What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Terrell Suggs (1 Viewer)

Wow... that is awful. Do they have a decent replacement in house or might they be looking to make a trade? I would think that the Ravens are a team in serious contention for the Super Bowl and they might be willing to make a move to try and cover this injury.

 
:bye: Not wishing bad on anyone but the rest of the AFC North gotta be feeling just a little better this morning.

I know a lot of guys cross train especially elite athletes but damn, that sucks.

 
'beer 30 said:
:bye: Not wishing bad on anyone but the rest of the AFC North gotta be feeling just a little better this morning.I know a lot of guys cross train especially elite athletes but damn, that sucks.
Click to expand...
Luckily for them Courtney Upshaw fell into their laps. Gives them some flexibility.
 
Next Man up! Sergio Kindle are you there? Upshaw?

Wow. what a blow to the Ravens D. DPOY out. OUCH!

 
Wouldn't go that far....

I know BB isn't exactly riding a motorcycle but teams sure wish their players just spent their offseason in hyperbaric chambers.

 
'Mohawk said:
Next Man up! Sergio Kindle are you there? Upshaw? Wow. what a blow to the Ravens D. DPOY out. OUCH!
Click to expand...
Upshaw was drafted to replace Jarret Johnson from what I have read, which means Kindle just won the lottery (literally), since I read something a couple of weeks back that he was on the roster bubble.Feel bad fo' da' sizzle.
 
Been discussing this injury, its implications for Baltimore, the probable depth chart ripples and continuing my crusade against calling an Achilles injury a career ender on Twitter.

Too much to post here, but you can get to my timeline from the link in my signature below if you're interested.

Quick thoughts: Kruger is more likely to see Suggs-like snaps than Upshaw, the Ravens have to decide whether to lean more 4-3 now possibly and multiple pass rushers have had double digit sack seasons after tearing their Achilles.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
'Jene Bramel said:
Been discussing this injury, its implications for Baltimore, the probable depth chart ripples and continuing my crusade against calling an Achilles injury a career ender on Twitter.Too much to post here, but you can get to my timeline from the link in my signature below if you're interested.Quick thoughts: Kruger is more likely to see Suggs-like snaps than Upshaw, the Ravens have to decide whether to lean more 4-3 now possibly and multiple pass rushers have had double digit sack seasons after tearing their Achilles.
Click to expand...
How many of these were 30/31 years old when they come back from the injury?
 
'NJDawgPound said:
'Jene Bramel said:
Been discussing this injury, its implications for Baltimore, the probable depth chart ripples and continuing my crusade against calling an Achilles injury a career ender on Twitter.Too much to post here, but you can get to my timeline from the link in my signature below if you're interested.Quick thoughts: Kruger is more likely to see Suggs-like snaps than Upshaw, the Ravens have to decide whether to lean more 4-3 now possibly and multiple pass rushers have had double digit sack seasons after tearing their Achilles.
Click to expand...
How many of these were 30/31 years old when they come back from the injury?
Click to expand...
Julian Peterson age 28/29 seasons >>> 19.5 sacksGreg Ellis age 32/33/34 seasons >>> 27 sacksDerrick Burgess age age 28/29 seasons >>> 19.5 sacksI think those are all reasonable comps.
 
'Jene Bramel said:
'NJDawgPound said:
'Jene Bramel said:
Been discussing this injury, its implications for Baltimore, the probable depth chart ripples and continuing my crusade against calling an Achilles injury a career ender on Twitter.Too much to post here, but you can get to my timeline from the link in my signature below if you're interested.Quick thoughts: Kruger is more likely to see Suggs-like snaps than Upshaw, the Ravens have to decide whether to lean more 4-3 now possibly and multiple pass rushers have had double digit sack seasons after tearing their Achilles.
Click to expand...
How many of these were 30/31 years old when they come back from the injury?
Click to expand...
Julian Peterson age 28/29 seasons >>> 19.5 sacksGreg Ellis age 32/33/34 seasons >>> 27 sacksDerrick Burgess age age 28/29 seasons >>> 19.5 sacksI think those are all reasonable comps.
Click to expand...
I think Suggs can come back good, but nowhere near elite.
 
This has to absolutely suck for the Ravens. Suggs was the Raven's most feared player for me as a Steelers fan.

Roethlisberger, Dalton & Weeden just got an early Christmas present.

 
'NJDawgPound said:
'Jene Bramel said:
Been discussing this injury, its implications for Baltimore, the probable depth chart ripples and continuing my crusade against calling an Achilles injury a career ender on Twitter.Too much to post here, but you can get to my timeline from the link in my signature below if you're interested.Quick thoughts: Kruger is more likely to see Suggs-like snaps than Upshaw, the Ravens have to decide whether to lean more 4-3 now possibly and multiple pass rushers have had double digit sack seasons after tearing their Achilles.
Click to expand...
How many of these were 30/31 years old when they come back from the injury?
Click to expand...
My first question too, and just did the math on the guys who Jene twitted...here are the three he listed: Julian Peterson, Derrick Burgess and Greg Ellis...Peterson: Age at injury (26), 10+ sack season (2 years after injury), notes (new team)Derrick Burgess: Age at injury (24), 10+ sack season (3 years after), notes (new team)Greg Ellis: Age at injury (31), 10+ sack season (1 year later), notes (same team)Basically, the Peterson and Burgess are so different, you really cannot compare...they were much younger at time of injury, it took them a couple of years to get a 10+ sack season (years Suggs may not have) and they accomplished this feat on new teams.Now Ellis, on the other hand, mirrors what Suggs "could" do: Roughly the same age, and weight...and he accomplished his 10+ sack season just a year later, so there is some hope. BTW, I am getting this 10+ sack stuff from Jene's twitter line...not sure whether it means success or not, but it is what he's used as a baseline for it.Either way, I am not going to say he is "done", but this does not bode well for his being "dominant" anymore.
 
Suggs texted Ravens beat writer that doctor at site felt tendon may only be partially torn. Go-to NFL foot and ankle specialist Dr. Robert Anderson will examine him and make recommendations soon. Suggs is pinning his hopes for a 6 month rehab and return on the partial tear diagnosis.

 
'Sweet Love said:
Basically, the Peterson and Burgess are so different, you really cannot compare...they were much younger at time of injury, it took them a couple of years to get a 10+ sack season (years Suggs may not have) and they accomplished this feat on new teams....Either way, I am not going to say he is "done", but this does not bode well for his being "dominant" anymore.
Click to expand...
No two Achilles' injuries (and rehabs) are alike unfortunately. And, with respect to the newer microsurgical techniques and accelerated rehab schedules, none of the three of these situations are comparable because each are so relatively dated. But that works in Suggs' favor. I think they're notable in this respect. Two were veteran pass rushers (Burgess was much younger), but all three had an established rep as an "explosive edge rusher." All three recovered enough explosiveness and change of direction to put up elite pass rushing stats over a 2-3 year period.I'm not arguing that it's a sure thing that Suggs returns to full form or that, if he does, he'll do so before 2014. I'm arguing that what's been a common knee jerk response over the past two years -- that a torn Achilles tendon is a near death sentence -- is easily refuted by what I believe to be very reasonable data points.
 
'Jene Bramel said:
I think they're notable in this respect. Two were veteran pass rushers (Burgess was much younger), but all three had an established rep as an "explosive edge rusher." All three recovered enough explosiveness and change of direction to put up elite pass rushing stats over a 2-3 year period.I'm not arguing that it's a sure thing that Suggs returns to full form or that, if he does, he'll do so before 2014. I'm arguing that what's been a common knee jerk response over the past two years -- that a torn Achilles tendon is a near death sentence -- is easily refuted by what I believe to be very reasonable data points.
Click to expand...
He's be 31 by then, or Ellis' age. Now taking away the other 2 guys, the only comp is one guy. That seems like more of an outlier if anything. Maybe it's early to call Suggs done, but it's not unfair to say he's got a huge uphill battle to get back to where he once was.
 
I'm no doctor, but it seems that lately injuries like this or an ACL tear which were once 18 month injuries have become 12 month injuries and if Adrian Peterson and Demaryius Thomas are any indication, maybe 8 month injuries....

 
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'Jene Bramel said:
I think they're notable in this respect. Two were veteran pass rushers (Burgess was much younger), but all three had an established rep as an "explosive edge rusher." All three recovered enough explosiveness and change of direction to put up elite pass rushing stats over a 2-3 year period.

I'm not arguing that it's a sure thing that Suggs returns to full form or that, if he does, he'll do so before 2014. I'm arguing that what's been a common knee jerk response over the past two years -- that a torn Achilles tendon is a near death sentence -- is easily refuted by what I believe to be very reasonable data points.
Click to expand...
He's be 31 by then, or Ellis' age. Now taking away the other 2 guys, the only comp is one guy. That seems like more of an outlier if anything. Maybe it's early to call Suggs done, but it's not unfair to say he's got a huge uphill battle to get back to where he once was.
Click to expand...
I don't think age 31-32 should be considered the age of doom for a defensive end. Quite a few elder statesman on the list of elite football players with double digit sack seasons after age 30. Jared Allen will be 30 this year. So will Demarcus Ware. Neither show signs of slowing down yet. John Abraham has 46 sacks since turning 30 and over 20 since turning 32. Kyle Vanden Bosch had eight sacks at age 33 last year. Joey Porter had almost 30 sacks during his age 31 and 32 seasons. Jason Babin had 18 at age 31 last year. Michael Strahan, Kevin Greene, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Chris Doleman, Richard Dent -- all effective into their mid-30s.

None of those players are post-Achilles. But I'm highlight them to show that -- should Suggs return to form -- elite pass rushers can remain effective into their early and mid 30s.

If you don't buy the Burgess/Peterson comps, which I believe are reasonable for the same age-related reasons we're discussing now, you might also consider Takeo Spikes who has been effective well into his mid-30s after his Achilles tear.

 
'matttyl said:
'Frank Costanza said:
@RavensInsiderTerrell Suggs: ''I went to stop and turn and I thought i sprained it. Went to doc and said it's a partial tear."
Click to expand...
If this is in fact true, Jene, what's his timetable look like for a possible return?
Click to expand...
Entirely dependent on whether surgery is recommended and how significant it is. We're getting a little out of my comfort zone now, but I think it's reasonable to say that the more grafting and reconstruction necessary, the longer the time it'll take to fully heal. If it's a relatively minor tear and surgery isn't recommended, it's still a six month injury to allow full knitting and hopefully reduce the risk of re-rupture at the area of weakness.
 
'Jene Bramel said:
If you don't buy the Burgess/Peterson comps, which I believe are reasonable for the same age-related reasons we're discussing now, you might also consider Takeo Spikes who has been effective well into his mid-30s after his Achilles tear.
Click to expand...
Probably the best comparison is to Spikes since they were close to the same age (29 and 30) at the time of the injury and coming off All-Pro seasons. Spikes returned to have some solid seasons but he wasn't the dominate player prior to the injury.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'Jene Bramel said:
'matttyl said:
'Frank Costanza said:
@RavensInsiderTerrell Suggs: ''I went to stop and turn and I thought i sprained it. Went to doc and said it's a partial tear."
Click to expand...
If this is in fact true, Jene, what's his timetable look like for a possible return?
Click to expand...
Entirely dependent on whether surgery is recommended and how significant it is. We're getting a little out of my comfort zone now, but I think it's reasonable to say that the more grafting and reconstruction necessary, the longer the time it'll take to fully heal. If it's a relatively minor tear and surgery isn't recommended, it's still a six month injury to allow full knitting and hopefully reduce the risk of re-rupture at the area of weakness.
Click to expand...
For him to even play in the playoffs it's only 8 months away, I don't see that happening. Leshoure is a 21 yo kid and people are concerned that he won't be a ready a year after his injury.
 
'Jene Bramel said:
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'Jene Bramel said:
I think they're notable in this respect. Two were veteran pass rushers (Burgess was much younger), but all three had an established rep as an "explosive edge rusher." All three recovered enough explosiveness and change of direction to put up elite pass rushing stats over a 2-3 year period.

I'm not arguing that it's a sure thing that Suggs returns to full form or that, if he does, he'll do so before 2014. I'm arguing that what's been a common knee jerk response over the past two years -- that a torn Achilles tendon is a near death sentence -- is easily refuted by what I believe to be very reasonable data points.
Click to expand...
He's be 31 by then, or Ellis' age. Now taking away the other 2 guys, the only comp is one guy. That seems like more of an outlier if anything. Maybe it's early to call Suggs done, but it's not unfair to say he's got a huge uphill battle to get back to where he once was.
Click to expand...
I don't think age 31-32 should be considered the age of doom for a defensive end. Quite a few elder statesman on the list of elite football players with double digit sack seasons after age 30. Jared Allen will be 30 this year. So will Demarcus Ware. Neither show signs of slowing down yet. John Abraham has 46 sacks since turning 30 and over 20 since turning 32. Kyle Vanden Bosch had eight sacks at age 33 last year. Joey Porter had almost 30 sacks during his age 31 and 32 seasons. Jason Babin had 18 at age 31 last year. Michael Strahan, Kevin Greene, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Chris Doleman, Richard Dent -- all effective into their mid-30s.

None of those players are post-Achilles. But I'm highlight them to show that -- should Suggs return to form -- elite pass rushers can remain effective into their early and mid 30s.

If you don't buy the Burgess/Peterson comps, which I believe are reasonable for the same age-related reasons we're discussing now, you might also consider Takeo Spikes who has been effective well into his mid-30s after his Achilles tear.
Click to expand...
Just want to throw this out there, Jene, since you brought it up with the sacks: Why is a "sack" a measure of goodness for a defensive player? T.J. Duckett, Karim-Abdul Jabbar and countless others have been less than stout RBs, but have been leaders in TDs...we call them "vultures" since they add little value besides the TD...I find it interesting (not mentioned Suggs since he did have 70 tackles to go along with his sacks), that we praise the sack specialist and not the TD specialist...they are one in the same, and honestly, if Suggs came back in 2013 and went for 30 tackles and 10 sacks, I would look at that as a failure, compared to a "comeback" year of 55 tackles and 8 sacks.

 
Not to turn selfish here, but FF implications.

Increase in value:

-Andy Dalton

-AJ Green/Sanu/M. Jones/Gresham/BJGE

-Weeden

-TRich/Little/Watson

-Flacco

-Rice/T. Smith/Boldin/Pitta

That's 2 games a year when they don't have to play a full strength(lets just definite at that for now) Suggs. Plus Ray Lewis/Reed are older.

 
'Sweet Love said:
'Jene Bramel said:
'Raiderfan32904 said:
'Jene Bramel said:
I think they're notable in this respect. Two were veteran pass rushers (Burgess was much younger), but all three had an established rep as an "explosive edge rusher." All three recovered enough explosiveness and change of direction to put up elite pass rushing stats over a 2-3 year period.

I'm not arguing that it's a sure thing that Suggs returns to full form or that, if he does, he'll do so before 2014. I'm arguing that what's been a common knee jerk response over the past two years -- that a torn Achilles tendon is a near death sentence -- is easily refuted by what I believe to be very reasonable data points.
Click to expand...
He's be 31 by then, or Ellis' age. Now taking away the other 2 guys, the only comp is one guy. That seems like more of an outlier if anything. Maybe it's early to call Suggs done, but it's not unfair to say he's got a huge uphill battle to get back to where he once was.
Click to expand...
I don't think age 31-32 should be considered the age of doom for a defensive end. Quite a few elder statesman on the list of elite football players with double digit sack seasons after age 30. Jared Allen will be 30 this year. So will Demarcus Ware. Neither show signs of slowing down yet. John Abraham has 46 sacks since turning 30 and over 20 since turning 32. Kyle Vanden Bosch had eight sacks at age 33 last year. Joey Porter had almost 30 sacks during his age 31 and 32 seasons. Jason Babin had 18 at age 31 last year. Michael Strahan, Kevin Greene, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Jason Taylor, Chris Doleman, Richard Dent -- all effective into their mid-30s.

None of those players are post-Achilles. But I'm highlight them to show that -- should Suggs return to form -- elite pass rushers can remain effective into their early and mid 30s.

If you don't buy the Burgess/Peterson comps, which I believe are reasonable for the same age-related reasons we're discussing now, you might also consider Takeo Spikes who has been effective well into his mid-30s after his Achilles tear.
Click to expand...
Just want to throw this out there, Jene, since you brought it up with the sacks: Why is a "sack" a measure of goodness for a defensive player? T.J. Duckett, Karim-Abdul Jabbar and countless others have been less than stout RBs, but have been leaders in TDs...we call them "vultures" since they add little value besides the TD...I find it interesting (not mentioned Suggs since he did have 70 tackles to go along with his sacks), that we praise the sack specialist and not the TD specialist...they are one in the same, and honestly, if Suggs came back in 2013 and went for 30 tackles and 10 sacks, I would look at that as a failure, compared to a "comeback" year of 55 tackles and 8 sacks.
Click to expand...
TD vultures mainly have a bad rap because this is a fantasy site. Tommy Vardell actually held a lot of value to the Lions since he could punch in TD's that Sanders couldn't. I'd say NFL teams still value them considering the contract Tolbert got. As for the value of sacks, I think they are over-rated but it is indicative of pressure put on the QB. Sacks are nice but I'd rather have a DE who gets zero sacks but disrupts every pass play. AFAIK, there aren't any statistics on passes disrupted so sacks is the closest measuring stick.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
'cstu said:
For him to even play in the playoffs it's only 8 months away, I don't see that happening. Leshoure is a 21 yo kid and people are concerned that he won't be a ready a year after his injury.
Click to expand...
and Demaryius Thomas was playing roughly 9 months after his. Though he also is much younger than Suggs.
 
'benson_will_lead_the_way said:
Not to turn selfish here, but FF implications.

Increase in value:

-Andy Dalton

-AJ Green/Sanu/M. Jones/Gresham/BJGE

-Weeden

-TRich/Little/Watson

-Flacco

-Rice/T. Smith/Boldin/Pitta

That's 2 games a year when they don't have to play a full strength(lets just definite at that for now) Suggs. Plus Ray Lewis/Reed are older.
Click to expand...
Ok, I get the first few names for those 2 games only, but why did you add the Ravens as well? If anything, Opposing offenses will be on the field more cause the Ravens defense is theoretically weaker. Wouldn't that lead to less pass attempts and rushing attempts?
 
'matttyl said:
'cstu said:
For him to even play in the playoffs it's only 8 months away, I don't see that happening. Leshoure is a 21 yo kid and people are concerned that he won't be a ready a year after his injury.
Click to expand...
and Demaryius Thomas was playing roughly 9 months after his. Though he also is much younger than Suggs.
Click to expand...
Thomas didn't contribute much until December, 10 months after. Suggs could return by the playoffs but I have to question how effective he will be with such a short recovery time.
 
IF it is a partial tear or surgery isn't required or whatever (basically, if it isn't season-ending), what the thoughts on how the organization would handle it? Do you guys think they would bring him back as soon as possible or would they be more inclined to take a more cautious approach?

 
'cstu said:
As for the value of sacks, I think they are over-rated but it is indicative of pressure put on the QB. Sacks are nice but I'd rather have a DE who gets zero sacks but disrupts every pass play. AFAIK, there aren't any statistics on passes disrupted so sacks is the closest measuring stick.
Click to expand...
Suggs is far from one dimensional - he wrecks a lot of plays without sacks and has become a really good run defender.
 
'matttyl said:
'benson_will_lead_the_way said:
Not to turn selfish here, but FF implications.

Increase in value:

-Andy Dalton

-AJ Green/Sanu/M. Jones/Gresham/BJGE

-Weeden

-TRich/Little/Watson

-Flacco

-Rice/T. Smith/Boldin/Pitta

That's 2 games a year when they don't have to play a full strength(lets just definite at that for now) Suggs. Plus Ray Lewis/Reed are older.
Click to expand...
Ok, I get the first few names for those 2 games only, but why did you add the Ravens as well? If anything, Opposing offenses will be on the field more cause the Ravens defense is theoretically weaker. Wouldn't that lead to less pass attempts and rushing attempts?
Click to expand...
Haha, I blanked and added the Ravens instead of the Steelers. But actually...maybe the Ravens won't be in the lead as often and might have to pass more. Who knows.
 
'Sweet Love said:
Just want to throw this out there, Jene, since you brought it up with the sacks: Why is a "sack" a measure of goodness for a defensive player? T.J. Duckett, Karim-Abdul Jabbar and countless others have been less than stout RBs, but have been leaders in TDs...we call them "vultures" since they add little value besides the TD...I find it interesting (not mentioned Suggs since he did have 70 tackles to go along with his sacks), that we praise the sack specialist and not the TD specialist...they are one in the same, and honestly, if Suggs came back in 2013 and went for 30 tackles and 10 sacks, I would look at that as a failure, compared to a "comeback" year of 55 tackles and 8 sacks.
Click to expand...
The concern with an Achilles injury is loss of explosiveness and range of motion. For a defensive player, that translates to concerns about the suddenness of the first step, the ability to play with leverage, the ability to move laterally and the ability to change direction. Specifically for a pass rusher, it translates to getting off the ball, engaging a lineman, dipping and turning the corner and adjusting the line of the pass rush if the quarterback climbs the pocket.I chose sacks as a measure and the comps I did because I think Suggs' primary value is in his pass rush. Not that he's not valuable for his run-stuffing ability or athleticism in dropping into coverage (rarely), but it's his ability to impact the pocket that makes him so valuable. I agree that it'll be a loss to the team if he drops to a 40-12 player instead of a 55-12 player, but I'm not sure that many other fans or media members would make the same distinction we would.
 
'cstu said:
'matttyl said:
'cstu said:
For him to even play in the playoffs it's only 8 months away, I don't see that happening. Leshoure is a 21 yo kid and people are concerned that he won't be a ready a year after his injury.
Click to expand...
and Demaryius Thomas was playing roughly 9 months after his. Though he also is much younger than Suggs.
Click to expand...
Thomas didn't contribute much until December, 10 months after. Suggs could return by the playoffs but I have to question how effective he will be with such a short recovery time.
Click to expand...
The shorter recovery time is based on the possibility that the tear is partial and won't require reconstructive surgery. A six month rehab is much more of a possibility if extensive surgery isn't necessary. Otherwise, it would be extremely difficult to expect him to return before the playoffs.
 
'Sweet Love said:
'Mohawk said:
Next Man up! Sergio Kindle are you there? Upshaw? Wow. what a blow to the Ravens D. DPOY out. OUCH!
Click to expand...
Upshaw was drafted to replace Jarret Johnson from what I have read, which means Kindle just won the lottery (literally), since I read something a couple of weeks back that he was on the roster bubble.Feel bad fo' da' sizzle.
Click to expand...
I honestly didnt know Kindle was still on a NFL roster, let alone the team that drafted him. Havent heard anything about him since the endless staircase incident. I liked him coming out of college, but no clue how I should feel about him now. I guess if he might not have made the roster, that says all you need to know. Then again, he's still been making the roster the last few years.They would definitely be much worse off had they not been able to get (or passed on) Upshaw, but who knows what kind of player or impact he makes as rookie. Luckily for him and the Ravens, being a pass rushing specialist is probably the easiest position to just come into the NFL and play. That said, he's still a rookie and he fell to the 2nd round for a reason.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
Fantasy stats that surprised you.
Replies
49
Views
4K
Hot Sauce Guy
Hot Sauce Guy
Hot Sauce Guy
My Experience With NFC Rotowire Online Championship Leagues
Replies
11
Views
2K
Hot Sauce Guy
Hot Sauce Guy
T
My final 2022 mock draft, 3 rounds
2
Replies
56
Views
5K
travdogg
T

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top