the balls to blame the NFL's stats for their product's shortcomings.

 
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Havent read through the whole thread to see if this has been stated but for me it comes down to one question.

If Welker returns a punt for a TD do you get the 6 pts?

In my league you would as would anybody who has Den D/Special Teams. And if Welker loses a fumble, either on offense or special teams, you lose 2 pts. If you dont get the individual points then I think you have a legit gripe but it's something that must be addressed in the off-season.

ETA- Looks like I should brush up on my reading comp and your league does not award individuals for return TDs, which IMO is a bad rule and in a small way is evidenced by this situation. So you have a legit gripe BUT should have been addressed before the season.

 
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Check the league rules. If you do not get the TD if he would have ran the punt back for a score, you should not lose points for the fumble. Like has been said, league rules trump everything, including the software that may have been flawed, but can be changed.

 
Yes you have a gripe...I adjusted the Welker teams score by +2

If it has never been in your rules why penalize a player when same player would get no points for return yardage or a TD
That's the thing that's not clear, although I think said player or any player gets no points for returns......it's just the Team D/special teams that scores??

I used to hate watching Dez return kicks and punts in one of my leagues. Number 1, he was bound to get hurt, number 2, rules did not allow tds for specific players on these returns....if there's no skin in the act of returning the ball, why penalize him?

Same thing happened to me, Dez got docked for a fumble, I asked the commish to table it for off season agenda, and it was agreed to address in the off-season. its just the point differential that stings here ofr the OP< which we can all see.
The thing is, to me the way the rules are stated ARE clear. There are no negative points for DST, and players are docked 2 points if they fumble as a "Receiver." Now semantics could come into play if that section was titled "Wide Receiver Rules" and he fumbled. But they are titled by task, not position - Passing Rules, Rushing Rules, Receiving Rules, Kicking Rules, DST rules. Since Welker isn't a receiver on that play, there should be no negative. The site is just programmed incorrectly.
I totally jive with your thinking here. Any reasonable & sharp commissioner should see the errant scoring based on how the scoring rules are laid out and should fix it.

 
If your rules are that return scoring goes to the D/ST, then it sounds like the setup on the site doesn't match your league's rule. Either that, or the site plain doesn't support that aspect of your league's scoring system.

If the site can handle it but it's just an incorrect setup, and it's caught week 1 then as commish I would fix it. For instance, if you're on MFL, then your commish used the "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost" category when he should have used "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" when he did scoring for WRs. If that's the case it should be fixed. If it was week 8, then you are in a hairier situation. But you're not.

If you are using a less capable site doesn't allow distinction between fumbles on offense/defense/special teams... then you're stuck with either doing what the site allows, or the commish having to do manual corrections all year. If this, I'd suggest going with what the site can support. Barring that, the commish would have to do manual edits as needed, and your league will have to add a new rule immediately to clarify what the new official source for data is that supersedes your host site. (Which is why I'd recommend just staying within what the site can handle.)
The way i see it, league rules should trump limitations of software in calculating scores.
The way I see it people should stop paying twice as much for CBS when it can't handle what should be basic functionality, and then have the balls to blame the NFL's stats for their product's shortcomings.
Bingo.

I'd overturn this. Whoever said "spirit of the rule" was right on.

 
If your rules are that return scoring goes to the D/ST, then it sounds like the setup on the site doesn't match your league's rule. Either that, or the site plain doesn't support that aspect of your league's scoring system.

If the site can handle it but it's just an incorrect setup, and it's caught week 1 then as commish I would fix it. For instance, if you're on MFL, then your commish used the "Fumbles" or "Fumbles Lost" category when he should have used "Fumbles on Offense" or "Fumbles Lost on Offense" when he did scoring for WRs. If that's the case it should be fixed. If it was week 8, then you are in a hairier situation. But you're not.

If you are using a less capable site doesn't allow distinction between fumbles on offense/defense/special teams... then you're stuck with either doing what the site allows, or the commish having to do manual corrections all year. If this, I'd suggest going with what the site can support. Barring that, the commish would have to do manual edits as needed, and your league will have to add a new rule immediately to clarify what the new official source for data is that supersedes your host site. (Which is why I'd recommend just staying within what the site can handle.)
The way i see it, league rules should trump limitations of software in calculating scores.
The way I see it people should stop paying twice as much for CBS when it can't handle what should be basic functionality, and then have the balls to blame the NFL's stats for their product's shortcomings.
Agreed.
 
^^ There's your answer.

The NFL and the stat book don't differentiate how a fumble happened. So you own the player -- you own the fumble.
But no one is disputing the NFL scoring which states that Welker fumbled. The question is whether fumbles by players on special teams and defense apply to players in your offensive skill position lineup. The NFL stats don't care about fantasy scoring so they don't take these distinctions into account and can't be used to make this determination.

 
^^ There's your answer.

The NFL and the stat book don't differentiate how a fumble happened. So you own the player -- you own the fumble.
But no one is disputing the NFL scoring which states that Welker fumbled. The question is whether fumbles by players on special teams and defense apply to players in your offensive skill position lineup. The NFL stats don't care about fantasy scoring so they don't take these distinctions into account and can't be used to make this determination.
Would welker have gotten scored for a TD had he ran it back? Or just the Den def/St?

 
Kind of a bummer for you but I too would have ruled as your commissioner did.
So your answer would have been "sorry, I know the software scored the -2 in direct contradiction to our stated rules, but that's the breaks?"

Here's a question, based on the way the rules are stated, if you were manually scoring games as the commish using NFL.com boxscores, would you have docked Welker 2 points? I think that's the only question to answer here.
The reason I would rule this way is not just based on this instance. I agree that a rule change for the following season should be a discussion point. My view is that this potential scenario was not brought up and discussed prior to the season meaning nobody said "hey, I could lose points on a fumble during a return but I can't get points for the TD". I am reading this as this instance was not thought of before the season. I then prefer to use the official scoring to take place and consider this a discussion point for future years. By making a ruling to overturn the scoring you open yourself up to a multitude of what ifs and that was considered when setting the scoring scenarios moving forward. Now, I do only play in small entry fee leagues so it really isn't a huge deal to most people.

I would also like to mention that even within this thread the responses are split. You can really turn up the negativity in a league when you as commissioner decide to overturn a win for a team because you think a stat does not reflect what you think it should have intended. That is too subjective in my book.

 
Do you get 1 point per 10 return yards? If not, which I doubt you do, then the Commish needs to adjust your score correctly, and fix the scoring accordingly.

Also, stay on top of this. If he doesn't change the rule and adjust your score, you need to make sure he doesn't change his score if this happens to him. This wont be the only muffed punt of the season.

 
Cyclones stop whining and accept your loss. He fumbled the ball. End of story. The NFL doesn't differentiate between special teams fumbles and fumbles as a receiver. Sorry you feel it stinks. But trying to award yourself a victory will just make other people in your league mad.

 
For anyone who is saying "there should be a rule change for the following season," you're missing the point. The rules are fine as is - individuals aren't counted as part of defense or special teams play. That part is clear - Special teams or defensive TDs are scored as part of DST. If Welker had run the punt back for a TD, the Denver DST would have been credited 6 points (there are no points for yardage.)

The issue here is the fact that the software on the website is scoring in contradiction to the rules. Since there is no test environment for said software, there was no way to realize this would happen before it actually did.

And this isn't about what the NFL differentiates as a fumble either - the NFL doesn't award the Texans 2 points for a sack, but my league does. That argument is just silly.

 
For anyone who is saying "there should be a rule change for the following season," you're missing the point. The rules are fine as is - individuals aren't counted as part of defense or special teams play. That part is clear - Special teams or defensive TDs are scored as part of DST. If Welker had run the punt back for a TD, the Denver DST would have been credited 6 points (there are no points for yardage.)

The issue here is the fact that the software on the website is scoring in contradiction to the rules. Since there is no test environment for said software, there was no way to realize this would happen before it actually did.

And this isn't about what the NFL differentiates as a fumble either - the NFL doesn't award the Texans 2 points for a sack, but my league does. That argument is just silly.
is this the first time you used this software? Cuz if not they did it like this last year and the precedent has been set
 

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