Tennis for kids- advice please **UPDATE- more of a running diary- some tourneys, and we have a coach! (1 Viewer)

[El Floppo]

any of you guys Tennis people, or have Tennis kids?

just turned 9yo floppinha has taken a class (group lesson) the last year or two which never really was enough to push things forward that much in terms of competition- but a good primer for developing the skills. she also likes the format and coaches and genuinely enjoys going (it's been 1x week) and has done a week long summer day camp with them as well. unfortunately, living in NYC there aren't many courts for play outside that don't require a long subway trip.

this summer, we were Covid-ing in MD and our house was a very short walk to a court- we got to play quite a bit. both of my kids are good students of whatever they do, because they listen to the their teachers and do their best to try to apply what the teachers are saying. doesn't make them top athletes or whatever, but helps. as it turns out, the girl also appears to have some genuine ability (helped by the class teaching her the fundamentals of technique); people would regular stop and watch, and then comment to me how good she was- especially for her age; this included during a couple lessons she took at a tennis center nearby. 

my wife thinks the only thing for getting her better is to play competitive matches. the place she was taking classes says this is an option, but recommends continuing classes (of course) and starting in a couple years. It all gets really expensive really fast, but I want to be able to support her ability and interest as best I can... in the right way. I have no tennis background, so no idea how to approach this... which is why I'm asking here.

Do you guys have any recommendations? 

Should she be getting into competitive match play already? Just take lessons? fwiw, some middle schools here have tennis teams, but we'd have to focus on applying to those if we're serious about that... and she's only in 4th grade. 

 

[gianmarco]

any of you guys Tennis people, or have Tennis kids?

just turned 9yo floppinha has taken a class (group lesson) the last year or two which never really was enough to push things forward that much in terms of competition- but a good primer for developing the skills. she also likes the format and coaches and genuinely enjoys going (it's been 1x week) and has done a week long summer day camp with them as well. unfortunately, living in NYC there aren't many courts for play outside that don't require a long subway trip.

this summer, we were Covid-ing in MD and our house was a very short walk to a court- we got to play quite a bit. both of my kids are good students of whatever they do, because they listen to the their teachers and do their best to try to apply what the teachers are saying. doesn't make them top athletes or whatever, but helps. as it turns out, the girl also appears to have some genuine ability (helped by the class teaching her the fundamentals of technique); people would regular stop and watch, and then comment to me how good she was- especially for her age; this included during a couple lessons she took at a tennis center nearby. 

my wife thinks the only thing for getting her better is to play competitive matches. the place she was taking classes says this is an option, but recommends continuing classes (of course) and starting in a couple years. It all gets really expensive really fast, but I want to be able to support her ability and interest as best I can... in the right way. I have no tennis background, so no idea how to approach this... which is why I'm asking here.

Do you guys have any recommendations? 

Should she be getting into competitive match play already? Just take lessons? fwiw, some middle schools here have tennis teams, but we'd have to focus on applying to those if we're serious about that... and she's only in 4th grade. 

Grew up as a tennis player.

I would say she definitely needs continued lessons.  The "competitive play" is plus or minus but will be pointless without continued instruction.  That teaching can be done privately or in a group setting as I don't think there's much different between the two early on. 

The best thing for her is, in addition to getting lessons, finding a few regular hitting partners that are at or slightly above her level.  She can play matches with them just to get a feel.  That's part of the beauty of tennis is not needing a lot of other people around to play.

 

[kevzilla]

I think Venus and Serena started in the USTA program at 11 and 9, though by 13 and 11 their father had taken them back, asserting he could do a better job. He wasn't wrong, though he was a jackhole about it.

All I would add is see if you can find a wall she can hit against when she can't play. Nothing will improve her eye faster, even if she basically plays patty-cake with the wall.

 

[gianmarco]

I think Venus and Serena started in the USTA program at 11 and 9, though by 13 and 11 their father had taken them back, asserting he could do a better job. He wasn't wrong, though he was a jackhole about it.

All I would add is see if you can find a wall she can hit against when she can't play. Nothing will improve her eye faster, even if she basically plays patty-cake with the wall.

My $.02 is that a wall isn't great at developing skills. It's impossible to judge depth and isn't good at replicating shots hit to you. It has its place and it's better than nothing if you don't have someone to play with, but as a regular developmental tool, I'd advise against it. A ball machine is much better, although obviously not nearly as available.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I would just make sure she is having a good time.  It can be something to enjoy her whole life then.

 

[-fish-]

Former junior/NCAA player (though admittedly it was D3) here.
 

Depends what she likes and what she wants to do with it.  If she’s looking for a competitive sport that she can play in high school or college, she could start playing some tournaments.  Ongoing lessons are a must, but there isn’t a substitute for actual match play for learning concentration, focus and strategy.   She can spend every day hitting against a backboard (and she probably should) but it’s only going to get her so far.  

 

[El Floppo]

I would just make sure she is having a good time.  It can be something to enjoy her whole life then.

She's a pretty happy kid and seems to enjoy it.

But she's only done it as a class, so no idea how she'd react to actual competition. I asked her yesterday how she'd feel if she played a game and got crushed..."disappointed". She likes to do well by objective standards, but lacks the experience to even understand how to rely on subjective, inwardly looking criteria.

 

[El Floppo]

My $.02 is that a wall isn't great at developing skills. It's impossible to judge depth and isn't good at replicating shots hit to you. It has its place and it's better than nothing if you don't have someone to play with, but as a regular developmental tool, I'd advise against it. A ball machine is much better, although obviously not nearly as available.

Ball machine. Right.

We have an open play yard walking distance. They have 3 courts painted on and set up nets in a typical summer. Surrounded by painted on track and basketball hoops, so not ideal. but we've played there even without nets and also been using the wall they have there for hitting together. It has its limitations- I think mostly in terms of seeing the ball long enough to set up her shot technically correct. 

But I've only learned by watching her lessons, so ultimately I'm just a warm body to hit with and get reps, more than a source of knowledge to learn from and improve.

 

[El Floppo]

Former junior/NCAA player (though admittedly it was D3) here.
 

Depends what she likes and what she wants to do with it.  If she’s looking for a competitive sport that she can play in high school or college, she could start playing some tournaments.  Ongoing lessons are a must, but there isn’t a substitute for actual match play for learning concentration, focus and strategy.   She can spend every day hitting against a backboard (and she probably should) but it’s only going to get her so far.  

She's 9 and has no idea what she wants to do with the sport. 

I'd like her to do something competitively- good for the mind, body and soul- and she's shown a likimg for and capacity to play tennis...so might as well be this. Wife would like it to help her have advantage for HS and college applications, which also sounds good to me- but a number of steps past where we are now.

It's those steps I'm trying to figure out.

Unfortunately, we don't have any friends or kids that play for to hook up with. And courts are scarce here in the city, let alone transporting her around without a car.

 

[Tool]

I play a lot of tennis, recreationally but at a pretty high level, but I'm not sure the answer to your question. You may want to try to find parents of other kids to ask for advice. I think a mix of some lessons, and playing with other kids but they should help you find the right balance.

 

[El Floppo]

I play a lot of tennis, recreationally but at a pretty high level, but I'm not sure the answer to your question. You may want to try to find parents of other kids to ask for advice. I think a mix of some lessons, and playing with other kids but they should help you find the right balance.

Thus, this thread.

 

[-fish-]

The thing with tennis is that lessons and repetition will let you develop technique, so you can go hit with people and play for fun.  The competitive side of tennis requires both technique and concentration, which you can really only develop by playing in matches.  So again, it’s what she wants to do with it.  If it’s for fun and exercise, matches aren’t necessary.  If it’s to get good at the sport, they are.

 

[gianmarco]

The thing with tennis is that lessons and repetition will let you develop technique, so you can go hit with people and play for fun.  The competitive side of tennis requires both technique and concentration, which you can really only develop by playing in matches.  So again, it’s what she wants to do with it.  If it’s for fun and exercise, matches aren’t necessary.  If it’s to get good at the sport, they are.

Yep. There's really no substitute with finding a hitting partner and regularly playing. It's a regular thing to meet up, hit for 10-15 minutes, and then you play. Hitting without playing is rare, except for lessons. You learn so much from that and learn where you need work. 

 

[El Floppo]

The thing with tennis is that lessons and repetition will let you develop technique, so you can go hit with people and play for fun.  The competitive side of tennis requires both technique and concentration, which you can really only develop by playing in matches.  So again, it’s what she wants to do with it.  If it’s for fun and exercise, matches aren’t necessary.  If it’s to get good at the sport, they are.

Thanks gb. 

Id like her to try to play competitively to see if she likes it and before it turns into only playing for fun.

What are steps to do that?

 

[popeye]

NJTL may be an option.  I recall attending one summer.  Had fun.  Still can't serve worth a darn, but that's on me.

https://www.ustafoundation.com/what_is_an_njtl/

 

[Tool]

Thus, this thread.

I meant in your town. 

 

[El Floppo]

She's 9 and has no idea what she wants to do with the sport. 

I'd like her to do something competitively- good for the mind, body and soul- and she's shown a likimg for and capacity to play tennis...so might as well be this. Wife would like it to help her have advantage for HS and college applications, which also sounds good to me- but a number of steps past where we are now.

It's those steps I'm trying to figure out.

Unfortunately, we don't have any friends or kids that play for us to hook up with. And courts are scarce here in the city, let alone transporting her around without a car.

I meant in your town. 

But yeah...that's the eventual plan. 

 

[Thorpe]

My two cents, if you she wants to do it, and you want to do it with her, then do it.  Don't do it because it is going to make you rich or because it will pay for college.  That will put too much pressure on it. I would never mention the possibilty of a college scholarship until a college offers one, or the high school coach mentions it as a possibility.

Even if your daughter has the talent to play in college, there is a lot of luck and politics that factor in to getting a scholarship.

 

[fred_1_15301]

I used to play tennis competitively in high school and college but have nothing to offer so look forward to hearing how it goes.  I would love to get my kids into tennis.  I recently started my 6 year old boy in Wii tennis and he seems to be rocking it.    

 

[Hov34]

Started my daughter playing (semi-seriously) her freshman year because she burnt out on soccer and it became too physical (girls in soccer are mean - my oldest quit after her 2nd concussion).

She took a couple clinics at the rec center, but mostly I hit with her and fed her balls.  (get a ball hopper with about 40 practice balls)  We would play some, but mostly just hitting.  She really needs to hit 3 to 4 times a week to get better.  And a wall won't do it.  Also got some small cones for her to hit towards (not aim).  That helped her think about where she wanted to hit - not just get it back. 

We do have a ball machine (bought it for me) but didn't use it near enough as we should.  Me feeding was the best option - better pauses for instruction. 

By her senior year (last school year) she was the number 1 seed on her team.  She got to play 1 match, then Covid happened.

 

[El Floppo]

My two cents, if you she wants to do it, and you want to do it with her, then do it.  Don't do it because it is going to make you rich or because it will pay for college.  That will put too much pressure on it. I would never mention the possibilty of a college scholarship until a college offers one, or the high school coach mentions it as a possibility.

Even if your daughter has the talent to play in college, there is a lot of luck and politics that factor in to getting a scholarship.

College is a long ways away.

As noted, for me this is about getting her involved in competitive sports first (not just classes), so she can experience that. As a former athlete (d1 top 10 soccer), I have full belief that competitive sports provide a lot of personal growth that you can't get elsewhere.

If she likes it or is good enough to progress is way down the line.

That said, I've heard from a bunch of different people in and around college sports that college women's tennis is a somewhat "easier" inroad for acceptance/scholarship than other women's sports. But again...she's 9 and hasn't played a single match. I think she's good and has potential to be good in that realm, but the end game isn't a thought at this point.

 

[El Floppo]

Started my daughter playing (semi-seriously) her freshman year because she burnt out on soccer and it became too physical (girls in soccer are mean - my oldest quit after her 2nd concussion).

She took a couple clinics at the rec center, but mostly I hit with her and fed her balls.  (get a ball hopper with about 40 practice balls)  We would play some, but mostly just hitting.  She really needs to hit 3 to 4 times a week to get better.  And a wall won't do it.  Also got some small cones for her to hit towards (not aim).  That helped her think about where she wanted to hit - not just get it back. 

We do have a ball machine (bought it for me) but didn't use it near enough as we should.  Me feeding was the best option - better pauses for instruction. 

By her senior year (last school year) she was the number 1 seed on her team.  She got to play 1 match, then Covid happened.

Good info- thanks!

Did you play? I'm hitting with her, but it seems like such a technical sport that I'm not helping teach her anything without a background...and worry that she'll develop bad habits with her technique.

Also have the problem of living in NYC, where outdoor courts are scarce, and indoor courts are expensive.

 

[Hov34]

Good info- thanks!

Did you play? I'm hitting with her, but it seems like such a technical sport that I'm not helping teach her anything without a background...and worry that she'll develop bad habits with her technique.

Also have the problem of living in NYC, where outdoor courts are scarce, and indoor courts are expensive.

Yes, I've played since I was in my mid 20s, but you don't need a ton of skill to feed.  Just stand off center about 5 to 7 feet from the net and hit her balls  to either her forehand or backhand and have her hit cross-court or down the line.  (watching youtube will help you teach her - might even help your game).

Court scarcity is a bummer, they started locking some around us up at the beginning of covid and the ones that were open were flooded with people just wanting to get outside with their $20 walmart rackets.  (Tennis snob)

Unfortunately there is nothing better than actually hitting on a real court.

 

[BoltBacker]

I'm hitting with her, but it seems like such a technical sport that I'm not helping teach her anything without a background...and worry that she'll develop bad habits with her technique.

One way you can really help her to improve even if you are just a beginner yourself is just return serves. Having a good serve is such a huge part of the game. If she has that skill alone going into Jr-High or high-school she can probably at least play doubles on a school team. There are tons of great instructional videos on Youtube and if she really wants to improve you can use a cell phone on a tripod to record her swing and play her serve back in slow motion to compare with the Youtube serves that she's trying to emulate. At one time only high priced phones could do that but it's pretty common place now on much cheaper phones. 

I would also echo some of the earlier comments that didn't think time with a practice wall is all that helpful for a beginner. It has it's place for an intermediate/advanced player but a practice wall for someone just starting out can really instill some bad habits that need to be un-learned later. To start she should focus on moving and footwork before she even takes her swing so when you hit against a practice wall you have half as much time to react to the ball. This leads to lunging and hurrying your shot and some poor swing mechanics. And then a beginner doesn't have much feedback in terms of how well they actually hit the ball because she can't see where it lands.... so she won't even really know if she is hitting good shots. 

If she expresses a keen interest to improve and you don't feel like you can help her with her ground-strokes these aren't very expensive and are tools that might help a beginner more than practicing against a wall imo....

https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Tutor-Tennis-Twist-Battery/dp/B0851SL4SH/ref=sr_1_97?dchild=1&keywords=tennis&qid=1599366814&sr=8-97

https://www.amazon.com/Hit-Zone-Training-Variable-Control/dp/B00A71U372/ref=psdc_3420041_t2_B0851SL4SH

.... I've used something similar(but much more expensive) to the first product link. I really like the fact that it's relatively small and battery operated so you don't need cords/outlets/etc. I've never seen anyone actually use that second product IRL and it does have a cord but I think that would be good for a beginner because the player has to impart all the power on the ball. Seems like it would be a very good lesson in how important it is to hit a tennis ball with your entire body instead of just swinging with your arm which can be a stumbling point for a lot of folks new to tennis. 

Of course hitting with peers her own age is ideal but I'm just not sure how feasible that is for a lot of people right now. Just dialing in some of the basics will help her if she does decide to join a school team. I've never lived in a metro area as big as NYC but there are apps that might be helpful in finding partner(s) around her age and or skill level. Never used this one but it's an example....

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tbuddy.mobile&hl=en

 

[BoltBacker]

Court scarcity is a bummer, they started locking some around us up at the beginning of covid and the ones that were open were flooded with people just wanting to get outside with their $20 walmart rackets.  (Tennis snob)

I'm just glad to see people playing. Sometimes I think Tennis is becoming such a niche sport it will be relegated to country club memberships so I'm all for an army of $20 walmart rackets on public courts.

I'm more of a tennis snob in other ways. When I see people wearing running shoes on the court(especially older/heavier folks) I kind of roll my eyes. I'd much rather see someone spend $20 on a modern cheap racket and $80 on a pair of shoes that actually have some lateral stability and support if they only have $100 to spend. In fact with a little bit of lead tape and a $30-50 racket from amazon I think most people would do fine. Especially if they spent ~$10 to get the racket strung correctly for their swing. To be fair I have no idea what they are selling at Walmart so they may be much worse than the cheap rackets on amazon.

 

[That one guy]

Joining the USTA is probably best bet in terms of opening the door to competition and seeing where she goes with it.  She might surprise and take the game to heart and enjoy the competition.  She might simply like the social aspect of a team/league setting with just enough love for the sport to keep wanting to play and practice without full on drive to become the best.  Or she’ll find it’s not for her.

The USTA will provide for the more coaching angle, too.  Many many resources there.

I played all the way through college (D2) and then some qualifying type tourneys after.  I miss it immensely 

 

[El Floppo]

Joining the USTA is probably best bet in terms of opening the door to competition and seeing where she goes with it.  She might surprise and take the game to heart and enjoy the competition.  She might simply like the social aspect of a team/league setting with just enough love for the sport to keep wanting to play and practice without full on drive to become the best.  Or she’ll find it’s not for her.

The USTA will provide for the more coaching angle, too.  Many many resources there.

I played all the way through college (D2) and then some qualifying type tourneys after.  I miss it immensely 

Thanks! Ironically, my wife had signed her up with USTA (through the organization where she was taking classes as her team) at the end of February, with the goal of getting games. Obviously that didn't happen.

 

[El Floppo]

One way you can really help her to improve even if you are just a beginner yourself is just return serves. Having a good serve is such a huge part of the game. If she has that skill alone going into Jr-High or high-school she can probably at least play doubles on a school team. There are tons of great instructional videos on Youtube and if she really wants to improve you can use a cell phone on a tripod to record her swing and play her serve back in slow motion to compare with the Youtube serves that she's trying to emulate. At one time only high priced phones could do that but it's pretty common place now on much cheaper phones. 

I would also echo some of the earlier comments that didn't think time with a practice wall is all that helpful for a beginner. It has it's place for an intermediate/advanced player but a practice wall for someone just starting out can really instill some bad habits that need to be un-learned later. To start she should focus on moving and footwork before she even takes her swing so when you hit against a practice wall you have half as much time to react to the ball. This leads to lunging and hurrying your shot and some poor swing mechanics. And then a beginner doesn't have much feedback in terms of how well they actually hit the ball because she can't see where it lands.... so she won't even really know if she is hitting good shots. 

If she expresses a keen interest to improve and you don't feel like you can help her with her ground-strokes these aren't very expensive and are tools that might help a beginner more than practicing against a wall imo....

https://www.amazon.com/Sports-Tutor-Tennis-Twist-Battery/dp/B0851SL4SH/ref=sr_1_97?dchild=1&keywords=tennis&qid=1599366814&sr=8-97

https://www.amazon.com/Hit-Zone-Training-Variable-Control/dp/B00A71U372/ref=psdc_3420041_t2_B0851SL4SH

.... I've used something similar(but much more expensive) to the first product link. I really like the fact that it's relatively small and battery operated so you don't need cords/outlets/etc. I've never seen anyone actually use that second product IRL and it does have a cord but I think that would be good for a beginner because the player has to impart all the power on the ball. Seems like it would be a very good lesson in how important it is to hit a tennis ball with your entire body instead of just swinging with your arm which can be a stumbling point for a lot of folks new to tennis. 

Of course hitting with peers her own age is ideal but I'm just not sure how feasible that is for a lot of people right now. Just dialing in some of the basics will help her if she does decide to join a school team. I've never lived in a metro area as big as NYC but there are apps that might be helpful in finding partner(s) around her age and or skill level. Never used this one but it's an example....

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tbuddy.mobile&hl=en

Thank you SO much for your reply. A ton of really useful info there!

For a little more background, she has taken classes for a couple years with this outfit. I appreciate how they build skills up over time and really focus on their development. Each class (usually 4 kids to 1 teacher) builds on those skills and finishes with some kind of competitive aspect like king/queen of the court. Floppinha was usually with slightly older kids and usually one of the better players, but still in the advanced beginner world. 

Funny-we went out yesterday to hit, and some company had out up promotional nets for the day (we'd been hitting there on painted on courts without nets) which was great. I had her serving at the end of hitting- definite slog for her as she's not done much of it, but I could see the improvement in tossing and getting contact as she got reps. Based on your feedback I will absolutely include this every time we play.

Because she's only 9 and this is NYC, she doesn't go anywhere without an adult taking her. So I'm there to hit with her, at least until work goes back into an office.

I'm an athlete, but a hacker who never took lessons-  but I learned a ton about technique watching her classes the last two years, so I'm able to hit well enough to alternate fore/backhand for her and not hit it too hard. That said, my knowledge of technique is at her level, so I'm unable to really advise or improve her game.

I noticed the reaction time thing about hitting on a wall last time we went, and decided she'd just hit with me against the wall, giving her more/normal time to react to it.

Love the tripod filming idea...will jump on that.

Classes/lessons start soon here for the fall- about 2k for 18 sessions. Been a rough year for me financially (laid off in April), so that represents a big problem, even though I really want her to do this. Will figure something out this week, hopefully.

 

[kevzilla]

Buncha anti-wall pansies in here  <_<

 

[jvdesigns2002]

When I was in college I used to give tennis group lessons to beginning and intermediate level kids.  I couldn't teach above intermediate as I was rated a 4.5 USTA player at the time and to teach advanced classes--you generally need to be a 5.5 or open level player.  My advice is this--tennis is a sport that requires the repetition of good techniques and form to get really good at it.   Establishing proper technique to a level where it becomes second nature is what separates the really great players from your normal recreational players.  One thing that I encouraged my students to do back in the day was to find hitting partners from the class to stay after class and to rally or hit around for 30 minutes to an hour.   I'd also encourage the students to try to find ways to get on the court once or twice during the weeks for 30 minutes to an hour in between classes to get more reps in.   If there is a difficulty in finding hitting partners or courts during the week--I'd very much recommend that some time be spent working on footwork drills and technique.  Footwork and getting yourself in proper position is foundational in becoming a good tennis player.  Hitting against a wall might not be ideal--but it can be useful for practicing footwork and technique (keeping your head down as you hit your backhands..etc).     In any case---I think tennis is a great sport for anybody to pick up as it can be enjoyed and played to a very advanced age.   

 

[El Floppo]

When I was in college I used to give tennis group lessons to beginning and intermediate level kids.  I couldn't teach above intermediate as I was rated a 4.5 USTA player at the time and to teach advanced classes--you generally need to be a 5.5 or open level player.  My advice is this--tennis is a sport that requires the repetition of good techniques and form to get really good at it.   Establishing proper technique to a level where it becomes second nature is what separates the really great players from your normal recreational players.  One thing that I encouraged my students to do back in the day was to find hitting partners from the class to stay after class and to rally or hit around for 30 minutes to an hour.   I'd also encourage the students to try to find ways to get on the court once or twice during the weeks for 30 minutes to an hour in between classes to get more reps in.   If there is a difficulty in finding hitting partners or courts during the week--I'd very much recommend that some time be spent working on footwork drills and technique.  Footwork and getting yourself in proper position is foundational in becoming a good tennis player.  Hitting against a wall might not be ideal--but it can be useful for practicing footwork and technique (keeping your head down as you hit your backhands..etc).     In any case---I think tennis is a great sport for anybody to pick up as it can be enjoyed and played to a very advanced age.   

Thanks!

I've been thinking about footwork too... definitely something I know nothing about other than by instinct- but not something I can teach her.

Are there any good drills or places to look you'd recommend for that?

 

[That one guy]

Tons of stuff on YouTube for drills on footwork.  But for outright conditioning for in match stamina...suicides FTW!  Learn to love them!

 

[El Floppo]

Tons of stuff on YouTube for drills on footwork.  But for outright conditioning for in match stamina...suicides FTW!  Learn to love them!

Her fitness sucks.

Gets tired in the legs after hitting with me for 30 minutes. She'd definitely do suicides for a coach. I think if I start implementing them, that'll probably make her not want to go play with me.

 

[That one guy]

Oh yeah, don’t push them until she’s in it for competition...they’re the suxor for sure, but best nonetheless.  Sprinting is key in tennis, I found a way to improve quickness and overall stamina was to go for shortish runs where you do 3 or 4 minutes at pace and then 30 seconds to 1 minute at about 80-90% sprint.  Get about a good 20-30 minutes in total to start.

She's 9, so a foundation is all that needs to be worked on now 

 

[jon_mx]

Advice...watch where you hit the ball.  /djokovic

 

[El Floppo]

Advice...watch where you hit the ball.  /djokovic

Lol...just posted about that in the only tennis thread I could find.

We were watching live for a bit. Crazy result. If it hadn't hit her throat, the match would be ongoing imo.

 

[jon_mx]

Lol...just posted about that in the only tennis thread I could find.

We were watching live for a bit. Crazy result. If it hadn't hit her throat, the match would be ongoing imo.

It was a tough break.  I would feel bad for Djokovic because it was obviously not intentional and it was questionable if it was in anger.  But Djokovic has a recent history a throwing rackets and whacking the ball in anger, so it was a learning moment. 

 

[El Floppo]

It was a tough break.  I would feel bad for Djokovic because it was obviously not intentional and it was questionable if it was in anger.  But Djokovic has a recent history a throwing rackets and whacking the ball in anger, so it was a learning moment. 

Yeah...they showed him whacking a ball at the side wall in anger earlier in the match- don't know if he was warned about that or not. Poor choice by him whacking it near a judge, whether it hit her or not. But the throat punch certainly didn't help.

 

[El Floppo]

Thanks everybody... I've been trying to wrap in some of the advice here when she and I go hit. My schedule is going to change a bit, so I'll be less available to hit with her unfortunately.

But I'm standing outside her first trial group lesson at a new spot waiting for her and coach. Fingers crossed she's up to it, and fingers crossed I can scrape the tuition together.

 

[El Floppo]

Thanks everybody... I've been trying to wrap in some of the advice here when she and I go hit. My schedule is going to change a bit, so I'll be less available to hit with her unfortunately.

But I'm standing outside her first trial group lesson at a new spot waiting for her and coach. Fingers crossed she's up to it, and fingers crossed I can scrape the tuition together.

They moved her to the advanced group with slightly older kids (all boys 10&11...she's 9)...told me she's really good.

I got to go inside for a few minutes to check it out. 2 levels of indoor clay courts, she was upstairs under a bubble.

The program seems similar to what she was doing before- small group, skills based building up each session from individual to interactive/match-style play. Major difference is that she's on actual courts, rather than in school gyms with temp nets. And it's almost twice as much.

 

[El Floppo]

Went out to our neighborhood spot this morning that has basketball hoops, a painted track and 3 painted tennis courts. The courts haven't had nets since last summer, and even then their appearance was sporadic. So we play on the court without them.

But this morning, a guy showed up with nets out of the blue...it was great. I wish I was better, so I could help her more than act as a back stop...but I know that's better than nothing. (Eta- she want to learn how to slice the ball/back-spin...I can hit that shot, but have no idea how to explain it to her. She was hitting ball more as lobs with backspin eventually, rather than driving the ball with back spin...which was a good start I think)

Gorgeous fall day here in nyc, and the nets brought a bunch of people out and talking to eachother... like a pre-covid neighborhood again (lower east side). Even got to kick a soccer ball around afterwards- my sport. felt great to be out there with my daughter and taking it all in.

Class on Monday.

 

[El Floppo]

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd do it here so I have better record of it.

Both kids (9yo daughter and 13yo son) are trying out for a tennis program scholarship today at the US tennis center where they hold the US open.

They've only ever taken group tennis classes- never private coaching or even played a match. Son has some natural ability and is a great learner- but zero competitive bones in his body. At an older age, I have a feeling the competition level is going to be way above him.

Daughter has more of the eye of the tiger, and might already be as good or better than he is and is always matched up with older kids- usually boys- in her class. She and I hit on the weekends occasionally, and regularly get people stopping to comment on how good she is.

Very curious to see how she in particular stacks up. I've only seen the kids in their classes, so have no sense of what "good" kid tennis looks like. This could be all kids who play with coaches 5 days a week since they were 4 and play tournaments...or it could be kids without a lot of formal training...or kids like mine who have been exposed to the sport but never really "played". I have no idea. My only worry is that they could be overwhelmingly out of their league.

Bottom line- I'm hoping the tryout experience is positive for both for both of them, regardless of what happens.

___________ (posted after the tryout)

She flat out...tanked it. Like, she completely forgot how to hit a tennis ball. And she knew it- was in tears afterwards. Sadly, in reality she is as good as anybody we saw (although another 9yo girl in her group was a head taller and probably 50lbs heavier and could just crush the ball)...but not today. Frustrating to not show what she's capable of literally every time she steps on the court except for today.

Even still- in my mind, a really big learning experience for her that she hopefully learns and grows from. She has another tryout next month (John McEnroe youth program) and hopefully can apply fixing some of today's nerves at that point. And I'm really proud of her for trying something new and powering through to the end even when it was clear it wasn't her day.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Everyone has those days.  I remember a world championship where Scott Hamilton couldn't do anything right.  And I think he was the Olympic champion at the time.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd do it here so I have better record of it.

Both kids (9yo daughter and 13yo son) are trying out for a tennis program scholarship today at the US tennis center where they hold the US open.

They've only ever taken group tennis classes- never private coaching or even played a match. Son has some natural ability and is a great learner- but zero competitive bones in his body. At an older age, I have a feeling the competition level is going to be way above him.

Daughter has more of the eye of the tiger, and might already be as good or better than he is and is always matched up with older kids- usually boys- in her class. She and I hit on the weekends occasionally, and regularly get people stopping to comment on how good she is.

Very curious to see how she in particular stacks up. I've only seen the kids in their classes, so have no sense of what "good" kid tennis looks like. This could be all kids who play with coaches 5 days a week since they were 4 and play tournaments...or it could be kids without a lot of formal training...or kids like mine who have been exposed to the sport but never really "played". I have no idea. My only worry is that they could be overwhelmingly out of their league.

Bottom line- I'm hoping the tryout experience is positive for both for both of them, regardless of what happens.

___________ (posted after the tryout)

She flat out...tanked it. Like, she completely forgot how to hit a tennis ball. And she knew it- was in tears afterwards. Sadly, in reality she is as good as anybody we saw (although another 9yo girl in her group was a head taller and probably 50lbs heavier and could just crush the ball)...but not today. Frustrating to not show what she's capable of literally every time she steps on the court except for today.

Even still- in my mind, a really big learning experience for her that she hopefully learns and grows from. She has another tryout next month (John McEnroe youth program) and hopefully can apply fixing some of today's nerves at that point. And I'm really proud of her for trying something new and powering through to the end even when it was clear it wasn't her day.

Sorry that I missed this thread initially.  Kudos to your daughter for trying out and taking a risk.   While today probably felt rough, ultimately she will benefit from that adversity.   She’s lucky to have a parent to both push her and support her, in a really healthy way.

Btw - I’ve been playing a long long time, and had a similar experience today.   One of the worst matches of my life.   Couldn’t hit a shot in the first set.  My opponent (a good friend) said “dude, why were you just pushing it back at me the whole time.  Was this some sick gamesmanship?”  Me:  “no, I literally couldn’t hit a ball back today with any pace.”

One suggestion though:  at some point, she needs to play matches.   Hitting around with zero pressure is different than playing a match.  It’s easy to hit amazing shots when there is no downside to missing — whole different thing when the points count.

Tomorrow is another day!   She will be fine!

 

[El Floppo]

A year later, cool to look back at the great advice you guys gave here.

So in the last year since this thread...

Classes:

recently turned 10yo Floppinha continued weekly group classes at Tennis Innovators through the school year- cool outfit of ex college players who are very hands on with their technical teaching of kids in small groups and I've seen do a nice job building up skills. They have two main problems.

1: other kids aren't as good or apparently interested in the sport as floppinha.

2: they rent space in manhattan from schools (gyms), which isn't great to begin with- but during covid, they've lost all of those. Now they're set up in a store-front commercial space that, while a very clever use of the space in an urban "cool" way, absolutely sucks for tennis as it's too short (walls right at the baseline) and rife with columns. Decent to do drills- and they make good use of it for that, but terrible for any kind of rallying or match-play.

We also tried another, more expensive "better" spot that has their own courts under a bubble and is close to her school once a week (so 2 group classes a week). Pros- nice clay courts in a bubble, kids are a bit more competitive (she's playing with a 12 yo boy who is quite good). Cons- way more expensive, and coaches aren't hands-on.. mostly just set up drills and don't instruct much if anything. I've been unimpressed.

Tryouts:

She tried out for the NYC City parks Lacoste program at the US Open location at the beginning of the summer, as much to get a feel for how she stacked up to other girls her age. She measured up surprisingly well, although she didn't do anywhere near her best... but was asked to participate in the summer program, which unfortunately wasn't possible for us time-wise (wife had signed her up for this).

She also tried out for the John McEnroe School scholarship program a few weeks later- this is an ongoing, full year program that is pretty kick ### including fitness, private coaching and competitive play on forward including college recruiting. She once again didn't do her best (which was frustrating for her and me), but it wouldn't have mattered- the other girls were clearly a couple levels above her and she didn't make the cut. The coaches did make a point of saying how much they liked her attitude and expressed hope she'd participate in the program (no scholarship- even more expensive than the other spot). John Mc was there and actively walking around looking at kids, including floppinha- apparently this is the case all year.

Camp:

She did a too expensive camp with them last week, just to get her in there. It was great in terms of the facilities (dedicated tennis center on Randall's island) and getting to play with some kids who were obviously seasoned competitive players (kick ### group of 8yo boys). But once again, there was very little actual instruction happening, which considering the cost was hugely disappointing. At the end of it when I thanked the main coach at pick up and he said how much he loved Floppinha- as a kid and as a tennis player (made a point to say "I'm not just telling you this because you're her dad") and expressed hope that he could privately coach her. We're going to speak about it today.

Daddy-time

She and I have also been playing at least 1x week (and a lot more this summer since I bailed on an unhappy in-person consulting gig). I've made her approach her play with me as more match-style... keeping score, serving, etc. lots of tears there when she messed up, and lots of desire for do-overs, but that's changing. We play at local park that has tennis courts painted on to a multi-sport utility play yard (3x courts are inside a painted on track which is rimmed with bball hoops). The closest actual tennis courts are city run and packed from 7am until 7pm with long waits. Our local park has been nice, but increasingly busy this summer... and is pretty urban in terms of lots of cracks, and random folk wandering through or playing sports in and around the courts- but it's a nice, neighborhood vibe there. 

One bonus of the local courts is that some tennis coaches have started using them- and we hooked up with a young english guy that felt like a good match (some other guys there are a bit... loony) and is relatively inexpensive ($45/hour). She's had 2 or 3 lessons with him- still a feeling out period, and two of the lessons were with her older brother which felt like a waste. But I think this will be good (except he just broke his foot and is really gimpy).

Tournaments:

She played her first tournament a week ago in CT (land of the moneyed waspy tennis people)! Given the tears above, along with not really knowing how to serve (learned the basics at TI, but not much) which when playing with me was a lot of double faults... sometimes enough to double fault her entire service game away... I was concerned. We got there early and saw some other girls playing who were good. really good. Now I was more concerned. We talked about it just being for the experience, not about winning losing, and that she should just have fun and go ahead and try to play (not rinky dink her play just to get the ball in). She had three matches guaranteed and flat out blew me away with her play, serving and attitude. Fortunately none of the crazy good kids were in her group- phew! But they were still all kids with multiple tournaments and private coaaching under their belts. Took the first match, and eventual group winner (with scary tiger tennis mom) to a tie-break, but ended up dropping it in tie-break to the tie-break. Next two matches were also pretty competitive, but she dropped those too to finish the tourney 0-3. Didn't matter- she was so proud of playing well against these kids who were more seasoned and had an absolute blast... couldn't wait to do another tournament. I was insanely proud of her for all of that, while also realizing she was more than capable of having finished 3-0 instead of 0-3...something I chalked up to experience (she and I were learning how to keep score and basics of general gameplay during the tournament- asking lots of questions while playing). She was exhausted afterwards and fell asleep on the train home- fitness another aspect needing work.

She played her second tourney yesterday, closer on Roosevelt Island (short, straight shot on our local subway). 4 matches this time, and the kids looked better- all with that private coached swing, serve, movement and shot selection... except for one other girl who looked like more of a group-class player like floppinha (although a head taller than our tall girl). she dropped the first match 0-6 and could barely get a point in. the other girl was more consistent than overwhelming- just didn't miss but also hit some good quality cross court winners off of floppinha's soft serve. floppinha was in tears walking off the court. Ruh-roh. Told her I was happy she got to play against somebody like that and experience losing- that I was proud of her for staying in the game and trying her best, even in a losing match and reminded her the tournament was about learning and trying to have fun, not about winning/losing. 2nd match was against what looked like more her equal and they played like it. She lost in a tight one that could have gone either way and was feeling better. Next match was against some midget girl from CT who looked like she was straight out of a Greenwich tennis club welcome video- beautiful swing and serve and also very consistent (she had just lost to Floppinha's first opponent). This girl made short work of it, but Floppinha took 2 games. 4th match was a lefty girl who took a few games off the 1st opponent and had a really nice swing. but a little heftier, and was looking tired from the giddyup. Floppinha picked up on this from the girl's body language immediately and added a bounce to her own game even though she felt spent. Ended up winning 6-1 for her 1st competitive match win, playing her best tennis along the way! She even felt that if she had played the 1st girl later in the tournament, she would have been a lot more competitvef with her... so something else to learn. (we noticed that girl warming up for at least 1/2 hour before the tournament started).

Next steps:

So we're at a point where it's clear to me she needs to have private lessons AND keep playing competitively (as much as she wants to). I noticed some small stuff across her game relative to the better kids in the tournaments and at camp that needs a closer eye and wisdom to fix- subtle stuff in contact point on the ball for her strokes and serve, and working on movement and shot selection. 

We're trying to figure out the private lessons- whether this guy at the local courts is enough and knows how to best improve Floppinha or whether we figure out a way to pay for lessons at the John Mc place (also pretty difficult to get to for us without a car) of somewhere else. It's nice that the John Mc guy has seen her play and seemed genuinely interested in taking her on (even though he said it wasn't, could still be that he's just trying to find warm bodies to make money off of).  The local coach has a boy he's been coaching that's the same age and apparently pretty good and fairly close to us- would be great to get the two of them playing together with or without a coach.

Also trying to figure out continuing group classes. The place I like has a couple full courts, just much farther away from us on the Upper West Side and in Queens. And I'm pretty sure both are outdoor without bubbles in the winter, which means we'd need to adjust somewhere else anyways when the weather gets crappy.

tl;dr

Floppinha is now 10, just played and loved playing her first 2 tournaments (winning her first ever match yesterday) and is looking forward to playing more. We're trying to figure out best steps forward for coaching- private and/or group classes.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

Got my son into tennis about age 8-10. Started with lessons and playing with dad. Lessons led to inter squad competition. Eventually entered USTA Junior tournaments for competitive experience. You win some you lose some. I always say that the best experience is playing people who are better than you are. 
 

When my son was about 15 years old, he finally started beating his old man. It reminded me of when I was a kid, and I finally was able to beat my dad. It’s a wonderful thing. 
 

My son won the state singles title as a junior in high school. And then he won the state mixed doubles title as a senior. 
 

I am convinced that this helped him get accepted to a premier college. Never would have expected it. 
 

He doesn’t play anymore, as he was never really a star tennis player. But it definitely helped getting him on the path that he wanted. 
 

 

[El Floppo]

Got my son into tennis about age 8-10. Started with lessons and playing with dad. Lessons led to inter squad competition. Eventually entered USTA Junior tournaments for competitive experience. You win some you lose some. I always say that the best experience is playing people who are better than you are. 
 

When my son was about 15 years old, he finally started beating his old man. It reminded me of when I was a kid, and I finally was able to beat my dad. It’s a wonderful thing. 
 

My son won the state singles title as a junior in high school. And then he won the state mixed doubles title as a senior. 
 

I am convinced that this helped him get accepted to a premier college. Never would have expected it. 
 

He doesn’t play anymore, as he was never really a star tennis player. But it definitely helped getting him on the path that he wanted. 
 

Still in college or graduated? I assume he can still play for fun regardless. State titles.. pretty amazing!

Can you explain "inter squad competition"... Was he on a team as a kid, or was this within his lessons? 

Honestly the best part of the 2 competitions (usta) and camp was her getting to play with and against good kids. She's really liking the sport, but would also like some social component to it- always asking if she can play it with friends. None of her friends play, so this never works out. Ideally we'd meet somebody better who she likes and can hit with. I exchanged info with some of the parents of kids at the camp and tourneys that she liked, but none of them live within an hour of us, so unfortunately we have to keep looking. 

My wife is taking the long view of this helping her get into HS and college. I'm all for that, but as she's only 10 and just starting I'm looking more at the short view of keeping it fun and engaging while she learns and improves. 

 

[matuski]

Grew up as a tennis player.

I would say she definitely needs continued lessons.  The "competitive play" is plus or minus but will be pointless without continued instruction.  That teaching can be done privately or in a group setting as I don't think there's much different between the two early on. 

The best thing for her is, in addition to getting lessons, finding a few regular hitting partners that are at or slightly above her level.  She can play matches with them just to get a feel.  That's part of the beauty of tennis is not needing a lot of other people around to play.

This.

But tennis is unavoidably an expensive sport.

We joined a country club when we were kids because it actually made financial sense for my brother and I (both got college offers) to have a place to find regular hitting partners or matches in additon to the clinics.

 

[That one guy]

Wait, her tryouts were at the actual Flushing Meadows facility with Arthur Ashe stadium in view?!  I’d have been intimidated by such a setting and new playing environment as well!

Congrats to her for sticking with it, gaining experience, and being vulnerable enough to play tourneys.  I think most people who play tennis prefer the “everything on me” rather than team play aspect of the game, but first couple times actually doing it alone is rough

Service game is key, you can hide a lot of faults (pun!) with a solid serve, both first and second.  Consistency is key at this age, as they say in golf “just a simple, repeatable swing” is all that is needed.  Unsure of how the group coaches, but don’t be afraid to move out wide during setup, take advantage of the angle and lower net height in the middle, create better percentages for herself

 

[El Floppo]

This.

But tennis is unavoidably an expensive sport.

We joined a country club when we were kids because it actually made financial sense for my brother and I (both got college offers) to have a place to find regular hitting partners or matches in additon to the clinics.

Good advice- I'll look more into this.

Im pretty sure it's possible to get membership at the second place she's doing group classes. I'd be more interested if the classes were better, but also likely too far out of my price range (from what I remember). 

Place she had her tournament on Sunday is worth looking into more to join and for private lessons.

Wait, her tryouts were at the actual Flushing Meadows facility with Arthur Ashe stadium in view?!  I’d have been intimidated by such a setting and new playing environment as well!

Congrats to her for sticking with it, gaining experience, and being vulnerable enough to play tourneys.  I think most people who play tennis prefer the “everything on me” rather than team play aspect of the game, but first couple times actually doing it alone is rough

Service game is key, you can hide a lot of faults (pun!) with a solid serve, both first and second.  Consistency is key at this age, as they say in golf “just a simple, repeatable swing” is all that is needed.  Unsure of how the group coaches, but don’t be afraid to move out wide during setup, take advantage of the angle and lower net height in the middle, create better percentages for herself

Yeah! They were at the US Open spot with the big stadiums and all the smaller ones flanking. The tryouts were in the smaller ones, which were definitely a bit overwhelming for her.

Turns out the center has lessons and classes as well as the city parks program. The girl that took her 6-0 goes there along with her nationally ranked big sister, so seems worth looking into even if it's a bit of a hike for us.

Serving...yeah. they're still little girls (10u), so so far nobody we've seen has a big serve. But the good kids clearly have a 1st and 2nd serve, hit well and properly above them with arm fully extended. Floppinha has the motion down and gets pretty consistent after she's warmed up, but hits the ball lower and front of her patty-cake style. This is working, but eliminating the spin even though she's holding it continental and also taking away a lot power. The good kids tee up on it.

Can you explain the bolded?