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Stats vs. Intangibles (1 Viewer)

Hall of Fame

  • Terrell Owens

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Hines Ward

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Ghost Rider

Footballguy
Plain and simple, if both guys decided they were retiring following the Pro Bowl, and you HAD to put just one of them in the Hall of Fame, which one would you put in? Owens, who has the numbers but has a reputation of being a malcontent who constantly disrupts team harmony, or Ward, who doesn't have the numbers but is known for having certain intangibles that a guy like Owens could never dream of having?

If you feel that how the Steelers finish up their current playoff run is a factor, then that is fine with me.

 
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TO's numbers are so much better, it shouldn't even be a debate. You could argue stats vs. intangibles if they were somewhat close, but now you're comparing one of the dominant receivers of his era with a guy that was pretty good.

But there are a lot of dim bulbs around here.

 
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I assumed this was a trick question, but then I open it and it's 2-2.

It is true that the HOF voters prefer an above average starter who played on a great team to truly elite players who didn't. But in this case the gap is so unbelievably wide that the question is a joke.

 
I assumed this was a trick question, but then I open it and it's 2-2. It is true that the HOF voters prefer an above average starter who played on a great team to truly elite players who didn't. But in this case the gap is so unbelievably wide that the question is a joke.
:excited:
 
I'm a pretty big homer -- and TO is a stone cold lock for the HOF.

Ward possibly could get in, depending on what he does in his remaining years.

 
951 catches 14122 yards 14.8 ypc 139 td's

vs

800 catches 9780 yards 12.2 ypc 72 td's + intangibles

Do the intangibles really account for almost double the TD's, 4000+ more yards etc..? Not to me in terms of getting in the HOF. I love Ward, but this is not close.

 
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951 catches 14122 yards 14.8 ypc 139 td'svs800 catches 9780 yards 12.2 ypc 72 td's + intangiblesDo the intangibles really account for almost double the TD's, 4000+ more yards etc..? Not to me in terms of getting in the HOF. I love Ward, but this is not close.
I completely understand the stats argument - it isn't even close. But consider the fact that the game has changed, teams pass much more and pass more efficiently as well. The HOF voters will definitely have to reconsider how they determine the best WRs. If I were a HOF voter I'd look for a complete package, and they don't get more complete than ward. No doubt his stats could be a lot better if he cried for the ball the way Owens does, or even if he played on a pass first offense, the way Owens always has. Also, this is purely speculative, but I could see Hines having 3 more solid seasons, then another 3 as a role player & continuing to bolster his playoff success, while I could easily see Owens being cut this year by boys, joining some losing team, and further proving his reputation as a malcontent. But maybe that's just wishful thinking for this philly fan.
 
951 catches 14122 yards 14.8 ypc 139 td'svs800 catches 9780 yards 12.2 ypc 72 td's + intangiblesDo the intangibles really account for almost double the TD's, 4000+ more yards etc..? Not to me in terms of getting in the HOF. I love Ward, but this is not close.
I completely understand the stats argument - it isn't even close. But consider the fact that the game has changed, teams pass much more and pass more efficiently as well. The HOF voters will definitely have to reconsider how they determine the best WRs. If I were a HOF voter I'd look for a complete package, and they don't get more complete than ward. No doubt his stats could be a lot better if he cried for the ball the way Owens does, or even if he played on a pass first offense, the way Owens always has. Also, this is purely speculative, but I could see Hines having 3 more solid seasons, then another 3 as a role player & continuing to bolster his playoff success, while I could easily see Owens being cut this year by boys, joining some losing team, and further proving his reputation as a malcontent. But maybe that's just wishful thinking for this philly fan.
I hear what you are saying here completely and I can respect the argument. But the difference to me is just too great in this case for intangibles to win over. However, I will be quite happy if the HOF sees otherwise. I just don't see that happening.
 
It depends on what you value when evaluating a candidate - stats, or the impact a player has had on his team and the success thereof.

Owens has compiled monster stats but is such a cancer that two teams have let a player with his talent walk, and a third may now do so.

Ward has inferior stats but is widely regarded as the most complete receiver in football and is a guy who makes his teammates and his team better.

To me, the HOF should enshrine the best FOOTBALL players. There's more to playing receiver than catching passes. A great receiver is on the field for over 1,000 plays a season and catches a ball on maybe 8-9% of those plays. If I had the choice of having Ward or Owens on my team for 10 years at the same salary, I'd take Ward without thinking about it, despite owens being the more talented pass catcher. To me, that means he's the better football player.

 
So the difference in "Intangibles" is being a big jerk off the field versus being a big jerk on the field?

And don't kid yourself into thinking TO doesn't block better than the vast majority of WRs.

 
Ward has inferior stats but is widely regarded as the most complete receiver in football and is a guy who makes his teammates and his team better.
Oh come on. I hope you are drunk and homering up for the game, but this is silly.Most complete receiver would include, you know, WR type things like running routes longer than 15 yards.Hines is a great player. Toughest WR? Sure. Best blocker? Sure. He's a possession WR that adds a ton of value in other areas. Let's leave it at that. This poll is silly too, choosing TO as the counterpart.Let's get back to the question if Hines makes the HOF, that's a lot more interesting IMO.
 
So the difference in "Intangibles" is being a big jerk off the field versus being a big jerk on the field?

And don't kid yourself into thinking TO doesn't block better than the vast majority of WRs.
I've no way to prove this, but I think the damage Owens has done to his teams has majorly offset the stats he's put up. Whereas I think Ward has been almost 100% positive for the Steelers.
 
I'm a Niner fan who utterly loathes Terrell Owens, and who regularly wishes bad things to happen to the putz.

That being said, TO is a lock for the HOF. Ward is not even close to that status, no matter how much better a person he is.

 
Ward has inferior stats but is widely regarded as the most complete receiver in football and is a guy who makes his teammates and his team better.
Oh come on. I hope you are drunk and homering up for the game, but this is silly.Most complete receiver would include, you know, WR type things like running routes longer than 15 yards.Hines is a great player. Toughest WR? Sure. Best blocker? Sure. He's a possession WR that adds a ton of value in other areas. Let's leave it at that. This poll is silly too, choosing TO as the counterpart.Let's get back to the question if Hines makes the HOF, that's a lot more interesting IMO.
All I'm saying is that Hines is a great player and Owens is a great talent, but loves him some him and does nothing to make his team or his teammates better. He's clearly a more talented pass-catcher than Ward, there's no doubt about it, but if he's such a great PLAYER, why do teams keep letting him walk away with a "good riddance?" because in many ways, he hurts the team more than he helps.All that should go into determining who the best players in football are. It's not the hall of stats. A lot of people, if you re-phrased this poll, would say they'd rather have Ward on their team than Owens? Why? If Owens is so much better, wouldn't it be a no-brainer to have him over Ward? Why should consideration for the HOF be any different?Look, this isn't to say Ward will get in or Owens won't. It's just how I would consider people if I had a vote. The whole body of work, not just the #s. it's just one guys opinion, and it's got nothing to do with Ward. If you gave me Rod Smith or Owens, I'd take Smith too.
 
So the difference in "Intangibles" is being a big jerk off the field versus being a big jerk on the field?

And don't kid yourself into thinking TO doesn't block better than the vast majority of WRs.
I've no way to prove this, but I think the damage Owens has done to his teams has majorly offset the stats he's put up. Whereas I think Ward has been almost 100% positive for the Steelers.
Obviously, most people think Owens destroying his teams' chemistry and morale or guys like Moss taking plays off has no deleterious effect on a team, just like Ward laying a huge block to spring a ball carrier for an extra 15 yards has no positive merit, because it's not reflected in the stats.Again, let me say, I think Owens is a lock and Ward is iffy at best (depending on how many more eyars he plays and at what level) for the HOF. I'm just saying I personally don't think it should be that way.

 
951 catches 14122 yards 14.8 ypc 139 td's

vs

800 catches 9780 yards 12.2 ypc 72 td's + intangibles

Do the intangibles really account for almost double the TD's, 4000+ more yards etc..? Not to me in terms of getting in the HOF. I love Ward, but this is not close.
I completely understand the stats argument - it isn't even close. But consider the fact that the game has changed, teams pass much more and pass more efficiently as well. The HOF voters will definitely have to reconsider how they determine the best WRs. If I were a HOF voter I'd look for a complete package, and they don't get more complete than ward. No doubt his stats could be a lot better if he cried for the ball the way Owens does, or even if he played on a pass first offense, the way Owens always has. Also, this is purely speculative, but I could see Hines having 3 more solid seasons, then another 3 as a role player & continuing to bolster his playoff success, while I could easily see Owens being cut this year by boys, joining some losing team, and further proving his reputation as a malcontent. But maybe that's just wishful thinking for this philly fan.
So you're saying we can't directly compare two guys who played in the same era because the game has changed since some other era that neither of them played in? :confused:

Edit: Ok, that probably isn't fair, you're saying they would evaluate what is important in a WR differently, not that Ward and TO should be evaluated differently.

But I don't think that's an argument in Ward's favor either. How has the game changed? The passing game is emphasized now. Receiving ability is more important than every for a WR. I personally wouldn't make the argument that evaluations of WRs is changing much unless you're talking about comparing it to the 1920s or something. But if it does change, it's changing in TO's favor. We do have players who can catch passes who are much better blockers, and they are called TEs. If the game has changed in such a way that blocking is such a bigger emphasis, we'd be seeing more TEs out there and fewer WRs. If anything I think the opposite has happened... the value of a good receiving WR is more than it has been in previous eras.

 
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Evilgrin 72 said:
Britney Spears said:
Evilgrin 72 said:
Ward has inferior stats but is widely regarded as the most complete receiver in football and is a guy who makes his teammates and his team better.
Oh come on. I hope you are drunk and homering up for the game, but this is silly.Most complete receiver would include, you know, WR type things like running routes longer than 15 yards.Hines is a great player. Toughest WR? Sure. Best blocker? Sure. He's a possession WR that adds a ton of value in other areas. Let's leave it at that. This poll is silly too, choosing TO as the counterpart.Let's get back to the question if Hines makes the HOF, that's a lot more interesting IMO.
All I'm saying is that Hines is a great player and Owens is a great talent, but loves him some him and does nothing to make his team or his teammates better. He's clearly a more talented pass-catcher than Ward, there's no doubt about it, but if he's such a great PLAYER, why do teams keep letting him walk away with a "good riddance?" because in many ways, he hurts the team more than he helps.All that should go into determining who the best players in football are. It's not the hall of stats. A lot of people, if you re-phrased this poll, would say they'd rather have Ward on their team than Owens? Why? If Owens is so much better, wouldn't it be a no-brainer to have him over Ward? Why should consideration for the HOF be any different?Look, this isn't to say Ward will get in or Owens won't. It's just how I would consider people if I had a vote. The whole body of work, not just the #s. it's just one guys opinion, and it's got nothing to do with Ward. If you gave me Rod Smith or Owens, I'd take Smith too.
All of these things are true, old friend. Owens is a cancer, and anyone would want Hines on their team.But saying Ward is widely regarded as the most "complete" reciever, when he really isn't as good at "reciever type things" as some of the other guys (Moss, Owens, Harrison) in his ERA doesn't make much sense.
 
Evilgrin 72 said:
Britney Spears said:
Evilgrin 72 said:
Ward has inferior stats but is widely regarded as the most complete receiver in football and is a guy who makes his teammates and his team better.
Oh come on. I hope you are drunk and homering up for the game, but this is silly.Most complete receiver would include, you know, WR type things like running routes longer than 15 yards.Hines is a great player. Toughest WR? Sure. Best blocker? Sure. He's a possession WR that adds a ton of value in other areas. Let's leave it at that. This poll is silly too, choosing TO as the counterpart.Let's get back to the question if Hines makes the HOF, that's a lot more interesting IMO.
All I'm saying is that Hines is a great player and Owens is a great talent, but loves him some him and does nothing to make his team or his teammates better. He's clearly a more talented pass-catcher than Ward, there's no doubt about it, but if he's such a great PLAYER, why do teams keep letting him walk away with a "good riddance?" because in many ways, he hurts the team more than he helps.All that should go into determining who the best players in football are. It's not the hall of stats. A lot of people, if you re-phrased this poll, would say they'd rather have Ward on their team than Owens? Why? If Owens is so much better, wouldn't it be a no-brainer to have him over Ward? Why should consideration for the HOF be any different?Look, this isn't to say Ward will get in or Owens won't. It's just how I would consider people if I had a vote. The whole body of work, not just the #s. it's just one guys opinion, and it's got nothing to do with Ward. If you gave me Rod Smith or Owens, I'd take Smith too.
All of these things are true, old friend. Owens is a cancer, and anyone would want Hines on their team.But saying Ward is widely regarded as the most "complete" reciever, when he really isn't as good at "reciever type things" as some of the other guys (Moss, Owens, Harrison) in his ERA doesn't make much sense.
I just think if you took hands, route running, deep speed, blocking, YAC ability, etc.. that Ward would appear closer to the top of all categories than anyone. Certainly there are players betetr than him in all those categories except blocking.
 
You know what?

If you want someone who is probably going to make the HOF, you'd probably take Owens.

If you want someone to play on your team, you'd probably definitely take Ward.

 
You know what?

If you want someone who is probably going to make the HOF, you'd probably take Owens.

If you want someone to play on your team, you'd probably definitely take Ward.
Right on. Yet 33% of the knuckleheads in here picked Ward when the question was who belongs in the HOF.
 

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