Terrance West vs Isaiah Crowell (1 Viewer)

[cloppbeast]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

 

[Bob Magaw]

- Bryce Brown is an apt comparison, since he was obviously more talented than many of those drafted (in hind sight), but still wasn't chosen. Many in here touted him as such, but were ridiculed. Similar to now.

Brown was drafted in the 7th.

Not much difference between being a 7th rounder and UDFA.

Yeah, actually there is. I'd say there is a bigger difference between an UDFA and a 7th round pick than there is between being a 7th round pick and a 4 round pick or better.

A 7th round prospect is in a group of about 40.A UFA is In a group of every player that wasn't drafted. Every team brings in more than 10, so you are talking about hundreds of players.

 

[Chaka]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That simply is not true. Ever heard of Vontaze Burfict? There was no question that he had first round talent but he went undrafted because of his off the field issues. And he has rewarded the Bengals by playing up to his potential.

Doesn't mean Crowell is any good but extremely talented players do go undrafted.

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That simply is not true. Ever heard of Vontaze Burfict? There was no question that he had first round talent but he went undrafted because of his off the field issues.

This is absolutely not true.

 

[Chaka]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That simply is not true. Ever heard of Vontaze Burfict? There was no question that he had first round talent but he went undrafted because of his off the field issues.

This is absolutely not true.

How so? Was Vontaze Burfict not considered to be a first round talent, was he not drafted because he was a head case or was he secretly drafted and none of us knew about it?

ETA: And why leave out the part where I acknowledge that it has no bearing on whether or not Crowell has talent?

 

[jurb26]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That simply is not true. Ever heard of Vontaze Burfict? There was no question that he had first round talent but he went undrafted because of his off the field issues.

This is absolutely not true.

How so? Was Vontaze Burfict not considered to be a first round talent, was he not drafted because he was a head case or was he secretly drafted and none of us knew about it?ETA: And why leave out the part where I acknowledge that it has no bearing on whether or not Crowell has talent?

Before his final season he was. Then his lack of athleticism on the field paired with his off field problems, blaming his coaches for his poor performance and dismal combine and pro days dropped him to a day 3 prospect to nearly everyone. He was widely regarded as a loose cannon and not just off the field. He was known to be difficult to coach and roam uncontrollably. Pair that with what need up being horrible measurable marks in his drills and he fell... A lot. His off field problems were a small fraction of the reason he fell. His final season was a train wreak of massive proportions.

You do realize this guy ran a 5.09 40 at the combine, right?

I'm not commenting on Crowell, just correcting this info on Burfict.

 

[Stealthycat]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

 

[SproutDaddy]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

 

[msommer]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

Hate to but...

Who's better at pass blocking?

 

[cloppbeast]

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

Quite possibly neither Crowell nor West will amount to anything special either. At least with Tate you know you get a decent running back - likely underrated.

 

[SproutDaddy]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

Hate to but...Who's better at pass blocking?

I'm guessing we'll see in the preseason.

 

[RaiderBones]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

I think that line of thinking is a mistake for a fantasy player. A lot can be learned about a player in OTA's. I never ever discount the news I hear during OTA's.

 

[Nero]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

Three years ago, Ben Tate was the equivalent of what Christine Michael is now. He was better prospect than both West and Crowell. I think Crowell is way better than West, but not sure if he can overtake Tate.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Good 5-minute video on West. Dude is driven.

 

[cloppbeast]

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

I think that line of thinking is a mistake for a fantasy player. A lot can be learned about a player in OTA's. I never ever discount the news I hear during OTA's.

Unfortunately I haven't kept track very well, but I remember lots of players who impressed in OTAs/camp and then disappointed when real games around. You are worse off today had you bought into the glowing reports of Kenbrell Thompkins, and Zach Sudfeld last season - and there's many more where that came from also. If anecdotes don't leave enough of an impression to render this kind of hype meaningless, a fantasy player should at least keep it in perspective. In other words, take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard.

If you liked West before, you probably already expected him to do well in OTAs so this shouldn't change your opinion. If you kind of liked him before, or if you didn't, you might bump him a little or just monitor the situation a little closer.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

I think that line of thinking is a mistake for a fantasy player. A lot can be learned about a player in OTA's. I never ever discount the news I hear during OTA's.

Unfortunately I haven't kept track very well, but I remember lots of players who impressed in OTAs/camp and then disappointed when real games around. You are worse off today had you bought into the glowing reports of Kenbrell Thompkins, and Zach Sudfeld last season - and there's many more where that came from also. If anecdotes don't leave enough of an impression to render this kind of hype meaningless, a fantasy player should at least keep it in perspective. In other words, take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard.

If you liked West before, you probably already expected him to do well in OTAs so this shouldn't change your opinion. If you kind of liked him before, or if you didn't, you might bump him a little or just monitor the situation a little closer.

I was a buyer on Thompkins in every league last year. Considering how far he came in a short time, the positives he showed as a rookie (and granted there were negatives also), and how he's fairing in OTAs this year, I'm not sure he's the best example of the point you're trying to make. IMO he's a definite hold to wait and see.

Sudfield on the other hand is a great example for you.

 

[cloppbeast]

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

I think that line of thinking is a mistake for a fantasy player. A lot can be learned about a player in OTA's. I never ever discount the news I hear during OTA's.

Unfortunately I haven't kept track very well, but I remember lots of players who impressed in OTAs/camp and then disappointed when real games around. You are worse off today had you bought into the glowing reports of Kenbrell Thompkins, and Zach Sudfeld last season - and there's many more where that came from also. If anecdotes don't leave enough of an impression to render this kind of hype meaningless, a fantasy player should at least keep it in perspective. In other words, take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard.

If you liked West before, you probably already expected him to do well in OTAs so this shouldn't change your opinion. If you kind of liked him before, or if you didn't, you might bump him a little or just monitor the situation a little closer.

I was a buyer on Thompkins in every league last year. Considering how far he came in a short time, the positives he showed as a rookie (and granted there were negatives also), and how he's fairing in OTAs this year, I'm not sure he's the best example of the point you're trying to make. IMO he's a definite hold to wait and see.

Sudfield on the other hand is a great example for you.

I didn't intend to say anything about Thompkins, because you're definitely correct that it's too early to tell. Even if he's a hold, I said something quite literally true, since his value now is far less than last year.

I still wish I could think of some more accurate examples from the past, but my memory fails me. I think it's the drugs.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

I think that line of thinking is a mistake for a fantasy player. A lot can be learned about a player in OTA's. I never ever discount the news I hear during OTA's.

Unfortunately I haven't kept track very well, but I remember lots of players who impressed in OTAs/camp and then disappointed when real games around. You are worse off today had you bought into the glowing reports of Kenbrell Thompkins, and Zach Sudfeld last season - and there's many more where that came from also. If anecdotes don't leave enough of an impression to render this kind of hype meaningless, a fantasy player should at least keep it in perspective. In other words, take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard.

If you liked West before, you probably already expected him to do well in OTAs so this shouldn't change your opinion. If you kind of liked him before, or if you didn't, you might bump him a little or just monitor the situation a little closer.

I was a buyer on Thompkins in every league last year. Considering how far he came in a short time, the positives he showed as a rookie (and granted there were negatives also), and how he's fairing in OTAs this year, I'm not sure he's the best example of the point you're trying to make. IMO he's a definite hold to wait and see.Sudfield on the other hand is a great example for you.

I didn't intend to say anything about Thompkins, because you're definitely correct that it's too early to tell. Even if he's a hold, I said something quite literally true, since his value now is far less than last year.

I still wish I could think of some more accurate examples from the past, but my memory fails me. I think it's the drugs.

There's a lot to be said for blissful stupor.

You have a very good point though. But dynasty owners know that if you don't accept the risk and extend yourself, someone else will - and that's the rub. When that gem does pan out he's long gone by the time the risk averse finally decide to act. So you take a chance and accept some losses, or you end up a spectator.

 

[kutta]

Good 5-minute video on West. Dude is driven.

Getting a video not found message

 

[cloppbeast]

You have a very good point though. But dynasty owners know that if you don't accept the risk and extend yourself, someone else will - and that's the rub. When that gem does pan out he's long gone by the time the risk averse finally decide to act. So you take a chance and accept some losses, or you end up a spectator.

You have to use the best information to get the best results. To me, practice report buzz created by often sensational beat writers should mostly go into one ear and out the other. Fantasy players should go with guys they like instead of swaying with the wind. If you like Tre Mason more than West as a player, don't let the Brown's hype-stirring beat reporters change your mind. You liked Mason more than West for some reason, and that reason likely means more than OTA reports. Allow the buzz to increase West's value in relation to Mason's; get your player at a discount.

 

[Chaka]

If Crowell had that much talent in the eyes of NFL scouts, he'd have been drafted.

This

He's a RB, many teams feel they don't need to invest much on the position. The very coaching staff he went to especially.

There will still more than 20 RBs drafted. That's a pretty weak excuse.

I'm with those that think if he was truly as talented as Waldman and others believe, he would have been drafted.

Can't believe this is really even much of a debate as I think it's West by a mile.

That simply is not true. Ever heard of Vontaze Burfict? There was no question that he had first round talent but he went undrafted because of his off the field issues.

This is absolutely not true.

How so? Was Vontaze Burfict not considered to be a first round talent, was he not drafted because he was a head case or was he secretly drafted and none of us knew about it?ETA: And why leave out the part where I acknowledge that it has no bearing on whether or not Crowell has talent?

Before his final season he was. Then his lack of athleticism on the field paired with his off field problems, blaming his coaches for his poor performance and dismal combine and pro days dropped him to a day 3 prospect to nearly everyone.He was widely regarded as a loose cannon and not just off the field. He was known to be difficult to coach and roam uncontrollably. Pair that with what need up being horrible measurable marks in his drills and he fell... A lot. His off field problems were a small fraction of the reason he fell. His final season was a train wreak of massive proportions.

You do realize this guy ran a 5.09 40 at the combine, right?

I'm not commenting on Crowell, just correcting this info on Burfict.

We are likely going to end up splitting hairs here. No doubt you are right but even as late as January after his final season Mel Kiper had him as a mid first round draft pick (NFL.com reflects the same). And that was after his famously undisciplined final season with I don't know how many personal fouls. It wasn't until he showed up to the combine, and his pro day, noticeably out of shape and reportedly failed a drug test that he became, as Mike Mayock said, "undraftable".

My stance is still that he was a clear first round talent (high round talent if you must) but his 10 cent head cost him big time.

 

[kutta]

You have a very good point though. But dynasty owners know that if you don't accept the risk and extend yourself, someone else will - and that's the rub. When that gem does pan out he's long gone by the time the risk averse finally decide to act. So you take a chance and accept some losses, or you end up a spectator.

You have to use the best information to get the best results. To me, practice report buzz created by often sensational beat writers should mostly go into one ear and out the other. Fantasy players should go with guys they like instead of swaying with the wind. If you like Tre Mason more than West as a player, don't let the Brown's hype-stirring beat reporters change your mind. You liked Mason more than West for some reason, and that reason likely means more than OTA reports. Allow the buzz to increase West's value in relation to Mason's; get your player at a discount.

I fully willing to admit that I not an expert on NFL player evaluations. And, I don't get to see these guys in mini camp, so I can't make judgments based on camp unless I read what others say. Ignoring information and holding on to your belief that one player is better than another just because you thought that for some reason a few months back is a mistake IMO.

 

[cloppbeast]

I fully willing to admit that I not an expert on NFL player evaluations. And, I don't get to see these guys in mini camp, so I can't make judgments based on camp unless I read what others say. Ignoring information and holding on to your belief that one player is better than another just because you thought that for some reason a few months back is a mistake IMO.

I don't call myself an expert in player evaluations either. You could have any number of reasons for liking one player over another before June workouts. Those reasons may not include trusting your own qualitative analysis. Perhaps you put your trust behind a few reliable scouts, or draft pedigree, or combine performance. Whatever the case, you're better off trusting those reasons than siding with pre-season buzz. How a player actually performs in their first OTA session means very little in the grand scheme. Beat writer opinions of OTAs and coach-speak mean even less.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

Ben Gay says hello...

 

[kutta]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

Ben Gay says hello...

And so does Arian Foster

 

[Balco]

There have been many talented, fantasy relevant running backs that have gone undrafted in recent years, the issue is it is often difficult for them to make an impact in year one because they have to wait for an opportunity.

We have seen plenty of undrafted backs have fantasy relevant seasons:

Ryan Grant

Ernest Graham

Willie Parker

Dominic Rhodes

Arian Foster

Fred Jackson

Joquie Bell

Priest Holmes

Jackie Battle

Danny Woodhead

Terry Allen

 

[msommer]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

Ben Gay says hello...

And so does Arian Foster

Didn't we hear good things in OTAs about Alfred Morris?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Sounding like West is impressing

I wonder the correlation between impressing in OTAs and succeeding in real football. Many guys who do well in camp, let alone OTAs, still suck in regular games.

For all we know West could win rookie of the year or fail to log a snap. All I'm saying: I wouldn't change my opinion of a player based on June/July football, or even August football for that matter.

Ben Gay says hello...

And so does Arian Foster

touche

 

[12punch]

RB Christine Michael was a beast last year ... in preseason

Tate is the man and will be barring injury

I could easily see one of these guys beating out Tate. He's nothing special.

Hate to but...

Who's better at pass blocking?

here's what PFF thinks of tate

Tate isn’t a very good passing-down back. He’s averaging a poor 4.2 yards per reception over the last two seasons and graded out as our worst-rated receiving tailback of 2013. Additionally, he was one of the worst in the pass-blocking department. Unless significant improvement is seen during the offseason, Tate figures to be replaced in passing situations.

 

[Bob Magaw]

There have been many talented, fantasy relevant running backs that have gone undrafted in recent years, the issue is it is often difficult for them to make an impact in year one because they have to wait for an opportunity.

We have seen plenty of undrafted backs have fantasy relevant seasons:

Ryan Grant

Ernest Graham

Willie Parker

Dominic Rhodes

Arian Foster

Fred Jackson

Joquie Bell

Priest Holmes

Jackie Battle

Danny Woodhead

Terry Allen

It's definitely not impossible. Though, when you place a list like this against all the free agents that failed abysmally and never amounted to anything, it is a low percentage play, as has been pointed out. Some scouts thought Crowell is the most talented RB in the class. I don't know about that, but if true, I'm guessing that is an unusual situation (that would be like Gio Bernard or Carlos Hyde not being drafted - in that case, I'd like their chances to make a team better than the typical UFA, though I suppose it might depend on the reason/s they weren't drafted ).

 

[KellysHeroes]

Any blips on the Crowell front besides people from this board? Because I see a lot of West ones.

 

[jurb26]

Any blips on the Crowell front besides people from this board? Because I see a lot of West ones.

It's been alarmingly quiet. Not sure what's been going on. Did he get any reps in OTAs?

 

[msommer]

When you're UDFA you seriously need to make some noise in OTA and TC to not just get cut. TC is starting soon so there might be news coming, but still...

 

[Nero]

Any blips on the Crowell front besides people from this board? Because I see a lot of West ones.

It's been alarmingly quiet. Not sure what's been going on. Did he get any reps in OTAs?

I think he had a hammy issue in OTA's. No worries.

 

[cstu]

When you're UDFA you seriously need to make some noise in OTA and TC to not just get cut. TC is starting soon so there might be news coming, but still...

IIRC there was a lot of negative buzz on Da'Rick Rogers and he still made the team. I don't think the Browns are deep enough at RB to cut Crowell unless he fails to show anything.

 

[Bronco Billy]

When you're UDFA you seriously need to make some noise in OTA and TC to not just get cut. TC is starting soon so there might be news coming, but still...

IIRC there was a lot of negative buzz on Da'Rick Rogers and he still made the team. I don't think the Browns are deep enough at RB to cut Crowell unless he fails to show anything.

Actually Rogers was cut by BUF, whom he initially signed with, before IND gave him a tryout and he stuck.

 

[msommer]

It's my impression that Rogers had a quiet camp. But I could be remembering incorrectly

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Any blips on the Crowell front besides people from this board? Because I see a lot of West ones.

Crowell suffered some sort of injury and was held out pretty much all of OTAs. He will get his shot in a few days once camp opens up and then we should get real action reports on him and the rest of the competion but right now the media is framing this as a battle between Tate and West but I think we'll hear more about Crowell soon and others who are being overlooked.

Head Coach Mike Pettine is on record as saying you need a RBBC to compete in the AFCN.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/06/terrys_talkin_about_the_cavs_d.html

About the Browns ground game

A year ago, guess what team led the league in passes attempted?

It's the same team that had the fewest rushing touchdowns in the NFL. That's right, your Cleveland Browns.

Switching between Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer -- the Browns heaved 681 passes in 2013. The next team throwing the ball the most was Denver (675 attempts). That made sense because Peyton Manning was the quarterback.

But the Browns ... the most passes in the NFL?

Part of the reason was the Trent Richardson trade after the second game of the season. They replaced him at running back with an aching, aging, Willis McGahee and his grumpy knees. The 2013 Browns acted as if the running game was totally irrelevant -- and they had Otto Graham at quarterback.

That's why General Manager Ray Farmer deserves credit for signing Ben Tate to start at running back, then drafting Terrance West in the third round.

1. Tate has battled injuries for much of his career. But this is not the return of Montario Hardesty, who never was healthy enough to stay on the field for long. Tate rushed for 771 yards last season, a 4.3-yard average. In 2011, it was 942 yards (5.4 average).

2. Having played only three years and being 25, Tate should have some miles left on his football tires.

3. West had a monster career at Towson State, where he rushed for 2,509 yards and 41 touchdowns. His team lost to North Dakota State in the FCS championship game. That's the division once called 1-AA, where Youngstown State was a national power under Jim Tressel.

4. Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee. You'd like to have a guy that can carry most of the load, but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

As Browns fans know, running backs get hurt. Last season, Dion Lewis broke his leg. Hardesty had knee issues. Richardson was traded.

So much for depth in the backfield.

Lewis joins Tate and West in the backfield. Edwin Baker also is in camp, and he had some nice moments near the end of last season with 171 yards in 43 carries, a 4.0 average. Baker had 50 percent of the Browns rushing touchdowns -- two. The other two were scored by McGahee.

Baker has had some very good moments in the spring practices. It seems he is ahead of veteran Chris Ogbonnaya.

Ogbonnaya may be used mostly on special teams. He had a chance to establish himself last season. Not sure if part of the problem was that he had to play some fullback, or that had some minor injuries, but his stats (240 yards in 49 carries for a 4.9 average) seem better than how he actually played.

The backs most worthy of discussion are Tate and West, but an honorable mention to Baker. Lewis also is on the roster, but he doesn't seem to be receiving a lot of attention. Undrafted rookie Isaiah Crowell has had some nice moments.

But really, the story has been West and Tate.

Pettine likes what he's seen of West and Tate: "They're both always looking to work north and south. They have a good feel for the zone (blocking) scheme and are able to put their foot in the ground and get north and south. It's encouraging when you get the feeling you're going to have runners that are going to get yardage after contact and are very rarely going to get knocked back."

Pettine means that West and Tate make one quick cut, then run straight ahead. Remember how Richardson fell into the bad habit and stalling and dancing before hitting the hole? The Browns want to avoid that, and believe Tate and West have the right approach for the offense.

The 5-foot-9, 230-pound West has impressed.

"He's already just flashed some of the things that made him special," said Pettine. "For a big man to move the way that he moves, just some of the cuts that he's made. He's got dancer-type feet, but it's in a 230-pound man."

It might not play out where one guy is the bell cow.

We could see a full-blown RBBC by the time this all sorts out.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2136405-why-running-back-by-committee-is-best-for-the-cleveland-browns-in-2014

Why Running Back-by-Committee Is Best for the Cleveland Browns in 2014 By Andrea Hangst, AFC North Lead Writer
Jul 22, 2014

 

[cloppbeast]

Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee. You'd like to have a guy that can carry most of the load, but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee. You'd like to have a guy that can carry most of the load, but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

You can try to parse it anyway you want but what Browns HC Mike Pettine says is you want to be able to alternate guys and get fresh legs out there.

Could you explain how do you read that any way other than what the head coach of the Cleveland Browns when asked about his running backs and how he plans to use them clearly states:

Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2136405-why-running-back-by-committee-is-best-for-the-cleveland-browns-in-2014

Why Running Back-by-Committee Is Best for the Cleveland Browns in 2014 By Andrea Hangst, AFC North Lead Writer Jul 22, 2014...

Though Tate may believe that "there's nobody in that (running back) room that scares me," as he said to The Cleveland Plain Dealer in June, West in particular seems to be already pushing Tate for carries.

As Browns.com's Vic Carucci notes, "In fact, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising if [West] ends up winning the starting job or at least getting a significant number of carries in what is expected to be a run-oriented offense," and "West seems like a natural in the Browns' outside-zone-blocking scheme."

That doesn't mean there won't be room for Tate and West—and Lewis, Crowell and Ogbonnaya—to all see playing time once the season starts. In fact, the Browns' stable of running backs seem well suited to the team taking a committee approach at the position.

...

West, meanwhile, is a very promising running back who re-wrote the record books in his senior season at Towson, rushing for 2,509 yards and 41 touchdowns. He has a complementary style to Tate—while both are north-south runners who operate well in an outside-zone-blocking scheme, Tate is more about power while West is about finesse and footwork.

Lewis, too, fits into the plan, with his speed and elusiveness. The only thing endangering his roster spot is how said speed and elusiveness have been affected by the broken leg he suffered in the 2013 preseason and the fact that he was brought in by the previous administration, Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi in particular.

Still, Lewis has a skill set that is different than those of Tate's and West's but yet one that fits the Browns offense. The same can be said for Ogbonnaya, who is a terrific blocker and has good hands to catch passes on third downs. He can also be used as a fullback and on special teams, which increases his overall value and will help secure him a roster spot.

...The need for the "fresh legs" that a running-back-by-committee provides will be even more important for the Browns this year. Last season, with no run game to lean on, the Browns averaged the most pass attempts per game, at 42.6. Though they cycled through three different quarterbacks, those passers had league-leading receiver Josh Gordon to lean on.

...

The Browns will have to rely on their run game this year in ways they did not and could not last year. Though they could manage to do this with Tate or West as their workhorse, it serves the run game's and offense's purposes better to lean on a committee. It both protects their backs' health and helps the rushing attack be more multidimensional.

If nearly every rush was in the hands of Tate or West, defenses would know what to expect. Having three or four—or even five—running backs getting carries depending on the situation or on who has the hot hand gives the Browns an advantage they wouldn't have in the more traditional, one-back-carries-the-load approach.

For what the Browns lack or may lack in the passing game, they do have an embarrassment of riches at the running back position. Maybe one running back eventually emerges as a star, but for now, the plan to split carries between Tate, West, Lewis, Ogbonnaya and perhaps even Crowell would benefit the Browns.

Using those backs in a committee would be the best use of their talents and gives the Browns their best chance to field a competitive offense. And Shanahan, in particular, is the right coach to install such a system and make it work.

 

[Chaka]

Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee. You'd like to have a guy that can carry most of the load, but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

but also be able to alternate guys ... you've got to be able to get fresh legs out there."

You can try to parse it anyway you want but what Browns HC Mike Pettine says is you want to be able to alternate guys and get fresh legs out there.

So can you apparently. Of course you alternate guys, no RB takes 100% of the snaps. Matt Forte led the league with 72% of his teams carries last season.

Could you explain how do you read that any way other than what the head coach of the Cleveland Browns when asked about his running backs and how he plans to use them clearly states:

Key quote from Coach Mike Pettine: "I think in the AFC North, you have to be running back by committee."

A #1 RB doesn't see much more than 60-70% of their team snaps in a given season, every backfield is a RBBC.

ETA: This isn't saying that Tate or Crowell or West will be the #1 back in Cleveland, just that those quotes don't really reveal that much information.

 

[MAC_32]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on. Lewis will get an opportunity to etch out a role early on too. Will he keep it? will he even get it? Probably depends how well Crowell does as much as it does Lewis staying healthy. He wants both Crowell and West to be successful, but he has contingency plans in place in case they are not. If you could draw up a dream scenario it's for both rookies to be successful enough, so they can say bye bye to Tate at season's end then give them an option to re-sign Lewis or go dumpster diving again in next year's draft. Maybe both, so they can come into camp again with 4 bodies back there and as cheaply as possible.

Will it happen?

 

[Bracie Smathers]

The Browns have some talent to choose from, more than just Crowell and West.

The fact a head coach in the national football league used the term running back by committee to describe what he needs to compete in his division when asked how he plans to use his stable of talented backs is more telling than anyone who dismisses the situation or what the head coach says about how he plans to use his backs.

Camp opens soon and we'll finally get to see Crowell and how training camp reps are split and that will go a long way to point the direction going forward.

 

[MAC_32]

Camp opens soon and we'll finally get to see Crowell and how training camp reps are split and that will go a long way to point the direction going forward.

What the Crowell crowd seems to be conveniently ignoring is that he hasn't been on the field at all yet and hasn't played against any real competition since 2011. The reason that's happened is because he is a mental midget.

Talent is one thing. Piecing it together consistently against the best of the best is a completely different story.

 

[cloppbeast]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on.

When did Pettine advocate such a plan?

 

[MAC_32]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on.

When did Pettine advocate such a plan?

Actions > words, connect the dots...

Signed Ben Tate to a 2 year deal, one in which the Browns can cut ties after one year with zero penalty

Then they traded up for a RB on day 2 in front of the rival Ravens despite holes elsewhere on offense

Then they signed the RB with the highest upside of the UDFA lot

All while Lewis, who did some special things last July/August before the unfortunate leg injury, is still under contract

The Browns will only cut Tate if he is a disaster this year (unlikely) or (more realistically) the guy they drafted to be the guy earns his keep over the vet. If West earns the job and a complimentary guy is found among the rest of the pool then the Browns can save a few mil vs. the cap by cutting Tate and targeting other positions next March without impacting the quality of their RB corps.

If West is a bust/doesn't translate his game quickly enough and/or none of the other guys step up then, oh well, they have Tate under contract cheaply for another year. Throw another dart in the draft to try to replace him in 2016.

 

[Chaka]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on.

When did Pettine advocate such a plan?

Actions > words, connect the dots...

Signed Ben Tate to a 2 year deal, one in which the Browns can cut ties after one year with zero penalty

Then they traded up for a RB on day 2 in front of the rival Ravens despite holes elsewhere on offense

Then they signed the RB with the highest upside of the UDFA lot

All while Lewis, who did some special things last July/August before the unfortunate leg injury, is still under contract

The Browns will only cut Tate if he is a disaster this year (unlikely) or (more realistically) the guy they drafted to be the guy earns his keep over the vet. If West earns the job and a complimentary guy is found among the rest of the pool then the Browns can save a few mil vs. the cap by cutting Tate and targeting other positions next March without impacting the quality of their RB corps.

If West is a bust/doesn't translate his game quickly enough and/or none of the other guys step up then, oh well, they have Tate under contract cheaply for another year. Throw another dart in the draft to try to replace him in 2016.

Well I am pretty sure they action of paying Tate $2.5 million dollars guaranteed (plus $46,750 for every game he is active this year) means they want him to start ahead of, and play more than, the rookies or incumbents this year.

I don't care about next year.

 

[MAC_32]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on.

When did Pettine advocate such a plan?

Actions > words, connect the dots...

Signed Ben Tate to a 2 year deal, one in which the Browns can cut ties after one year with zero penalty

Then they traded up for a RB on day 2 in front of the rival Ravens despite holes elsewhere on offense

Then they signed the RB with the highest upside of the UDFA lot

All while Lewis, who did some special things last July/August before the unfortunate leg injury, is still under contract

The Browns will only cut Tate if he is a disaster this year (unlikely) or (more realistically) the guy they drafted to be the guy earns his keep over the vet. If West earns the job and a complimentary guy is found among the rest of the pool then the Browns can save a few mil vs. the cap by cutting Tate and targeting other positions next March without impacting the quality of their RB corps.

If West is a bust/doesn't translate his game quickly enough and/or none of the other guys step up then, oh well, they have Tate under contract cheaply for another year. Throw another dart in the draft to try to replace him in 2016.

Well I am pretty sure they action of paying Tate $2.5 million dollars guaranteed (plus $46,750 for every game he is active this year) means they want him to start ahead of, and play more than, the rookies or incumbents this year.

I don't care about next year.

If it means a decreased workload later in the season you should care if you plan to own Tate.

They can't cut Tate unless they trust the others. Can't trust the others unless they get more work.

And to reiterate...

Will it happen?

...the rest of them could all suck causing Pettine to rely more on Tate than he ever wanted to. Plans this time of year are great and all, but the true tests come when coaches need to adjust.

 

[Chaka]

If Pettine's plan comes to fruition he leans on Tate early then transitions to West as the season goes on.

When did Pettine advocate such a plan?

Actions > words, connect the dots...

Signed Ben Tate to a 2 year deal, one in which the Browns can cut ties after one year with zero penalty

Then they traded up for a RB on day 2 in front of the rival Ravens despite holes elsewhere on offense

Then they signed the RB with the highest upside of the UDFA lot

All while Lewis, who did some special things last July/August before the unfortunate leg injury, is still under contract

The Browns will only cut Tate if he is a disaster this year (unlikely) or (more realistically) the guy they drafted to be the guy earns his keep over the vet. If West earns the job and a complimentary guy is found among the rest of the pool then the Browns can save a few mil vs. the cap by cutting Tate and targeting other positions next March without impacting the quality of their RB corps.

If West is a bust/doesn't translate his game quickly enough and/or none of the other guys step up then, oh well, they have Tate under contract cheaply for another year. Throw another dart in the draft to try to replace him in 2016.

Well I am pretty sure they action of paying Tate $2.5 million dollars guaranteed (plus $46,750 for every game he is active this year) means they want him to start ahead of, and play more than, the rookies or incumbents this year.

I don't care about next year.

If it means a decreased workload later in the season you should care if you plan to own Tate.

They can't cut Tate unless they trust the others. Can't trust the others unless they get more work.

And to reiterate...

Will it happen?

...the rest of them could all suck causing Pettine to rely more on Tate than he ever wanted to. Plans this time of year are great and all, but the true tests come when coaches need to adjust.

Yes but "Pettine's plan" as you are calling it is not to have to reduce Tate's workload as the season progresses. It may play out that way but the contracts suggest that the plan is to utilize Tate as the lead back all season.

 

[MAC_32]

So if Tate is the lead back all year then how can the Browns move on from him after the season?

It's a team option, they have all the control, but they need to know who their guys are if they aren't going to exercise it. Only way to find out is by giving them touches. He isn't going to start the year leaning on the kids more, so if he is going to lean on them more it will be later.