Tennis for kids- advice please **UPDATE- more of a running diary- some tourneys, and we have a coach! (1 Viewer)

[Ministry of Pain]

Clinics Clinics Clinics with kids in his or her own age range, let that happen for many months where they can learn and grow with other kids their age and then they will either express a love for the sport or hate it and constantly say something like "do I have to go" and that's a pretty good indicator they might need a break for at least a couple weeks. 

The number of kids who really become phenoms is far and few between even with coaches as their dads. 

Best thing is to teach them a sport they can pick up again in their 30s and 40s when other sports become physically almost impossible for adult to play or partake in such as football. 

 

[gianmarco]

Can you explain the bolded?

The net is lowest in the middle of the court.  This is why you see a higher percentage of hitting cross court (instead of down the line) because you have higher percentage of getting it over the net.  It may seem trivial, but the lowered height makes hitting shots over the middle of the net a higher percentage play.

What he was saying was, instead of standing near the middle to serve, to instead move out wide and serve cross court.  This allows the serve to take advantage of the lower portion of the net (than if you tried to hit the same spot but standing closer to the middle) and makes it more difficult for people to return.  If they try to return down the line (opposite side from where she is starting her serve), they have to deal with that higher net, which is a mistake made often at that age/level.

 

[El Floppo]

Clinics Clinics Clinics with kids in his or her own age range, let that happen for many months where they can learn and grow with other kids their age and then they will either express a love for the sport or hate it and constantly say something like "do I have to go" and that's a pretty good indicator they might need a break for at least a couple weeks. 

The number of kids who really become phenoms is far and few between even with coaches as their dads. 

Best thing is to teach them a sport they can pick up again in their 30s and 40s when other sports become physically almost impossible for adult to play or partake in such as football. 

Thanks. 

She's past the clinics time. As I've mentioned a few times here, the group classes are kinda good, but she ready and wanting more. So we'll be doing private coaching along with a group class. Fwiw gb, tennis parents of the better kids I've talked to over the last couple weeks at these tournaments all advise against clinics at this point- too many kids, next to no personal instruction.

The net is lowest in the middle of the court.  This is why you see a higher percentage of hitting cross court (instead of down the line) because you have higher percentage of getting it over the net.  It may seem trivial, but the lowered height makes hitting shots over the middle of the net a higher percentage play.

What he was saying was, instead of standing near the middle to serve, to instead move out wide and serve cross court.  This allows the serve to take advantage of the lower portion of the net (than if you tried to hit the same spot but standing closer to the middle) and makes it more difficult for people to return.  If they try to return down the line (opposite side from where she is starting her serve), they have to deal with that higher net, which is a mistake made often at that age/level.

Thanks! That  makes a lot of sense- we'll try it out at her next lesson.

Just had a lesson with the local guy this morning. I talked to him about stuff I'd noticed (contact point, follow through) and he worked specifically towards those things with her. Very cool to see her implement these things almost immediately. I mentioned the serving as something for next time.

 

[El Floppo]

Oh! AmEx is doing some pop up courts on a pier in the Hudson next week to coincide with the US Open- just booked a bunch of time next week for her. More cool/fun, and available than anything else.

And also checked tickets for the GA (wander around open seating at the smaller courts) at the Open...$100 per. ####. I was hoping for a lot less than that. I'd like to take her, but 200 clams for both of us is better spent on lessons, imo...even though I think she'd learn a lot by seeing these people live.

Oh again...on one of the courts next to her at camp one day, there was a young woman (teens, young 20s?) practicing with a coach. She was a beast- drilling every shot on a dime exactly where the coach was telling her...over and over, ball smashing into the fence behind. Forehand, backhand, serves- all exploding off her racket on a dime across the court. ####! Is this a HS kid, college? The amount of tiers this kid was above anybody I'd seen was crazy...made me wonder how floppinha could ever get there if she was HS or college. I asked later- turned out it was this person.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Thanks. 

She's past the clinics time. As I've mentioned a few times here, the group classes are kinda good, but she ready and wanting more. So we'll be doing private coaching along with a group class. Fwiw gb, tennis parents of the better kids I've talked to over the last couple weeks at these tournaments all advise against clinics at this point- too many kids, next to no personal instruction.

Thanks! That  makes a lot of sense- we'll try it out at her next lesson.

Just had a lesson with the local guy this morning. I talked to him about stuff I'd noticed (contact point, follow through) and he worked specifically towards those things with her. Very cool to see her implement these things almost immediately. I mentioned the serving as something for next time.

Hey EF, thanks for the post back. I understand and I just want to share that I read the OP and it said 9 yrs old, maybe now 10 yrs old and I understand why folks say those things about clinics but it gets lonely at the top of the heap/pyramid/parade of other kids and I get that they want more. 

I'm just saying the youngster has got one on one with the coach who is likely at least 30-35 I'm guessing, you and mom, other adults...the only time they see another kid their age is when they are told to go out on the Court and squash them like a bug.

Next 

Youtube videos FYI...in between private lessons($80/hr my club) and you'll find they're a lot cheaper and can accomplish quite a lot. I really like Crunch Time with Pete out of ATlanta, GA and I know he's geared more for dudes like me but the lessons are very good and you can play them repeatedly to drill the techniques and points home.

Happy for you and your daughter 

 

[El Floppo]

Hey EF, thanks for the post back. I understand and I just want to share that I read the OP and it said 9 yrs old, maybe now 10 yrs old and I understand why folks say those things about clinics but it gets lonely at the top of the heap/pyramid/parade of other kids and I get that they want more. 

I'm just saying the youngster has got one on one with the coach who is likely at least 30-35 I'm guessing, you and mom, other adults...the only time they see another kid their age is when they are told to go out on the Court and squash them like a bug.

Next 

Youtube videos FYI...in between private lessons($80/hr my club) and you'll find they're a lot cheaper and can accomplish quite a lot. I really like Crunch Time with Pete out of ATlanta, GA and I know he's geared more for dudes like me but the lessons are very good and you can play them repeatedly to drill the techniques and points home.

Happy for you and your daughter 

Yeah- thanks. she definitely wants and needs to play with kids her age- ideally outside of tournaments- something I've talked about in here. We're working on it, but it's slim pickens in our hood.

I'll check out the videos, thanks. Hard part I've found with those is not getting feedback on the technique. I'm learning it's a really technical sport, and the differences between right and almost right are subtle but profound...and sadly I just don't have the background to help, even if I see something off. But they can't hurt- thanks.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I just read the Monday update you wrote, ask @gianmarco I'm a little slow to catch up with the herd at times. 

-If you cannot find another 10 year old to hit with her, how about going up in age to say 12-13?

-New York City? Johnny Mac and the whole Nine Yards, there has to be a great tennis center where kids of all ages are playing or maybe I'm naive because I live in TennisHeaven down here in Florida. How are there not more kids her age that are learning this sport at the same time? 

-The best tips I get are from other players. I was playing as a kid, gave it up at 15, took it back up at about 45 and the last 2-3 years I have basically just copied and absorbed everything I can from others. I STEAL   

You should plan an extended stay in Florida near some of the better Tennis Centers, some time in the future. 

-You mentioned fitness in one of the posts and I just want to key in on what I find to be true on the courts. The better the fitness level typically the better level the player. At some point in the 3.0/3.5 and 4.0/4.5 and that right there is 85% of Club Players, the fitness level is what separates many of them. Someone can play a strong 1st set and hit most shots but start sucking wind and fading in the 2nd and then 3rd assuming they drop the 2nd set. 

There are so many positives of your daughter and son playing tennis and we've focused mostly on her I assume because she is younger and more enthusiastic about Tennis. She likely will learn how to focus and that translates over to schoolwork, if she developed enough game to even make the tennis team in high school I think it would be a major positive on her road to college or life. 

 

[Tom Skerritt]

Still in college or graduated? I assume he can still play for fun regardless. State titles.. pretty amazing!

Can you explain "inter squad competition"... Was he on a team as a kid, or was this within his lessons? 

Honestly the best part of the 2 competitions (usta) and camp was her getting to play with and against good kids. She's really liking the sport, but would also like some social component to it- always asking if she can play it with friends. None of her friends play, so this never works out. Ideally we'd meet somebody better who she likes and can hit with. I exchanged info with some of the parents of kids at the camp and tourneys that she liked, but none of them live within an hour of us, so unfortunately we have to keep looking. 

My wife is taking the long view of this helping her get into HS and college. I'm all for that, but as she's only 10 and just starting I'm looking more at the short view of keeping it fun and engaging while she learns and improves. 

My son is still in college. I’m sure he could play if he wanted to, it was just never a priority for him. He was really good at it, but not great. He was also a big guy, so he was able to dominate physically over his smaller classmates. 
 

When we got him into lessons, it was a “tennis academy”, so the head coach had many students, and a few instructors. They would practice two or three times a week. They would compete in challenge matches within the group, and at other times would compete against other tennis programs. 
 

And then at some point, we were encouraged to register with USTA and compete in local tournaments. 
 

Important thing to remember is to keep it fun. We would see kids out there being super competitive, angry, and entitled. No way would I let my kid act that way. But to each their own. It was interesting to see some of these kids go on tilt when they would lose. Too much pressure if that is happening. On the flip side, some of these kids are phenomenal tennis players. Impressive to watch at times. 

 

[El Floppo]

My son is still in college. I’m sure he could play if he wanted to, it was just never a priority for him. He was really good at it, but not great. He was also a big guy, so he was able to dominate physically over his smaller classmates. 
 

When we got him into lessons, it was a “tennis academy”, so the head coach had many students, and a few instructors. They would practice two or three times a week. They would compete in challenge matches within the group, and at other times would compete against other tennis programs. 
 

And then at some point, we were encouraged to register with USTA and compete in local tournaments. 
 

Important thing to remember is to keep it fun. We would see kids out there being super competitive, angry, and entitled. No way would I let my kid act that way. But to each their own. It was interesting to see some of these kids go on tilt when they would lose. Too much pressure if that is happening. On the flip side, some of these kids are phenomenal tennis players. Impressive to watch at times. 

thanks! that all makes sense, in terms of the academy, inter-academy match play and move to USTA tournaments. We had her signed up with our outfit for the "academy" classes- I think they even had a team she was going to compete on (which would have been awesome)- but that's when Covid shut things down, so we basically jumped from group class to the tourneys. In retrospect, I'm sure that intermediate step would have been really useful for her.  I'm talking to that outfit today about how to move forward for her... I'll update later.

we've only seen two tournaments and one camp. the first tournament had one tiger tennis mom, but the daughter was ok, and one nice enough opponent who was calling floppinha's in balls out, and questioning her whenever she'd call one of that kid's balls out. we had no idea what the protocol was for that... I thought the kids just called stuff, and that was that- but of course there'll always be conflict.

the camp- I mentioned a group of 4 8yo boys who were really good and had been training at the John McEnroe center for a couple years. Looked like a couple of them had been watching some John Mc as well... just terrible behavior from the best kid- racket-slamming, whining and yelling if things didn't go his way, and loudly celebrating other people's unforced errors if he got the point. but yeah- the kid is still fun to watch as a player.

2nd tournament, there was a boy playing at the same time who screamed loudly after every won point (in a bubble- very distracting to kids playing in neighboring courts) along with his loudly yelling and clapping mom (Russian).

A gb whose kid is a top local player told me to be aware of the awful parents/kids that come to these things. It's going to be hard to hold back if anybody messes with Floppinha, in soem of the ways he's described.

 

[El Floppo]

Ok... update (for my own sake).

She played her 3rd tournament on Sep 11. It was rough. Only 3 other girls, all of whom were really good- including a little girl who had just moved from Ukraine (who won the tournament)- floppinha dropped all of her matches and was in tears afterwards. Some of this was a little bit of exhaustion coming two days off of her first new, more serious class- 2 hours instead of 1, and lots of running- she was toast afterwards and even the next day.

But once again, I could see the difference was purely technical- and talking to all their parents, these girls were all getting 2+ private coaching sessions a week plus classes and hitting with friends. Their swings and footwork were just cleaner and more consistent.

But even with the losses, after going down 0-3 to the Ukrainian girl, floppinha turned on the jets and played the best tennis I've ever seen from her; going for shots and taking the offensive. Absolutely dominated the kid- and I could see the fear in the girl's face as well her parents (who stopped chatting as soon as things were looking bad) to pull back 4-4. But she fizzled out- got tired- and quickly dropped the next two games with lots of tired ground strokes into the net. 

___________________

She's still doing the 2 hour class, which has nice uptick in intensity. We've had to reschedule it twice already... and the group on Fridays is older (13-16) and better- bringing Floppinha's game up by hitting harder and playing faster. Her normal group on Sundays are ok- 12-14yos, with one boy who is legit better than her, but only slightly. I'm happy with the class and the coach and it's up by my alma mater- longish trip, but nice courts in a nice park.

We also finally started real private lessons with the same outfit as her class (same one she's been playing with since the beginning). These things are so damned expensive- I had to negotiate the rate (something I hate to do) down to something closer to what we can(t) afford for even one per week. But compared to the local guy- who was ok, and less than half the price- it's night and day. One session, and the guy immediately locked into some things I've been seeing from her but don't know how to articulate or help her correct (she leans back on her forehand and sometimes hits her backhand tight to her body). I could see a real change by the end of the first session, which carried into the class the next day, reinforced because it's the same outfit and the coaches talk to each other. 

I think/hope the lessons will make a big difference for her, even if it's still important to get out and get the reps in (harder to do now that school has started). Our local courts are now being used by a local HS after school, so it's been basically impossible to go out and hit with her, other than against a wall... better than nothing. We're looking at another tournament or two this fall and then see how things go. I wish there was more control over matching her up with kids with a range of abilities- so she can learn to be dominant, equal as well as dominated. 

 

[gianmarco]

But even with the losses, after going down 0-3 to the Ukrainian girl, floppinha turned on the jets and played the best tennis I've ever seen from her; going for shots and taking the offensive. Absolutely dominated the kid- and I could see the fear in the girl's face as well her parents (who stopped chatting as soon as things were looking bad) to pull back 4-4. 

That is fantastic and something she should absolutely be thrilled with (as should you). If they are that much better and she was able to do that, it bodes really well.

It's not about the results at this point. It's the process and that's encouraging to read.

Congrats to her.

 

[El Floppo]

It's not about the results at this point. It's the process and that's encouraging to read.

Thanks, gb

It's hard for both of us to remember that, but especially her. She doesn't like losing, and at the end of this last tournament she was despondent- why play if I can't win. But earlier, immediately after that particular match, she was buzzing- because she could feel how well she played when it was all coming together for her. I definitely tried to focus on that, even though I can empathize with not liking to lose. Also emphasized her lack of experience and particularly not getting private lessons with a coach like the other girls (which is my fault, not hers).

Most importantly, she rallied from the tears and still loves playing. She's a great kid...wish I could give her more.

 

[kevzilla]

Keep reminding floppinha that almost without exception, we learn more from losing to someone better than us than we do from beating someone who is not at our level.

(And teach her to alternate drop shots and lobs, it's a devastating tactic at her level.)

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

I played a little tennis for my middle school team, but never really competitive.  The major thing that stuck out to me about the sport was how alone you are.  Your alone in golf, but it's really you vs the course.  Bowling you vs the pins.  Tennis is only you and the other person.  There is no blending in with teammates, or blaming a goalie/kicker for an L.  This can be really heavy for a kid.  I was just playing for fun, but I went up against a few kids who took it way too seriously.    Try to guide her to not be one of those types.

 

[-fish-]

Thanks, gb

It's hard for both of us to remember that, but especially her. She doesn't like losing, and at the end of this last tournament she was despondent- why play if I can't win. But earlier, immediately after that particular match, she was buzzing- because she could feel how well she played when it was all coming together for her. I definitely tried to focus on that, even though I can empathize with not liking to lose. Also emphasized her lack of experience and particularly not getting private lessons with a coach like the other girls (which is my fault, not hers).

Most importantly, she rallied from the tears and still loves playing. She's a great kid...wish I could give her more.

She's going to lose far more tournaments than she's going to win at this stage.   Even if she becomes a college level player, she'll still run into players that will absolutely smoke her. Early tournament play is not about winning.  It's about learning how to focus and how to play against different styles.   Each match try working with her on finding a positive takeaway.   Consider working with her on relaxation techniques to help her concentrate when she's feeling pressure.   Match play is more mental than anything.   Everything else is just muscle memory.   

 

[El Floppo]

I just read the Monday update you wrote, ask @gianmarco I'm a little slow to catch up with the herd at times. 

-If you cannot find another 10 year old to hit with her, how about going up in age to say 12-13?

-New York City? Johnny Mac and the whole Nine Yards, there has to be a great tennis center where kids of all ages are playing or maybe I'm naive because I live in TennisHeaven down here in Florida. How are there not more kids her age that are learning this sport at the same time? 

-The best tips I get are from other players. I was playing as a kid, gave it up at 15, took it back up at about 45 and the last 2-3 years I have basically just copied and absorbed everything I can from others. I STEAL   

You should plan an extended stay in Florida near some of the better Tennis Centers, some time in the future. 

-You mentioned fitness in one of the posts and I just want to key in on what I find to be true on the courts. The better the fitness level typically the better level the player. At some point in the 3.0/3.5 and 4.0/4.5 and that right there is 85% of Club Players, the fitness level is what separates many of them. Someone can play a strong 1st set and hit most shots but start sucking wind and fading in the 2nd and then 3rd assuming they drop the 2nd set. 

There are so many positives of your daughter and son playing tennis and we've focused mostly on her I assume because she is younger and more enthusiastic about Tennis. She likely will learn how to focus and that translates over to schoolwork, if she developed enough game to even make the tennis team in high school I think it would be a major positive on her road to college or life. 

I just realized I missed this post back over the summer- thanks, MOP.

I'm about to update in the next post, but some replies to the comments you made..

- the real issue is trying to play in our neck of the nape in NYC. very few courts that are always packed. I've now met a couple kids and parents that she'd be good hitting with- but it's really, really hard to schedule time with another family (been trying all fall/winter)- and then hope for available courts... the wait is usually an hour plus. And the courts aren't that close to us.

- and sadly... both of the local public courts are now ripped up and gone. one is getting astroturfed over, with 2 courts painted on... but playing on astroturf? the bigger public courts are demoed as part of an East River flood safety project- will take FIVE years to finish (and I'm guessing more). the kids will be in college and deep into HS. 

- there are "tennis centers" or clubs- but they're insanely expensive. just booking court-time is $50-75/hour. Private lessons are $130-150 (I've negotiated ours down...but that's still a lot of scratch for me). Group classes are ~$80/class. It all sucks.

- When she and I go the public courts, she's usually the only kid out there, unless there's some kind of class or lesson (kids not good). the above issues keep a lot of kids from even trying the sport, let alone playing it competitively. the ones that DO play, have parents with a lot of money who drive them out of the city to places like the John McEnroe sport time complex.

I agree about tennis and sports- so many life lessons to learn that aren't necessarily abuot the sport. 

14yo Floppinho is trying out for his HS JV team in a couple months. He's super rusty- no classes for a year plus. Will be taking him out regularly to hit with him the next couple months... but with the courts gone, will have to use a wall, travel across the city to other even more busy public courts, or pony up money I don't have just to rent court time. His HS has a spring training for their teams in FL... so he'll be down there in March (if he makes the team).

Floppinha will undoubtedly make her HS team when she gets there- if she keeps playing. We're looking at middle schools now for her (she's in 5th grade) that have tennis teams- it would be amazing for her to play every day with kids her age... just like you and others have been recommending. Lol... a boy in her current class has been taking lessons from the same outfit we use, doing a class with one of her old coaches. the boy asked the coach if he could beat FLoppinha and the coach laughed at him.

 

[El Floppo]

She's still doing the 2 hour class, which has nice uptick in intensity. We've had to reschedule it twice already... and the group on Fridays is older (13-16) and better- bringing Floppinha's game up by hitting harder and playing faster. Her normal group on Sundays are ok- 12-14yos, with one boy who is legit better than her, but only slightly. I'm happy with the class and the coach and it's up by my alma mater- longish trip, but nice courts in a nice park.

We also finally started real private lessons with the same outfit as her class (same one she's been playing with since the beginning). These things are so damned expensive- I had to negotiate the rate (something I hate to do) down to something closer to what we can(t) afford for even one per week. But compared to the local guy- who was ok, and less than half the price- it's night and day. One session, and the guy immediately locked into some things I've been seeing from her but don't know how to articulate or help her correct (she leans back on her forehand and sometimes hits her backhand tight to her body). I could see a real change by the end of the first session, which carried into the class the next day, reinforced because it's the same outfit and the coaches talk to each other. 

I think/hope the lessons will make a big difference for her, even if it's still important to get out and get the reps in (harder to do now that school has started). Our local courts are now being used by a local HS after school, so it's been basically impossible to go out and hit with her, other than against a wall... better than nothing. We're looking at another tournament or two this fall and then see how things go. I wish there was more control over matching her up with kids with a range of abilities- so she can learn to be dominant, equal as well as dominated. 

That 2 hour class ended with the weather in November (moving to an indoor spot in NJ), so we signed her up for a similar weekly "junior high competition" class at an indoor spot in Brooklyn. It's been good- less kids (4 instead of 6) and all decent players a couple years older- so more hitting and decently competitive although FLoppinha is the only doing tournaments at this point.

Her weekly private coach with the other outfit... booked a TV show and bailed (he's an actor) after like 4 or 5 lessons. awesome. she liked him, and they were just getting some traction with some changes to her swing and footwork. we switched to the guy who was teaching her previous 2 hour class to maintain whatever continuity we could; she's had 3 or 4 lessons with him. she loves the lessons- and I see her really blossoming and learning with them.

sucks that we had to switch mid-stream, but I think the new guy might be better for youth players. he's been working a lot on getting her feet right and tied into her swing. she developed a tendency to move her back foot while hitting, kind of popping up and leaning back.... and losing a ton of power, especially on forehand. also reduced her serve to keeping the racket up for the toss rather than bringing it up with the toss. that's made an immediate difference.

she had her first tournament yesterday since the summer out in the suburbs. I was more nervous than she was... a lot of emotions for me going- really hoping to see that the lessons would show some improvement (that it wasn't wasted money) but mostly that she would play to her ability and have fun. 

1st match was against a tiny girl that had to be younger... I almost felt bad- Floppinha crushed the kid 4-0, but wasn't really playing up to her ability- not going for shots and not committing to following through on the swings 100%. She won just by being older, stronger and more consistent, not better.

2nd match was against another smaller girl (Floppinha is tall for her age), but evenly matched. Floppinha still wasn't going for things and played cautiously- and unusually for her, double faulting on game points a couple times to give up breaks. But she was going for more points- and even charged the net for a couple volley winners (and a couple lobs that beat her). She ended up losing 3-4, but was clearly the better player- just needed to impose herself a bit more.

3rd and final match was against a girl who had beaten both of the other girls handily. After a quick easy talk with her about letting things go- not worrying about winning/losing and just letting her swing rip, and go for more crosscourt or down the line shots. And wala... she played her game and, while it was nip and tuck a bit, she was hitting winners and forcing the other girl to be defensive. 4-2 win.... and on to the semifinals! she could have lost this game, and I would have been super proud of the way she played- everything was clicking, even her serve... but more importantly, she was playing with confidence and going for it.

semifinal was against a girl who (talking to the dad) was coming off winning her first tournament and was currently undefeated. the girl played the way I wanted floppinha to- super aggressive with all her strokes but also moved around the court amazingly well. floppinha played some great tennis, moving the girl side to side and even in and out- but this kid got to almost everything and was hitting aggressive shots even on her gets. I could see Floppinha start to fade (she was getting run all over the court too) and dropped to 3-1, while starting to make a lot of mistakes and was looking visibly frustrated (for the first time ever). ok... need to work on her fitness. but something happened, and she tightened her game back up... fighting back to 3-3, with some great shots. The match went to a tie break (no-ad) and Floppinha was back to moving her around on match point- playing her deep to one corner and then hitting a great crosscourt shot short to the other... on to the finals!...except... the girl got to the shot, and scooped her own winner back crosscourt for the match.

other dad and I gave the point a big clap- a perfect way to win the match. and while Floppinha was bummed about not getting her first trophy if she had made the finals, she was psyched about how she played and getting a couple more wins under her belt. and I was psyched about her seeing her develop and adapt during the tournament, fighting through some adversity. lots still to work on- but only learn about that by doing these things. so so proud of the kid.

 

[El Floppo]

Floppinho is trying out for his HS JV tennis team... the first time he's done any competitive sports since he was 8.

He hasn't taken a class or had any coaching in a long time, and hasn't played much other than with me (and once vs his sister). He had never really retained optimum technique on his ground strokes, but can still play ok.

He was nervous going in... mostly not sure how good the other kids would be- but it sounds like he fits right in, skill-wise. They had the kids all play doubles, a product of too many kids on too few courts. But he's actually pretty good with his volleys and movement, so that might have been to his advantage. His serve- which is, to put it lightly... a work in progress (imagine Jacque Tati)- had guys completely flummoxed. He felt like there were kids definitely better than him, but also some worse. He thinks they'll probably give preference to Sophomores, but I told him to just keep trying hard- up until the sessions are done... that IME, coaches see the effort and attitude put in when kids are similarly skilled and ALWAYS prefer the kids that will keep working hard and with a good attitude.

Only the first day- but I'm proud of the kid for giving it a go and pushing himself outside of his music/theater comfort zone. We'll see how it goes from here.

 

[El Floppo]

FLoppinha, meanwhile, is still shut down with her concussion. Had to eat a tournament fee for last weekend and she's probably a few weeks away from getting back into those. 

Also... the group from whom she's been doing classes and getting private lessons- ####ed us. kept bouncing her regular private lesson slot, until they finally came back with Sundays at 8pm. she's 10. she's not going to the worst neighborhood below 96th st to get coached in a building lobby on completely non-regulation courts until almost her bed-time, while hoping the homeless drug addicts actively dealing and shooting up on the sidewalk outside don't kill us.

So now we're back to square 1 with the coaching... and having a brutal time finding anywhere that actually has availability, let alone at a price I can afford. AND... NYC has torn up the two tennis courts near us- god knows when they'll be back (the main one not until 2025, supposedly), so we can't even go out and hit a ball except against a wall.

Had dinner with an old HS friend- and a former HS tennis player- who lives in Germany. He was talking about his 14yo daughter getting coaching and asked about my situation. He pays less for a month of two classes per week than I pay for a single class. It's ####ed here.

 

[El Floppo]

Floppinhas concussion has cleared, and she played in a tournament today.

She's only been taking 1 class a week and hitting with me against a wall 1-2 times a week. Private coach is gone, and we can't find anybody within striking distance, cost or location-wise. But I feel like she's been making strides in her class, and has looked good...was curious how she'd do today...first tourney for us in NJ.

She fell asleep in the rental car...waking up as we pulled in, just in time to start her first match. She looked asleep on the court and went down 0-2 to a kid that wasn't terrible, but was the worst girl of the kids I was seeing out there without much of a game other than returning the ball into play. Looked like it was going to be a loooong day based on the quality I was seeing there.

But she woke up finally, and came back to win 4-3.

2nd match was against a kid a good 3-4 inches taller than my tall for her age daughter, who served and hit the ball like a teenager. Out of pure luck, floppinha had a makeup class last night and was put with advanced teens (it was awesome...wish she'd been with them all along) who hit the ball even harder- so this girl's power game and big serve didn't phase her. I lost track of score and was shocked when she came off the court to hear she'd won 4-2. That girl was shocked too.

3rd game floppinha was in the zone and just playing great tennis against a very good but smaller kid...4-1 and on to the semis after sweeping her group.

I had seen two of the 3 other semifinalist play and thought she could take them. She was matched against the one I hadn't seen play (but who's mom I had been chatting with). They go out and start warming up...and this was the first time I'd seen a kid who was just flat out at another level - and only 8yo! Crushing every shot and serve with lethal intent wherever she wanted. Floppinha went down 0-2 pdq, took the next game on deuce (no ad) and then dropped the next two games to lose 1-4. Chatting with the parents, turns out the kids dad is the CEO of a huge tennis center in NJ with equally huge background in the sport. Said the kid played there daily and basically playing since birth....it showed. 8yo!

But I am insanely proud of floppinha for the whole thing- sweeping the group in her first tourney in months, no coach, no courts, 1 weekly group class...but still finding a way to get better.

She was heartbroken after the loss- not because she was sad about losing, she knew the other girl was way better...but about the luck of the draw. She really wanted a trophy- even 2nd place- and was in tears because of the luck of the draw (2nd tourney in row getting the eventual winner in the semis) getting this kid instead of the other girls who she "knew she could beat". I loved seeing that confidence in her. And I loved seeing her go for her shots, which she did all day...including a bunch of cross court passing shots after moving the kid around court, some volleys from the net and even an overhead and an ace.

 

[kevzilla]

God, how I wish I could go up there and give floppinha the cold, dead eyes of an assassin. I  feel like I have missed my calling. 

 

[El Floppo]

I had seen two of the 3 other semifinalist play and thought she could take them. She was matched against the one I hadn't seen play (but who's mom I had been chatting with). They go out and start warming up...and this was the first time I'd seen a kid who was just flat out at another level - and only 8yo! Crushing every shot and serve with lethal intent wherever she wanted. Floppinha went down 0-2 pdq, took the next game on deuce (no ad) and then dropped the next two games to lose 1-4. Chatting with the parents, turns out the kids dad is the CEO of a huge tennis center in NJ with equally huge background in the sport. Said the kid played there daily and basically playing since birth....it showed. 8yo!

just checked the results... this 8yo won the whole thing and dropped only one game the entire tournament. to Floppinha.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

For dog's sake, don't let her play on Astroturf.  It kills the knees.

Around here (Houston), the locals can use the school courts.  Of course, we have year-round sports, which helps everyone.

 

[Harry Frogfish]

just checked the results... this 8yo won the whole thing and dropped only one game the entire tournament. to Floppinha.

You're overdoing it, imo.  Drop it down a gear and see how things play out.  No offense, but you're asking for advice and that's mine.  I've seen a lot of it, and specifically tennis.  You'll keep telling yourself you're not force-feeding her and this is what's best for her, but it usually isn't the truth.  Time will tell and you don't want to be on the wrong side of that one.  TBH, this reads like another consumed little league parent, or any sport for that matter, where Americans go crazy thinking they've got a superstar on their hands.

 

[El Floppo]

just checked the results... this 8yo won the whole thing and dropped only one game the entire tournament. to Floppinha.

You're overdoing it, imo.  Drop it down a gear and see how things play out.  No offense, but you're asking for advice and that's mine.  I've seen a lot of it, and specifically tennis.  You'll keep telling yourself you're not force-feeding her and this is what's best for her, but it usually isn't the truth.  Time will tell and you don't want to be on the wrong side of that one.  TBH, this reads like another consumed little league parent, or any sport for that matter, where Americans go crazy thinking they've got a superstar on their hands.

I appreciate the comment and concern, even if it's swaying into parenting and not tennis commentary.

I work very hard to be aware of riding the line between support and push... whatever my kids do at this point is because they have an interest or passion in it, and I support it however they need. I've said repeatedly in here that for me her path in this is about her enjoying it and hopefully progressing and growing in the sport. she's 10. she's learning to play a sport competitively... winning, losing, superstar, ditch-digger- that's the goal.

In light of everything else I've written in here- What about that comment above is me overdoing it, specifically?

 

[stbugs]

I appreciate the comment and concern, even if it's swaying into parenting and not tennis commentary.

I work very hard to be aware of riding the line between support and push... whatever my kids do at this point is because they have an interest or passion in it, and I support it however they need. I've said repeatedly in here that for me her path in this is about her enjoying it and hopefully progressing and growing in the sport. she's 10. she's learning to play a sport competitively... winning, losing, superstar, ditch-digger- that's the goal.

In light of everything else I've written in here- What about that comment above is me overdoing it, specifically?

Honestly, the italics were a bit much. 

 

[El Floppo]

Her last class ended with winters finish, and the bubble over the courts came down, rendering it back to all public courts and no classes...which seems stupid, but hey- NYC.

Been scrambling to find a late spring class for her to keep playing, and have cast the net further. Ended up out at the national tennis center next to Shea Stadium where the US Open is played. She had her first tryout last summer here. It's an hour commute by easy subway.

Just starting her first class after getting assessed on Friday. In the past, places have assessed her and put her with their most advanced kids for her age bracket 10-12). Here, she was placed several wrungs below that in 12u "plus" group, with kids who are just starting their tournament track...which sounded right. She played representative of her abilities, good and bad, at the assesment- so I trusted it.

The cost is great compared to everywhere closer to Manhattan..like 1/4 price. Facilities are amazing (it's where the pros do rainy day indoor practice during the Open). But theres 13-14 kids on 3 courts with 4 coaches...so a little busier than her usual 3-4 kids with 1 coach. 

The kids so far look spot on for her level, some better and most looking right around her.

Her typical class elsewhere, she's the best kid and the only who seems to care...here, every kid seems into it. 

Wish we had been here from the start of this for her (although the 1hr commute is a midweek unlikely thing, especially if mom has to take her).

 

[El Floppo]

And her serve...she's still learning the whole thing. 

Funny watching all these kids. A handful have the whole motion down where it just looks fluid and natural- and no surprise serve really well and consistently. The rest, including Floppinha, can get the ball in but lack that fluidity and comfort through the whole serving motion- from toss through finish- and no surprise, aren't serving as well or consistently. 

It feels like something that's about lots of reps and proper training. I can help with the reps, but not the technique.

 

[kevzilla]

Most women toss the ball too damn high. The ball should fall 12-18" max.

 

[El Floppo]

Most women toss the ball too damn high. The ball should fall 12-18" max.

she had a coach in one of her classes who said to try to toss the ball so that the apex was as close to where you hit it as possible- to hit it when it was "stopped" in the air rather than falling down with increasing speed. 

floppinha tosses it about two body lengths deep into orbit.

 

[That one guy]

she had a coach in one of her classes who said to try to toss the ball so that the apex was as close to where you hit it as possible- to hit it when it was "stopped" in the air rather than falling down with increasing speed. 

floppinha tosses it about two body lengths deep into orbit.

Toss is so key to creating the consistency:  how high, how far in front, are you stationary or dragging back foot forward, etc.  The serve and making it the weapon it needs to be is so darn complex!  It’s one of those motions that looks and seems simple, but any little tweak in movement and rhythm and it’s completely screwed.  I also remember during those initial phases of trying to learn my serve (key is her serve, they're all going to be somewhat custom) that it was a feeling, one time I did it right and I felt it and my brain/body knew that was the motion and I could then work on repeating that exact thing

 

[kevzilla]

For me it was two large buckets (about 150) every day after practice for about 18 months. 

 

[gianmarco]

Incredible instructional video on how to serve

His technique is spot on. 

One more -- The feeling of "hitting up" or "reaching up" and why it's important.

 

[El Floppo]

Incredible instructional video on how to serve

His technique is spot on. 

One more -- The feeling of "hitting up" or "reaching up" and why it's important.

I was told this one.

 

[El Floppo]

Rough tennis tournament for 10yo Floppinha just now. 0-3 and a quick exit in tears to wrap up her 10u tennis career. She played like a kid who spent 2 nights at a school camping trip this week, and the last 3 weeks concentrating on rehearsals and performances of her school musical and not practicing tennis.

In that time, she's developed a hitch in her backhand that has destroyed it...usually her strength...and I have no ability to fix it.

She did have some great ground strokes at times, and was consistent with getting her serve in (even if the other girls were teeing up on it).

Have to get her coaching or this will be a rough go for her.

 

[El Floppo]

Tryouts:

She tried out for the NYC City parks Lacoste program at the US Open location at the beginning of the summer, as much to get a feel for how she stacked up to other girls her age. She measured up surprisingly well, although she didn't do anywhere near her best... but was asked to participate in the summer program, which unfortunately wasn't possible for us time-wise (wife had signed her up for this).

She also tried out for the John McEnroe School scholarship program a few weeks later- this is an ongoing, full year program that is pretty kick ### including fitness, private coaching and competitive play on forward including college recruiting. She once again didn't do her best (which was frustrating for her and me), but it wouldn't have mattered- the other girls were clearly a couple levels above her and she didn't make the cut. The coaches did make a point of saying how much they liked her attitude and expressed hope she'd participate in the program (no scholarship- even more expensive than the other spot). John Mc was there and actively walking around looking at kids, including floppinha- apparently this is the case all year.

A year later, she's doing weekly classes at the NTC where she had that first tryout. it's an hour each way on the subway for us on Sunday afternoons. that part sucks... but the facilities are world class (indoors where the US Open pros practice during the Open) and they did a great job leveling the players so that she's with other equivalently skilled kids (12u... she's about to turn 11). Unfortunately, very little instruction... it's a place to go out and get good competitive time with similar players, while paired with coaching there (or elsewhere). it's too far to go for a lesson midweek.

She couldn't do the tryout for the Lacoste program unfortunately- same day as her school musical. 

But... she is trying out for the John Mac scholarhip program again this Saturday. 

it's crazy to think that was only a year ago. the girls I mentioned above that were "clearly a couple level above her"....were basically her current level. 

she still doesn't have a coach. we still don't have courts near us to hit on (both sets of courts I've mentioned in here were torn up) in the fall.

so it's been her once a week class, and hitting a ball against a wall with me 1 or 2x week with some saggy baggy old balls. plus the tennis balls.

I have been talking to two coaches about lessons for the last month... and we've been cursed. 

one guy is the english dude from our neighborhood court (torn up) she had done some lessons with last summer- he had found a new space to hit nearby- a play yard, not courts. each time we had a lesson, something came up... missed flight, COVID, and now... the play yard is filled up with kids, so cant hit a tennis ball there. He lives by giving lessons- so I doubt he's yanking us around.

other guy is a local HS coach we met a tourney, and then while touring his school for Floppinha. he's been super interested in coaching her, but is set up at the school (an hour + away via subway and then Uber) or at a crazy expensive private club in Long Island City. I finally caved and decided to take her out to deep Brooklyn to his school for a lesson last Saturday (where he controls the lesson price)... the same day she came down with some mystery illness with a high fever and sore throat...so we had to cancel (not covid). this guy has the tendency to text the day of an opening and ask if she come for a lesson- which doesn't work with my work schedule, her life schedule and 1+hr travel time each way.

SUCKS she hasn't had a lesson before this tryout. I'm still trying for Thurs or Fri.

took her to Brooklyn today to the courts where she had been doing her previous group class... now turned over to public courts without a bubble (a 40 min bus/subway and walk away). bought new balls, and hit with her for an hour.

So good to actually hit on a court and not a wall! She's still lacking consistency, which makes sense considering how little she plays (hits long and into the net)... but is hitting the ball harder than I can return at times. and is looking great moving around the court- solid with volleys and overheads (not world-beating, but decent and consistent) and hitting the ball cross court and moving me around with intent.

I mentioned she had developed a hitch with her backhand (evident at her last tournament) that we've mostly corrected- proud of her (and me) for that. Her serve is still a weakness, but I think that's par for the course at this age (10), but she seems to be getting a little better and more consistent with it. 

A coach would be massive for her... still. dammit.

I have reservations at the court there again on Thurs and Fri. It's usually filled up- she has today and thurs off from school, and will be taking Friday off for other things, so we were able to get on mid-day (still the only reservations available). I'm hoping to get her a coaching session between now and Sat and also hoping the reps on the court with new balls helps with her consistency. 

Getting this scholarship would be a gamechanger for me to be able to get her better coaching.. I just can't afford what's available in this city. And her new school in the fall has a bunch of rich kids who play there during the week- there's a bus that takes them to the location and back. I don't want her to know any of this, because I want her to just treat the try-out as a clinic... have fun first off and try her best (on and off the court, including listening and picking up balls). but dammit... I hope it goes well for her.

tl;dr- my daughter's going to Harvard on a full tennis scholarship or I'm kicking her out.

 

[El Floppo]

But... she is trying out for the John Mac scholarhip program again this Saturday. 

sigh.

I took her out three times this week to hit for an hour at a court in brooklyn. I mentioned we had rejiggered her backhand to mostly fix how it had gotten wonky (was chopping at the ball and not following through over her shoulder). but now- just this week- her forehand has fallen apart. as I see it, she's gotten stronger with her forehand and she's overhitting- meeting the ball further back instead of out front and flat- not following through with a good brush motion over her shoulder- mostly sweeping across her body. the ball goes into the net or flying long when it's not just right (at which time she crushes it). with both swings, I've also noticed that she wasn't getting her feet into good positions early and had reverted to leaning back when she hit... something the bit of coaching in the fall tried to correct right away.

so for the tryout with her game inconsistent and technically messy, I just wanted her to make sure she listened and followed commands well, worked hard off the court (gathering balls, etc) and showed a positive attitude regardless of her play.

tryout starts for her group with anaerobic stuff, including some short sprints and shuttles. she ignores the instructions and does her own thing... and is still slower than the other girls in her group. sigh. 

moving on to tennis drills... a genuine mess. her stroke was all over the place and she struggled to even get the coaches' set up shots back in play (net or long) reverting to the wonky swing with forehand AND backhand, and leaning back without feet set.

serving- which we worked on each of the days and she was ok, not great- was a mess. couldn't even reach the net with it and had forgotten to do everything we had worked on this week- particularly snapping down after contact. 

after shuffling some of the players around (better players moved to another "A" court), they moved on to a king/queen of the court match play- with initial ball hit by the coach (not served by the kids). ongoing mess, with the occasional lucking back into her stroke to hit solid winners or stay in the point. but mostly footwork and swing all over the place and balls played into the net or out of play. 

the entire time she was on the court, two parents behind were talking about their kids... "well, we just had a court built at our weekend house and she meets her coach there" ..."what about physical training- we have our daughter meet with a physical trainer twice a week outside of the tennis".

I sat there getting depressed. 

I know Floppinha has a lot of ability. I know she works insanely hard to meet her goals and I know she's a great student- absorbing information and applying it well- with whatever she does and with a great attitude. she's also an amazingly respectful, empathetic and kind kid.

her tennis "failings" today here are entirely on me. I do the best I can, but it's all I can do to keep a roof over our heads with food on the table. something like this scholarship is the only way I can see affording to have her improve in the sport. once a week classes don't do it. and going out and hitting with me occasionally isn't doing it. but it appears the only way to be good enough to get the scholarship is to have shelled out for coaching previously- or be former tennis player who can coach her on my own. so to get the coaching, she needs to have had the coaching. tbh, I'm not sure if I'd feel worse or better if floppinha had actually played well... because there were kids who were on a much higher level than her with every aspect of their games... so even at her best, she was going to be far behind this more elite group. but at least at her best, I'd hope the coaches could see and evaluate a very raw kid with ability who might deserve a scholarship with her play, if not her relative poverty. but that wasn't the case. my wife came, and made me feel worse about everything, including bothering having floppinha play in the first place... wanting to instead just focus our resources and her time on stuff she's legitimately good at, like art. because she had a bad tryout and once again didn't step up when it was needed. I just want the kid to play a sport and improve... but I don't know how to get improvement with how we've been going about things (1x weekly class and occasional hitting sessions with novice dad).