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Tanking in dynasty (1 Viewer)

If you aren't making an effort to start a competitive and complete lineup because there's no incentive to win it's tanking. 
:wall:

Good luck rebuilding in a competitive league with that neanderthal philosophy.  

In my league where I did a major rebuild I made an effort to accumulate as much value as I possibly could in order to try and be good the following year.  With 20 roster spots, and about 7 of my players on IR, there was no chance I could field a full lineup most weeks unless I was dropping good players, which would obviously be really stupid. 

But yeah, I should have just dropped 2 of my good players so I could run Oaklands D and Clevelands Kicker out there for about 4 points for a week while other teams scoop up my players that I released.  Great idea.  

It also had nothing to do with draft position.  Had the draft position been determined by a random drawing out of a hat it would not have changed what I did.  It just so happens that players who are injured/suspended are easier to acquire when they are (you guessed it) injured or suspended, and their value is shifted towards the following year.  

 
I guess in a nutshell, you should not be forced to make bad roster moves just to satisfy a rule or ethics.  Also, you should not be prohibited from making good roster moves just to satisfy a rule or ethics.  

Neither of these things has anything to do with starting your best lineup.  

 
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So I should dump my top end K and D and end up with the 18th rated K and D?

Maybe leagues should allow a "bonus" spot when a K or D is on bye where you can keep them and add a one week filler.  There, problem solved.  

Either way, I am not going to drop a good kicker or defense just because YOU think that is what should happen.
Most leagues and scoring systems I have been in end up lumping the majority of Kickers and Defenses together.  In addition very few owners I know keep kickers or defenses from year to year because they are virtually identical when it comes down to it (other than the select few).  However, if I was in rebuild mode (which is most of the situations being discussed that are being called out as tanking) I wouldn't be worried about keeping a kicker or a defense and I would want to use those roster spots (at the conclusion of the season) to pickup lottery ticket type RB's or WR's.  I would acquire a kicker and/or defense during the offseason as we approached the new year and some of the lottery tickets prove to be busts. 

And if that kicker was that good then why not trade them to a contender for assets.  The difference between the best kicker and 12th best kicker is at most a few points a week. 

 
Choosing to not trade for an aging star because it doesn't help them achieve their goals is far different than choosing to start players on a bye and fielding an uncompetitive lineup given other readily available alternatives. 

Perhaps you are the exception but the behavior you are saying you exhibit (starting players on a bye because you must keep that end of bench prospect while in a heated playoff race) doesn't happen in leagues I play in. It tends to happen when teams are out of it, not when they are scrapping for every point they can get. 
It's a question of costs. Trading a prospect for an aging star is (losing asset that helps me in the future, when I will be competitive) to (acquire asset that helps me now, when I am not competitive). Cutting a prospect for a bye-week fill-in is (losing asset that helps me in the future, when I will be competitive) to (acquire asset that helps me now, when I am not competitive).

I mean, if the league has 30-man rosters and an owner is holding on to Zach Miller rather than acquiring a bye-week fill-in, sure, that's egregious. If the league has 20-man rosters, the owner has seven guys on IR, and it's more a question of dropping Gerald Everett to acquire a bye-week fill-in... I've got no problem with that owner starting someone injured or on bye.

I wrote about intentionally taking a zero (for non-tanking reasons) last year. Relevant section quoted:

There’s one last reason an owner might want to take a zero that has nothing to do with minimizing variance. In redraft leagues with shallow benches, sometimes bye weeks leave an owner facing a conundrum between dropping a quality player for a short-term fill-in or taking a zero at a position.

This problem also faces dynasty teams who are loaded up with quality prospects. Is it worthwhile to drop a 22-year-old receiver who could be a long-term fixture just to grab a journeyman who can get you six points for a week?

Most of the time, I would say the answer is no. The truth is that the majority of fantasy football games are not particularly close.

In a standard scoring league I play that starts 1 quarterback, 2 running backs, 2 wide receivers, 1 tight end, and 1 flex, for instance, only 24% of games have been within 10 points, and only 7% have been within 5 points.

Let’s say that Cole Beasley is available on waivers. Beasley is the 23rd-ranked wide receiver in that format, has topped five points every time, and has topped 10 points 37.5% of the time— he’s a very solid short-term fill-in, probably better than many owners might have available.

But in order for that fill-in to matter, my game would have to be within 10 points, (24%), I’d have to be on the losing side of the ledger, (50%), and Beasley would have to score more than 10 points, (37.5%). Multiply all those percentages out and there’s about a 1-in-20 chance that taking a zero instead of picking up Cole Beasley costs me a win.

This math is greatly simplified to illustrate the point— the actual odds are higher than that, and will partly depend on how good the rest of my team is and how good my opponent is.

In fact, using the same league as an example, (because it’s my only ESPN league and therefore the only league where owners designated players as weekly flex starters), I can check how often a team’s flex starter made the difference between a win and a loss. (This operates under the theory that most teams use their worst starter in the flex slot, which as part one indicates, shouldn’t be the case if everyone is managing their team optimally.)

That league has featured 90 team-games so far. Of those 90 games, six would have gone from a win to a loss had the team taken a zero at the flex position, and one more would have become a tie. That means taking a zero at the flex position would have impacted just 7.8% of games if we count the tie as a full loss, or 7.2% if we count the tie as half a loss.

And again, the caliber of average flex player should be a bit higher than whatever options are available on the street. In practice, I’d estimate that for most owners, there’s about a 5-8% chance that taking a zero at a lower-scoring position winds up costing a win. Which, depending on what you’d have to drop, could easily be worth the risk.




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If you aren't making an effort to start a competitive and complete lineup because there's no incentive to win it's tanking. Regardless of the draft position angle. At the beginning of the year when everyone thinks they still have chance you never see people starting players on bye because they HAVE to hold onto that "top 3 D, PK, end of bench prospect". This behavior only occurs with teams who no longer have a shot to make playoffs and make the choice to stop winning because a) it helps their draft position and b) they can use the lame excuse that they prefer to hold end of bench prospect, start bye week PK/D rather she lose said PK/D/Prospect. The reality is Noone's team is just so stacked that they just have to hold onto these players and take the zero. If it was then they would be in the playoff hunt to begin with.
I disagree here. Early in the year a player has an incentive to win, and makes the decision to drop that end of bench player for a bye week kicker because they still NEED to win. It's definitely a grey area once that NEED to win is gone (the squad is eliminated). At that point, it's a bigger ask to request a team to drop a legit prospect for a bye week kicker when winning isn't even in their best interests. If there is no rule against bye week players, I would have a hard time giving someone too hard a time for not dropping a top PK or DST. After all...having that top PK or DSt also gives them a (slightly) better chance of winning the following week, doesn't it?

There are better solutions, many mentioned in this thread:

- Favored toilet bowl match-ups with an extra pick as the prize

- Weekly prizes for the best score among eliminated teams

- Draft slots for non-playoff teams decided by potential points

- This specific issue (the bye week defense/PK) could be gotten around by allowing the year long median score instead of dropping the PK or defense in favor of another. Many leagues have rules requiring complete (active) lineups, reasonable enough as long as benches are reasonably large, but perhaps unfair in leagues with shorter benches.

 
Most leagues and scoring systems I have been in end up lumping the majority of Kickers and Defenses together.  In addition very few owners I know keep kickers or defenses from year to year because they are virtually identical when it comes down to it (other than the select few).  However, if I was in rebuild mode (which is most of the situations being discussed that are being called out as tanking) I wouldn't be worried about keeping a kicker or a defense and I would want to use those roster spots (at the conclusion of the season) to pickup lottery ticket type RB's or WR's.  I would acquire a kicker and/or defense during the offseason as we approached the new year and some of the lottery tickets prove to be busts. 

And if that kicker was that good then why not trade them to a contender for assets.  The difference between the best kicker and 12th best kicker is at most a few points a week. 
In that league it is a requirement that you roster one kicker and one defense at all times.

In that league, the top kickers and top defenses outscore the middle of the pack by plenty. 

In that league, I would be happy to trade the kicker or defense in the right deal, which actually did happen towards the trade deadline, which was AFTER that kicker's bye week (meaning I had already had a zero in my lineup for that bye week).  

 
Yep.

I had yet to encounter this problem until this year. Good long term owner, we don't know him personally but have played with for more than 5 years, seems like a good guy, sat Zeke on the weeks he was supposed to be suspended but ended up playing. He set his lineup and then got busy the rest of the week so he didn't change it. Looks like tanking, but it's a unique situation. We ended up not implementing the tanking rules against him although he'll probably end up with a top 3, possibly #1 pick because he didn't start Zeke (would have won with him in the lineup those weeks). 

Honestly I was leaning towards penalizing him for those games but not the full 8 spots as we have in the rules for deliberate tanking. I'm the assistant commish and the full commish opted to not penalize at all. 
Not to mention the other owner who currently holds the 1.01 but has "failed" to enter a valid lineup for 4-5 weeks  :wall:

 
Do you think what the OP described sounds like a healthy league that's going to last? If you're team A and you need team B to lose to make the playoffs do you want to see team C (B's opponent) start 5 guys on a bye or out injured?

Sure you could say "everyone is doing it and it's within the rules so I will too" or you can fight to effectuate change for the better. That league is in serious need of a anti-tanking rule, and if the OP just sits back and joins in on the tank-fest instead of speaking up, he's just as guilty of ruining his league.
Right now it is not a healthy league....I wouldn't be surprised to see major turnover in owners at the end of this year or the league to implode and cease to exist. I only know a couple of the owners through a mutual friend.  The only thing I have invested is time over the last 4 years.  I will continue to put out my best line up and let the chips fall.  I don't want to be that guy that no one knows who tells them how to run the league.  There isn't any money at stake, so no worries there.  

 
There are a lot of different circumstances and different types of leagues also. 

If I am in a league with friends for low money, I am going to probably run things different.

However, in the FFPC where I was in a $750 league with people I have never met, I am doing whatever is best for my team within the rules.  Total cut throat in that league.  Not a care in the world what any of the other owners think.  However, it's a delicate balance since I still had to stay in their good graces for trading purposes.  It all worked out. 

Big difference between a "fun" league and a "competitive" league.  Not a lot of leagues out there that are both.

 
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So I should dump my top end K and D and end up with the 18th rated K and D?

Maybe leagues should allow a "bonus" spot when a K or D is on bye where you can keep them and add a one week filler.  There, problem solved.  

Either way, I am not going to drop a good kicker or defense just because YOU think that is what should happen.
No you don't HAVE to "dump" them but you have to make your roster right to field a complete lineup. Week 4 of the season are you starting bye week players because you just have to keep that elite PK/D or end of bench prospect?  Didn't think so. And the end of bench is used by most for prospect churn. The idea that at the end of the year you are done churning those spots is preposterous and that you can just do whatever you want and screw the leagues integrity even more so.

 
No you don't HAVE to "dump" them but you have to make your roster right to field a complete lineup. Week 4 of the season are you starting bye week players because you just have to keep that elite PK/D or end of bench prospect?  Didn't think so. And the end of bench is used by most for prospect churn. The idea that at the end of the year you are done churning those spots is preposterous and that you can just do whatever you want and screw the leagues integrity even more so.
You are going to have to provide me some specific examples of what you mean otherwise you are just spouting off assumptions and generalizations that probably are not the reality of what I am describing.

As for week 4 in a rebuild, if i have enough players on IR and do not see anyone on waivers that I prefer to who I already have, then yeah, its possible i would have to start a player on a bye week.  

In the rebuild I did i had so many players get hurt and traded for so many other injured players that it wasnt even possible for me to field a full lineup unless I dropped guys that were obviously not players who should be dropped

 
I disagree here. Early in the year a player has an incentive to win, and makes the decision to drop that end of bench player for a bye week kicker because they still NEED to win. It's definitely a grey area once that NEED to win is gone (the squad is eliminated). At that point, it's a bigger ask to request a team to drop a legit prospect for a bye week kicker when winning isn't even in their best interests. If there is no rule against bye week players, I would have a hard time giving someone too hard a time for not dropping a top PK or DST. After all...having that top PK or DSt also gives them a (slightly) better chance of winning the following week, doesn't it?

There are better solutions, many mentioned in this thread:

- Favored toilet bowl match-ups with an extra pick as the prize

- Weekly prizes for the best score among eliminated teams

- Draft slots for non-playoff teams decided by potential points

- This specific issue (the bye week defense/PK) could be gotten around by allowing the year long median score instead of dropping the PK or defense in favor of another. Many leagues have rules requiring complete (active) lineups, reasonable enough as long as benches are reasonably large, but perhaps unfair in leagues with shorter benches.
If there is No rule then even though I don't like it I have no qualms. I'm talking about leagues where there are ones and people just choose to ignore them and then make the lame excuses as above. It has real implications on teams fighting for spots. If you're doing it in leagues where rules are in place using said excuses then you should get the boot w/o getting anything back. 

 
If there is No rule then even though I don't like it I have no qualms. I'm talking about leagues where there are ones and people just choose to ignore them and then make the lame excuses as above. It has real implications on teams fighting for spots. If you're doing it in leagues where rules are in place using said excuses then you should get the boot w/o getting anything back. 
If you are referring to my posts in some way, then the bolded makes no sense.  I didn't break any rules.

 
We charge a $10 penalty if you start a bye-week player. So it can be an option if you're good with the cost. For reference, we're a $80 buy-in, $1 transaction league.

 
You are going to have to provide me some specific examples of what you mean otherwise you are just spouting off assumptions and generalizations that probably are not the reality of what I am describing.

As for week 4 in a rebuild, if i have enough players on IR and do not see anyone on waivers that I prefer to who I already have, then yeah, its possible i would have to start a player on a bye week.  

In the rebuild I did i had so many players get hurt and traded for so many other injured players that it wasnt even possible for me to field a full lineup unless I dropped guys that were obviously not players who should be dropped
Not sure what kind of examples you're looking for. 

If you're starting these players on bye and it's within the league rules so be it. Perhaps you're on very short roster leagues where it's impossible sometimes not to do it. In those types of leagues I would assume the league rules allow it. If so, go for it. If not, no excuses. Perhaps we are taking apples and oranges here. 

I play mostly in 24-30 man roster leagues. That is where I'm coming from.

Outside of purposeful bye week starts because one doesn't have better prospects on WW (while I don't like it I don't totally discount its merit) time and time again people who are out of it starting in week 7 or 8 all of a sudden get busy, have family emergencies, lose their phones, drop their phones in toilets, their dog ate their homework, go on camping/hunting/spelunkering trips, vacations to Nepal, Yoga trips to India,  join the peace corp, blabla where they are out of touch for 5 days and "forget" about setting their lineups. 

Tiresome.

 
If you are referring to my posts in some way, then the bolded makes no sense.  I didn't break any rules.
I wasn't. I was responding to his post. But if it's within your league rules then have at it. My league rules don't allow it and that's where I take issue when people do it anyways and then explain it away.

 
If you aren't making an effort to start a competitive and complete lineup because there's no incentive to win it's tanking. Regardless of the draft position angle. At the beginning of the year when everyone thinks they still have chance you never see people starting players on bye because they HAVE to hold onto that "top 3 D, PK, end of bench prospect". This behavior only occurs with teams who no longer have a shot to make playoffs and make the choice to stop winning because a) it helps their draft position and b) they can use the lame excuse that they prefer to hold end of bench prospect, start bye week PK/D rather she lose said PK/D/Prospect. The reality is Noone's team is just so stacked that they just have to hold onto these players and take the zero. If it was then they would be in the playoff hunt to begin with.
This really depends on the league setup.  I have an 16 team IDP dynasty league with 54 man rosters, 5 man taxi squad, and the players have salaries, sometimes with bonuses that can be accelerated if you drop a player.  Every starting QB, every K is rostered and if you have one of them go down and you have a bye week you aren't necessarily going to be able to fill the position due to lack of player being available or due to the cost of acquiring one being too high.  In that league we a few weeks ago had a guy intentionally tank a game (intentionally played bye players, took obvious starters out of the lineup for scrubs, even played a couple of guys who weren't even on NFL rosters) and the whole league came down on him hard on the message boards to the point that he quit and we had to find a new owner.  Nobody was going to tolerate that sort of business.

BTW, there is a major difference between trading vets for multiple prospects or picks that hurt you short term and intentionally playing scrubs or bye players with the sole intent of losing the game.  In the first case losing is a byproduct of trying to strengthen your team in the long run whereas in the second case losing is the objective. 

 
I don't mind tanking, so long as that last week it doesn't directly effect another team making/missing the playoffs. Otherwise, play your best squad and be a decent leaguemate. Could be you next year getting screwed.

 
I don't mind tanking, so long as that last week it doesn't directly effect another team making/missing the playoffs. Otherwise, play your best squad and be a decent leaguemate. Could be you next year getting screwed.
:porked:

I don't get it.  You are fine with tanking except for week 13?

 
BTW, there is a major difference between trading vets for multiple prospects or picks that hurt you short term and intentionally playing scrubs or bye players with the sole intent of losing the game.  In the first case losing is a byproduct of trying to strengthen your team in the long run whereas in the second case losing is the objective. 
Exactly.  "Not trying to win" is very different than "trying to lose".  

 
ghostguy123 said:
Exactly.  "Not trying to win" is very different than "trying to lose".  
I think that is the bottom line point for this discussion.  Dynasty leagues have a different purpose and sometimes that includes rebuilding for the future.  But there is a huge difference between sacrificing the current season for the future and trying to lose.  I think that is where most of us are drawing the line.

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.
No. But I'd ask in fantasy what people are asking in real life - Why didn't you have a better plan at QB than having to choose between Taylor and Petterman?

There's a difference between tanking and simply bad management.

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.
You can surely see how this analogy is terrible, correct?

 
I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.
And I think many people are talking about obvious examples (say benching Gurley for Wendell Smallwood). I read a few comments where people said there is not much you can do about subtle tanking because there is subjectivity involved.

 
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ghostguy123 said:
:porked:

I don't get it.  You are fine with tanking except for week 13?
Yes. There are some exceptions week 13, but in general yes. Like if a tank situation effects playoff seeding for a team that is already guaranteed in the playoffs, I don't mind. If it's a team that is like first team in/first team out situation then play your best lineup.

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.
In fantasy your backup is someone whose playing time is determined by his real life situation whereas in the Bills case they don't know what they have in Peterman and he won't get NFL experience without them deciding to play him.  In fantasy you can roster more youngsters at the expense of veterans in hope of them developing into good players for you in the future but you have absolutely no control over whether their NFL teams give them playing time or not.  Very, very bad analogy.

As for lineup choices, obviously it is very subjective and if you are starting a bye player it is easy for commish to say something.  If you are benching top 20 players for guys who have very little shot at playing time it is easy, if you have some bye issues and you are deciding between the 45th ranked WR and the 60th one who has a slightly better matchup it isn't going to be called out if you end up making the wrong choice. 

 
No. But I'd ask in fantasy what people are asking in real life - Why didn't you have a better plan at QB than having to choose between Taylor and Petterman?

There's a difference between tanking and simply bad management.
For me, it was rodgers being out for the year.

Sorry I didnt own two stud QBs

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.
That is a horrible analogy 

 
Yes. There are some exceptions week 13, but in general yes. Like if a tank situation effects playoff seeding for a team that is already guaranteed in the playoffs, I don't mind. If it's a team that is like first team in/first team out situation then play your best lineup.
So people have to make roster decisions based on the luck of the draw of who they play week 13.  Seems reasonable

 
Yes. There are some exceptions week 13, but in general yes. Like if a tank situation effects playoff seeding for a team that is already guaranteed in the playoffs, I don't mind. If it's a team that is like first team in/first team out situation then play your best lineup.
This doesn't make a lot of sense because a loss in week 2 is just as important as a loss in week 12 or 13 when fighting for a playoff spot or seeding.  Every win and loss matters a lot when you are in a situation with only 12 or 13 games. 

Why is it acceptable to throw a game when it only affects seeding?  That still has a consequence and influences the balance of the league.  It doesn't make sense that you are ok with throwing a game in certain circumstances but not others.  Why have a qualifier?

(Again this is when speaking of the difference of trying to specifically lose vs obtaining assets for future value over current value)

 
Question for the aggressive antitanking people in here...

If the Buffalo Bills were one of your league's fantasy teams and started Peterman over Taylor this week, would you accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, and penalize them?  Or force them to play Taylor by commish fiat?  Or what exactly...

I get very nervous when commissioners claim the right to judge my lineup choices.




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This is one of those places where comparisons between NFL and fantasy really fall apart. Buffalo giving Peterman starts *MAKES PETERMAN A BETTER PLAYER*. He is gaining experience. You can practice all you want, but there's no substitute for actual game action.

Additionally, Buffalo giving Peterman starts *GIVES BUFFALO ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT PETERMAN*. They'll never be able to tell if he's worth keeping around or cutting if they don't eventually start him.

In fantasy football, neither of those two effects come into play. Nathan Peterman will be exactly as good next Tuesday whether he's started by 8% of the fantasy teams that own him or 87% of the fantasy teams that own him. Additionally, every one of his owners will know exactly as much about how good he is whether they start him or leave him on their bench. So really this is comparing apples and dump trucks.

If I played in a crazy dynasty league that gave players a 0.1 point bonus for every additional week you had started them before and where you weren't allowed to watch any players play, read any game recaps involving those players, or check out their numbers in the box score unless you actually had them in your starting lineup... then hell yeah, I'd say a bad team could start Peterman to their heart's content. How else were they going to make him a better player in the long-term or even find out how good he was in the first place?

 
Wow...usually I'm in the political forum when every single responder thinks I'm a moron.  Maybe I am, but wasn't expecting such an overwhelming consensus.

Not seeing what is so terrible with the analogy.  It is, after all, an analogy, and like most can be stretched beyond recognition.  But this seems relevant to me:

The Bills are "in contention" theoretically, and certainly are playing teams that are in contention.  Yet they are starting a QB that many observers are absolutely convinced is inferior, gives them a lower chance to win, and helps their opponents.  Many of these people have literally accused the Bills of tanking by doing this.

If I decide to start Blake Bortles over Tom Brady this week on my fantasy team, I expect a lot of observers would say I am starting a QB that is inferior, gives me a lower chance to win, and helps my opponent.  Many of these people would likely accuse me of tanking.

Seems fairly similar to me.  I want to play in leagues where my lineup decisions arent subject to review by popular consensus.  Especially given that consensus is often wrong on a week to week basis.  I sometimes make contrarian lineup decisions and would be outraged if a commissioner felt like he could veto or penalize such.  We arent talking about playing Drew Stanton knowing he's out.  We're talking about judgements being made as to what is and isn't a competitive lineup.  I want each team to be able to make those judgements independently.

 
Wow...usually I'm in the political forum when every single responder thinks I'm a moron.  Maybe I am, but wasn't expecting such an overwhelming consensus.

Not seeing what is so terrible with the analogy.  It is, after all, an analogy, and like most can be stretched beyond recognition.  But this seems relevant to me:

The Bills are "in contention" theoretically, and certainly are playing teams that are in contention.  Yet they are starting a QB that many observers are absolutely convinced is inferior, gives them a lower chance to win, and helps their opponents.  Many of these people have literally accused the Bills of tanking by doing this.

If I decide to start Blake Bortles over Tom Brady this week on my fantasy team, I expect a lot of observers would say I am starting a QB that is inferior, gives me a lower chance to win, and helps my opponent.  Many of these people would likely accuse me of tanking.

Seems fairly similar to me.  I want to play in leagues where my lineup decisions arent subject to review by popular consensus.  Especially given that consensus is often wrong on a week to week basis.  I sometimes make contrarian lineup decisions and would be outraged if a commissioner felt like he could veto or penalize such.  We arent talking about playing Drew Stanton knowing he's out.  We're talking about judgements being made as to what is and isn't a competitive lineup.  I want each team to be able to make those judgements independently.
I think Adam Harstad gave some good examples why your analogy doesn't really translate from NFL to Fantasy.  

I do agree with you that owners should not be subjected to a commish wielding his subjective thoughts on your lineup from week to week as nobody knows what will happen from week to week.  Is it considered dumb by the consensus to start Bortles over Brady for fantasy purposes......sure.......but it doesn't mean the outcome will match the consensus' thoughts.  Personally I really only care if a team is playing the 4th string RB that only plays special teams over a Leveon Bell type talent or people on bye or out for the game.  Choosing to start Bortles over Brady.......I would disagree with them but so be it.  There have been plenty of times I have told other owners I thought their starter choices were horrible only to have that guy have a career day while the "stud" got injured and only played 10 snaps. 

As a Commish I have only contacted owners when players that are supposed to be out are in starting lineups confirming whether or not they know that guy isn't supposed to play or if they have guys on bye in their lineup.  Subjective choices like which QB to start......let them be.

 
Wow...usually I'm in the political forum when every single responder thinks I'm a moron.  Maybe I am, but wasn't expecting such an overwhelming consensus.

Not seeing what is so terrible with the analogy.  It is, after all, an analogy, and like most can be stretched beyond recognition.  But this seems relevant to me:

The Bills are "in contention" theoretically, and certainly are playing teams that are in contention.  Yet they are starting a QB that many observers are absolutely convinced is inferior, gives them a lower chance to win, and helps their opponents.  Many of these people have literally accused the Bills of tanking by doing this.

If I decide to start Blake Bortles over Tom Brady this week on my fantasy team, I expect a lot of observers would say I am starting a QB that is inferior, gives me a lower chance to win, and helps my opponent.  Many of these people would likely accuse me of tanking.

Seems fairly similar to me.  I want to play in leagues where my lineup decisions arent subject to review by popular consensus.  Especially given that consensus is often wrong on a week to week basis.  I sometimes make contrarian lineup decisions and would be outraged if a commissioner felt like he could veto or penalize such.  We arent talking about playing Drew Stanton knowing he's out.  We're talking about judgements being made as to what is and isn't a competitive lineup.  I want each team to be able to make those judgements independently.
The analogy is terrible and this new one is worse.  Brady is not playing poorly while Bortles is playing poorly by comparison.  Nobody on the planet would tell you that you were making the correct selection, even Blake Bortles would tell you it was wrong.  The Bills have lost two in a row while their current starter has played like hot garbage.  Their backup is an unknown quantity, they need to be able to be able to get him some playing time as it could factor into the decision on attempting to keep Taylor next year as well as determining if they need to take a QB earlier in next years draft.  There are financial decisions depending on this "audition" that you won't have in fantasy.  In fantasy you have to pick which player on your roster will give you the most points in a given week.  You have nothing to gain from starting Bortles over Brady other than the remote chance that this is the rare week that Blake outscores Tom.  Bills gain a good amount of info and starting experience for a young player by starting Peterman.

 
The Tyrod Taylor analogy would make more sense if you were talking about benching an underperforming player, like some did with Amari Cooper earlier in the year.  

The original analogy is not very good. 

 
We have a potential tanking issue in our league recently and it's caused a lot of bitter feelings.  Basically the bottom four teams in the league will play in a toilet bowl where the winner gets first overall so there is incentive to get into the bottom 4 if you are clearly not going to make the playoffs.  It's a 14 team league where only top 6 make the playoffs, 4 teams in a consolation bowl and 4 teams in the toilet bowl.

We have fines for tanking to get a better draft position and one owner is adamant that a team should be fined.  

Tanking in our league is considered as purposely not submitting your best lineup in hopes of losing a game to gain a better draft position.

The main problem is that this franchise played his best starters in all other positions other than kicker.  He played Hauschka over Tucker for weeks 12 & 13 and now that the playoffs have started he dropped Hauschka and is playing Tucker to try to win the toilet bowl and the first overall draft pick.

Is this tanking? Is Tucker a no-brainer starter over Hauschka?

Thoughts?

 
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IMO there is no such thing as a "no-brainer" kicker start.  Too inconsistent, and too many factors go into it.

Best kicker has a really good matchup?  Too many extra points.

Best kicker has solid matchup, but lesser kicker has good matchup in dome?  Hmm...

Best kicker has bad matchup, and lesser kicker has great matchup?  Sure.

And in this particular case, the Ravens offense has been so sketchy this season that I didnt even blink at someone benching Tucker.  He's nowhere near a safe kicker start.  And even then...I just typed the sentence "Maybe if he was benching Zuerlein for..." and had to erase it because I couldn't think of a kicker that would be obvious to end the sentence with, and I just did bench Zuerlein a couple weeks ago.

 
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habman said:
We have a potential tanking issue in our league recently and it's caused a lot of bitter feelings.  Basically the bottom four teams in the league will play in a toilet bowl where the winner gets first overall so there is incentive to get into the bottom 4 if you are clearly not going to make the playoffs.  It's a 14 team league where only top 6 make the playoffs, 4 teams in a consolation bowl and 4 teams in the toilet bowl.

We have fines for tanking to get a better draft position and one owner is adamant that a team should be fined.  

Tanking in our league is considered as purposely not submitting your best lineup in hopes of losing a game to gain a better draft position.

The main problem is that this franchise played his best starters in all other positions other than kicker.  He played Hauschka over Tucker for weeks 12 & 13 and now that the playoffs have started he dropped Hauschka and is playing Tucker to try to win the toilet bowl and the first overall draft pick.

Is this tanking? Is Tucker a no-brainer starter over Hauschka?

Thoughts?
Use / non-use of kickers doesn't dictate tanking.

 
Wow thanks guys.  Pleasantly surprised.  That is what I was trying to tell the guy that was so adamant about fining the team although I did not phrase it quite so eloquently. 

Basically I just told him that "It's a (expletive deleted) kicker!"

 
habman said:
We have a potential tanking issue in our league recently and it's caused a lot of bitter feelings.  Basically the bottom four teams in the league will play in a toilet bowl where the winner gets first overall so there is incentive to get into the bottom 4 if you are clearly not going to make the playoffs.  It's a 14 team league where only top 6 make the playoffs, 4 teams in a consolation bowl and 4 teams in the toilet bowl.

We have fines for tanking to get a better draft position and one owner is adamant that a team should be fined.  

Tanking in our league is considered as purposely not submitting your best lineup in hopes of losing a game to gain a better draft position.

The main problem is that this franchise played his best starters in all other positions other than kicker.  He played Hauschka over Tucker for weeks 12 & 13 and now that the playoffs have started he dropped Hauschka and is playing Tucker to try to win the toilet bowl and the first overall draft pick.

Is this tanking? Is Tucker a no-brainer starter over Hauschka?

Thoughts?
A kicker decision can only be tanking if Zuerlein is involved.  That said, maybe you could consider a different incentive structure.  Seems pretty random that the 11th place team gets to play for the #1 pick and the 10th place team doesn't.

 
Can the mods simply pin this thread. The topic comes up year after year with almost no consensus but at least new threads saying the same old things would no longer be created. 

 
A kicker decision can only be tanking if Zuerlein is involved.  That said, maybe you could consider a different incentive structure.  Seems pretty random that the 11th place team gets to play for the #1 pick and the 10th place team doesn't.
You are 100% correct.  It is a bad rule that gives incentive for finishing poorly and that is why we are scrapping it for next season.  Two years of bickering is enough.

Instead we are going to institute a lottery for all 8 non-playoff teams and the top 3 picks will be awarded on the result of the lottery.

For the lottery the 14th seed gets 8 balls, 13th 7, all the way to the 7th seed getting 1 ball.

There will then be a Toilet bowl with all 8 non-playoff teams and for each win earned in the Toilet Bowl that team will gain one extra ball.  

While it doesn't completely take away the incentive for tanking it should mitigate it greatly.

 
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You are 100% correct.  It is a bad rule that gives incentive for finishing poorly and that is why we are scrapping it for next season.  Two years of bickering is enough.

Instead we are going to institute a lottery for all 8 non-playoff teams and the top 3 picks will be awarded on the result of the lottery.

For the lottery the 14th seed gets 8 balls, 13th 7, all the way to the 7th seed getting 1 ball.

There will then be a Toilet bowl with all 8 non-playoff teams and for each win earned in the Toilet Bowl that team will gain one extra ball.  

While it doesn't completely take away the incentive for tanking it should mitigate it greatly.
I’ve been in a league that’s used that exact lottery for a long time (minus the toilet bowl which isn’t a bad idea) and it’s worked well. 

 
I find tanking to be a non issue. Does pick 1 to pick 5 really make a great difference? So many years pick 6 is as good as pick 1. I think it all shakes out in the end.

 
I find tanking to be a non issue. Does pick 1 to pick 5 really make a great difference? So many years pick 6 is as good as pick 1. I think it all shakes out in the end.
Tell that to E Elliot, Julio Jones and A J Green owners.  An argument for what you're saying is OBJ and David Johnson.

 
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I find tanking to be a non issue. Does pick 1 to pick 5 really make a great difference? So many years pick 6 is as good as pick 1. I think it all shakes out in the end.
Yes because in most any year pick one can be traded for pick 5 or 6 plus at least one more first, in some cases 2 or 3 more 1sts.  

 

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