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[saintfool]

These threads are so awesome. I just love them.

Keep up the good work!

No kidding.And we're in good company. Emporer Constantine apparently got his jollies out of watching bishops debate. And the more violent the disagreements, the better he liked it.

before thunderdome, there was theologidome... "two bishops enter; one christian leaves..."

 

[larry_boy_44]

I didn't say hateful. I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others. That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

 

[larry_boy_44]

to go after it for purposefully doctoring up its own holy book in order to continue a lie that it tells its congregations???

Its not like they haven't admitted that they lied (they have, in mutliple venues) but yet they continue the doctrine that they felt hte need to lie to support...

they deserve to be gone after for purposefully editing thier own Holy Book in order to make people believe the lie they knew they were telling and then, after admitting they edited it in order to support thier lie, they continue to tell it...

PM me when you're ready to take a swing at the other christian sects/denominations, ok? Otherwise, your criticism is bordering on the irrational.ETA: in the spiriti of inquiry, i'd like to hear more about this misrepresentations, lies and the like that have been perpetrated by RCC. can you provide links?

I've taken swings at the Protestants, look at Cross' attitude towards me...as far as I John 5:7, look at most modern translations and the latest printings of Bibles, most of them do not contain the verse at all (or they have a footnote) about how there is no evidence in early manuscripts of that verse and that it is very likely that it was added at a later time...

Matthew 28:19 - http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm

the ending of Mark & the I Corinthians stuff about women I can't find stuff online, its stuff that I've been discussing a lot in my classes with my profs, there is evidence for it (basically it is manuscript evidence) but links for it I don't have time to look for at the moment...

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I didn't say hateful. I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others. That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

2.

1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

4. Law.

1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

3. A writ in witness of such an act.

5. An assertion of something believed.

6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

 

[larry_boy_44]

The Catholics did a lot more bad than they did good, they changed a lot when they should have left it alone, and they definately damned a lot more souls than they have ever or will ever save...

Very interesting take here. So the church is now the determiner of salvation or damnation? I always thought that was a God thing, but if I am reading you right the church you attend has a role in whether or not you are saved?!?

For nearly 2 millenia the Catholic Church attempted to play that role. They most definitely tried to be the conduit between the individual and God. But a lot of that is more to do with the lack of literacy of the masses for all but the last 2 hundred years or so than the Catholic Church's trying to control the masses. Of course that control was frequently abused over the years thus forcing people like Martin Luther to make a stand....

you are aware that Luther didn't want to make a stand until they kicked him out, right? Luther wanted to stay a good cAtholic for the rest of his life and would have stayed that way had the Church not excommunicated him and tried to kill him...

the 95 thesis was nothing more than a teaching aid to get his students to discuss things in class until they excommunicated him/threatened his life for them...basically, he accidentally touched a nerve and said something that the higher-ups were trying to hide and had to be eliminated for it...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

how about this... it isn't just SLIGHTLY wrong, its completely and utterly wrong and based upon heresy and pagan doctrines that have no place in the church...the whole doctrine of the trinity and baptism in the titles is, to a large degree, based upon 2 verses (Matthew 28:19 & I John 5:7) that WERE CHANGED!!! one said "In my name" originally and the ohter never existed...

The Catholic Church isn't just a little wrong, its completely missed the boat over the years, Spock... if anything, right now today it is at its best, and that is sad, to be honest with you...

What you are saying is that we can believe anythign and God's Grace is sufficient...

I stopped reading your reply because this last sentence made it completely obvious that you didn't even read (or perhaps comprehend) my post. Please read the bolded part in my post that you quoted.

I know, Spock, you claimed that you weren't saying that... the problem is that, in actuality, you were...If you don't even have to obey direct commands from God to be saved, then what do you have to do??? Where did you find out about these requirements if the requirements that God stated aren't required???

Why are you asking me about requirements for salvation? It's you that says there are requirements. The only argument that there are requirements for salvation above and beyond believing in Jesus Christ can only be established by ignoring the rest of the Bible and assuming that Acts is the only diffinative source on how one obtains salvation. You've made this argument to me countless times and I'm not getting into it again, because it's based on much circular and faulty logic.

define "belief" Spock... is "belief" in your world simply saying "I believe in you Jesus"???If I said that in order to save your life you'd ahve to do <insert some lame mundane task here> and you believed me, woudl that belief be enough or should you do the lame mundane task?

Faith without works is DEAD Spock, it means absolutely nothing... I understand where you are coming from, I really do, I just see no evidence in the Bible that simply believing that God is real is enough to be saved without any action behind it...

Jesus told the apostles to baptize all people in His name in Matthew 28:19, why? Well, according to Peter, it is because baptism is for remission of sins...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to believe that someone who has been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not saved. The "name" as it is used in the greek means authority or power. It's not used in the sense of what a person goes by, like Bob, or Mike, or Larry. The name (authority or power) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the same name (authority or power) of Jesus. Again, it's ludicrous to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized.

Because the phrase "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not factually in the Bible...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I didn't say hateful.  I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others.  That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

  2.

        1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

        2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

        3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

  3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

  4. Law.

        1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

        2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

        3. A writ in witness of such an act.

  5. An assertion of something believed.

  6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

  7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

fine, I am not judging in the way that Jesus was referring to, thus I am not doing anything that is spoken against in the Bible...better?

Now wouldn't it have been easier to just actually read what I say and not pick out nonsense to differ against and actually talk about what I say?

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

how about this... it isn't just SLIGHTLY wrong, its completely and utterly wrong and based upon heresy and pagan doctrines that have no place in the church...the whole doctrine of the trinity and baptism in the titles is, to a large degree, based upon 2 verses (Matthew 28:19 & I John 5:7) that WERE CHANGED!!! one said "In my name" originally and the ohter never existed...

The Catholic Church isn't just a little wrong, its completely missed the boat over the years, Spock... if anything, right now today it is at its best, and that is sad, to be honest with you...

What you are saying is that we can believe anythign and God's Grace is sufficient...

I stopped reading your reply because this last sentence made it completely obvious that you didn't even read (or perhaps comprehend) my post. Please read the bolded part in my post that you quoted.

I know, Spock, you claimed that you weren't saying that... the problem is that, in actuality, you were...If you don't even have to obey direct commands from God to be saved, then what do you have to do??? Where did you find out about these requirements if the requirements that God stated aren't required???

Why are you asking me about requirements for salvation? It's you that says there are requirements. The only argument that there are requirements for salvation above and beyond believing in Jesus Christ can only be established by ignoring the rest of the Bible and assuming that Acts is the only diffinative source on how one obtains salvation. You've made this argument to me countless times and I'm not getting into it again, because it's based on much circular and faulty logic.

define "belief" Spock... is "belief" in your world simply saying "I believe in you Jesus"???If I said that in order to save your life you'd ahve to do <insert some lame mundane task here> and you believed me, woudl that belief be enough or should you do the lame mundane task?

Faith without works is DEAD Spock, it means absolutely nothing... I understand where you are coming from, I really do, I just see no evidence in the Bible that simply believing that God is real is enough to be saved without any action behind it...

Jesus told the apostles to baptize all people in His name in Matthew 28:19, why? Well, according to Peter, it is because baptism is for remission of sins...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to believe that someone who has been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not saved. The "name" as it is used in the greek means authority or power. It's not used in the sense of what a person goes by, like Bob, or Mike, or Larry. The name (authority or power) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the same name (authority or power) of Jesus. Again, it's ludicrous to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized.

Because the phrase "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not factually in the Bible...

So a person who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in their lives, is going to hell because that phrase is not factually in the Bible?

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I didn't say hateful. I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others. That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

2.

1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

4. Law.

1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

3. A writ in witness of such an act.

5. An assertion of something believed.

6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

fine, I am not judging in the way that Jesus was referring to, thus I am not doing anything that is spoken against in the Bible...better?

Now wouldn't it have been easier to just actually read what I say and not pick out nonsense to differ against and actually talk about what I say?

You said you were not judging people, when your explanation of what you were doing fits the very definition of judging. Why do you always accuse me of not reading what you said? I read what you say. I cannot help that you often do not make any sense with the things that you say. If you do not know how to use the English language and constantly contridict yourself in your explanations, then how can you expect to be effective in making your point. I can probably fit what you've said in this thread with just about every definition of judgment listed, so do not tell us that you are not judging people.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

how about this... it isn't just SLIGHTLY wrong, its completely and utterly wrong and based upon heresy and pagan doctrines that have no place in the church...the whole doctrine of the trinity and baptism in the titles is, to a large degree, based upon 2 verses (Matthew 28:19 & I John 5:7) that WERE CHANGED!!! one said "In my name" originally and the ohter never existed...

The Catholic Church isn't just a little wrong, its completely missed the boat over the years, Spock... if anything, right now today it is at its best, and that is sad, to be honest with you...

What you are saying is that we can believe anythign and God's Grace is sufficient...

I stopped reading your reply because this last sentence made it completely obvious that you didn't even read (or perhaps comprehend) my post. Please read the bolded part in my post that you quoted.

I know, Spock, you claimed that you weren't saying that... the problem is that, in actuality, you were...If you don't even have to obey direct commands from God to be saved, then what do you have to do??? Where did you find out about these requirements if the requirements that God stated aren't required???

Why are you asking me about requirements for salvation? It's you that says there are requirements. The only argument that there are requirements for salvation above and beyond believing in Jesus Christ can only be established by ignoring the rest of the Bible and assuming that Acts is the only diffinative source on how one obtains salvation. You've made this argument to me countless times and I'm not getting into it again, because it's based on much circular and faulty logic.

define "belief" Spock... is "belief" in your world simply saying "I believe in you Jesus"???If I said that in order to save your life you'd ahve to do <insert some lame mundane task here> and you believed me, woudl that belief be enough or should you do the lame mundane task?

Faith without works is DEAD Spock, it means absolutely nothing... I understand where you are coming from, I really do, I just see no evidence in the Bible that simply believing that God is real is enough to be saved without any action behind it...

Jesus told the apostles to baptize all people in His name in Matthew 28:19, why? Well, according to Peter, it is because baptism is for remission of sins...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to believe that someone who has been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not saved. The "name" as it is used in the greek means authority or power. It's not used in the sense of what a person goes by, like Bob, or Mike, or Larry. The name (authority or power) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the same name (authority or power) of Jesus. Again, it's ludicrous to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized.

Because the phrase "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not factually in the Bible...

So a person who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in their lives, is going to hell because that phrase is not factually in the Bible?

truthfully? I don't know... but the person who believed the lie is just as guilty as the one who told the lie in this case as they aren't believing in "the correct God" really...There is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved... both Jesus and Peter told us to be baptized in Jesus' name, Paul told people the same thing...

but we don't? Why? Because we are too arrogant about our traditions to do what God told us, if anything our arrogance about it is going to send us to hell...

But, Spock, you, personally, you don't have the "I didn't know" excuse anymore, you've been told and you've seen it... so, to be personal about this, why haven't you been baptized in Jesus' name yet? Jesus was explicit about it, so was Peter and Paul, so, no, "The Son" isn't enough... why are you continually and purposefully living your life in disobedience to a simple command like that?

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I didn't say hateful.  I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others.  That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

  2.

        1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

        2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

        3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

  3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

  4. Law.

        1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

        2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

        3. A writ in witness of such an act.

  5. An assertion of something believed.

  6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

  7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

fine, I am not judging in the way that Jesus was referring to, thus I am not doing anything that is spoken against in the Bible...better?

Now wouldn't it have been easier to just actually read what I say and not pick out nonsense to differ against and actually talk about what I say?

You said you were not judging people, when your explanation of what you were doing fits the very definition of judging. Why do you always accuse me of not reading what you said? I read what you say. I cannot help that you often do not make any sense with the things that you say. If you do not know how to use the English language and constantly contridict yourself in your explanations, then how can you expect to be effective in making your point. I can probably fit what you've said in this thread with just about every definition of judgment listed, so do not tell us that you are not judging people.

I was speaking in reply to the post before mine, not in reply to every definition of the word "judging" there is... when speaking of the Bible and its command not to judge others, it is one specific definition (and one that, really, isn't even in the Dictionary, unfortunately) not any/every definition...the reason you didn't undersatnd what I was saying is because you didn't read anything except for that one instance of the word and had no real idea of what was being discussed or talked about at the time... you completely took waht was said out of context rather than thinking about what was said in relation to what was said beofre and after it...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

so now we don't have to believe to be saved, either?man, your Christianity is a ton easier than mine...

 

[saintfool]

the 95 thesis was nothing more than a teaching aid to get his students to discuss things in class until they excommunicated him/threatened his life for them...

basically, he accidentally touched a nerve and said something that the higher-ups were trying to hide and had to be eliminated for it...

you are so close to be correct! his formal criticism of the Church was nothing new. He might not have even posted the "95 theses" at all but instead wrote them and distributed them among his peers. There were a number of radicals of the period and plenty more preceeding him. As radical as Luther was - and he wasn't by comparison to someone like Zwingli - he quickly became politicized, as you said, and the spiritual aspects of what he was saying were overshadowed by the political.

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I didn't say hateful. I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others. That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

2.

1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

4. Law.

1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

3. A writ in witness of such an act.

5. An assertion of something believed.

6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

fine, I am not judging in the way that Jesus was referring to, thus I am not doing anything that is spoken against in the Bible...better?

Now wouldn't it have been easier to just actually read what I say and not pick out nonsense to differ against and actually talk about what I say?

You said you were not judging people, when your explanation of what you were doing fits the very definition of judging. Why do you always accuse me of not reading what you said? I read what you say. I cannot help that you often do not make any sense with the things that you say. If you do not know how to use the English language and constantly contridict yourself in your explanations, then how can you expect to be effective in making your point. I can probably fit what you've said in this thread with just about every definition of judgment listed, so do not tell us that you are not judging people.

I was speaking in reply to the post before mine, not in reply to every definition of the word "judging" there is... when speaking of the Bible and its command not to judge others, it is one specific definition (and one that, really, isn't even in the Dictionary, unfortunately) not any/every definition...the reason you didn't undersatnd what I was saying is because you didn't read anything except for that one instance of the word and had no real idea of what was being discussed or talked about at the time... you completely took waht was said out of context rather than thinking about what was said in relation to what was said beofre and after it...

I did read what you said with the context, and I am telling you that your entire point is made invalid by the simple fact that you do not understand what the word judging means.

 

[Politician Spock]

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.

That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

how about this... it isn't just SLIGHTLY wrong, its completely and utterly wrong and based upon heresy and pagan doctrines that have no place in the church...the whole doctrine of the trinity and baptism in the titles is, to a large degree, based upon 2 verses (Matthew 28:19 & I John 5:7) that WERE CHANGED!!! one said "In my name" originally and the ohter never existed...

The Catholic Church isn't just a little wrong, its completely missed the boat over the years, Spock... if anything, right now today it is at its best, and that is sad, to be honest with you...

What you are saying is that we can believe anythign and God's Grace is sufficient...

I stopped reading your reply because this last sentence made it completely obvious that you didn't even read (or perhaps comprehend) my post. Please read the bolded part in my post that you quoted.

I know, Spock, you claimed that you weren't saying that... the problem is that, in actuality, you were...If you don't even have to obey direct commands from God to be saved, then what do you have to do??? Where did you find out about these requirements if the requirements that God stated aren't required???

Why are you asking me about requirements for salvation? It's you that says there are requirements. The only argument that there are requirements for salvation above and beyond believing in Jesus Christ can only be established by ignoring the rest of the Bible and assuming that Acts is the only diffinative source on how one obtains salvation. You've made this argument to me countless times and I'm not getting into it again, because it's based on much circular and faulty logic.

define "belief" Spock... is "belief" in your world simply saying "I believe in you Jesus"???If I said that in order to save your life you'd ahve to do <insert some lame mundane task here> and you believed me, woudl that belief be enough or should you do the lame mundane task?

Faith without works is DEAD Spock, it means absolutely nothing... I understand where you are coming from, I really do, I just see no evidence in the Bible that simply believing that God is real is enough to be saved without any action behind it...

Jesus told the apostles to baptize all people in His name in Matthew 28:19, why? Well, according to Peter, it is because baptism is for remission of sins...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to believe that someone who has been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not saved. The "name" as it is used in the greek means authority or power. It's not used in the sense of what a person goes by, like Bob, or Mike, or Larry. The name (authority or power) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the same name (authority or power) of Jesus. Again, it's ludicrous to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized.

Because the phrase "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not factually in the Bible...

So a person who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in their lives, is going to hell because that phrase is not factually in the Bible?

truthfully? I don't know... but the person who believed the lie is just as guilty as the one who told the lie in this case as they aren't believing in "the correct God" really...There is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved... both Jesus and Peter told us to be baptized in Jesus' name, Paul told people the same thing...

but we don't? Why? Because we are too arrogant about our traditions to do what God told us, if anything our arrogance about it is going to send us to hell...

But, Spock, you, personally, you don't have the "I didn't know" excuse anymore, you've been told and you've seen it... so, to be personal about this, why haven't you been baptized in Jesus' name yet? Jesus was explicit about it, so was Peter and Paul, so, no, "The Son" isn't enough... why are you continually and purposefully living your life in disobedience to a simple command like that?

Your lack of logic is amazing. In your first sentence you say "I DON'T KNOW". Then you claim that I don't have the "I DIDN'T KNOW" excuse anymore because someone who doesn't know told me what I should know. And what you continue to ignore is that the "name" is authority or power, not what a person goes by. If using the right word is so important, then we're practicing witchcraft. I am not save by a word. I'm am saved by the Grace of the one true authority... GOD! The authority and power of Jesus is the same authority and power of the Father, and the same authority and power of the Holy Spirit. And the authority and power of Jesus doesn't change if I refer to Jesus as the Son.

 

[ElGatoLoco]

What is God's name?

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

so now we don't have to believe to be saved, either?man, your Christianity is a ton easier than mine...

Where did you conclude that from my post?God can show Grace even if they (believers) are disobedient.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

larry_boy's church is fighting for market share. It has to differentiate itself from the McDonald's Catholic Church by directly attacking it in its advertising. It has nothing to do with larry's church's actual belief that Catholic's are sinners, but everything to do with an attempt to chip away at its client base.

 

[saintfool]

What is God's name?

Jimmy.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

What is God's name?

Harold.Our father, who art in heaven, Harold be thy name.

 

[Politician Spock]

What is God's name?

The Names of Godand for Larry, pay special attention to this from the page:

So, just as the name of God in the Old Testament spoke of the holy character of God the Father, so the name of Jesus in the New Testament speaks of the holy character of God the Son

 

[larry_boy_44]

I didn't say hateful.  I said you are making judgements on the eternal life of others.  That type of self-importance and pride isn't the essence of a true follower, is it?

I'm not making judgements, I'm using what the Bible says to look at people's faith and see if it lines up...If we aren't getting the basis of our faith from there, why do we think its real faith? I mean, its "bad" enough we get our faith from a book written 2000 years ago that we can't prove 90% of what it describes as truely happening, now we're trying to say that the book is wrong too and that what we just made up is more correct? Come on...

Yep, that's a judgment.judg·ment also judge·ment n.

1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

  2.

        1. The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.

        2. The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.

        3. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.

  3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

  4. Law.

        1. A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.

        2. A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.

        3. A writ in witness of such an act.

  5. An assertion of something believed.

  6. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.

  7. Judgment The Last Judgment.

fine, I am not judging in the way that Jesus was referring to, thus I am not doing anything that is spoken against in the Bible...better?

Now wouldn't it have been easier to just actually read what I say and not pick out nonsense to differ against and actually talk about what I say?

You said you were not judging people, when your explanation of what you were doing fits the very definition of judging. Why do you always accuse me of not reading what you said? I read what you say. I cannot help that you often do not make any sense with the things that you say. If you do not know how to use the English language and constantly contridict yourself in your explanations, then how can you expect to be effective in making your point. I can probably fit what you've said in this thread with just about every definition of judgment listed, so do not tell us that you are not judging people.

I was speaking in reply to the post before mine, not in reply to every definition of the word "judging" there is... when speaking of the Bible and its command not to judge others, it is one specific definition (and one that, really, isn't even in the Dictionary, unfortunately) not any/every definition...the reason you didn't undersatnd what I was saying is because you didn't read anything except for that one instance of the word and had no real idea of what was being discussed or talked about at the time... you completely took waht was said out of context rather than thinking about what was said in relation to what was said beofre and after it...

I did read what you said with the context, and I am telling you that your entire point is made invalid by the simple fact that you do not understand what the word judging means.

but I wasn't referring to "judgement" as used in normal English, I was referring to the way it is used (and what is meant) in the gospels when Jesus says to "Judge not"... He is not referring to "judging" as it is used in modern English, thus I was not using the modern English definition of "judgement"...

 

[Koya]

How's Bible Study with Larry goin?

 

[larry_boy_44]

I know, Spock, you claimed that you weren't saying that... the problem is that, in actuality, you were...

If you don't even have to obey direct commands from God to be saved, then what do you have to do??? Where did you find out about these requirements if the requirements that God stated aren't required???

Why are you asking me about requirements for salvation? It's you that says there are requirements. The only argument that there are requirements for salvation above and beyond believing in Jesus Christ can only be established by ignoring the rest of the Bible and assuming that Acts is the only diffinative source on how one obtains salvation. You've made this argument to me countless times and I'm not getting into it again, because it's based on much circular and faulty logic.

define "belief" Spock... is "belief" in your world simply saying "I believe in you Jesus"???If I said that in order to save your life you'd ahve to do <insert some lame mundane task here> and you believed me, woudl that belief be enough or should you do the lame mundane task?

Faith without works is DEAD Spock, it means absolutely nothing... I understand where you are coming from, I really do, I just see no evidence in the Bible that simply believing that God is real is enough to be saved without any action behind it...

Jesus told the apostles to baptize all people in His name in Matthew 28:19, why? Well, according to Peter, it is because baptism is for remission of sins...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to be baptized in Jesus' name...

The real question here is why, if it is factually in the Bible as much as it is, you refuse to believe that someone who has been baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not saved. The "name" as it is used in the greek means authority or power. It's not used in the sense of what a person goes by, like Bob, or Mike, or Larry. The name (authority or power) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the same name (authority or power) of Jesus. Again, it's ludicrous to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized.

Because the phrase "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not factually in the Bible...

So a person who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in their lives, is going to hell because that phrase is not factually in the Bible?

truthfully? I don't know... but the person who believed the lie is just as guilty as the one who told the lie in this case as they aren't believing in "the correct God" really...There is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved... both Jesus and Peter told us to be baptized in Jesus' name, Paul told people the same thing...

but we don't? Why? Because we are too arrogant about our traditions to do what God told us, if anything our arrogance about it is going to send us to hell...

But, Spock, you, personally, you don't have the "I didn't know" excuse anymore, you've been told and you've seen it... so, to be personal about this, why haven't you been baptized in Jesus' name yet? Jesus was explicit about it, so was Peter and Paul, so, no, "The Son" isn't enough... why are you continually and purposefully living your life in disobedience to a simple command like that?

Your lack of logic is amazing. In your first sentence you say "I DON'T KNOW". Then you claim that I don't have the "I DIDN'T KNOW" excuse anymore because someone who doesn't know told me what I should know. And what you continue to ignore is that the "name" is authority or power, not what a person goes by. If using the right word is so important, then we're practicing witchcraft. I am not save by a word. I'm am saved by the Grace of the one true authority... GOD! The authority and power of Jesus is the same authority and power of the Father, and the same authority and power of the Holy Spirit. And the authority and power of Jesus doesn't change if I refer to Jesus as the Son.

first of the two "I don't knows" are referring to two different things... I don't know if God is going to send people to hell for being disobedient to His command, you do know that His command is not actually what you are doing, you just don't care what His command actually was because you rationalized your tradition into God's command...second, no matter how you put it, saying "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not following what Jesus actually said in Matthew 28:19 (As He explictly said "In my name")... nor is it following the commands that Peter and Paul gave...

third, God put requirements on us, He did.. By the grace that you speak we don't have to do anything, we don't even have to believe, to be saved... but that makes it useless for Christ to have died, if God were going to deal with the sin in our lives, He didn't need to come and die, but He did, why? To cover our sins, not so we can go "Eh, His grace is sufficient I'll do whatever I want", which is what you are saying...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

so now we don't have to believe to be saved, either?man, your Christianity is a ton easier than mine...

Where did you conclude that from my post?God can show Grace even if they (believers) are disobedient.

ok, so we don't have to obey what God says, even direct commandments... we don't even have to try...We don't have to try to not sin...

All we have to do is go "I believe in you" and we're good to go?

See, it sounds really, really nice, Spock, but care to actually use the Bible (and more than one verse since the Bible does say out of the mouth of two or three will all truth come) to show this? Preferably use the whole thing, not just the cut-and-paste job that your church gives you on a regular basis, ok?

 

[larry_boy_44]

What is God's name?

The Names of Godand for Larry, pay special attention to this from the page:

So, just as the name of God in the Old Testament spoke of the holy character of God the Father, so the name of Jesus in the New Testament speaks of the holy character of God the Son

I love when sites like that use polythiestic language when it isn't needed in any way shape or form...When Jesus' left He said to baptize them in His name, not necessarily because "Jesus" is the name of God, but because that's what He commanded them to do...

it doesn't matter if "Jesus" is the name of God or not

 

[Politician Spock]

first of the two "I don't knows" are referring to two different things...

No Larry, they are referring to the exact same thing. You don't know if the Catholic is going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during their baptism, but you claim to know that I'm going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during my baptism.

I don't know if God is going to send people to hell for being disobedient to His command, you do know that His command is not actually what you are doing, you just don't care what His command actually was because you rationalized your tradition into God's command...

So in telling people that they are going to hell because the wrong words were uttered at their baptism despite the fact that they profess belief, continually serve Christ and show good fruit, you are telling them something you don't know for sure. On the other hand, I'm telling people something I know: Believe that Christ is your savior and you will have eternal life. Salvation is that simple. That's the good news. All of the commandments Jesus gave to his believers (and there are tons of them) are not prerequisits to receive Gods grace. Obedience of his commandments is evidence of one's belief. If you were to say that a person who never shows any evidence of obedience has failed to profess belief in Christ and is therefor not saved, then I would agree with that. But that is far from what you claim that even the wrong words being uttered at one's baptism is a disobeidience that will send someone to hell.

second, no matter how you put it, saying "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not following what Jesus actually said in Matthew 28:19 (As He explictly said "In my name")... nor is it following the commands that Peter and Paul gave...

THEN HAVE THE PERSON WHO BAPTISES YOU SAY IT IN THE GREEK IF DOING IF EXPLICITLY IS SO IMPORTANT!

third, God put requirements on us, He did.. By the grace that you speak we don't have to do anything, we don't even have to believe, to be saved... but that makes it useless for Christ to have died, if God were going to deal with the sin in our lives, He didn't need to come and die, but He did, why? To cover our sins, not so we can go "Eh, His grace is sufficient I'll do whatever I want", which is what you are saying...

Never, never, NEVER have I said "I'll do whatever I want". You have to establish that as part of my argument to even retort it. Try actually responding to what I'm saying to see if you can retort my argument.

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm not necessarily saying mine is right, I'm saying i am 100% sure thiers is wrong (by thier own admission through history)

Every Christian denomination is wrong in one way or another. Denominations are made up of people who are fallible. If were damned to hell because our doctrine is slightly wrong, then God's Grace is NOT sufficient.That's not to say we can believe anything and God's Grace will be sufficient, but to tell people who profess belief in Jesus Christ, and serve Christ continually, and produce good fruit in the lives, that they are going to hell because of technicalities of the words that were uttered when they were baptized is ludicrous.

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

so now we don't have to believe to be saved, either?man, your Christianity is a ton easier than mine...

Where did you conclude that from my post?God can show Grace even if they (believers) are disobedient.

ok, so we don't have to obey what God says, even direct commandments... we don't even have to try...We don't have to try to not sin...

All we have to do is go "I believe in you" and we're good to go?

See, it sounds really, really nice, Spock, but care to actually use the Bible (and more than one verse since the Bible does say out of the mouth of two or three will all truth come) to show this? Preferably use the whole thing, not just the cut-and-paste job that your church gives you on a regular basis, ok?

I have used the Bible NUMEROUS times in the past to show you this, and every single solitary time you say that only ACTS shows us how to be saved and that the rest of the books of the NT are written for people who are already Christians. It's not even close to being true, but you won't budge from that position, so why even go there again?

 

[Politician Spock]

What is God's name?

The Names of Godand for Larry, pay special attention to this from the page:

So, just as the name of God in the Old Testament spoke of the holy character of God the Father, so the name of Jesus in the New Testament speaks of the holy character of God the Son

I love when sites like that use polythiestic language when it isn't needed in any way shape or form...When Jesus' left He said to baptize them in His name, not necessarily because "Jesus" is the name of God, but because that's what He commanded them to do...

it doesn't matter if "Jesus" is the name of God or not

 

[larry_boy_44]

If God exists is perfect and worthy of worship and praise then God is not this anal.

if you tell someone to do something, and you are very exact about it, and they not only don't do it, but don't do it with the attitude of "it doesn't actually matter what you told me to do, I'll do it my way and you'll accept it 'cuz that's how it is", would you be happy with them?I mean, I tell my kid to clean and vacuum his room, and he doesn't vacuum it, but still cleaned it, I am not going to be happy with his room-cleaning and there will be consequences...

same thing here, God told us to do something, He was very specific about it, and if we don't do it, he's already told us the consequences for that action... it isn't like we don't know, we just don't care what He said, which is why its bad...

So God has to be happy with us before we can receive God's Grace? Where is that in the Bible? As much as I want my sons to learn obedience I'm not going to stop loving them even when I'm not happy with them. You seem to think I should damn them to hell because they disobey. That's completely contrary to what Christ did for us:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

yes, and according to, I believe, James anyone who sins doesn't know God...you can pull one verse out to mean ANYTHING you could ever want (including all people are going to hell since all have sinned and anyone who ever sinned will never know God)...

seriously, Spock, you know better than to claim one verse proves everything like that....

It doesn't prove everything. It just shows the insinuation you are implying in your parent/child analogy has nothing to do with salvation. God can still show people Grace even if they are disobedient. Obedience is a sign of belief, not a requirement of salvation.

so now we don't have to believe to be saved, either?man, your Christianity is a ton easier than mine...

Where did you conclude that from my post?God can show Grace even if they (believers) are disobedient.

ok, so we don't have to obey what God says, even direct commandments... we don't even have to try...We don't have to try to not sin...

All we have to do is go "I believe in you" and we're good to go?

See, it sounds really, really nice, Spock, but care to actually use the Bible (and more than one verse since the Bible does say out of the mouth of two or three will all truth come) to show this? Preferably use the whole thing, not just the cut-and-paste job that your church gives you on a regular basis, ok?

I have used the Bible NUMEROUS times in the past to show you this, and every single solitary time you say that only ACTS shows us how to be saved and that the rest of the books of the NT are written for people who are already Christians. It's not even close to being true, but you won't budge from that position, so why even go there again?

are you now telling me that Romans wasn't really written to the church in Rome?? I & II Corinthians not to the church in Corinth?? Galations not to the church of Galatia??? Ephesians not to the church of Ephesus???If not written to those places, who exactly were those letters written to? Especially since the letters all refer to the intended recipient of the letter as the churches in those places...

 

[Mr. Chumley]

I really didn't want to get into this but, here are a few verses. None of which says salvation is secured through faith and works. The problem with works is you never have the peace of knowing for sure you are saved. You never know if you've done enough to get your ticket punched.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…" John 6:40

 

[larry_boy_44]

first of the two "I don't knows" are referring to two different things...

No Larry, they are referring to the exact same thing. You don't know if the Catholic is going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during their baptism, but you claim to know that I'm going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during my baptism.

I don't know if God is going to send people to hell for being disobedient to His command, you do know that His command is not actually what you are doing, you just don't care what His command actually was because you rationalized your tradition into God's command...

So in telling people that they are going to hell because the wrong words were uttered at their baptism despite the fact that they profess belief, continually serve Christ and show good fruit, you are telling them something you don't know for sure. On the other hand, I'm telling people something I know: Believe that Christ is your savior and you will have eternal life. Salvation is that simple. That's the good news. All of the commandments Jesus gave to his believers (and there are tons of them) are not prerequisits to receive Gods grace. Obedience of his commandments is evidence of one's belief. If you were to say that a person who never shows any evidence of obedience has failed to profess belief in Christ and is therefor not saved, then I would agree with that. But that is far from what you claim that even the wrong words being uttered at one's baptism is a disobeidience that will send someone to hell.

second, no matter how you put it, saying "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not following what Jesus actually said in Matthew 28:19 (As He explictly said "In my name")... nor is it following the commands that Peter and Paul gave...

THEN HAVE THE PERSON WHO BAPTISES YOU SAY IT IN THE GREEK IF DOING IF EXPLICITLY IS SO IMPORTANT!

third, God put requirements on us, He did.. By the grace that you speak we don't have to do anything, we don't even have to believe, to be saved... but that makes it useless for Christ to have died, if God were going to deal with the sin in our lives, He didn't need to come and die, but He did, why? To cover our sins, not so we can go "Eh, His grace is sufficient I'll do whatever I want", which is what you are saying...

Never, never, NEVER have I said "I'll do whatever I want". You have to establish that as part of my argument to even retort it. Try actually responding to what I'm saying to see if you can retort my argument.

so if you believe and never act on it, did you really believe? IF you believe, adn there are commands of what you need to do, and you don't do them, did you really believe?You have said you will do whatever youwant when you stick with yoru completely extra-Biblical tradition rather than doing what the Bible says we should do, you do not even have Matthew 28:19 to stand on about baptism, you simply don't care what the Bible says and it is about time you just admit it, becasue that is the jist of what you are saying... Not one place in the Bible does it ever give any indication of baptism in any other way but "In JEsus name" in some way shape or form, stop changing things to meet with the pagan traditions that your ancestors added to Chrsitanity...

 

[Politician Spock]

I have used the Bible NUMEROUS times in the past to show you this, and every single solitary time you say that only ACTS shows us how to be saved and that the rest of the books of the NT are written for people who are already Christians. It's not even close to being true, but you won't budge from that position, so why even go there again?

are you now telling me that Romans wasn't really written to the church in Rome?? I & II Corinthians not to the church in Corinth?? Galations not to the church of Galatia??? Ephesians not to the church of Ephesus???If not written to those places, who exactly were those letters written to? Especially since the letters all refer to the intended recipient of the letter as the churches in those places...

Where did I ever claim that Romans wasn't written to the church in Rome, or that Corintians was not written to the church in Corinth, or that Galations was not written to the church in Galatia, or that Ephesians was not written to the church in Ephesus?

 

[shining path]

Little known trivia question: Galatia, in the uplands of modern Turkey, was named Galatia because it was conquered by marauding Gauls. So it was this little outpost of blond haired blue eyed barbarians sitting right in the middle of the surrounding swarthy Greek-speaking population.

I do not know why Ephasus was named Ephasus.

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I was speaking in reply to the post before mine, not in reply to every definition of the word "judging" there is... when speaking of the Bible and its command not to judge others, it is one specific definition (and one that, really, isn't even in the Dictionary, unfortunately) not any/every definition...

the reason you didn't undersatnd what I was saying is because you didn't read anything except for that one instance of the word and had no real idea of what was being discussed or talked about at the time... you completely took waht was said out of context rather than thinking about what was said in relation to what was said beofre and after it...

Now you are claiming you know what I read and didn't read. You're coming really close to having a god complex here if you can do that.So, were you referring to the Hebrew definition?

(Hebrew) judgment: shephet sheh'-fet: a sentence, i.e. infliction:--judgment.

Or, the Greek?

(Greek) judgment: krisis kree'-sis: decision (subjectively or objectively, for or

against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):

--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Please enlighten me on the specific definition of judgment that you are using.

 

[Politician Spock]

first of the two "I don't knows" are referring to two different things...

No Larry, they are referring to the exact same thing. You don't know if the Catholic is going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during their baptism, but you claim to know that I'm going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during my baptism.

I don't know if God is going to send people to hell for being disobedient to His command, you do know that His command is not actually what you are doing, you just don't care what His command actually was because you rationalized your tradition into God's command...

So in telling people that they are going to hell because the wrong words were uttered at their baptism despite the fact that they profess belief, continually serve Christ and show good fruit, you are telling them something you don't know for sure. On the other hand, I'm telling people something I know: Believe that Christ is your savior and you will have eternal life. Salvation is that simple. That's the good news. All of the commandments Jesus gave to his believers (and there are tons of them) are not prerequisits to receive Gods grace. Obedience of his commandments is evidence of one's belief. If you were to say that a person who never shows any evidence of obedience has failed to profess belief in Christ and is therefor not saved, then I would agree with that. But that is far from what you claim that even the wrong words being uttered at one's baptism is a disobeidience that will send someone to hell.

second, no matter how you put it, saying "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not following what Jesus actually said in Matthew 28:19 (As He explictly said "In my name")... nor is it following the commands that Peter and Paul gave...

THEN HAVE THE PERSON WHO BAPTISES YOU SAY IT IN THE GREEK IF DOING IF EXPLICITLY IS SO IMPORTANT!

third, God put requirements on us, He did.. By the grace that you speak we don't have to do anything, we don't even have to believe, to be saved... but that makes it useless for Christ to have died, if God were going to deal with the sin in our lives, He didn't need to come and die, but He did, why? To cover our sins, not so we can go "Eh, His grace is sufficient I'll do whatever I want", which is what you are saying...

Never, never, NEVER have I said "I'll do whatever I want". You have to establish that as part of my argument to even retort it. Try actually responding to what I'm saying to see if you can retort my argument.

so if you believe and never act on it, did you really believe? IF you believe, adn there are commands of what you need to do, and you don't do them, did you really believe?

Like I said before Larry, if you were to claim that a person who never obeys(0% obedience) is not saved, I would agree with you. If they are 0% obedient, do they really believe. I can honestly say no they don't. But you are saying that even a person who got everything right except one thing (99.9999% obedience) is going to hell because uttering the right words during one's baptism is that important.

You have said you will do whatever youwant when you stick with yoru completely extra-Biblical tradition rather than doing what the Bible says we should do, you do not even have Matthew 28:19 to stand on about baptism, you simply don't care what the Bible says and it is about time you just admit it, becasue that is the jist of what you are saying... Not one place in the Bible does it ever give any indication of baptism in any other way but "In JEsus name" in some way shape or form, stop changing things to meet with the pagan traditions that your ancestors added to Chrsitanity...

Larry all of this above is a complete assumption on your part. Just because I believe God will give Grace even to disobedient believers (99% obedience is still disobedience) does not mean that I believe Christians can do what ever they want to do.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I really didn't want to get into this but, here are a few verses. None of which says salvation is secured through faith and works. The problem with works is you never have the peace of knowing for sure you are saved. You never know if you've done enough to get your ticket punched.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…" John 6:40

what I've been trying to say... you can't just go "I believe" and be fine... it takes more than that... although belief is definately required...

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Christians will never realize that it isn't their decision on whom goes to hell and who doesn't.  It is His decision, not yours.  You couldn't possibly understand his decisions.  And you couldn't possibly know who is going to hell or heaven.  I wish they would start acting in accordance to their ignorance.

I, for one, am WAY ahead of you on this. I act in accordance to my ignorance all the time...When I was first born again 10 years ago, "discernment" was my mantra. I spent several years virorously attempting to separate the 'divine' from the 'heretical', which led me to roundly condemning people/denominations/beliefs all over the place. Finally, it dawned on me that judgement is not mine to pass, and as a result I've gone in completely the opposite direction. Now, i'd just rather take a "agree on the basics" approach and leave the rest. What would interest me about reading this book is whether the "misquotes" contradict or agree with the 'spirit' of the Word, and where/how.

Wow, I didn't know I had a Charlie Steiner alias. Very good posting.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

How's Bible Study with Larry goin?

Whoops, I thought you typed Bible study with Larry's groin.

 

[Mr. Chumley]

I really didn't want to get into this but, here are a few verses.  None of which says salvation is secured through faith and works. The problem with works is you never have the peace of knowing for sure you are saved.  You never know if you've done enough to get your ticket punched.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…" John 6:40

what I've been trying to say... you can't just go "I believe" and be fine... it takes more than that... although belief is definately required...

Thanks, but you missunderstand. These verses all point to faith as being the key to salvation not the need for works. If it were works you would never have the assurance of salvation. At what point have you done enough to have your ticket punched?

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Wow, I didn't know I had a Charlie Steiner alias. Very good posting.

In another lifetime on a different board, I had a different quote from Ulysses Everett McGill in my sig. Only a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart

 

[Politician Spock]

I really didn't want to get into this but, here are a few verses. None of which says salvation is secured through faith and works. The problem with works is you never have the peace of knowing for sure you are saved. You never know if you've done enough to get your ticket punched.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…" John 6:40

what I've been trying to say... you can't just go "I believe" and be fine... it takes more than that... although belief is definately required...

Thanks, but you missunderstand.....

It happens....... A LOT!!!!!!

 

[ElGatoLoco]

How's Bible Study with Larry goin?

Whoops, I thought you typed Bible study with Larry's groin.

Sinner!

 

[larry_boy_44]

I have used the Bible NUMEROUS times in the past to show you this, and every single solitary time you say that only ACTS shows us how to be saved and that the rest of the books of the NT are written for people who are already Christians. It's not even close to being true, but you won't budge from that position, so why even go there again?

are you now telling me that Romans wasn't really written to the church in Rome?? I & II Corinthians not to the church in Corinth?? Galations not to the church of Galatia??? Ephesians not to the church of Ephesus???If not written to those places, who exactly were those letters written to? Especially since the letters all refer to the intended recipient of the letter as the churches in those places...

Where did I ever claim that Romans wasn't written to the church in Rome, or that Corintians was not written to the church in Corinth, or that Galations was not written to the church in Galatia, or that Ephesians was not written to the church in Ephesus?

when you claim that romans, I & II Corinthians, etc. are not written to Christians and only Christians you claim they weren't actually written to those churches...either they were written to the churches or they weren't, and the documents themselves tell us that they were in fact written to those churches...

 

[larry_boy_44]

I was speaking in reply to the post before mine, not in reply to every definition of the word "judging" there is... when speaking of the Bible and its command not to judge others, it is one specific definition (and one that, really, isn't even in the Dictionary, unfortunately) not any/every definition...

the reason you didn't undersatnd what I was saying is because you didn't read anything except for that one instance of the word and had no real idea of what was being discussed or talked about at the time... you completely took waht was said out of context rather than thinking about what was said in relation to what was said beofre and after it...

Now you are claiming you know what I read and didn't read. You're coming really close to having a god complex here if you can do that.So, were you referring to the Hebrew definition?

(Hebrew) judgment: shephet sheh'-fet: a sentence, i.e. infliction:--judgment.

Or, the Greek?

(Greek) judgment: krisis kree'-sis: decision (subjectively or objectively, for or

against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):

--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Please enlighten me on the specific definition of judgment that you are using.

since its NT, probably the Greek... meaning: accusation, condemnation, damnation... which, contrary to I'm sure what you are saying, I am not doing...for, I am not saying you will go to hell, I am saying, from what this book tells us, that is what will happen... could there be loopholes, etc.? I will never say there won't be, but according to what God has told us, we can say whether many/most people are going to go to heaven or hell, even though if we say we know we are 100% right we would be wrong in that...

 

[larry_boy_44]

first of the two "I don't knows" are referring to two different things...

No Larry, they are referring to the exact same thing. You don't know if the Catholic is going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during their baptism, but you claim to know that I'm going to hell because the wrong words were uttered during my baptism.

I don't know if God is going to send people to hell for being disobedient to His command, you do know that His command is not actually what you are doing, you just don't care what His command actually was because you rationalized your tradition into God's command...

So in telling people that they are going to hell because the wrong words were uttered at their baptism despite the fact that they profess belief, continually serve Christ and show good fruit, you are telling them something you don't know for sure. On the other hand, I'm telling people something I know: Believe that Christ is your savior and you will have eternal life. Salvation is that simple. That's the good news. All of the commandments Jesus gave to his believers (and there are tons of them) are not prerequisits to receive Gods grace. Obedience of his commandments is evidence of one's belief. If you were to say that a person who never shows any evidence of obedience has failed to profess belief in Christ and is therefor not saved, then I would agree with that. But that is far from what you claim that even the wrong words being uttered at one's baptism is a disobeidience that will send someone to hell.

second, no matter how you put it, saying "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost" is not following what Jesus actually said in Matthew 28:19 (As He explictly said "In my name")... nor is it following the commands that Peter and Paul gave...

THEN HAVE THE PERSON WHO BAPTISES YOU SAY IT IN THE GREEK IF DOING IF EXPLICITLY IS SO IMPORTANT!

third, God put requirements on us, He did.. By the grace that you speak we don't have to do anything, we don't even have to believe, to be saved... but that makes it useless for Christ to have died, if God were going to deal with the sin in our lives, He didn't need to come and die, but He did, why? To cover our sins, not so we can go "Eh, His grace is sufficient I'll do whatever I want", which is what you are saying...

Never, never, NEVER have I said "I'll do whatever I want". You have to establish that as part of my argument to even retort it. Try actually responding to what I'm saying to see if you can retort my argument.

so if you believe and never act on it, did you really believe? IF you believe, adn there are commands of what you need to do, and you don't do them, did you really believe?

Like I said before Larry, if you were to claim that a person who never obeys(0% obedience) is not saved, I would agree with you. If they are 0% obedient, do they really believe. I can honestly say no they don't. But you are saying that even a person who got everything right except one thing (99.9999% obedience) is going to hell because uttering the right words during one's baptism is that important.

You have said you will do whatever youwant when you stick with yoru completely extra-Biblical tradition rather than doing what the Bible says we should do, you do not even have Matthew 28:19 to stand on about baptism, you simply don't care what the Bible says and it is about time you just admit it, becasue that is the jist of what you are saying... Not one place in the Bible does it ever give any indication of baptism in any other way but "In JEsus name" in some way shape or form, stop changing things to meet with the pagan traditions that your ancestors added to Chrsitanity...

Larry all of this above is a complete assumption on your part. Just because I believe God will give Grace even to disobedient believers (99% obedience is still disobedience) does not mean that I believe Christians can do what ever they want to do.

I would say that willful disobedience is not at all accepted by God, though, Spock... if you know that He wants us to be baptized in Jesus' name specifically, and you don't do it because you think something else is good enough, Id on't see why He'd accept that...