stats for Defensive Backs? # of times thrown at? (1 Viewer)

[mr. furley]

Hi, first time, long time.

Since the day Al Harris signed a contract with the Packers my old man has had a vendetta against the guy. He refuses to give him any credit at all.

Case in point, after the Seattle playoff win a couple years ago he ranted and raved about how "lucky" Harris had gotten and how if he didn't get so lucky the Packers would have lost. He's blinded by hate for Al Harris and i'm not quite sure why.

I'm finally sick and tired of arguing about it and would just like some stats to back up my case that he is, in fact, a really good corner.

Is there a site that keeps track of the number of times a DB is targeted per game? the # of catches and yards he gives up? Is there a league average for that stat?

TIA

 

[Jene Bramel]

Welcome to the darkside, brother.

To my knowledge, the two places I've seen report stats like this -- FootballScientist and FootballOutsiders -- do not make their game charting data public. Some of it gets published in their annual books, but I don't think it's available over the web. I'm anchored to the couch with a sleeping baby for now, but I'll quote the data that I have from those annuals in a little bit. That will probably include number of passing plays thrown in Harris' direction per season and yards per attempt allowed, hopefully for both 2005 and 2006. I'll try to find an estimate of league averages as well.

FWIW, I would bet the stats will be on your side.

 

[mr. furley]

i already have a man-crush on you Jene, let's be careful here.

 

[Jene Bramel]

FWIW, my general opinion of Harris is that he's a very good man corner, with the usual caveat that he can be beaten deep by better WRs, and a guy who's played at a level that put him in consideration for the Pro Bowl over the past three seasons. He narrowly missed my ballot here and could rightly be elected over Clements or Barber right now.

Not everyone is a believer in applying sabermetric-like concepts to football because of sample size issues, difficulty in understanding what the defensive playcall on any given play was, etc, etc. I'm skeptical of many of the metrics out there, but I think there are two things that are worth considering when evaluating corners -- yards allowed per pass attempt and difference in targets. The two outlets I mentioned will apply rank lists for these numbers, but I don't place too much stock in them because of differences in scheme and opportunity.

With all that out of the way, the following is compiled from Football Outsiders' Pro Football Prospectus and KC Joyner's Football Scientist annuals covering the seasons 2004-2006.

Al Harris Yards Allowed Per Pass Attempt

2006 6.1

2005 6.8

2004 7.1

On a team that uses a lot of man coverage, those are all average to above-average results. Elite seasons usually run in the low 6 range and, depending on the coverages involved, any number from the mid 6s to the low 7s should probably be considered a very good year. All three of those results are very solid.

The game charting projects of both outlets are just now evolving to include detailed defensive data, and I'm not sure I trust the target data before 2006. FWIW, Harris' targets have dropped from 131 in 2004 (which I question) to the mid 60s over the past two seasons.

In 2006, PFP has the following data for the GBP corners:

Al Harris -- 67 targets -- 6.1 ypa against

Charles Woodson -- 87 targets -- 5.9 ypa against

Pertinent comps from 2006 include:

Champ Bailey 5.8 ypa on 86 targets

Pacman Jones 5.4 ypa on 69 targets

Asante Samuel 5.9 ypa on 101 targets

What to make of all that?

Harris is a very good and underappreciated cover corner. Certainly one of the best in the conference. Regardless of the raw number of targets, he's clearly been targeted less over time and was avoided last season despite an elite season by Woodson. His YPA compares very favorably to some of the most well-thought of corners in the game and, adjusting for the Cover-2 that was used frequently by DEN and NE last year (which bumps the targets of corners), appears to be respected just as much by opposing QBs and OCs.

My guess is that your pops remembers Al Harris getting beaten deep fairly often in 2004 and late 2005, which I seem to recall as well. But, overall, I'm with you. Harris doesn't get the love he deserves from the casual fan and from some diehards apparently as well.

I tried to be careful, GB, but couldn't.

 

[mr. furley]

sweet jeebus that's brilliant

eta: now that i have my composure back. i remember Harris getting beat deep all too well. i also remember him being mis-cast by Slowik who really had absolutely no clue how to use him or that defense in general.

i remember him consistently being lined up 5-10 yards off receivers, playing a lot of zone and struggling to keep up with receivers who had too much cushion.

he's a bump and run guy all the way. when Sherman and the d-coordinator finally realized that he was really pretty good in Philadelphia as a press cover guy, i jumped for joy.

his tenure here can be split in two, imo. there's the Al Harris who was asked to play zone and there's the Al Harris who has been asked to play press.

night and day coverage and night and day results.

 

[mr. furley]

to wit, this from an email i sent a friend of mine in January of 05 (quotes most likely from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel though i can't remember for sure):

"At least one player said Slowik tried to fit the defense around t oo many individuals instead of making them fit the defense. Playing the same defense all season long probably would have resulted in the unit improving instead of stagnating, he said."

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"The players wanted to go back to the pressure defense they practiced all through the training camp, but Slowik and Sherman never felt comfortable doing it."

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"Several players said many of the errors came from sudden changes in the gameplan, usually on SATURDAY after a week of practice doing something else. The most noteworthy occassion was the Philadelphia game, when the game plan all week was to play man-to-man, but zone was called during most of the 47-17 loss."

=========

"Said Sharper: If you say one thing you have to stick with it. When you're back and forth, guys get confused and were wondering what we were doing."

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

to wit, this from an email i sent a friend of mine in January of 05 (quotes most likely from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel though i can't remember for sure):

"At least one player said Slowik tried to fit the defense around t oo many individuals instead of making them fit the defense. Playing the same defense all season long probably would have resulted in the unit improving instead of stagnating, he said."

=========

"The players wanted to go back to the pressure defense they practiced all through the training camp, but Slowik and Sherman never felt comfortable doing it."

=========

"Several players said many of the errors came from sudden changes in the gameplan, usually on SATURDAY after a week of practice doing something else. The most noteworthy occassion was the Philadelphia game, when the game plan all week was to play man-to-man, but zone was called during most of the 47-17 loss." :X

=========

"Said Sharper: If you say one thing you have to stick with it. When you're back and forth, guys get confused and were wondering what we were doing."

Great thread - have always wondered where to get this data. Thanks Jene, you rock!

furley - back in 2004/05, many times after Harris got beat on coverage he would literally scream at one of the safeties. Obvious implication was that Harris thought he had help, the safety blew coverage, it made Harris look bad. Not sure what the real story was, but I remember how frequently Harris looked annoyed. FWIW.

 

[mr. furley]

yeah, i remember that as well. that secondary was a mess. hell, that whole defense was a mess.

firing Donatell and promoting Slowik was yet another of Sherman's horrific decisions. god. that whole season was painful to watch.

 

[Dirty Hairy]

Hi, first time, long time.

Since the day Al Harris signed a contract with the Packers my old man has had a vendetta against the guy. He refuses to give him any credit at all.

TIA

Be aware that no amount of data will change this.