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Taunting “emphasis” is the worst rule change ever: agree or disagree? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hot Sauce Guy
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Billionaires don’t often, but NFL owners aren’t like other billionaires.
They actually often do things without deep consideration.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Chicago got the short end of the stick on so many bad calls last night, but that taunting call wasn't one of them. Marsh said it himself in the interview after the game, bad timing and bad luck. he wasn't taunting but it sure looked like he was. the punter happen to be running toward him at that spot too. the rule and the subjective nature of the enforcement imo will work itself out. this one was really an example of a perfect storm at the wrong time for the bears.
lots of great ideas in this thread though on how to deal with taunting, but getting rid of the calls is probably a bad idea. like stinkin ref is saying above, too much risk not calling those early and letting things get out of hand.
lots of great ideas in this thread though on how to deal with taunting, but getting rid of the calls is probably a bad idea. like stinkin ref is saying above, too much risk not calling those early and letting things get out of hand.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The only time a celebration should be penalized is if it’s a guy making a tackle for a loss or getting a sack in a game where his team is down 30 in the 3rd quarter.
That should be cause for ejection, and that player should have to lobby the NFL to return by writing an essay on when the appropriate time to celebrate is.
otherwise, go ham.
That should be cause for ejection, and that player should have to lobby the NFL to return by writing an essay on when the appropriate time to celebrate is.
otherwise, go ham.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
They did. The chop block on the goal line was a joke, then on same drive Fields took a late hit. If that were Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers it would have been a penalty. The other hit that Fields took was not a penalty as he slid way too late.
belljr
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one.
And I'll stop you before you post an example that you think demonstrates your contention because I'm going to disagree with it or point out that it is at best a very rare exception.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
It was a late slide, but in today’s NFL a tie goes to the runner. Every time.
They’ve consistently erred on the, “rather be criticized for a bad call than jeopardize a QBs health”
it just doesn’t seem to consistently apply to younger running QBs.
But Fields game himself up & that hit was clearly cause for a penalty.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
They don't all have the Street Fighter Celebration kick this guy has either, which seems like more than enough.
-What i don't understand is Referee Tony watches him do all this and then waits until the Bears player is running by him and he starts to "hip-check" the player he is throwing the flag on...could it be this is the guy's ninth season, or ninth stop, he's not a new guy in the NFL. Referee turns into him as he is running back to the Chicago bench and still had not thrown the flag until the two fo them collided and then the flag is rocket launched straight up into the air.
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Grahamburn
Footballguy
Not a bad parallel. These flags are game changing. It's akin to giving the other team a go ahead or tying run without them doing a thing to earn it in a lot of cases.
We're now seeing actual sacks called roughing the passer. Not sure what these guys are supposed to do anymore.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The Referee should be suspended for 1 game and docked a pay check, if a player pulled that crap they would be suspended by Roger for at least 1 game and perhaps multiple games.
as an official I can see how this plays out....to be honest Tony C was probably trying to give him the benefit of the doubt as long as he could....believe me, although people think its not the case, refs don't like to throw flags like this....he was reaching for his flag before dude came by him....Tony C is processing it the whole time.....trying to decide, and at some point he determined enough was enough and it warranted a flag...unsportsmanlike penalties are not cut and dry (like an offsides or something) and with such a huge penalty ....refs want to make sure it is justified....in many ways its like being able to justify something on a witness stand....you need to be able to support your decision....IMO his decision was correct, if the optics and timing of when he actually throws the flag bothers people, so be it....but this was really an easy call...
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I agree with everything but the “refs don’t like throwing flags” part.
Refs hate throwing flags like cops hate writing tickets. It shows their value, & justifies their very presence on the field. If no flags are thrown, some might wonder why they even bother employing refs.
some refs clearly want to be influential on the game, and this particular crew called it so lopsided that it became a running joke on the in-game topic. Big Ben gets breathed on and it’s 15 yards. Fields took back-to-back late hits & zero flags were thrown. The 2nd so egregious the defender took 2 full steps.
And of course the phantom chip that took a Graham TD off the board.
i agree that this particular play was textbook taunting, and he made contact. Easy call. But let’s not get carried away with the generalization that all refs hate throwing flags. Decades of evidence suggests otherwise.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
This is great, LOL.
In general, I really hate when the players taunt others. There is no reason to get in their face! It is classless and causes fights. Celebrate all you want, but don't rub it in their faces. Get up and move on. The entire argument about the refs not playing is just ignorant as far as I am concerned. Their job is to enforce the rules and call the game correctly, either you do that well or you don't. That being said, I do like taking the subjectivity out of the refs hands as much as possible. This is why I am in favor of the rule that the ball can't touch the ground or that you must get two feet in (you can get pushed out). Unfortunately, to stop QB's from getting buried and stop the torpedo helmet hits, you don't have much choice. I still don't get why they can't have some serious gel helmets? If two people have soft gel outside helmets it has to take some of the impact out.
It is never going to happen because of player's adrenaline after they make a good play so you will still see stuff happen. Do you like when the teams choreograph their touchdown/turnover celebrations? Isn't that in a sense taunting?
I agree and think a lot of us including myself were already frustrated with the officiating which made this out to be worse than it actually was. There has always been a lot of over the top celebrating which can be construed as taunting and I always chalk it up to the their aggression. I have a bigger problem when a player stands over another player or gets in their face. I think that should warrant a penalty and it is the only part of the rule that I agree with.
massraider
Footballguy
He's right.
There are a bunch of middle aged and older people who do NOT like this stuff. Their money counts, and the NFL is not in the business of freeing 22 year olds to express themselves.
The entertaining part, for most, was the play, not the silly dance afterwards.
No I don’t think that’s taunting and I doubt it triggers the other team when the scoring team plays hop scotch or pretends to bowl after a td. I find the choreographed after td celebrations mildly entertaining. Wouldn’t miss them if they were gone but wouldn’t want to see referees given discretion to flag which ones they deem too over the top. Drawing the line at anything aggressive directed at the opposing team seems right to me.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Which is completely up to interpretation by the ref.
And we’ve seen many, many, many examples of players doing a regular post-play celebration that the ref wrongly attributed to “taunting”. Some of them mystifyingly bad.
Largely I’m against “judgement call” penalties made by refs that have consistently displayed poor judgement.
it’s partly why I believe DPI should be a 15 yard penalty instead of a spot foul.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
While I agree with you, the reason for making it a penalty during the game if you want to see a real change in behavior you have a player's action affect the whole team.
If this was just a fine it would be largely ignored but I can guarantee you that every team reviewed and discussed taunting this week and stressed the importance of not doing anything that would negate a big play.
again I will ask those that think this penalty is stupid.....
imagine if what this guy did wasn't ever penalized and went on throughout the game from start to finish by both teams....do we think that is a good thing...?
imagine if what this guy did wasn't ever penalized and went on throughout the game from start to finish by both teams....do we think that is a good thing...?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
If it's consistent then you should know going into the game that you shouldn't give the guy any reason to throw the flag.
If the neighborhood dog consistently bites you when you taunt it...don't taunt it.
some of the biggest misconceptions by fans when it comes to officiating:
1. they want it to be about them: this is completely false...any official worth his/her salt would prefer to never even be noticed....
2. they are not held accountable: false....every play in an NFL game is graded for every official for positioning/judgement/etc....they get downgraded for bad performance and this affects their advancement into the playoffs and what kind of games they get to work moving forward..
3. they leave the insurance office Sunday morning and arrive at the game and work it: false, they prepare almost as much as the teams do....they watch film, talk amongst themselves and their supervisors, take weekly quizzes...attend weekly virtual meetings with supervisors....have to give responses to superiors on plays they were downgraded for, etc...they are sent replays on the game for them to review immediately after the game for on the way home...
4. they want to have an impact on the game: totally false....see #1....they would really prefer not to throw a flag at all and just let the players play.....but someone has to enforce the rules
5. they don't care, its just about the money: false....these guys are the best of the best and have worked their way up the ladder which takes a ton of time and commitment, often at the expense of family time....to a good official, there is nothing worse than "kicking" or missing a call....especially if it affects the outcome of a game....it keeps you up at night...it really does....there is no worse feeling....
6. they have an agenda: most don't....Tim Donohey or whatever his name was gave all officials a bad wrap....but he is the exception....how many more have we actually heard about?
now ....not gonna bury my head in the sand and say there aren't exceptions to the above....there are....and many of you may see them at the lower levels for sure....they are human...they make mistakes....they miss call calls...they misjudge things...they may be out of position on occasion....they may not see the "whole" play and make a call....but for the most part they do a pretty good job at a really tough job....if you haven't ever put a striped shirt on, it's easy to sit on your sofa and launch hand grenades about how "bad" these guys are....there are a ton of perfect "sofa referees" who never miss a call
1. they want it to be about them: this is completely false...any official worth his/her salt would prefer to never even be noticed....
2. they are not held accountable: false....every play in an NFL game is graded for every official for positioning/judgement/etc....they get downgraded for bad performance and this affects their advancement into the playoffs and what kind of games they get to work moving forward..
3. they leave the insurance office Sunday morning and arrive at the game and work it: false, they prepare almost as much as the teams do....they watch film, talk amongst themselves and their supervisors, take weekly quizzes...attend weekly virtual meetings with supervisors....have to give responses to superiors on plays they were downgraded for, etc...they are sent replays on the game for them to review immediately after the game for on the way home...
4. they want to have an impact on the game: totally false....see #1....they would really prefer not to throw a flag at all and just let the players play.....but someone has to enforce the rules
5. they don't care, its just about the money: false....these guys are the best of the best and have worked their way up the ladder which takes a ton of time and commitment, often at the expense of family time....to a good official, there is nothing worse than "kicking" or missing a call....especially if it affects the outcome of a game....it keeps you up at night...it really does....there is no worse feeling....
6. they have an agenda: most don't....Tim Donohey or whatever his name was gave all officials a bad wrap....but he is the exception....how many more have we actually heard about?
now ....not gonna bury my head in the sand and say there aren't exceptions to the above....there are....and many of you may see them at the lower levels for sure....they are human...they make mistakes....they miss call calls...they misjudge things...they may be out of position on occasion....they may not see the "whole" play and make a call....but for the most part they do a pretty good job at a really tough job....if you haven't ever put a striped shirt on, it's easy to sit on your sofa and launch hand grenades about how "bad" these guys are....there are a ton of perfect "sofa referees" who never miss a call
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m now doing a very loud Haka, dancing rhythmically while chanting menacingly & staring you down. It would be far more impressive if I had teammates doing it as well, but I’m just over here doing my best.
it seems I’ve frightened my dogs. :(
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
didn't ask if it bothers you....asked if that went on all game, if you thought that would be a good thing....."for the game".....so to speak
and the follow up would be....if that was happening after every play from both sides...what do you think would end up happening...?
you can't have your cake and eat it too and say "well I only want you to call it here....but not here"....or only when "I too think it is appropriate".....the guys that have to enforce this can't think like that....they have to be as consistent as they can be from the opening kick to the final play....
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You actually just unintentionally made a great case for not calling it.
Because a loosely defined rule that’s a judgement call by whatever individual ref is interpreting it that can have a huge impact on the game is a truly terrible rule & threatens the integrity of the sport.
better to allow everything than have some oddball subjective rule “emphasized”.
If they wanted to make a specific set of clearly defined gestures, I’m all for it. Throat slash gesture? Great! But just “whatever that guy thinks is a taunt at any given moment”? Hard pass.
bolded.....so if after every play we have stuff like Marsh did....you are ok with that.?......its a free for all....and refs should just look the other way.....and then deal with all the stuff when it escalates.....got it....
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how about we take a different approach....instead of questioning the refs about their "judgement" on what is taunting and what isn't....how about the players adjust....and I don't know.....maybe not taunt....?....
"hey the guy just gave gave a six shooter signal....but last week they told us no "throat slashes" but they didn't say anything about six shooters".....better not throw the flag until six shooters are covered this week in our zoom meeting...."hey, he just looked at that guy and did a "smacking that ###" gesture...."did we talk about that one"....dang it...?...."was the other guy asking for his ### to be smacked"...."does that matter....?....maybe....maybe I better not throw it till next week"...
"hey the guy just gave gave a six shooter signal....but last week they told us no "throat slashes" but they didn't say anything about six shooters".....better not throw the flag until six shooters are covered this week in our zoom meeting...."hey, he just looked at that guy and did a "smacking that ###" gesture...."did we talk about that one"....dang it...?...."was the other guy asking for his ### to be smacked"...."does that matter....?....maybe....maybe I better not throw it till next week"...
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
No - in that case i agree with the call. This topic was intended as more of a general convo about the rule.
But that said, if it means allowing what Marsh did, then sure - because I've seen a dozen examples of things that shouldn’t have been called having huge impact on the game.
So if 1 correct judgement results in a dozen incorrect judgements, maybe don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
amnesiac
beer is good
Nope, I'd coach my guys to mug any WR that is open past 15 yards. it would ruin the long passing game entirely.
similar to the smart teams in college football.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
So be it. Still better than having a bad DPI call put the ball at the stripe for a gimmie TD.amnesiac said:
Your example of a cheap shot is no worse than a team throwing a low % deep bomb hoping for a DPI that advances theM 50+ yards to 1st & goal at the 1.
If the call is bad, it’s game-changing.
Why doesn’t OPI put the offense back to their own 1?
amnesiac
beer is good
because the NFL wants more offense. that's been the emphasis over the last 10 years or so.
So this player was penalized for looking at the other teams bench and making a gesture or comment of some kind while in the field of play.
If he had run to his sideline and done the same thing would it have been a penalty?
And on a side note,did the ref get time in the penalty box for his hip check on said player?
If he had run to his sideline and done the same thing would it have been a penalty?
And on a side note,did the ref get time in the penalty box for his hip check on said player?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
amnesiac
beer is good
massraider
Footballguy
Get off my lawnHot Sauce Guy said:
Well, they obviously have to further justify this decision.
NFL always likes to double down on these things whenever they possibly can. My favorite was the Seattle TD catch in the game vs GB with the replacement refs. They stood behind that one too.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
every damn endzone celebration should be flagged. bowling pins falling down, people sleeping on the footballs, popcorn from an agent being used as a prop, to Moss' butt wipe to powwows.any and all of therse senseless, classless , unsportsmanlike shenanigans need to stop. just do the gronk slam the football down and walk off. people been doing that for 100 years. personally I like Barry, just give the ball back to the ref and run off. same with marshall faulk. the show offy dbags like primetime should've been fined and suspended back in the day. I see kids at 10 yr olds at football games emulating these schmucks, hooting and hollering in the endzone. and they always get penalized. the nfl should never have allowed these celebrations.I HATE , loathe the pre-planned gig where players work on it for a week , choreographing, practicing shenanigans. it's like watching saturday night live, it's not funny, it's painful to watch, cringeworthy TV. just.stop.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Am I the only one that thinks there's a happy medium? Throwing a ball in a guy's face after a first down? Taunting. Spinning the ball afterwards when nobody is around? Not taunting. Going out of your way to menace, restrain, or otherwise mollycoddle another player? Taunting or unsportsmanlike. Jumping up and down and dancing after a touchdown? Fine.
I think there's a happy medium here and I think we know it when we see it.
I think there's a happy medium here and I think we know it when we see it.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Oh joy. 
”ROGER GOODELLCOM, NFL
ESPN's Kevin Seifert reports there is "wide agreement among NFL decision-makers that their 2021 standard for taunting penalties should largely remain in place moving forward."
NFL executive vice president of football operations Troy Vincent confirmed this week that the league would continue its crackdown on taunting -- a universally reviled policy among fans that is generally supported by coaches and NFL decision makers. Refs called 61 taunting penalties during the 2021 regular season, the most in at least the past 20 years. The league seems most concerned with players standing over opponents after a play and approaching the opposing sideline in a threatening manner. NFL games will continue to be affected by post-play taunting in 2022 and beyond.”
It’s only gonna get worse. :(
”ROGER GOODELLCOM, NFL
ESPN's Kevin Seifert reports there is "wide agreement among NFL decision-makers that their 2021 standard for taunting penalties should largely remain in place moving forward."
NFL executive vice president of football operations Troy Vincent confirmed this week that the league would continue its crackdown on taunting -- a universally reviled policy among fans that is generally supported by coaches and NFL decision makers. Refs called 61 taunting penalties during the 2021 regular season, the most in at least the past 20 years. The league seems most concerned with players standing over opponents after a play and approaching the opposing sideline in a threatening manner. NFL games will continue to be affected by post-play taunting in 2022 and beyond.”
It’s only gonna get worse. :(
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