The Greatest (1 Viewer)

[jurb26]

No. Jim Brown was.

There is no way Jim Brown was a better all around football player that Payton. Brown may have been a better runner, Sanders was for sure, but no one is a better player than Payton. The guy could throw, run, catch, return kicks, and block like a son of a #####.A player is always measured by statistics, but what his peers say, in mind also holds weight, and although I looked for the source and could not find it, as it was a long time ago, there was a survey of 3 generations of football players asking who they thought was the greatest all around football player, and Payton was the clear winner. Sanders/Brown were at the top as better runners, but Payton was clearly the best RUNNING BACK, and probably is the best all around football player ever....period.

When Barry and Jim ran out in a pass pattern 2 or 3 guys followed. What poiont was there to leave these guys in and block? Better yet, who cares if they had that kind of effect anyway?

Who cares if a RB can block? In the 50's/60's when Brown played maybe, that is my point. Best player ever, not best RB. Payton's blocking, helped the QB pass to win, helped him to an MVP, helped his team to a 15-1 season, helped his team to win a Superbowl. That is the kind of effect that has, it is called team play and heart.

What effect do you think it has when a guy runs to the flat and 2 LBs or a LB and a Saftey both follow him or a DE widens out to spy him?

 

[WhoDat]

A player is always measured by statistics, but what his peers say...

Brown walked away from football at the peak of his career.

Brown was not very well liked by other players. He had a Barry Bonds type persona at a time in US History that racial relations were poor. He was a highly charged and contraversial political and social figure/activist.

Thus, his statisitcs are going to fall short of many other RB and any sort of feedback from his peer group will be skewed. Brown is never going to win any sort of vote.

If we are going to build arguements for or against a player like Brown, it is important to look at the historical context of Brown's career and the corresponding causality surrounding it.

Brown in terms of human characteristics is/was the antithesis of Walter Payton.

I would say Jerry Rice might be the best football player and both Brown and Payton are 2a and 2b.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

No. Jim Brown was.

There is no way Jim Brown was a better all around football player that Payton. Brown may have been a better runner, Sanders was for sure, but no one is a better player than Payton. The guy could throw, run, catch, return kicks, and block like a son of a #####.A player is always measured by statistics, but what his peers say, in mind also holds weight, and although I looked for the source and could not find it, as it was a long time ago, there was a survey of 3 generations of football players asking who they thought was the greatest all around football player, and Payton was the clear winner. Sanders/Brown were at the top as better runners, but Payton was clearly the best RUNNING BACK, and arguably is the best all around football player ever. Rice will get many votes, and so will Brown. but if we are talking all around player in all facets, how can Payton not win.

Payton had to take brutal hit and after brutal hit and played for a lot bad teams and always put his team first. Rice had a stellar supporting cast and lets face it, WR do not take the same kind of punishment. Walter played for one team, had the greatest heart, and would do anything for his teammates. Rice was awesome as well, and could be considered the greatest ever, but Payton was the real deal...sweetness best ever....I think so.

You & I must have seen different polls, then, because the one I saw said "Brown". That having been said, I think of all the players I saw Payton could have been the best at more positions than anyone I've ever seen.

 

[TitusIII]

Hard to say, but I can count on one hand the few that compare with him. Payton had everything a GM could want in a RB, speed, agility, hole recognition, and the ability to put 285 monsters on their ### when needed. He was the only weapon on the Bears for six or seven seasons, and teams would assign two or three spies to him on each play, however, it didn't matter, there was no one on the field that could measure up to him.

 

[chris1969]

Bo knows running

Bo knows throwing

Bo knows catching

Bo knows blocking

Does that make Bo the best player ever?

 

[Despyzer]

Bo knows runningBo knows throwingBo knows catchingBo knows blockingDoes that make Bo the best player ever?

Bo was a helluva runner for a short period of time, but he was nowhere near the receiver or blocker that Payton was. I also never saw him throw.

 

[The Scorpion]

Bo knows runningBo knows throwingBo knows catchingBo knows blockingDoes that make Bo the best player ever?

This post is so ridiculous it needs no other explanation.

 

[w34payton]

Walter Payton is the best all around football player to ever play the game.

 

[Despyzer]

If we are going to consider an old-timer like Jim Brown, I'd like to introduce Chuck Bednarik into the discussion. Bednarik was the last of the "60 minute men" that routinely played both sides of the ball every down. He was one of the best in his generation at both LB and C (both different and demanding positions). He once hit Frank Gifford so hard it gave Gifford a concussion that kept him out of football for TWO SEASONS. That hit was later dubbed "The Tackle."

 

[Despyzer]

Some SI guys have written articles about this very thing...

Rick Telander said Jerry Rice

Peter King said Don Hutson

Frank DeFord went with Johnny Unitas (but Frank grew up in Baltimore)

 

[Sweetness_34]

Yes

 

[TitusIII]

Some SI guys have written articles about this very thing...Rick Telander said Jerry RicePeter King said Don HutsonFrank DeFord went with Johnny Unitas (but Frank grew up in Baltimore)

Hence the reason I don't read this magazine anymore.

 

[chris1969]

My point is all the arguements your making, are for the greatest athlete ever and not the greatest football player. I would agree that Sweetness is definately up there, but over the lifetime of football there are at least 100 guys ranked up there as well.

You good even argue that Sweetness might not have even been the best Bear. At least #### Butkus and Mike Singletary could.

 

[Z-Dog]

Greatest football player ever was Jerry Rice.

Rice is simply staggering in his achievements. He is #1 in receptions (by 448 catches), receiving yards (by nearly 8,000 yards, 22,895 to 14,934), receiving TDs (by 67, 197 to 130), yards from scrimmage (2,000 yards better than #2 Emmith, an RB) and combined rushing+receiving TDs (207 to 175, also against Emmit). He also played in four Superbowls and won three. He's a 13-tiome Pro Bowler.Stats aren't everything, but this guy has simply dominated the NFL is a jaw-dropping manner. His numbers in many categories are 50% better than the #2 guy. There have been other great players, but nobody has been as great for as long, won as many titles, and revolutionized how offense is played like Jerry Rice.

 

[Despyzer]

Rice is simply staggering in his achievements. He is #1 in receptions (by 448 catches), receiving yards (by nearly 8,000 yards, 22,895 to 14,934), receiving TDs (by 67, 197 to 130), yards from scrimmage (2,000 yards better than #2 Emmith, an RB) and combined rushing+receiving TDs (207 to 175, also against Emmit). He also played in four Superbowls and won three. He's a 13-tiome Pro Bowler.Stats aren't everything, but this guy has simply dominated the NFL is a jaw-dropping manner. His numbers in many categories are 50% better than the #2 guy. There have been other great players, but nobody has been as great for as long, won as many titles, and revolutionized how offense is played like Jerry Rice.

What you are really arguing though is that he is the best to ever play his position. This doesn't necessarily mean he was the greatest football player (although he could be).

 

[TitusIII]

Rice is simply staggering in his achievements. He is #1 in receptions (by 448 catches), receiving yards (by nearly 8,000 yards, 22,895 to 14,934), receiving TDs (by 67, 197 to 130), yards from scrimmage (2,000 yards better than #2 Emmith, an RB) and combined rushing+receiving TDs (207 to 175, also against Emmit). He also played in four Superbowls and won three. He's a 13-tiome Pro Bowler.Stats aren't everything, but this guy has simply dominated the NFL is a jaw-dropping manner. His numbers in many categories are 50% better than the #2 guy. There have been other great players, but nobody has been as great for as long, won as many titles, and revolutionized how offense is played like Jerry Rice.

What you are really arguing though is that he is the best to ever play his position. This doesn't necessarily mean he was the greatest football player (although he could be).

Untill we find a WR that can block, run people over, and not play with two of the greatest QB's to suit up, I'll pass on Rice. Best WR ever, certainly, although Moss will make a run at his title in the next few years. Nvertheless, give me a RB, QB, DE/DT, or LB and keep WR's out of the discussion.

 

[Despyzer]

My point is all the arguements your making, are for the greatest athlete ever and not the greatest football player. I would agree that Sweetness is definately up there, but over the lifetime of football there are at least 100 guys ranked up there as well.You good even argue that Sweetness might not have even been the best Bear. At least #### Butkus and Mike Singletary could.

Step on up then, how would you quantify the greatest football player? Wouldn't he first have to be the best at his position? And how do you quantify that? I would think he would also have to be the best on his team (like you suggested). But what then? Certainly athleticism and being more than a one-trick pony have to enter into it as well.

 

[Metux]

Was just going over old film. I forgot just how great Walter was. I think He'd still be great today. Watch this and post your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-cGhC8hp8...ted&search=

I think LT2 is the guy who might be able to catch him and emmitt.

I think LT is the best. Ask Joe Thiesmen. No one dominated a game they way he did. He could play the run, pass rush and defend the pass. He gave Offensive Cordinators nightmares. He changed the postion.

 

[TitusIII]

Was just going over old film. I forgot just how great Walter was. I think He'd still be great today. Watch this and post your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-cGhC8hp8...ted&search=

I think LT2 is the guy who might be able to catch him and emmitt.

I think LT is the best. Ask Joe Thiesmen. No one dominated a game they way he did. He could play the run, pass rush and defend the pass. He gave Offensive Cordinators nightmares. He changed the postion.

Certainly one of the few guys that should be considered.

 

[Despyzer]

I think LT is the best. Ask Joe Thiesmen. No one dominated a game they way he did. He could play the run, pass rush and defend the pass. He gave Offensive Cordinators nightmares. He changed the postion.

He certainly changed the position, but I think you are overestimating his ability to do more than rush the QB from the OLB spot in the 3-4. He was unquestionably great, but for the ability to play the run and defend in space I would take Mike Singletary, Ray Nitschke, Ray Lewis, Jack Lambert, and Junior Seau over Taylor.

 

[Tau837]

IMO it is too difficult to select one football player as the greatest, because it is too hard to compare across positions. I do believe Payton is the best RB ever.

 

[chris1969]

My point is all the arguements your making, are for the greatest athlete ever and not the greatest football player. I would agree that Sweetness is definately up there, but over the lifetime of football there are at least 100 guys ranked up there as well.You good even argue that Sweetness might not have even been the best Bear. At least #### Butkus and Mike Singletary could.

Step on up then, how would you quantify the greatest football player? Wouldn't he first have to be the best at his position? And how do you quantify that? I would think he would also have to be the best on his team (like you suggested). But what then? Certainly athleticism and being more than a one-trick pony have to enter into it as well.

Sure the way I look at it, it would be the guy I would draft first if all were available in their Prime. There would be alot of guys I would think about, but to me I think I would go with Reggie White Round 1 Pick 1. If I was going RB, it would be a toss up between LT and Sweetness. They are alot alike.

 

[Despyzer]

Sure the way I look at it, it would be the guy I would draft first if all were available in their Prime.

I like that logic.

 

[jon_mx]

Tatum Bell?

 

[FairWarning]

Tomlinson is the modern day Payton.

 

[chris1969]

I like to hear all the arguments between Rice and Walter though. They had the same work ethic.

 

[Ozymandias]

When talking about the greatest, you really have to measure him against his contemporaries. The game changes, better training methods, etc.etc. How much better was "the greatest", than his contemporaries?

Walter Payton was an extraordinary football player. He played 13 seasons, rarely got injured, was a model citizen. His longevity, for a running back, is legendary.

In 13 years in the NFL, he led the NFL in rushing yards once. He led the NFL in yards from scrimmage twice. He rushed for more than 5 yards a carry once.

Jim Brown, in nine seasons, led the NFL in rushing five times. He led the NFL in yards from scrimmage four times. He rushed for more than 5 yards a carry five times, and averaged more than 5 yards for his career.

If you are talking dominance, it was Jim Brown.

 

[chris1969]

When talking about the greatest, you really have to measure him against his contemporaries. The game changes, better training methods, etc.etc. How much better was "the greatest", than his contemporaries?Walter Payton was an extraordinary football player. He played 13 seasons, rarely got injured, was a model citizen. His longevity, for a running back, is legendary.In 13 years in the NFL, he led the NFL in rushing yards once. He led the NFL in yards from scrimmage twice. He rushed for more than 5 yards a carry once.Jim Brown, in nine seasons, led the NFL in rushing five times. He led the NFL in yards from scrimmage four times. He rushed for more than 5 yards a carry five times, and averaged more than 5 yards for his career.If you are talking dominance, it was Jim Brown.

I don't think it's dominance.Deon was dominate and I wouldn't consider him in my top 100I'm a browns fan and i'd take Payton over Brown.It's a lunchpail thing and Brown didn't bring one.

 

[OneEastRiver]

Greatest football player ever was Jerry Rice.

Rice is simply staggering in his achievements. He is #1 in receptions (by 448 catches), receiving yards (by nearly 8,000 yards, 22,895 to 14,934), receiving TDs (by 67, 197 to 130), yards from scrimmage (2,000 yards better than #2 Emmith, an RB) and combined rushing+receiving TDs (207 to 175, also against Emmit). He also played in four Superbowls and won three. He's a 13-tiome Pro Bowler.

Stats aren't everything, but this guy has simply dominated the NFL is a jaw-dropping manner. His numbers in many categories are 50% better than the #2 guy. There have been other great players, but nobody has been as great for as long, won as many titles, and revolutionized how offense is played like Jerry Rice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PSKOc6qRxI

 

[Tau837]

My thoughts on Payton.

He WAS the offense

QBs he played with: Bob Avellini, Bobby Douglass, Gary Huff, Virgil Carter, Vince Evans, Mike Phipps, Jim McMahon, Steve Fuller, Greg Landry, Rusty Lisch, Mike Tomczak, Doug Flutie, Jim Harbaugh. Heck, Payton himself lined up at QB a few times. Basically, Jim McMahon was the best he played with. That's not saying much.

Payton played with 1 Pro Bowl QB in 13 seasons: McMahon in 1985. (And why exactly did McMahon make the Pro Bowl? The Bears passing offense was 22nd in yards and 23rd in TDs... McMahon threw for 2392 yards and 15 TDs. )

Not only did he never play with a 1000 yard receiver, he never even played with a 900 yard receiver. In fact, only 3 times in his 13 year career did any Bears receiver top 800 yards, and only 3 other times did any Bears receiver top 700 yards. And there were no good receiving TEs, either. It should come as no surprise that no Bears WR or TE made the Pro Bowl during Payton's career.

To reinforce this, consider Chicago's pass yardage ranks during Payton's career: 23 (of 26), 28 (of 28), 21, 26, 26, 28, 28, 22, 17, 26, 22, 24, 14. They finished in the bottom quarter of the league 10 times in Payton's career.

Payton himself led the Bears in receptions 6 times, and had the second highest total on the team 5 other times.

In his last few years, his offensive lines were pretty good, but for most of his career it wasn't. Two of Payton's linemen made the Pro Bowl a total of 5 times in his 13 seasons, all in his final 3 seasons: Jim Covert (1985, 1986), and Jay Hilgenberg (1985, 1986, 1987).

Compared to Jim Brown

Brown is the only back I would consider comparing to Payton, and I admit I didn't see him play, so that may bias my opinion. That said, consider that Brown joined a dynasty.

1950-56 (pre-Brown): 63-20-1 (.759), 6 postseason appearances in 7 years, 6 championship games, 3 championships

1957-1965 (with Brown): 79-34-5 (.699), 5 postseason appearances in 9 years, 3 championship games, 1 championship

Now compare that to Payton and the Bears:

1968-1974 (pre-Payton): 31-66-1 (.320), no postseason appearances

1975-1987 (with Payton): 111-83 (.572), 6 postseason appearances, 1 championship

How about a supporting cast comparison? Payton's is addressed above. It seems very hard to support the notion that the Browns were not already a very, very good team when Brown joined them, which naturally implies that he was surrounded by a talented group of teammates. Remember, there was no free agency (or draft?) at that time, so it would be very hard for me to see how the talent level of a team that appeared in 6 championship games in the 7 years prior to Brown's rookie season had suddenly dropped to average or worse. This is supported by the number of Pro Bowlers Brown played with:

- Browns QBs made the Pro Bowl 4 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Milt Plum (1960, 1961), Frank Ryan (1964, 1965).

- Browns WRs made the Pro Bowl 5 times in Brown's 9 seasons: Ray Renfro (1957, 1960), Bobby Mitchell (1960), Paul Warfield (1964), and Gary Collins (1965).

- Brown played with the following Pro Bowl offensive linemen: Art Hunter (1959), Mike McCormack (1957, 1960, 1961, 1962), Jim Smith (1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962), John Morrow (1961, 1963), #### Schafrath (1963), Gene Hickerson (1965), John Wooten (1965). That's 7 different linemen for a total of 15 times in 9 seasons, and only one season without a Pro Bowler--1964. In 6 of his seasons, Brown had 2 or more Pro Bowlers on the line.

To be fair, there were fewer teams when Brown played, so it stands to reason he would have played with more Pro Bowlers. Still, the difference is too big to be accounted for simply by that IMO.

The fewer teams also made it easier for Brown to lead the NFL in rushing, to win awards, etc.--less competition. Brown played when there were only 12-14 teams. In Payton's first season, there were 26 teams; for the rest of his career there were 28. As one example, Brown was 1st team All NFL 8 times, Payton 7 times. It is also true that as many as 4 RBs were selected to 1st team All NFL in Brown's career. Only 3 times was he selected as 1 of only 2 RBs chosen. Meanwhile, Payton made it 4 times as 1 of 2 RBs selected, and from a much bigger RB pool. So I am more impressed with Payton's 7 times, given the number of RBs he competed with was at least twice as many as Brown.

Also, BlueOnion posted this in an older thread:

I actually like Jim Brown quite a bit, probably more so now as a person. But Jim Brown had it easy.

Not that I am saying he is not the best running back of all-time, but if I was to make an argument he was not, here is what I would start with.

1) He played in an era where all the great 'athletes' played on offense. The football players that were not athletic enough to make the offensive team but still showed a lot of heart or toughness were put on the defensive side of the ball. The thought that a defensive line could potentially have better athletes than the offensive line (in any given game) would be very, very unlikely.

2) Pursuit angles. Back in Jim Brown's era, coaches did not understand the importance of pursuit angles or containment and did not teach it to the same magnitude of today's game. Defenses were basically, "just go get the ball carrier".

I certainly can't verify whether these are valid points, but I found them interesting.Brown was obviously an all time great player. I just don't see evidence that Brown was better than Payton. Again, I admit that could be because I never saw him play with my own eyes, while I did see Payton play often.

Conclusion

Payton's accomplishments are more impressive than Jim Brown's (or any other RB's), IMO.