Sydney Cafe held hostage by Jihadists (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

They're not crazy in the sense that Diebold was crazy or even Oswald. Islamist terrorists have a political, cultural, and religious philosophy which unifies them.

Hitler and Stalin and all those other bad guys were arguably crazy, at some point crazy and evil intersect.

 

[BigJohn]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

The Islamic flag placed in the window?

 

[timschochet]

They're not crazy in the sense that Diebold was crazy or even Oswald. Islamist terrorists have a political, cultural, and religious philosophy which unifies them.

Hitler and Stalin and all those other bad guys were arguably crazy, at some point crazy and evil intersect.

this is different. Hitler created his own philosophy and Stalin's evil acts, most of them, did not come out of his Communist beliefs.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Meh. If James Holmes was draped in a John 3:16 flag while he shot up the theater, it's very easy to imagine the different positions people would be taking than they are in this thread.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

The Islamic flag placed in the window?

Same way you'd explain when someone blows up an abortion clinic, or kills a doctor that performs abortions.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

They're not crazy in the sense that Diebold was crazy or even Oswald. Islamist terrorists have a political, cultural, and religious philosophy which unifies them.

Hitler and Stalin and all those other bad guys were arguably crazy, at some point crazy and evil intersect.

this is different. Hitler created his own philosophy and Stalin's evil acts, most of them, did not come out of his Communist beliefs.

Fascism existed before Hitler, heck even Mussolini got it from somewhere. And antisemitism and other elements of the nazi ideology definitely predated Hitler. What he did was definitely because he was a nazi.

And communism was the very essence of Stalin.

You are quite, quite wrong, it's scarey how wrong you are. I think your original point was a good one though.

 

[jamny]

How is someone a bigot if all they know about Islam is what you see and read about in the news? They might be ill-informed and lack the experience others have had with Muslims but throwing out bigot really isn't a way to discuss this. Stop pointing fingers.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Sydney Hostage Taker Identified as Man Haron MonisMan Haron Monis, a self-proclaimed Islamic “sheikh” and alleged sexual predator, has been identified as the gunman who was holding multiple people hostage in an hours-long standoff in a café in Sydney, according to Australian media.

Overnight hostages reportedly spoke to Australian television stations and identified their captor, though police requested outlets not publish it at the time. At around 11 a.m. EST, the situation came to a violent end when police stormed the café, freeing several hostages amid flashes from stun grenades and gunfire. It’s not clear what happened to Monis in the operation.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sydney-hostage-taker-identified-man-haron-monis/story?id=27607179

Charged with 40 counts of molesting women, and with assisting in the murder of his ex-wife

Suicide by SWAT indeed

Police have not publicly identified the gunman but a police source named him as Man Haron Monis, an Iranian refugee and self-styled sheikh known for sending hate mail to the families of Australian troops killed in Afghanistan. He was charged last year with being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife.

Every once in a while you hear stories like this - why was this guy not in jail???

 

[CurlyNight]

I am of Iranian descent. I have a lot of family in Iran though my immediate ones are here. I was born here and have lived in Iran back in 77-79, during the revolution.

Back when I lived there before things went upside down, women were not oppressed. You have to understand that there are sections of the country where they are by their beliefs, but don't think that what you see on tv is the end all of how it is over there. I went to Tehran American School over there even though I know farsi, but I was more comfortable with english writing and reading. It really was a lot of fun back before the extremist nuts took over.

Nowdays is about the same, you just have to not flaunt much outside your door. Sure women need to wear at least a light scarf out of the home and not be too revealing, but women do go to university over there, do hold white collar jobs. My aunt is a dentist over there and makes a ton of money that she would never make over here. Part of it is she also speaks english so she attracts the european people, and yes lots of europeans live there, as well as women. She's not moving here even though she easily could because she is rich because of all the freedoms she has over there by virtue of being respected for her profession. Yes she still needs to be careful and follow the cover yourself up decently rules but as far as anything else really, my family says no problem. She throws big parties where people leave their head coverings at the door and any coats, etc, and it looks like a party here in the states.

You should see some sections of Tehran. Some malls, trains, night life looks very Vegas-y. When they aired CNN's Anthony Bourdain in Iran I was really hoping it would be more than just about food (which is the best in the world) and hospitality, which most Iranians are very family oriented and open and loving to strangers. But I can understand he was limited on what he could show, I mean you don't want the world to see anything that could look like NY or Vegas night life.

As for gays, yeah it is like Christianity where you have a problem and you need to fix it. My family who lives here doesn't think that way but the older ones in Iran do. So you stay in the closet if you are and if your family is open, that's as far as it goes. Don't look for a pride parade in Tehran in your next life either... That is the one thing that will never change unless you get rid of the crazy mullahs in power and then you can start fresh with a new generation, which again, not in our lifetimes nor our kids and probably grandkids either.

My family is by default moslem however none of us every practiced it. We are not of a religion but of a general belief of good and peace, love, respect, God being there is one for us all at the end of the day. Basically the 10 commandments that really major religions all believe.

I don't get razzed when I hear global generalizations of Iran, specifically Tehran. I feel bad that folks who have never been there long enough or lived there don't have all the facts, and they just know what they see on tv.

 

[jamny]

Great post Curly.

Our media does such a horrible job of covering the world. I'm sure it has it's critics too but at least BBC shows global stories.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Thanks for the insight, Curly.

 

[rockaction]

I am of Iranian descent. I have a lot of family in Iran though my immediate ones are here. I was born here and have lived in Iran back in 77-79, during the revolution.

Back when I lived there before things went upside down, women were not oppressed. You have to understand that there are sections of the country where they are by their beliefs, but don't think that what you see on tv is the end all of how it is over there. I went to Tehran American School over there even though I know farsi, but I was more comfortable with english writing and reading. It really was a lot of fun back before the extremist nuts took over.

Nowdays is about the same, you just have to not flaunt much outside your door. Sure women need to wear at least a light scarf out of the home and not be too revealing, but women do go to university over there, do hold white collar jobs. My aunt is a dentist over there and makes a ton of money that she would never make over here. Part of it is she also speaks english so she attracts the european people, and yes lots of europeans live there, as well as women. She's not moving here even though she easily could because she is rich because of all the freedoms she has over there by virtue of being respected for her profession. Yes she still needs to be careful and follow the cover yourself up decently rules but as far as anything else really, my family says no problem. She throws big parties where people leave their head coverings at the door and any coats, etc, and it looks like a party here in the states.

You should see some sections of Tehran. Some malls, trains, night life looks very Vegas-y. When they aired CNN's Anthony Bourdain in Iran I was really hoping it would be more than just about food (which is the best in the world) and hospitality, which most Iranians are very family oriented and open and loving to strangers. But I can understand he was limited on what he could show, I mean you don't want the world to see anything that could look like NY or Vegas night life.

As for gays, yeah it is like Christianity where you have a problem and you need to fix it. My family who lives here doesn't think that way but the older ones in Iran do. So you stay in the closet if you are and if your family is open, that's as far as it goes. Don't look for a pride parade in Tehran in your next life either... That is the one thing that will never change unless you get rid of the crazy mullahs in power and then you can start fresh with a new generation, which again, not in our lifetimes nor our kids and probably grandkids either.

My family is by default moslem however none of us every practiced it. We are not of a religion but of a general belief of good and peace, love, respect, God being there is one for us all at the end of the day. Basically the 10 commandments that really major religions all believe.

I don't get razzed when I hear global generalizations of Iran, specifically Tehran. I feel bad that folks who have never been there long enough or lived there don't have all the facts, and they just know what they see on tv.

I appreciate the insight, but this in of itself is indicative of a large, large despotic problem, regardless of whether that despotism is majoritarian or top-down. Also, this doesn't address revolutions, elections, etc.

Really, I understand I haven't been there, but my antennae are way up on this glossing over of severe and problematic democratic concerns. This is the country with the Green Revolution, Neda, the 100% re-election rate.

There's a theocratic problem here, and saying that it merely results in some scarves being worn doesn't raise my pique, but my curiosity about exactly what the author is trying to explain away. Comparing a country where homosexuality is apparently punishable by death with Christianity and its problems with gay marriage in this country sounds utterly silly, and the more I type, the more I think I should stop.

 

[CurlyNight]

^^^^

I am talking about the general life there, not analyzing the problems and punishments of what happens if..which are obviously there. It was mentioned here about how women and gays are oppressed. I addressed that. And I merely said the thinking about Gays is like Christians: as in there is something wrong with you and fix it. I didn't mean to imply the punishment is the same should it get out your front door in Iran.

You are way over thinking my post and what I was trying to describe as life as majority in Tehran know it. My post in not meant to say there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the government and mullahs over there. You just need to follow their rules which really, is not much different than here other than the punishment if you chose not to.

 

[rockaction]

^^^^

I am talking about the general life there, not analyzing the problems and punishments of what happens if..which are obviously there. It was mentioned here about how women and gays are oppressed. I addressed that. And I merely said the thinking about Gays is like Christians: as in there is something wrong with you and fix it. I didn't mean to imply the punishment is the same should it get out your front door in Iran.

You are way over thinking my post.

Yeah, I don't think that's comparable. But I'm taking your point broadly (through gritted teeth so that we don't iDebate) and I guess I can understand what you're saying.

More importantly, I also get that there are public spheres of life and private spheres of life. I'm not over-thinking it, I think (?) when I say that the effects upon the public sphere are how we often determine whether a country is in the grips of totalitarianism or theocracy.

I am glad to hear that, in your opinion, Iran has a private sphere that is forgiving -- it sounds much, much better than the alternative, which I hesitate to contemplate and zaps me back into cheer when I recognize my own piddling problems to the contrary.

 

[timschochet]

Enjoyed your post very much Curly.

 

[CurlyNight]

^^^^

I am talking about the general life there, not analyzing the problems and punishments of what happens if..which are obviously there. It was mentioned here about how women and gays are oppressed. I addressed that. And I merely said the thinking about Gays is like Christians: as in there is something wrong with you and fix it. I didn't mean to imply the punishment is the same should it get out your front door in Iran.

You are way over thinking my post.

Yeah, I don't think that's comparable. But I'm taking your point broadly (through gritted teeth so that we don't iDebate) and I guess I can understand what you're saying.

More importantly, I also get that there are public spheres of life and private spheres of life. I'm not over-thinking it, I think (?) when I say that the effects upon the public sphere are how we often determine whether a country is in the grips of totalitarianism or theocracy.

I am glad to hear that, in your opinion, Iran has a private sphere that is forgiving -- it sounds much, much better than the alternative, which I hesitate to contemplate and zaps me back into cheer when I recognize my own piddling problems to the contrary.

I did another edit to my post than what you quoted... Yes you won't find me or any of my family here packing up to move there, but it really isn't as bad as the media makes it sound and shows. It's not easy to explain it but rest assured, even in our eyes in the US, it really isn't that bad as long as you follow the rules which to my aunt and my fam over there, the covering up part it the biggest pita when it's hot.

 

[AAABatteries]

I did another edit to my post than what you quoted... Yes you won't find me or any of my family here packing up to move there, but it really isn't as bad as the media makes it sound and shows. It's not easy to explain it but rest assured, even in our eyes in the US, it really isn't that bad as long as you follow the rules which to my aunt and my fam over there, the covering up part it the biggest pita when it's hot.

Very cool - interesting to hear your perspective. To play Devils advocate - you keep saying as long as you follow the rules. I'm not sure why that should be a given and glossed over, especially if my punishment is severe. Seems like hand-waving to avoid the truth of the situation.

 

[CurlyNight]

I did another edit to my post than what you quoted... Yes you won't find me or any of my family here packing up to move there, but it really isn't as bad as the media makes it sound and shows. It's not easy to explain it but rest assured, even in our eyes in the US, it really isn't that bad as long as you follow the rules which to my aunt and my fam over there, the covering up part it the biggest pita when it's hot.

Very cool - interesting to hear your perspective. To play Devils advocate - you keep saying as long as you follow the rules. I'm not sure why that should be a given and glossed over, especially if my punishment is severe. Seems like hand-waving to avoid the truth of the situation.

It's not much different than it is here with laws, other than the punishment of course. Here you follow the rules/laws and you're fine. Same with over there. I think you guys are way to focused on what the punishment could be or is if you break the law. Sure it's not as free as it is over here with freedom of speech and such things, but I think you guys have let the media put the digs in you on how awful it must be over there than even a person who is from there is wrong with how it really is in the day to day life over there.

 

[rockaction]

I did another edit to my post than what you quoted... Yes you won't find me or any of my family here packing up to move there, but it really isn't as bad as the media makes it sound and shows. It's not easy to explain it but rest assured, even in our eyes in the US, it really isn't that bad as long as you follow the rules which to my aunt and my fam over there, the covering up part it the biggest pita when it's hot.

Very cool - interesting to hear your perspective. To play Devils advocate - you keep saying as long as you follow the rules. I'm not sure why that should be a given and glossed over, especially if my punishment is severe. Seems like hand-waving to avoid the truth of the situation.

It's not much different than it is here with laws, other than the punishment of course. Here you follow the rules/laws and you're fine. Same with over there. I think you guys are way to focused on what the punishment could be or is if you break the law. Sure it's not as free as it is over here with freedom of speech and such things, but I think you guys have let the media put the digs in you on how awful it must be over there than even a person who is from there is wrong with how it really is in the day to day life over there.

Curly, we appreciate your posts, but I think we're also focused on what the law is, and where it is applied. This is really a weird authoritarian impulse foreign to us.

 

[CurlyNight]

That is understandable. I never meant to mean it's a picnic over there like it basically is over here, but if you live in the right sections of towns, it really isn't bad at all. Just like here. Live in east Oakland and it's like a different world than if you live in Palo Alto type of deal with the policing, brutality, and such.

I'm not comparing this country to Iran. I'm saying that for those who have lived in the Shah era when things were pretty close to being like it is here to those there now, it really isn't as bad as it looks in the media if you live in the good part of towns.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Islamic doctrine is based on Bronze Age morality. Applying it literally in modern times is born out of ignorance, oppression, or flat out insanity. The same can be said of Christian and Jewish doctrine. So, why is it that Islam is associated with more violence, oppression, and terrorism than the others? I'd say it's at least in part because of other cultural and political factors in play in the Muslim world that are unique.

Global terrorism is a complex issue. Is religion, or specifically, the Muslim religion, the sole thing to blame? Absolutely not. But, it's definitely part of the equation.

 

[cstu]

You should see some sections of Tehran. Some malls, trains, night life looks very Vegas-y. When they aired CNN's Anthony Bourdain in Iran I was really hoping it would be more than just about food (which is the best in the world) and hospitality, which most Iranians are very family oriented and open and loving to strangers. But I can understand he was limited on what he could show, I mean you don't want the world to see anything that could look like NY or Vegas night life.

Tehran - the secret party town

 

[msommer]

I'm concerned that some of you are able to procreate and raise our next generation to be islamophobic

I'm just curious about something, and I say this with the best of intent, as I would like to understand. How would you explain to your children what and who these terrorists are? I mean we all acknowledge there are all kinds of terrorists (the IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Shining Path, the SLA, you name it), but how would you explain who these terrorists are that attacked the cafe in Sydney and the WTC in NYC (and etc. x 10,000)?

How would you explain or even discuss who these people are without using the words "muslim" or "Islamic"

You explain that the guy who held the cafe hostage was crazy.

when that kid shot up the movie theater in Colorado, or the guy shot the politician in Arizona, were they associated with their religion? They are crazy. Not sure why people want to rush to lump folks in with others or jump to conclusions.

Technically the guy in the cafe associated himself with Islam, quite publicly.

Was he off his rails? Quite possible that too

yes he was. this guy was an outcast in the muslim community. As he was an outcast in life.

I'm not arguing for either correlation or causality.

But, he brought it into the public sphere, and then why should we not discuss it?

He could ahve asked for the state to drop the charges against that were going to land him in jail. Instead he chose to make a run for the 72 virgins...

right but just because he associated himself doesnt mean anything. especially being that he is crazy. The fact that he asked for an ISIS flag to me was the indicator that this guy was off. This guy associated himself with ISIS because he knew it would get headlines. And then, he got agitated because the media wasnt paying enough attention to him. So he made hostages post to social media, tried calling in radio stations, etc. He was looking for attention.

Im not saying not to discuss it. But i just have a problem with the folks coming in here and bashing all muslims or the entire religion.

Personnally, like in the crusades, the absolution of sins if you kill infidels, I think the jihad concept is one of the things that is a problem with islam. Another is the inability to renounce it with suffering a fatwah. To me these tow things encourage barbarism and brutality. And that is wrong, particularly for a religion of peace.

 

[Sand]

Islamic doctrine is based on Bronze Age morality. Applying it literally in modern times is born out of ignorance, oppression, or flat out insanity. The same can be said of Christian and Jewish doctrine.

Not really.

Christian and Jewish doctrine are very, very different. Read the new testament, then read the latest parts of the Quran (the latest parts abrogate any earlier parts that conflict with it). Massive differences. Islam is much more a religion of conquest than peace.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Islamic doctrine is based on Bronze Age morality. Applying it literally in modern times is born out of ignorance, oppression, or flat out insanity. The same can be said of Christian and Jewish doctrine.

Not really.

Christian and Jewish doctrine are very, very different. Read the new testament, then read the latest parts of the Quran (the latest parts abrogate any earlier parts that conflict with it). Massive differences. Islam is much more a religion of conquest than peace.

The problem is when people cherry pick individual quotes. You may be right about the overall message or, probably more so, the overall interpretation that the religious leaders attempt to sell, but there are indeed horrific examples of brutality in all of these books, and it's those specific quotes that extremists use to justify their terror.

 

[cjv123]

I have no problem with Tim. I understand his position well.

To me, it's about where we are today- 2014 A.D.. Many religions- indeed most- started with barbaric aspects. Fear was a part of the "selling point." But, where are we today, 3,000 years after Moses, 2,000 years after Christ and 1,300 after Muhammad? Apart from fringe sects, the mainstream churches in Judaism and Christianity do not persecute women and gays. They have evolved. They have learned. They realize parts of their bibles are unworthy of further recitation. But, there is no evidence Islam has evolved one iota, or learned one thing. The presence of religious police and the mandatory imprisonment for apostasy in almost every Muslim nation signifies women and gays must live in terror throughout the Muslim world, not simply in a few places or persecuted by a few. The "few" nonsense is a lie. Evil is a structural component of Islam.

 

[johnnycakes]

Time to bring in Dirty Harry.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tlUywv1HBOk

 

[CurlyNight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU3quz8Tt5g

This is in Tehran? Yes!

Check out the videos listed to the right of this one too. As you see, it's not all bad especially for the younger crowd.

 

[TPW]

That is understandable. I never meant to mean it's a picnic over there like it basically is over here, but if you live in the right sections of towns, it really isn't bad at all. Just like here. Live in east Oakland and it's like a different world than if you live in Palo Alto type of deal with the policing, brutality, and such.

I'm not comparing this country to Iran. I'm saying that for those who have lived in the Shah era when things were pretty close to being like it is here to those there now, it really isn't as bad as it looks in the media if you live in the good part of towns.

And just how many outside of the wealthy elite get to live in those parts of town? Iran is a country of nearly 80 million people and the Iranian economy is struggling mightily. If you're not fortunate enough to be one of those able to buy indulgences then this is the kind of thing to which you can look forward.

"Iran: Motorcycle Acid Gangs 'Terrorising Women' who Break Islamic Dress Code"

Islamic doctrine is based on Bronze Age morality. Applying it literally in modern times is born out of ignorance, oppression, or flat out insanity. The same can be said of Christian and Jewish doctrine. So, why is it that Islam is associated with more violence, oppression, and terrorism than the others? I'd say it's at least in part because of other cultural and political factors in play in the Muslim world that are unique.

Global terrorism is a complex issue. Is religion, or specifically, the Muslim religion, the sole thing to blame? Absolutely not. But, it's definitely part of the equation.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htwin/articles/20141212.aspx

A recent terrorism survey (Global Terrorism Index) found that five nations (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria and Syria, in that order) accounted for 80 percent of all terrorism related deaths in 2013 and even more in 2014. Four Islamic terrorist organizations (ISIL, al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the Taliban) account for nearly 70 percent of all terrorist deaths. Many of the lesser terror groups are also Islamic. In fact, of the top ten nations by terrorist activity (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, Syria, India, Somalia, Yemen, Philippines and Thailand) only India and the Philippines had a significant minority of terrorist deaths that were not carried out by Moslems. In those two countries the minority terrorists were leftist rebels who had not noticed the collapse of radical socialism in 1989.

 

[CurlyNight]

Many people are wealthy in Tehran, much to what the media portrays. Why do you think so many europeans are there? It's like NY, do you show Harlem on tv or Manhatten. Unless you've been there, you don't know. Sure there are a lot of poor people there who don't live the life, especially considering there really is no middle class, but that's how it is in any country. I'm disgusted with the media only show bad and the down and out not only in Tehran but in any country when they are trying to tell you this is life there. Not for everyone, anywhere. It sucks anywhere if you are poor and over there because of the cost of living. We moved there years ago because my dad made 5x the salary he did here. If you want to make money you'd go to school here where it's cheaper then go back there to live a much better life.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I've met a few Persians along the way here, can't say I'm friends with any, but refugees or ex-pats if you will are here in all walks of life, typically very educated, often business owners, sophisticated, well-spoken, well-ingrained into American life. Also the women IMO often strike me as quite beautiful. In my experience has not been uncommon that they have used the term "Persian" rather than "Iranian" by the way.

Thanks for the posts, Curly. It would be interesting if you revived an older Iran thread or created a new one, the topic deserves its own focus for sure.

 

[TPW]

Many people are wealthy in Tehran, much to what the media portrays. Why do you think so many europeans are there? It's like NY, do you show Harlem on tv or Manhatten. Unless you've been there, you don't know. Sure there are a lot of poor people there who don't live the life but that's how it is in any country. I'm disgusted with the media only show bad and the down and out not only in Tehran but in any country when they are trying to tell you this is life there. Not for everyone, anywhere.

So there are rich people living it up with well-heeled European travelers in Tehran. Great. Even the mullahs like to live "high on the hog."

What about all the rest?

 

[CurlyNight]

Did you not read my post above? Did I say everyone there lives a great life? But many more do than what the media portrays. And by no means does anyone from any country says the government over there is a good one. Can't do much about that unfortunately. If you are educated and bonus in a white collar position, yes, you live a better life than you do here despite the cost of living and economy. If not, then yes, it sucks.

 

[CurlyNight]

I've met a few Persians along the way here, can't say I'm friends with any, but refugees or ex-pats if you will are here in all walks of life, typically very educated, often business owners, sophisticated, well-spoken, well-ingrained into American life. Also the women IMO often strike me as quite beautiful. In my experience has not been uncommon that they have used the term "Persian" rather than "Iranian" by the way.

Thanks for the posts, Curly. It would be interesting if you revived an older Iran thread or created a new one, the topic deserves its own focus for sure.

Not sure I can handle all the but buts, as you can kind of see here it even gets repeated!... Iranian and persian is used interchangeably. I tend to say persian while most americans I know say Iranian. Same diff, one is not better than the other. Persian women are exotic looking overall. Persians in general are very friendly and welcoming. It comes from being close to the family. When I lived there it was so and so's house for lunch and another place for dinner. It was great fun as a kid! You are born into going to university. I couldn't choose anyone I wanted but from a selection made by my parents. No we are not rich but we are not poor either. Education is very important and families will do basically what it takes if possible to send their kids to university. Without a degree over there life really sucks, which is what the media focuses on. Long gone are the days that women stay home and have kids. Many are doctors, lawyers, etc which some can make more than men like my aunt does because women in general tend to prefer women professionals for their services. If not for the revolution and then the following fall out with the wars and all, I'd probably be over there doing much better than I am here. But with all the unrest and no real change in site, it's not worth it no matter how much money I could make. But for those there, it's not worth it to move here as my aunt for example says every year we are coming (her kids are here along with her siblings in CA) but to give it up? No way!

 

[TPW]

Did you not read my post above? Did I say everyone there lives a great life? But many more do than what the media portrays. And by no means does anyone from any country says the government over there is a good one. Can't do much about that unfortunately. If you are educated and bonus in a white collar position, yes, you live a better life than you do here despite the cost of living and economy. If not, then yes, it sucks.

I read it but I also want it to be really clear that things like acid attacks for supposed immodesty and the execution of homosexuals, blasphemers, and political prisoners are NOT things which occur in civilized societies. Iran is also indirectly responsible for the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq via its aid to Shia insurgents.

The U.S. has its own problems but comparisons between the two nations are specious at best.

 

[CurlyNight]

Did you not read my post above? Did I say everyone there lives a great life? But many more do than what the media portrays. And by no means does anyone from any country says the government over there is a good one. Can't do much about that unfortunately. If you are educated and bonus in a white collar position, yes, you live a better life than you do here despite the cost of living and economy. If not, then yes, it sucks.

I read it but I also want it to be really clear that things like acid attacks for supposed immodesty and the execution of homosexuals, blasphemers, and political prisoners are NOT things which occur in civilized societies. Iran is also indirectly responsible for the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq via its aid to Shia insurgents.

The U.S. has its own problems but comparisons between the two nations are specious at best.

You haven't read all my posts. When did I say all is great over there and there is nothing wrong with those in power? And I never compared the 2 nations. We don't condone what happens over there at all. The extremists do. My posts started when someone brought up how Islam as a religion is like what they see on tv, that it's how all of us think. Not! And the general painting of how oppressed everyone there is... well that's when I shared my view being persian and all. I'm not debating the atrocities that a certain group within the larger group does as there is no debate on it. This is the reason why people like my mom don't answer the question of I love your accent, where are you from?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

It's about how those in power treat the rest. It's a problem everywhere, in both the democratic U.S.A., theocratic Iran, and every other nation and culture around the world. Pointing to how good life is for those in power in any culture doesn't tell the story, IMO. It's how the poorest and the weakest live that really tells the story of how tolerant, compassionate, and progressive things are.

 

[CurlyNight]

Is there a civilized country where those in power don't live the best life?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Is there a civilized country where those in power don't live the best life?

Exactly.

 

[timschochet]

I have no problem with Tim. I understand his position well.

To me, it's about where we are today- 2014 A.D.. Many religions- indeed most- started with barbaric aspects. Fear was a part of the "selling point." But, where are we today, 3,000 years after Moses, 2,000 years after Christ and 1,300 after Muhammad? Apart from fringe sects, the mainstream churches in Judaism and Christianity do not persecute women and gays. They have evolved. They have learned. They realize parts of their bibles are unworthy of further recitation. But, there is no evidence Islam has evolved one iota, or learned one thing. The presence of religious police and the mandatory imprisonment for apostasy in almost every Muslim nation signifies women and gays must live in terror throughout the Muslim world, not simply in a few places or persecuted by a few. The "few" nonsense is a lie. Evil is a structural component of Islam.

I don't have a probem with you either. I have a real problem with some of the stuff you have written. I don't disagree with most of the facts you have stated, or even some of your analysis of the facts along the way. I find your conclusions, however to be irrational and unfortunate. Again you are willing to condemn a whole religion for the actions of a few. Those who have committed atrocities, like members of the Taliban this morning, represent less than .001% of all Muslims in the world. Most of these atrocities are against fellow Muslims. None of this excuses the horror. But to blame the entire religion...it's the essence of bigotry.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Imagine, religion being used to excuse culpability.

Imagine, leaders cynically using true believers to do their bidding while they themselves may or may not believe.

I always thought of Iran as the re-flowering of Islam, not seen for hundreds of years. Then, back in the 70's, rather than let Iran lead the region into prosperity fearful religious fanatics, unable to negotiate societal change, managed to grab it by the ankles just as it stood to stride away and they dragged it back into the swamp.

The Shah, on his Peacock Throne, enjoying his false imperial persona, failed us all.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

I have no problem with Tim. I understand his position well.

To me, it's about where we are today- 2014 A.D.. Many religions- indeed most- started with barbaric aspects. Fear was a part of the "selling point." But, where are we today, 3,000 years after Moses, 2,000 years after Christ and 1,300 after Muhammad? Apart from fringe sects, the mainstream churches in Judaism and Christianity do not persecute women and gays. They have evolved. They have learned. They realize parts of their bibles are unworthy of further recitation. But, there is no evidence Islam has evolved one iota, or learned one thing. The presence of religious police and the mandatory imprisonment for apostasy in almost every Muslim nation signifies women and gays must live in terror throughout the Muslim world, not simply in a few places or persecuted by a few. The "few" nonsense is a lie. Evil is a structural component of Islam.

I don't have a probem with you either. I have a real problem with some of the stuff you have written. I don't disagree with most of the facts you have stated, or even some of your analysis of the facts along the way. I find your conclusions, however to be irrational and unfortunate. Again you are willing to condemn a whole religion for the actions of a few. Those who have committed atrocities, like members of the Taliban this morning, represent less than .001% of all Muslims in the world. Most of these atrocities are against fellow Muslims. None of this excuses the horror. But to blame the entire religion...it's the essence of bigotry.

OK, but what if we go beyond just the overt violence and talk about outdated morals? Like treatment of women and gays? Religion just simply has not kept pace with the advancement of morality in secular, democratic institutions. Islam is clearly the worst, but even Christian America continues to lag behind on acceptance of gay people, for example. My beef isn't necessarily with "all Muslims" so much as it is with "all religion". Notice, a key difference being that I denounce the ideology, not the person/people.

 

[Henry Ford]

Uber turned on surge pricing during the attack, charging a minimum of $100 AUS for a ride.

Australians have started the hashtag #illridewithyou to identify people who will ride public transportation for Muslims in Sydney who feel threatened wearing religious garb on public transportation.

 

[Swing 51]

Australians have started the hashtag #illridewithyou to identify people who will ride public transportation for Muslims in Sydney who feel threatened wearing religious garb on public transportation.

 

[CurlyNight]

Australians have started the hashtag #illridewithyou to identify people who will ride public transportation for Muslims in Sydney who feel threatened wearing religious garb on public transportation.

Even those of us who are not religious at all nor wear the garb always pause for a moment after such attacks, especially for my family as this guy was persian. It's very sad. I hate seeing some people in my family not willing to say to strangers who ask where you are from, where they are from. They say they are from here which they have been here for years, but it's not where they were born...

 

[Sinn Fein]

I have no problem with Tim. I understand his position well.

To me, it's about where we are today- 2014 A.D.. Many religions- indeed most- started with barbaric aspects. Fear was a part of the "selling point." But, where are we today, 3,000 years after Moses, 2,000 years after Christ and 1,300 after Muhammad? Apart from fringe sects, the mainstream churches in Judaism and Christianity do not persecute women and gays. They have evolved. They have learned. They realize parts of their bibles are unworthy of further recitation. But, there is no evidence Islam has evolved one iota, or learned one thing. The presence of religious police and the mandatory imprisonment for apostasy in almost every Muslim nation signifies women and gays must live in terror throughout the Muslim world, not simply in a few places or persecuted by a few. The "few" nonsense is a lie. Evil is a structural component of Islam.

I don't have a probem with you either. I have a real problem with some of the stuff you have written. I don't disagree with most of the facts you have stated, or even some of your analysis of the facts along the way. I find your conclusions, however to be irrational and unfortunate. Again you are willing to condemn a whole religion for the actions of a few. Those who have committed atrocities, like members of the Taliban this morning, represent less than .001% of all Muslims in the world. Most of these atrocities are against fellow Muslims. None of this excuses the horror. But to blame the entire religion...it's the essence of bigotry.

OK, but what if we go beyond just the overt violence and talk about outdated morals? Like treatment of women and gays? Religion just simply has not kept pace with the advancement of morality in secular, democratic institutions. Islam is clearly the worst, but even Christian America continues to lag behind on acceptance of gay people, for example. My beef isn't necessarily with "all Muslims" so much as it is with "all religion". Notice, a key difference being that I denounce the ideology, not the person/people.

I don't think you realize just how far women have advanced in our society in just the last 50-60 years (and how far they still have to go), and gays are still not widely accepted in society here.

Not so sure we are in position to start stoning people from the top of our glass tower. Its not like we have been "evolved" for centuries. It was not that long ago (in the scheme of 3000, 2000, 1300 years ago) that many people - important, smart, "evolved" people in this country thought that owning african slaves was a good idea.

The truth is, we have changed views very rapidly and very recently on a number of topics - and while the whole world might not move at our pace, its not like we are light year ahead.

 

[rockaction]

Sydney Hostage Taker Identified as Man Haron MonisMan Haron Monis, a self-proclaimed Islamic “sheikh” and alleged sexual predator, has been identified as the gunman who was holding multiple people hostage in an hours-long standoff in a café in Sydney, according to Australian media.

Overnight hostages reportedly spoke to Australian television stations and identified their captor, though police requested outlets not publish it at the time. At around 11 a.m. EST, the situation came to a violent end when police stormed the café, freeing several hostages amid flashes from stun grenades and gunfire. It’s not clear what happened to Monis in the operation.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/sydney-hostage-taker-identified-man-haron-monis/story?id=27607179

Charged with 40 counts of molesting women, and with assisting in the murder of his ex-wife

Suicide by SWAT indeed

But this Sydney Morning Herald editorial says that we must have empathy for Monis and forgive him...

Martin Place siege response tests our humanity

The siege in the Lindt cafe in Martin Place has tested Australians as individuals, and Australia as a civil and democratic society.

In fact we are having to face many tests, each of which challenges who we are, how we respond to criminal dangers in our midst and, most confronting, what sort of nation we want to be.

First and foremost, we have faced yet another test of our empathy. Like the Bali bombings and myriad natural disasters, our thoughts are with the innocent victims: those inside the cafe who were caught up in a tragic situation for no other reason than they were going about their daily lives. Our thoughts are with their loved ones, too, for the hard times ahead.

Perhaps we face an even more difficult test of our empathy as well. How should we feel for the perpetrator so far witnessed and his family? While we do not know his story or his motivation, we know he was once someone just like those people whose lives he has now treated with such disdain. He must have loved ones, too. Forgiving him will be very difficult, and it will take time. Without forgiveness, though, we have to live with destructive hate.

full article

I always find these responses bear more on the paternalistic nature and politics of the author rather than the populace. It's trivial, stupid, condescending bull####. It's the old William F. Buckley saw where he'd rather pick the first 100 people in the Boston phone book to govern him than the faculty at Harvard. Same goes for condescending journalists and the op-ed pages.

No thank you, fellas. Keep your opinions on the page where I can just flip over it.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

I don't think you realize just how far women have advanced in our society in just the last 50-60 years (and how far they still have to go), and gays are still not widely accepted in society here.

Not so sure we are in position to start stoning people from the top of our glass tower. Its not like we have been "evolved" for centuries. It was not that long ago (in the scheme of 3000, 2000, 1300 years ago) that many people - important, smart, "evolved" people in this country thought that owning african slaves was a good idea.

The truth is, we have changed views very rapidly and very recently on a number of topics - and while the whole world might not move at our pace, its not like we are light year ahead.

Agree, to a point. I would still argue that even 50, 60, 100 years ago, we were quite a bit ahead of where some of these nations are today. Not having the right to vote pales in comparison to FGM, honor killings, etc. They really are stuck in the Bronze Age in a lot of ways. And while women and gays may still have a long way to go in terms of truly being treated equally in America, at least our laws on paper give them equal rights, which is a huge difference.

The founding principle of separation of church and state in this country has at least something to do with this disparity. I would also argue that our recent, rapid changes coincide in part with the casting off of religious dogma. For example, I would say that most of the folks in this country that are still kicking and screaming about gay marriage, are doing so with a bible in their hand.

 

[msommer]

Is there a civilized country where those in power don't live the best life?

Define in power.

My definition has Obama in power in the US.

Does he live better than Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg, Jerry Jones etc.?

 

[PinkydaPimp]

This guy gets it

MY Link