Tanking (1 Viewer)

[Judge Smails]

Some excellent disussion and some really useful ideas. Thanks guys!

As to those who argue that this isnt tanking; Fair enough, I guess it all depends on what kind of dynasty league it is (full, 2, 4, 6 keeper etc.) but the inescapable fact is that once teams begin to trade away all of their best players for draft picks, they become non-competitive for the remainder of the year, and therefore make a joke of the head-to-head format right up until playoffs. You also cant argue the fact that being non-competitive is rewarded by higher draft picks the following year, whereas the guys who try to win every week can make it to the semi-finals and (in our league anyway) walk away with no cash and a low-end pick. To me, thats pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to achieve, namely, a league that is competitive and fun right up to the last week.

It's one of the reasons a lot of leagues decide not to do dynasty. A team has every right to decide they are better off trying to stockpile for future years and depleting a roster now, and it can make for some bad matchups down the stretch impacting who makes the playoffs. Comes with the territory.

 

[jwb]

Some excellent disussion and some really useful ideas. Thanks guys!

As to those who argue that this isnt tanking; Fair enough, I guess it all depends on what kind of dynasty league it is (full, 2, 4, 6 keeper etc.) but the inescapable fact is that once teams begin to trade away all of their best players for draft picks, they become non-competitive for the remainder of the year, and therefore make a joke of the head-to-head format right up until playoffs. You also cant argue the fact that being non-competitive is rewarded by higher draft picks the following year, whereas the guys who try to win every week can make it to the semi-finals and (in our league anyway) walk away with no cash and a low-end pick. To me, thats pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to achieve, namely, a league that is competitive and fun right up to the last week.

Here's where there might be some confusion. "Keep 6" (etc) is not a dynasty league to many people, including posters in this thread.

I agree you should try and win this year in any league but a true "keep everyone" dynasty league.

In dynasty leagues where draft picks are essentially just rookie picks, sometimes it makes perfect sense to blow up a team and start over.

 

[ImTheScientist]

I love when other people try to manage teams that are not their own.

I'm not trying to "manage" other teams. I just want people to manage their own.

They are managing .... You just don't agree with their management style.

 

[Adam Harstad]

For what it's worth, if you all don't mind a shameless plug, I wrote up a two-parter on tanking last year. What it is, why teams do it, how to get them to stop. Since the articles are from last season, they're both out from behind the paywall, too.

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=HarstadDiT14

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=HarstadDiP14

My personal definition of tanking, which has served me well, is that "Tanking is taking actions an owner otherwise would not have taken if draft order was not a consideration."

Trading DeAngelo Williams for a 2nd isn't tanking, for example, because if my team was eliminated, I'd gladly do that even if draft picks were already predetermined. (The fact that it does improve my draft pick in the process is a fortuitous bonus.) But starting a player on a bye is something that I would never do absent draft considerations, so that's pretty textbook tanking.

 

[bonscott]

Some excellent disussion and some really useful ideas. Thanks guys!

As to those who argue that this isnt tanking; Fair enough, I guess it all depends on what kind of dynasty league it is (full, 2, 4, 6 keeper etc.) but the inescapable fact is that once teams begin to trade away all of their best players for draft picks, they become non-competitive for the remainder of the year, and therefore make a joke of the head-to-head format right up until playoffs. You also cant argue the fact that being non-competitive is rewarded by higher draft picks the following year, whereas the guys who try to win every week can make it to the semi-finals and (in our league anyway) walk away with no cash and a low-end pick. To me, thats pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to achieve, namely, a league that is competitive and fun right up to the last week.

Here's where there might be some confusion. "Keep 6" (etc) is not a dynasty league to many people, including posters in this thread.

I agree you should try and win this year in any league but a true "keep everyone" dynasty league.

In dynasty leagues where draft picks are essentially just rookie picks, sometimes it makes perfect sense to blow up a team and start over.

Yea, I wonder if some of the OP problem is that he's not in a real dynasty league.

Dynasty = Keep EVERYONE from year to year, yearly draft for rookies

Anything less then keeping everyone is a "Keeper" league of some sort and those have different dynamics. For example in many/most keeper leagues trading for future picks is not allowed. But in dynasty it's standard practice.

Often in keeper leagues many of the things posted in this thread are used such as a toilet bowl for non-playoff teams and such to help combat actual tanking. Although you'll still have trades of players you can't keep for future keepers which some may feel is bad. But you don't want to get too "bad" because it's counter productive if you still need to do your best to win in the toilet bowl.

Anyway...it's a good idea to keep in mind the difference between dynasty and keeper leagues.

 

[spider321]

Yes, if you cannot keep everyone, you're in a keeper league, not a dynasty league.

My league is a dynasty league and w me use a "Toiket Bowl" to prevent tanking, and to keep things interesting for all 12 teams all season long.

 

[shady inc]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

 

[Ladsud]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

If I was commish id boot you out of the league for being a Dbag. Just one persons opinion tho.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

I'd say in a redraft it's less frowned upon, unless perhaps the team you're playing is competing for a playoff spot with other teams that would like to see that team lose. I still wouldn't do it anyway, as it likely falls into the "be careful what you wish for...." category.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

Adam has his definition of tanking as it applies to dynasty leagues. I have a similar definition for re-draft leagues, which I have in the constitution of the league I run:

"If you have to ask whether a given action would be considered tanking ... it is."

FWIW, two observations:

(1) I've probably seen your exact scenario play out 50 times across leagues I've been in, and at a guess I'd say that at least 60% of the time, the move backfires on the tanking owner. Fantasy karma is a strange and fearsome thing.

(2) In every league I run, the #1 seed gets to choose which of the other three teams (in leagues with 4 playoff spots) or two wild-card winners (in leagues with 6) to face in the first round of the playoffs. It basically eliminates late-season tanking, as the 1-seed has every incentive to finish there, and the other three seeds know that if they're the strongest team, they're not going to have to face the 1-seed initially, anyway.

 

[shady inc]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

I'd say in a redraft it's less frowned upon, unless perhaps the team you're playing is competing for a playoff spot with other teams that would like to see that team lose. I still wouldn't do it anyway, as it likely falls into the "be careful what you wish for...." category.

FWIW, 6 teams have already guaranteed a playoff spot at this point. 6 teams officially eliminated. the top 6 are all just playing for seeding. I'm playing another playoff team. Neither of us will get a bye.

But I agree with what other people said about karma. Need all the good karma in the playoffs

 

[SCT]

I'm in a pretty big league (20 teams, dynasty format) and every year at this time we have to deal with the issue of owners selling the farm for draft picks for next year. I'm sure every other league out there has to deal with this, so I thought maybe I'd seek input on how they handle it. Do nothing? Offer incentives to remain competitive? What do you guys do?

All input is welcome.

The rules must not motivate the owner to want to lose at any point. Traditional leagues that go in reverse draft order the next year do this. In my league, the 8 playoff teams are competing not only for the prize money but they also get a better draft pick for winning out. The superbowl champ gets pick #5, the runner up gets pick #6 and so on. The non-playoff teams play in a consolation bracket and the winner of that gets the #1 pick and the worst team gets the #4 pick.

 

[Adam Harstad]

I'm thinking about tanking this week in my re-draft league to try to face a weaker team in the 1st round of the playoffs (they have a good record, but had a lot of injuries recently). Is tanking less frowned upon in re-draft compared to dynasty?

I'd say in a redraft it's less frowned upon, unless perhaps the team you're playing is competing for a playoff spot with other teams that would like to see that team lose. I still wouldn't do it anyway, as it likely falls into the "be careful what you wish for...." category.

FWIW, 6 teams have already guaranteed a playoff spot at this point. 6 teams officially eliminated. the top 6 are all just playing for seeding. I'm playing another playoff team. Neither of us will get a bye.

But I agree with what other people said about karma. Need all the good karma in the playoffs

I'm vehemently anti-tanking in both redraft and dynasty, because I feel like the league as a whole relies on some basic underlying belief in competitive fairness. If you and I are racing for a playoff spot, and I had to face Bob when Bob was still going all out trying to win, and you get to face Bob after Bob has packed it in for the season and is intentionally trying to lose, that's not fair to me. I'm in a playoff race with someone who is just being given a free win while I'm out here working my butt off fighting for everything. That sucks.

With that said, your specific hypothetical wouldn't bother me nearly as much. If all playoff spots are locked up, and all byes are locked up, and the outcome of your game has literally no effect on anything except for the seeding of the 3-6 / 4-5 games, then that's a pretty minimal impact. I certainly wouldn't condone it, but I also wouldn't make a big fuss over it.

(This assumes that your game has no impact on who receives byes, which you did not explicitly make clear: you mentioned that neither you nor your opponent will get a bye, but there's some crazy remote chance that it impacts tiebreakers or something. Unlikely, though, and if not... I say tank away if you are willing to live with the consequences if your "favorable draw" winds up ousting you in the first round .)

 

[CR69]

I'm in a ten team superflex that has the top four play for the title. Teams 5-7 play for picks 4-6, and the teams 8-10 play for the top 3. It's worked out pretty well.

Trading vets for draft picks is not tanking. It's called getting value and improving your odds in the future.

 

[beef]

teams that tank isn't any worse than teams that deliberately try to rip off owners and make completely lopsided trades. both situations hurt leagues, yet one of them gets owners blackballed and the other applauded.