The Birther Conspiracy Thread (2 Viewers)

[bueno]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Well we've been in an economic ####storm since before he was elected.I believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots in any conspiracy related to his personal history. It's all they have on him. There were conspiracies related to GWB and Clinton's personal histories as well, but by and large those were well earned.

Clinton and Bush ran drugs were a well earned conspiracies? Clinton body count was a well earned conspiracy? Bush plotting 9-11 was a well-earned conspiracy? Please, this birther 'conspiracy' is tame compared to the crap which was thrown at Bush and Clinton. Obama has gotten an easy ride if the situation surrounding his birth is all they have. Obama's ties to radical leftists throughout his life is a much more interesting conspiracy. I would like to see those developed some more.

Monica Lewinski?

 

[Bronco Billy]

You think he put "female" on there?

No. Odd that you'd consider this a possibility, though.

Just curious what your suspicion is. He IS black. What might he have put?

I prefer to see the truth than to continue guessing. But it seems that to some questioning our politicians is out-of-bounds - conveniently dependent upon party affiliation, and there are certainly reasonable questions about this man's past.

OK so nothing.

I understand you & your political allies not wanting anyone digging around in Obama's past. The embarrassment of getting a black Dem finally elected President and then having him turn out to be a fraud would be a supreme disgrace and set the Dems back a long ways on the national stage. The same goes for the LSM media who overtly refused to do their jobs and do some digging on this guy instead of giving him a carte blanche pass.But that doesn't preclude the American people from asking questions when there are documented inconsistencies in what he said and wrote that his past was, and when documentation of actual events turn out to be otherwise - especially since he has announced a re-election run. American have a obligation to ask questions of our politicians.

Actually, if Obama's supporters are so certain that he has been candidly forthcoming about past events in his life you would think that they would actually welcome the questions being asking rather than resorting to Alinski-ite methods for discouraging the questioners.

Yeah this all just baloney. Inconsistencies! Fraud! Nothing he could ever release would ever satisfy you, as long as there was nothing there. It would still be what about this? What about that? ad nauseum. What a snore.Sour grapes. All it boils down to IMO.

It's only racist because it's all you guys have. If only he was a shady philanderer like Bill, or a silver spoon draft dodger like GW.

Thanks for providing such eloquent support to my point.I especially love the draft-dodging W part given this President's background.

Well done.

 

[timschochet]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Americans inherently don't trust government. Conspiracies theories about every president exist. FDR knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor but let it happen. He was one of the most beloved Presidents of all time, and yet people hold on to that theory to this day. There is no evidence that this is a racial issue outside of your belief that it is.

Well, I have to make a slight correction here. FDR was absolutely hated by a certain segment of the population, and it is this same group that believed and accepted the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory. As to the issue of race and the Birthers, believe what you want. I've already given you my reasons for what I believe, and you're welcome to accept them or disregard them as you choose.

 

[matuski]

I think this may be the earliest onset of Reelection Sour Grapes we've ever seen.

 

[JZilla]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Well we've been in an economic ####storm since before he was elected.I believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots in any conspiracy related to his personal history. It's all they have on him. There were conspiracies related to GWB and Clinton's personal histories as well, but by and large those were well earned.

A distinction should be made between the nature of the conspiracy and the level of growth of the conspiracy. You and I agree that the nature of this conspiracy has to do with Obama's name and race. But what causes a conspiracy to grow? Take a look at the four largest modern American conspiracies before this one:1. FDR knew about or plotted Pearl Harbor.2. JFK was assassinated by the U.S. government.3. Vince Foster was assassinated by Bill or Hillary Clinton4. Bush knew about 9/11 beforehand, or planned it. What distinguishes all of these conspiracies from the Birther movement is that they all involve a sudden and shocking event: the event happens, a rational explanation is given, and then the conspiracy begins as people challenge that explanation. Inconsistencies are brought up, and alternative theories are established. This has been the traditional pattern for conspiracies. But the Birther movement has no such sudden and shocking event: this makes it rather unique. It's pattern of growth is also somewhat unique as well. Prior to Obama's election, the general public was largely unaware of questions about his birth. Some people involved in politics did bring this up, but as a general issue it went unnoticed. Within 6 months after his election, it was a national story. Within a year after his election, 40% of Republicans believed him to be born outside of the United States- still a stunning number of people within so short of time and lacking any information whatsoever. And we still don't know if those numbers have changed at all with Obama releasing the long form.

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

 

[Christo]

It could still be "factually untrue." They could have found a doctor to lie for them. See how this works? Following your thinking, the long form is meaningless unless we can prove the doctor wasn't lying. The fact that you are now satisfied simply because you've seen a signature doesn't mean that you weren't being unreasonable in not accepting the short form.

It was always known that a source document existed which established the fact. I really don't see what was unreasonable in asking for that. It is about 1000 times more likely that a family member would lie about a birth to obtain benefits from being a citizen than a doctor who would risk his medical license for such an act. The long form with a doctor's or nurse's signature provides enormous credibility to the facts. You are not being too honest if you don't acknowledge that.

You characterize it how you want. I'll put my credibility up against yours any day of the week.

It is how I characterized it from day 1. We knew a document existed, but yet it wasn't provided. We heard numerous stories from the state of Hawaii on whether the document still existed or not and whether it was archived or not. We heard a couple stories from which hospital he was born in. We had a media which falsely insisted the document was already released and there was nothing else. The inconsistencies and misleading spin raised enough questions to me that something was not right. Sure most people were satisfied with the short form, but enough of the people were not it should have been something that was dealt with a long time ago. You didn't see anything from me insisting Obama was born in Kenya or the state documents were forged. I acknowledged all along that Obama was most likely born in Hawaii and all the released documents were accurate.

:whoosh:

 

[jon_mx]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Well we've been in an economic ####storm since before he was elected.I believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots in any conspiracy related to his personal history. It's all they have on him. There were conspiracies related to GWB and Clinton's personal histories as well, but by and large those were well earned.

Clinton and Bush ran drugs were a well earned conspiracies? Clinton body count was a well earned conspiracy? Bush plotting 9-11 was a well-earned conspiracy? Please, this birther 'conspiracy' is tame compared to the crap which was thrown at Bush and Clinton. Obama has gotten an easy ride if the situation surrounding his birth is all they have. Obama's ties to radical leftists throughout his life is a much more interesting conspiracy. I would like to see those developed some more.

Monica Lewinski?

I think it is a pretty well established fact that Clinton slept with every big-haired floozie he could. Not a conspiracy, but that make having a body count a well deserved conspiracy.

 

[timschochet]

The 9th Circuit is actually going to review this issue tommorow:

A Ramona attorney will go into the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Monday to continue questioning whether President Barack Obama is a United States citizen, in spite of the release of the president's long-form birth certificate this week.

Gary Kreep is executive director of the nonprofit United States Justice Foundation in Ramona. He confirmed for Patch that he is due to appear in the court in Pasadena on Monday morning. He will be joined in the litigation by an attorney who is also a Mission Viejo dentist and Rancho Santa Margarita resident—Orly Taitz. Taitz says she will continue to ask the courts to decide the legitimacy of the president.

 

[Bronco Billy]

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

Full tilt? OkayIt's always interesting to see the Obots go to either the race card or the W card when people ask hard questions about their guy.

 

[JZilla]

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

Full tilt? OkayIt's always interesting to see the Obots go to either the race card or the W card when people ask hard questions about their guy.

Simply comparing these types of personal history conspiracy theories, I think most people caught that.

 

[Bronco Billy]

How do we know you are, in fact, American? I think a passport, birth certificate, SS#, and a picture matching said passport where you are standing on your hands with one of your hands in a chocolate cream pie is in order.

So you'll accept any story when it comes to questions about a President - provided he's a Dem of course - but now there is a criteria that you require for being able to ask questions? How enlightened.

 

[jon_mx]

I understand you & your political allies not wanting anyone digging around in Obama's past. The embarrassment of getting a black Dem finally elected President and then having him turn out to be a fraud would be a supreme disgrace and set the Dems back a long ways on the national stage. The same goes for the LSM media who overtly refused to do their jobs and do some digging on this guy instead of giving him a carte blanche pass.

But that doesn't preclude the American people from asking questions when there are documented inconsistencies in what he said and wrote that his past was, and when documentation of actual events turn out to be otherwise - especially since he has announced a re-election run. American have a obligation to ask questions of our politicians.

Actually, if Obama's supporters are so certain that he has been candidly forthcoming about past events in his life you would think that they would actually welcome the questions being asking rather than resorting to Alinski-ite methods for discouraging the questioners.

How do we know you are, in fact, American? I think a passport, birth certificate, SS#, and a picture matching said passport where you are standing on your hands with one of your hands in a chocolate cream pie is in order.

I have seen Bronco wear a flag pin and put his hand on his heart during the national anthem. He was also able to correctly identify that the US has 50 states. Good enough for me.

 

[mad sweeney]

What do you mean by distancing? All I ever asked for was if there was some third party verification in the records which established Obama was born there. And now that that was finally released, the issue is over.

You are one sorry, self deluded mess jonnay. Do they keep baby pictures in those records? How about witnesses and statements from friends? Are those in the records? Cuz you spent plenty of time asking for those too. On top of all the things you were "positive" or "absolutely convinced" about. Now you want to minimize and diminish your zeal on the topic? "All I ever asked for..." what a joke! PS No one's buying it from you either jon, just so you know since your self delusion is so thorough, I wasn't sure if you would catch that. HTH

You are the biggest #######. It was not an AND but an OR. I would have accepted anything which established Obama was in Hawaii during that time.

See you after your vacation!

 

[timschochet]

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

Full tilt? OkayIt's always interesting to see the Obots go to either the race card or the W card when people ask hard questions about their guy.

What hard question have you asked in this thread?

 

[jon_mx]

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

Full tilt? OkayIt's always interesting to see the Obots go to either the race card or the W card when people ask hard questions about their guy.

Simply comparing these types of personal history conspiracy theories, I think most people caught that.

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

 

[JZilla]

It's definitely unique, and I don't think it's comparable to those kinds of conspiracy theories. It is more comparable to grumblings about Clinton's and GWB's pasts, such as GWB as a draft dodger, which as you can see just bringing that up has Bronco Billy on full tilt.

Full tilt? OkayIt's always interesting to see the Obots go to either the race card or the W card when people ask hard questions about their guy.

Simply comparing these types of personal history conspiracy theories, I think most people caught that.

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

Those arguments are so lame you're simply proving my point. Not knowing the number of states That old standby!So desperate. So sour.

 

[Bronco Billy]

How do we know you are, in fact, American? I think a passport, birth certificate, SS#, and a picture matching said passport where you are standing on your hands with one of your hands in a chocolate cream pie is in order.

So you'll accept any story when it comes to questions about a President - provided he's a Dem of course - but now there is a criteria that you require for being able to ask questions? How enlightened.

So you fear this vetting process?What do you have to hide?

And so the Alinski-ite nonsense continues.

 

[timschochet]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

 

[Fennis]

It's going to be a long 5 1/2+ years for a lot of you.

 

[JZilla]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Just bad excuses for the ethnic bashing. Jon knows that Obama knows how many states there are, and he knows exactly where that misstatement came from. He's been smacked around on this issue, and others listed here, dozens of times on this very board. He enjoys it. He likes dragging other people into the mud with him. There's no endgame here, it's just the same old tossings.

 

[jon_mx]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

 

[timschochet]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. What "same kind of arguments"? Against whom are these arguments being made?

 

[The Commish]

What do you mean by distancing? All I ever asked for was if there was some third party verification in the records which established Obama was born there. And now that that was finally released, the issue is over.

So you're happy with the form shown even though anyone and everyone can just walk down and have a BC issued in Hawaii? Him showing this long form does nothing to change the laws in Hawaii. Not sure why an official doc from such a lax state now satisfies you. Remember, Obama originally released a doc that didn't satisfy you and it was based on the doc that satisfies you.

Unlike the short form, the long form showed a doctor's signature. Prior to this it was quite possible that the only thing which established Obama being born in Hawaii was a statement from his family. This is the source documentation. The short form is meaningless unless you know what it is based upon. If it was just mom or grandma saying that he was born there, it could have been factually untrue. I am really not sure what is so hard to comprehend.

Prove to me that the doctor's sig is legit See how this goes?? It's absurd to question this single instance of the document. They'd done millions of these things over the years, yet I don't hear people clamoring to "prove" folks in Hawaii are citizens. It was dumb.

 

[Christo]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

Yes, not wearing a flag pin is a perfectly acceptable reason to question someone's patriotism and certainly proves the loon who's using the argument isn't a racist.

 

[Christo]

I guess we're just going to have to teach him to wear the ribbon!

 

[jon_mx]

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

To be serious for a second, there is a vast difference between broadly characterizing an ideological or political group and a racial or ethnic one.The political viewpoints which one chooses to espouse and the candidates which one chooses to support are personal and individual decisions which one should rightly be held to account for, for good or for ill. The racial or ethnic group which one happens to belong to is a matter of historical accident.One may not find that one's beliefs match up exactly with those of one's political bedfellows but it is certainly more fair to paint with broad strokes when dealing with these groupings than it is by one's racial/ethnic/gender identity.

That is fair point, but I still get beaten up if I ever say, "Liberals are....." There are numerous reasons why people dislike Obama, and his being black is way down the list. The number of votes Obama got illustrates it was not really a racist thing. He got about the same number as if he were white. I really don't see anything that is unique about this birther issue. People are going to believe negative things about a President they don't like. I see dragging racism into this is a cheap political ploy which has no basis in fact.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Prove to me that the doctor's sig is legit See how this goes?? It's absurd to question this single instance of the document. They'd done millions of these things over the years, yet I don't hear people clamoring to "prove" folks in Hawaii are citizens. It was dumb.

I must have missed the Constitutional requirement that people living in Hawaii had to prove that they were naturally born Hawaiians. Perhaps you could cite that for me.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

To be serious for a second, there is a vast difference between broadly characterizing an ideological or political group and a racial or ethnic one.The political viewpoints which one chooses to espouse and the candidates which one chooses to support are personal and individual decisions which one should rightly be held to account for, for good or for ill. The racial or ethnic group which one happens to belong to is a matter of historical accident.One may not find that one's beliefs match up exactly with those of one's political bedfellows but it is certainly more fair to paint with broad strokes when dealing with these groupings than it is by one's racial/ethnic/gender identity.

That is fair point, but I still get beaten up if I ever say, "Liberals are....." There are numerous reasons why people dislike Obama, and his being black is way down the list. The number of votes Obama got illustrates it was not really a racist thing. He got about the same number as if he were white. I really don't see anything that is unique about this birther issue. People are going to believe negative things about a President they don't like. I see dragging racism into this is a cheap political ploy which has no basis in fact.

You answered your own question. It's because there ARE legitimate reasons to dislike or criticize Obama, that when an illegitimate argument like the Birther movement comes along, it causes people to wonder, why this one? Why does this issue seem to take hold with so many people?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Chutzpah to put your greatest fear right in your sig, btw."The only people who don't wanna disclose the truth are those with somethin' to hide"

Greatest fear.

 

[jon_mx]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

Yes, not wearing a flag pin is a perfectly acceptable reason to question someone's patriotism and certainly proves the loon who's using the argument isn't a racist.

And if someone states you are a commie, how do you go about disproving that? Dragging racism into a debate is about as beneficial as dragging Nazism or Communism into it. It is non-productive and pointless and has no basis in fact. Is is all hyperbole non-sense based upon biased political leanings of the poster.

 

[Christo]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

Yes, not wearing a flag pin is a perfectly acceptable reason to question someone's patriotism and certainly proves the loon who's using the argument isn't a racist.

And if someone states you are a commie, how do you go about disproving that? Dragging racism into a debate is about as beneficial as dragging Nazism or Communism into it. It is non-productive and pointless and has no basis in fact. Is is all hyperbole non-sense based upon biased political leanings of the poster.

No basis in fact? Do we have a head in the sand smilie?And comparing racism to Nazism and Communism in 2011? Could you come up with a bigger red herring?The only person who's talking nonsense is the person who wants to ignore racism.

 

[timschochet]

Dragging racism into a debate is about as beneficial as dragging Nazism or Communism into it. It is non-productive and pointless and has no basis in fact. Is is all hyperbolic non-sense based upon biased political leanings of the poster.

You've made this point several times. There are two problems with it, IMO:1. Denying racism in any given situation may also be based upon "biased political leanings of the poster." In fact, it usually is. 2. But more important than that is honest opinion. I've been accused lately of "dragging racism" into issues. But when I do it, I believe it exists. Using your argument, we should simply ignore racism where it exists because to point it out is "non-productive and pointless." I say call it out when you think it exists. If you don't think it exists, then challenge it. But your position would limit discussion. I understand that there are reasonable people in this forum who do not believe that the Birther movement is at all related to racism. Yankee23fan, a poster I really respect, has made this argument; he has brought up the example of Chester Arthur. I think that is a very weak argument, and to be honest I have trouble understanding these people. To me there is no way to rationally study this moment and fail to conclude that racism and identity issues aren't at the core.

 

[jon_mx]

You answered your own question. It's because there ARE legitimate reasons to dislike or criticize Obama, that when an illegitimate argument like the Birther movement comes along, it causes people to wonder, why this one? Why does this issue seem to take hold with so many people?

Because of the reasons I stated above. People bought into the argument that Obama does not love this country. Listening to Jeremiah Wright saying G-D America is another example. Palling around with Ayres is another. Ideas of Obama not loving America and wanting to turn us into this wealth-redistribution state stuck, so conspiracies of Obama being born somewhere else fits nicely into all of that.

 

[jon_mx]

Obama gave us plenty of reasons for voters to questions his loyalties to this country. Not wearing a flag pin, not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem, sympathizing with Gitmo prisoners, not knowing the number of states, attacking Americans as clinging to their bibles and guns, etc. Questioning his citizenship is a logical extension and was brought on by himself, not his race or 'nationality'.

I wrote in another thread that some liberals use race as a means to shut down opposition, and that it's despicable when this happens. I also wrote that some conservatives use patriotism and loyalty to America in the exact same manner, and that it was equally despicable. In this post jon has provided us with an almost perfect example of the latter.

Tim, I was giving examples as to why it wasn't a necessarily racism behind it. Yes conservatives use patriotism against liberals quite a bit and Obama is no exception. But that is different than being motivated by race, which was my point. You can throw out bull#### statements about how a large group of people are motivated by race and then hide behind it by just stating it only your opinion. If people made the same kind of arguments against blacks or Hispanics or gays or Muslims that you made here you would start a thread about how appalled you are.

Yes, not wearing a flag pin is a perfectly acceptable reason to question someone's patriotism and certainly proves the loon who's using the argument isn't a racist.

And if someone states you are a commie, how do you go about disproving that? Dragging racism into a debate is about as beneficial as dragging Nazism or Communism into it. It is non-productive and pointless and has no basis in fact. Is is all hyperbole non-sense based upon biased political leanings of the poster.

No basis in fact? Do we have a head in the sand smilie?And comparing racism to Nazism and Communism in 2011? Could you come up with a bigger red herring?The only person who's talking nonsense is the person who wants to ignore racism.

Well then prove racism is the driving force here. The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something. There is very little positive evidence that shows racism, the argument is mostly based upon you don't see any other reason so it must be racism. That is a lame reason to lay down a charge as serious as racism.

 

[Christo]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

 

[jon_mx]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

 

[timschochet]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

He has. Several times.

 

[Christo]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

 

[jon_mx]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

 

[Christo]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

His mother is American. He had access to all of that.

 

[timschochet]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

 

[matuski]

Lots of people not handling this very well.

This is what it looks like when a group of posters spend 30+ pages with all their eggs in one basket, only to have the rug pulled out from under them in one simple move. Backpedal!!!!

 

[Christo]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

But of course. Every little mixed-race kid born in 1961 had the dream of one day growing up to be POTUS.

 

[jon_mx]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

Maybe his racist grandma did not want a Kenyan as a grandchild or even worse a Canadian or a Brit.

 

[Christo]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

Maybe his racist grandma did not want a Kenyan as a grandchild or even worse a Canadian or a Brit.

Pathetic

 

[jon_mx]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

Maybe his racist grandma did not want a Kenyan as a grandchild or even worse a Canadian or a Brit.

Pathetic

Obama is the one who threw Grandma under thebus as a racist.

 

[urbanhack]

The logic that racism drove in this topic is less compelling than the argument that Obama was hiding something.

Wrong.

Well that makes it compelling.

If you can answer a question, maybe I'll continue in here.What reason did Obama's mother & grandparents have for lying about his place of birth?

Access to state health care, schools, and other benefits of being a US citizens.

Obama didn't need to be born here to be a U.S. citizen. His mother was a U.S. citizen, so he would have become one no matter where he was born. Whether or not he would have been eligible for POTUS, had he been born elsewhere, is another question. Do you believe the mom and grandparents considered this at the time?

Maybe his racist grandma did not want a Kenyan as a grandchild or even worse a Canadian or a Brit.

Pathetic

Poor even for jon's low standards.

 

[jon_mx]

You guys act like you never heard Obama throwing his grandma under the bus in his defense of Reverend Wright.

"As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me… I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother — a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe…"

 

[Rove!]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Back before the recession 42% of thge people believed that Bush was manipulating gas prices. That probably puts it nortb of 60% of Democrats. Th economy was humming along just fina, and people believed it

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I just heard an interesting line from Arrianna Huffington regarding this issue. She's a woman I tend to disagree with much more than I agree with, but she said:"In times of great economic anxiety, people become more likely to believe conspiracy theories."This makes sense, but it never occurred to me that it might be one of the sources of this issue. The reason it didn't is because the Truther movement developed at a time of less economic anxiety (though there was certainly international anxiety), and other conspiracies (Vince Foster, JFK) weren't developed in times of economic crisis either. Still, Huffington may be onto something in terms of anxiety in general resulting in increased numbers of people willing to accept implausible storylines- i.e., conspiracies. I still believe that race and Obama's name are the key roots of this specific conspiracy, but our growing economic problems may have something to do with it as well. Thoughts?

Back before the recession 42% of thge people believed that Bush was manipulating gas prices. That probably puts it nortb of 60% of Democrats. Th economy was humming along just fina, and people believed it

The economy was at no point under the eight years of W, or the Clinton year prior, or the Obama years since "humming along just fine" no matter what people believed or how much they were able to make on Wall Street.