The Clay Mathews “Roughing” Call... (2 Viewers)

[Andy Dufresne]

Apologies, I get sarcastic. I'm just trying to explain that you and I see the game differently. Me as a fixed thing and you as something which can be changed like this.

Forward passes were once illegal too. The game changes.

 

[Hankmoody]

Shocker, it was a bad call.  Those happen.  They have been happening since oh, about 1940.  The only difference is that we now have HDTV and digital technologies to slow it down and rotate it 360 degrees on 4 axis of rotation and a media that needs to sensationalize every slight imaginable to drive moron eyeballs to click them.  The game moves at a different speed live and those guys have about .23 seconds to make those decisions based on what flashed in front of their eyes.  Sucks it happened on an important play, but it didn't change the outcome by itself.  Both teams had other chances to win, both blew them.

 

[The General]

You and Clay Matthews are asking how it could be a penalty. I'm explaining it to you and Corrente explained it to Matthews. I'm sorry neither of you like the explanation.

His explanation was BS

Horrible call. Vikes got one in their favor, it happens.

 

[snogger]

The only people who think that wasn't a terrible call are Vikings fans.  The entire football world, including absolutely every single national reporter, think that was a BS call.  

Wrong.. I think this, as well as the one earlier in the game against Kendriks should NOT be called. Unfortunately for NFL Fans this is how it is going to be..

At this point either place flags on the QB, or make it two hand touch vs. them as it would take a magician on either of the flags to NOT end up on top of the QB.

 

[Short Corner]

Apologies, I get sarcastic. I'm just trying to explain that you and I see the game differently. Me as a fixed thing and you as something which can be changed like this.

And FWIW I think they got the call wrong, but given the new state of the game it's going to happen.  Incorrect calls are part of the game.

 

[Hov34]

*Burp* Excuse me.

The NFL now aggressively enforces landing on a quarterback with all or most of a defensive player’s body weight. That controversial new rule did not help decide the Vikings-Packers game.

The Vikings had the ball late, down 29-21. An interception by Packers rookie cornerback Jaire Alexander appeared to seal the victory for Green Bay. But then came a flag, and Packers linebacker Clay Matthews found himself called for roughing the passer.

“When he hit the quarterback, he lifted him and drove him into the ground,” referee Tony Corrente said after the game, in a pool report. “It has nothing to do with the rule of full body weight. . . . He picked the quarterback up and drove him into the ground.”

Some within the league refer to the Matthews maneuver as “burping” the quarterback. It’s irrelevant to the flattening that happens when a defensive player lands on the passer, like Tony Siragusa once did in the playoffs to Rich Gannon. “Burping” happens when the defensive player scoops and drives the quarterback into the turf.

And as Tony Dungy explained during NBC’s Football Night in America, at least Corrente was consistent. He flagged Vikings linebacker Eric Kendricks earlier in the game for a similar hit on Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

While none of this will placate the Packers and their fans, it’s one of the basic realities in a league without enough good quarterbacks — and with a strong incentive to keep the ones they have healthy.

 

[Bronco Billy]

If he was doing it just to piss off Packer fans it would be working beautifully.  That's not it.  Some homers are actually blinded by their homerism.  No biggie, it goes both ways. 

And their inability to admit that their initial opinion was wrong.

 

[The General]

Wrong.. I think this, as well as the one earlier in the game against Kendriks should NOT be called. Unfortunately for NFL Fans this is how it is going to be.. At this point either place flags on the QB, or make it two hand touch vs. them as it would take a magician on either of the flags to NOT end up on top of the QB.

This one the NFL may admit they were wrong about like they did last week with Myles. This is a new rule, IMO if called correctly a good one. Just really hard to call. 

 

[Short Corner]

This is only fair if the QB can no longer scramble outside of the pocket or run for positive yards.  Surely, QB's and OC's are designing plays to take advantage of this new interpretation of the rules, as any QB who can do a good pump fake and is relatively mobile has a huge advantage in this new game.  I would expect most offenses are designing "roughing the passer option" plays to use in key situations. If you can get the timing right, this play would be unstoppable.

If you say so.

 

[snogger]

*Burp* Excuse me.

And as Tony Dungy explained during NBC’s Football Night in America, at least Corrente was consistent. He flagged Vikings linebacker Eric Kendricks earlier in the game for a similar hit on Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

Like I said, QB's at this point can be hit from the below the neck to the waist, but then you must remove yourself from him, even if it takes a mid-air magician trick to do so.

 

[pricklypete]

Even Cousins said it was a generous call...

 

[Da Guru]

I watched the hit on Newton a few times as well.  Newton has ran over DBs many times..the DB was closing so fast and Newton running fast in opposite directions and he actually would have hit Newton in the thigh area had Newton stayed upright.  Frame by frame it looks bad but at game speed it is impossible to stop and it is trained reactions.

With Matthews tackle how many times have you seen QBs pump fake and spin and leave the defender grasping at air? Watching the tackle it looked textbook but not in todays NFL. In 5 years the game we grew up with will be totally changed.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

By far the most pathetic in a long line of pathetic "roughing" the passers penalties that were called in the first two weeks. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

By far the most pathetic in a long line of pathetic "roughing" the passers penalties that were called in the first two weeks. 

Or...it's setting how far the rule applies. 

 

[Donnybrook]

I am a Viking fan and agree that it shouldn't have been a penalty.  It going to be up to the discretion of the ref what it is weight and what is not weight on the QB. 

Even the hit by Barr on Aaron that inspired this rule was a normal every day tackle with unfortunate results.  I want to watch a sport where the rules are applied evenly.  This rule has the potential to make football like basketball.  Certain star players are going to get fouls called in their favor almost automatically.  Unfair and very frustrating for defensive players.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I am a Viking fan and agree that it shouldn't have been a penalty.  It going to be up to the discretion of the ref what it is weight and what is not weight on the QB. 

Even the hit by Barr on Aaron that inspired this rule was a normal every day tackle with unfortunate results.  I want to watch a sport where the rules are applied evenly.  This rule has the potential to make football like basketball.  Certain star players are going to get fouls called in their favor almost automatically.  Unfair and very frustrating for defensive players.  

That was a dirty, unnecessary play that was roughing the passer under any reasonable or consistent interpretation of the rules.  It was normal only compared to Charles Martin's assault on Jim McMahon, still one of the most shameful acts in football this side of the hiring of Les Steckel. which offended the football gods more than building the humperdone or the Packers fans shooting Dan Devine's dog.

 

[DocHolliday]

I am a Viking fan and agree that it shouldn't have been a penalty.  It going to be up to the discretion of the ref what it is weight and what is not weight on the QB. 

Even the hit by Barr on Aaron that inspired this rule was a normal every day tackle with unfortunate results.  I want to watch a sport where the rules are applied evenly.  This rule has the potential to make football like basketball.  Certain star players are going to get fouls called in their favor almost automatically.  Unfair and very frustrating for defensive players.  

Horrible call.  Unfortunately, if humans are involved with calling penalties, there are going to be errors.  But, they should not be this badly called.  It wasn't close to being a late hit or a pile drive.   

 

[Andy Dufresne]

That was a dirty, unnecessary play that was roughing the passer under any reasonable or consistent interpretation of the rules.  It was normal only compared to Charles Martin's assault on Jim McMahon, still one of the most shameful acts in football this side of the hiring of Les Steckel. which offended the football gods more than building the humperdone or the Packers fans shooting Dan Devine's dog.

It's funny we're not talking about Barr in the same breath as John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald, quite frankly.

 

[Underachievers]

Would anybody care if this had happened against the Browns or the Bills?  

It's being dramatized because it went against the Packers.  

 

[Amused to Death]

Would anybody care if this had happened against the Browns or the Bills?  

It's being dramatized because it went against the Packers.  

A horrible call is a horrible call.  I had no skin in that game.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It's funny we're not talking about Barr in the same breath as John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald, quite frankly.

Perhaps once we get use to using all three of his names instead of only one or two.    Still there may be a problem here in that Aaron Rodgers may not be high enough up in the list of world's greatest Americans to deserve that sort of deference.  As I understand the list it is Tom Brady, Jesus Christ,, Angelina Jolie's left nipple, Abraham Lincoln and then, and only then, Aaron Rodgers.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Perhaps once we get use to using all three of his names instead of only one or two.    Still there may be a problem here in that Aaron Rodgers may not be high enough up in the list of world's greatest Americans to deserve that sort of deference.  As I understand the list it is Tom Brady, Jesus Christ,, Angelina Jolie's left nipple, Abraham Lincoln and then, and only then, Aaron Rodgers.

Well, he's got time.

 

[Flying Elvis]

More work defining the rule is needed. I watched this live and didn't like it but also understood that landing on the QB is what earned the flag. It's kind of lame but it's nowhere near as lame as watching garbage QBs try to play NFL football b/c the far more rare good/great QB is injured. 

Make it clear that players need to work extremely hard to not land on the QB at all and calls like this go away. The players will adjust. 

The Packers still had opportunities to close out the game. As always with any questionable call, it's rare that the team has zero chance to overcome the disadvantage. 

/.02

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Absolutely nothing in this tackle that roughs the passer.

I totally get what the NFL is trying to do, but it seems we've hit a point with these rules where trying to protect the QB cannot be enforced -- logically or otherwise -- without affecting some of the fundamentals of the game (i.e. tackling).

Every year that goes by, the less some of the rules make sense -- to fans and players. Not a great trajectory.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well, he's got time.

My bad, I forgot Hugh Hefner and Gregory Goodwin Pincus. They are up there before Aaron.

,

 

[Todem]

Bold1: It wasn't necessary for him to be falling on the player at all.

Bold2: It depends a little on the angle. Neither are clear and one, from the perspective of the umpire, it looked much more like he was "burping" the QB.

Bold3: What if the moon was made of green cheese? The ball had already left his hand.

Sorry Andy...but you have lost your freaking mind. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Sorry Andy...but you have lost your freaking mind. 

I'm not the one confused by the penalty.

 

[Todem]

I'm not the one confused by the penalty.

Oh I am not confused. I am outraged at the random and over interpretation of a subjective penalty. 

It is out of control and ruining NFL football. It will decline...the golden goose is dying quickly. Injuries have been part of this game since it's inception. 

The NFL is afraid of it's own shadow now. With CTE running rampant among former players.....it is a matter of time before tackle football is a thing of the past.

That QB hit was as clean as they come. It was an outrage they called that. As well as the one earlier on the Vikings. Just awful BS that is ruining the outcomes of football games.

 

[Bronco Billy]

I'm not the one confused by the penalty.

No, you’re only utterly confused by the play.

 

[Hov34]

Absolutely nothing in this tackle that roughs the passer.

I totally get what the NFL is trying to do, but it seems we've hit a point with these rules where trying to protect the QB cannot be enforced -- logically or otherwise -- without affecting some of the fundamentals of the game (i.e. tackling).

Every year that goes by, the less some of the rules make sense -- to fans and players. Not a great trajectory.

That's the problem.  It's not tackling.  It's a "sack" (for as long a sack is still allowed).  "Tackling" a stationary player (a statue QB) can be dangerous and right or wrong the NFL is trying to protect "defenseless" players from getting hurt, so we don't have to endure the Brock Osweilers or Geno Smiths of the world.

So either outlaw the sack or if you get 2 hands on the QB he is down and it's a sack.  I don't know why this would be a problem?

 

[davearm]

You and Clay Matthews are asking how it could be a penalty. I'm explaining it to you and Corrente explained it to Matthews. I'm sorry neither of you like the explanation.

Corrente's explanation made no sense.  What he described flatly did not happen.  Matthews neither "lifted" the QB nor "picked the QB up" (Corrente's terms).  He may have thought he saw that action, but having the luxury of replay (which of course he did not), we can clearly see neither of those things occurred.  Matthews simply executed a textbook arm tackle.

Here is the full quote from Corrente:

Corrente said after the game that Matthews was flagged because he “lifted him and drove him into the ground. … It has nothing to do with the rule of full body weight. It has nothing to do with helmet-to-helmet. He picked the quarterback up and drove him into the ground.

It's understandable that Corrente made a mistake.  As others have said, the game moves extremely fast, and the officials must make difficult judgements in split seconds.

What's not understandable (to me) is how anyone could view the replays and yet still agree with Corrente's version of events.

 

[bryhamm]

I just saw a replay of the call.  No way that should have been a penalty.

 

[bryhamm]

andy, if he "drove" him to the ground, then he would not be putting his left arm out to break the fall.  he absolutely did NOT drive him into the ground.

 

[Bronco Billy]

You guys do understand that no matter how many times you explain this to Andy, he will not relent.  The replay is overt and obvious.  Andy either does not understand the football he is watching, refuses to back off an obviously incorrect judgment, or is trolling.  Honestly I can not tell which it is.

 

[Short Corner]

I watched the hit on Newton a few times as well.  Newton has ran over DBs many times..the DB was closing so fast and Newton running fast in opposite directions and he actually would have hit Newton in the thigh area had Newton stayed upright.  Frame by frame it looks bad but at game speed it is impossible to stop and it is trained reactions.

The Newton hit was dirty even at full speed.  I wouldn't be surprised if the guy gets a game or two on top of the ejection.

 

[tri-man 47]

andy, if he "drove" him to the ground, then he would not be putting his left arm out to break the fall.  he absolutely did NOT drive him into the ground.

I finally saw it for the first time as well, and I agree.  Matthews broke the fall with his left hand and, then, his right knee.  The first contact of his hands around the legs looks like it occurs just as the ball is being released ...leading to the interception.  

 

[Andy Dufresne]

andy, if he "drove" him to the ground, then he would not be putting his left arm out to break the fall.  he absolutely did NOT drive him into the ground.

He. Landed. On. Top. Of. Him.

You. Can't. Do. That.

 

[bryhamm]

the nfl will be issuing an "apology" on the blown call this week.  99.9% sure.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

the nfl will be issuing an "apology" on the blown call this week.  99.9% sure.

More likely they'll use it as an example of a correct call. 

 

[Short Corner]

the nfl will be issuing an "apology" on the blown call this week.  99.9% sure.

Maybe, but they will also continue to make this call and the get off my lawn crowd will continue to whine about it.  100% sure

 

[Doug B]

So either outlaw the sack or if you get 2 hands on the QB he is down and it's a sack.  I don't know why this would be a problem?

I wonder if this really could be a viable sack rule? Or if flags are better?

I just see some weird cases that might go missed, like a defender on the ground near the QB who happens to tap fingers from both hands on the QB's shoe or something. And the difference between "getting hands on the QB" and " barely scraping the QB".

 

[Bronco Billy]

He. Landed. On. Top. Of. Him.

You. Can't. Do. That.

I thought you understood the rule, yet here you are demanding everyone’s attention that youdo not and yet still insisting that you are correct.

Some sage advice I once got:  When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

 

[Grahamburn]

The Saints had two of these go against them last week and it did contribute to the loss as it led to a Bucs TD in a one score game. Yeah it’s out of control, and it’s totally random.

Ehhh.  Those were clearly late and also in the head area.  Likely ordered by Sean, The Weasel, Payton because Fitz was lighting that defense uppppp.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I thought you understood the rule, yet here you are demanding everyone’s attention that youdo not and yet still insisting that you are correct.

Some sage advice I once got:  When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

(b) A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground 
or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial 
contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a 
defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw 
him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap 
up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.

Matthews landed with his shoulder in Cousin's gut, laying on top of him. I'm not missing anything. Its not clear from the front view but pretty definitive from the rear, where the ref observed it. 

You can dislike speed limits all you want. But if you're caught speeding, you're probably getting a ticket. 

 

[Todem]

He. Landed. On. Top. Of. Him.

You. Can't. Do. That.

The NFL is asking it's players to just magically defy the laws of gravity......perfect.

I wonder how they will practice that.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The NFL is asking it's players to just magically defy the laws of gravity......perfect.

I wonder how they will practice that.

What you traditionally think of as a "tackle"? Don't do that to a QB that doesn't have, or very soon won't have, the ball.

 

[The Claymaker]

Andy is generally good people, but he is a homer and will never see this not the way Packer fans do, but the way the rest of the sentient world does.  I know, I lived among them for a few years.  I have seen the syndrome.  It was difficult to deal with, but there were compensations, for instance their women longed for men from a place where one did not have to sit indoors to watch a football game and have noise piped in to sound enthusiastic because the menfolk were too busy eating quiche and arguing the merits of a blush rose' as the basis for their wine spritzers. 

I agree and I usually like his posts. I watched the hit multiple times, during the game the announcers basically said it was a bad call, they called in the retired booth ref, who said “you don’t make that call, in that situation”.  

Last week against the Bears, Clay made a terrible decision on a late hit and the call was correct and could have easily cost the Packers that game. But this time it was a very bad call, agreed the call earlier in the game was questionable as well, but no where near as bad as that call. Obviously we all can expect some BS calls going forward, hopefully they don’t cost anyone else’s team a win.  

 

[Bronco Billy]

(b) A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground 
or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial 
contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a 
defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw 
him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap 
up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.

Matthews landed with his shoulder in Cousin's gut, laying on top of him. I'm not missing anything. Its not clear from the front view but pretty definitive from the rear, where the ref observed it. 

You can dislike speed limits all you want. But if you're caught speeding, you're probably getting a ticket. 

Matthews clearly made an effort to not apply all or most of his weight to the QB.  It’s plainly obvious.  That is clearly in compliance with the text of the rule as it exists in the rulebook - which you correctly cited.  I’m not sure how you see otherwise if you watch the play.

What’s next?  You’re going to argue that gravity doesn’t exist?  Either way, I’m done other than to still wonder which of the 3 possibilities apply to you.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Matthews clearly made an effort to not apply all or most of his weight to the QB.  It’s plainly obvious.  That is clearly in compliance with the text of the rule as it exists in the rulebook - which you correctly cited.  I’m not sure how you see otherwise if you watch the play.

What’s next?  You’re going to argue that gravity doesn’t exist?  Either way, I’m done other than to still wonder which of the 3 possibilities apply to you.

Except it's not. Matthews doesn't put his hand out until Cousins is on the ground. 

 

[Todem]

What you traditionally think of as a "tackle"? Don't do that to a QB that doesn't have, or very soon won't have, the ball.

He hit him literally right after he released the ball. They are paid to charge in full bore to take down QB's. You can't expect 265-285 pound men to magically hit the brakes and defy the laws of energy, weight and gravity. It is getting stupid.

It's not possible.

They really need to simply put a red jersey on every QB and make it two hand touch with sacks on the QB. This rule they have right now along with the "brady" rule simply is not working.

You can't tackle the QB anymore.

The league is becoming a joke with paralysis by analysis of rules and interpretations of rules on tackles on QB's, what is or what is not a catch. The constant replays of every single important play.

Pure fodder now.

Defense is now dead. It really is dead. 

The Arena League is here.