The impact of losing Steve Hutchinson has been huge. (1 Viewer)

[Biabreakable]

In these many years of following football I have always thought that the ability of teams offensive lines has a lot to do with teams success and the success of the skill player positions reliant on thier blocking.

However in past years we have seen runningbacks have success behind below average ability offensive lines and teams such as San Diego the Dolphins and Atlanta significantly improve thier oline and offense through scheme and coaching without a great investment made in offensive line player talent through the draft or free agency.

This past offseason we saw the biggest investment made for an offensive guard ever when the Vikings signed Steve Hutchinson away from the former super bowl contending Seahawks. Some people saw this as a huge addition to the Vikings offense and a blow to Seattle. Others.. not so much.

There isn't a lot of history to go on about the impact of elite offensive line talent switching teams while those players are still in thier prime. Most teams have been able to resign thier best lineman (ushualy LT) only letting them go when they have aged past thier prime or lost somthing due to injury or other reasons.

In terms of FF it is hard to track the ability of offensive linemen compared to thier peers. There are no consistent stats for Olinemen to compare them by that do not have somthing to do with other players on the team such as skill players or thier other line members. Sacks given up is one but only tells you somthing about the linemans ability as a pass blocker while there is still some connection with this stat and the Qb as well as other blockers who may have done somthing wrong.

You can look at offensive lines as a whole in terms of rushing and passing success for thier offense. But this is a team effort that is difficult to be sure how much the line itself has to do with it much less an individual lineman.

I did find somthing interesting though when looking at points giving up by defensive lineman today.

Accoding to my leagues scoring Seattle has given up the 2nd most points to defensive line players in the entire league. Only the Jets who are starting several rookies have given up more to defensive lineman after 7 games nearing the halfway point.

Team Dline points given up

Jets 181.0

Seahawks 174.8

Bills 173.6

Raiders 164.7

Browns 155.5

Texans 153.4

Lions 150.0

Cardinals 150.0

Patriots 145.0

Dolphins 141.5

Cowboys 139.2

With exception of the Patriots and Seattle this top 10 list of points given up by teams to Dlinemen looks consistent with the teams that have the worst offensive lines in the league. Cleveland and the Lions have had significant injuries to thier best Olinemen and were not considered to be good before losing them.

In the past couple years the Seahawks have been considered a top 5 offensive line and arguably the best in the league before Hutchinson left in free agency. With Hutch gone the Seahawks have lost Shaun Alexander to injury and now Hasselbeck. This could be argued as a chicken and egg situation/effect but I do think it begs the question about if SA and Hass would be healthy right now if Hutch were still protecting them. SA was definitly not performing as well as normal in the early going without Hutch before he was injured.

Last year Seattle was the number one offense in points scored and 2nd in yardage gained. 3rd in rushing yards and 13th in passing yards respectivly.

In 2004 Seattle was 12th in points and 8th in total yardage gained. 8th in rushing yards and 13th in passing yards respectivly.

2003 Seattle was 7th in points and 6th in total yardage gained. 10th in rusing yards and 7th in passing yards respectivly.

What has been most significant about Seattles offense over the past 3 years is not only thier excellence but also thier balance running/passing. No other team has been so balanced imo with teams like Denver Atlanta KC and Pittsburgh dominating as rushing teams and the Colts Vikings and Rams as passing teams. Seattle was doing both.

Now with Htuchinson gone Seattle is 19th in points scored and 23rd in total yards. 20th in rushing yards and 17th in passing yards respectivly. A far cry from what they have been doing consitently over the past 3 years.

 

[the rover]

The fact that Walter Jones has become nearly immobile is being heavily overlooked. He looks very slow, and he's getting beaten a lot, which never used to happen. Hutchinson's been a blow, but Jones just is not playing like a premier tackle this season.

 

[Gopher State]

Hutchinson has been a big improvement for MN. It seemed like MN could not establish the run at all last year, then they add Hutch, and bring in a back up running back (Taylor), and now Taylor is second in the NFL with 590 rushing yards (Tiki number one). As MN homer it seemed like to much money to pay Hutchinson, but now he looks like the steal of the FA class of 2006. Hutchinson brings 100 percent on every play.

 

[chris1969]

That's an interesting way of grading an O-line. You could get a better idea on specific players if you looked at defensive points by position. ie... If a teams gives up the most points to NT's it's probably the center that's the weak link. I would guess though that this grading method would have a bias toward pass blocking since a sack is worth more than a tackle.

 

[ren hoek]

I applaud this thread. Unfortunately I don't believe there will ever be a way to evaluate individual offensive line players.

However. Don't forget that the Vikings got their All-Pro Center back from injury this year also. That's two All-Pros which they added to their offensive line as upgrades over last season.

 

[fruity pebbles]

The fact that Walter Jones has become nearly immobile is being heavily overlooked. He looks very slow, and he's getting beaten a lot, which never used to happen. Hutchinson's been a blow, but Jones just is not playing like a premier tackle this season.

Agree with that. Losing hutch was big but Jones is really showing his age this year and that may be an even bigger factor.

 

[TME]

I would not attribute Seattle's woes to losing Hutch. If that was the case, then Seattle's loss would be MN gain. But, MN has gone from a team averaging 288 yards with 91 rushing and 19 points in 2005 to 326 yards with 116 rushing and 20 points in 2006. Respectable yardage pickups, but I would attribute that to Childress and the offensive philosophy he brings coupled with the addition of Taylor. Scoring is still relatively flat and middle of the pack.

I just don't think a guard impacts the game very dramatically and to invest so much in a guard is going to haunt them down the line. What are they going to do when they actually have to pay a QB real money?

 

[Banger]

I would not attribute Seattle's woes to losing Hutch. If that was the case, then Seattle's loss would be MN gain. But, MN has gone from a team averaging 288 yards with 91 rushing and 19 points in 2005 to 326 yards with 116 rushing and 20 points in 2006. Respectable yardage pickups, but I would attribute that to Childress and the offensive philosophy he brings coupled with the addition of Taylor. Scoring is still relatively flat and middle of the pack.I just don't think a guard impacts the game very dramatically and to invest so much in a guard is going to haunt them down the line. What are they going to do when they actually have to pay a QB real money?

He absolutely means that much. That's why Seattle was so upset when they signed him. They knew and knowledgable footballers know what a stud lineman like that means. The Vikes are 4-2 and right in the mix with no good skill players on their offense. The line is allowing them to pickup 1st downs and keep drives alive.

 

[Byron_nyc]

This is a great thread. It really shows us FF'ers what the GMs already know and show with their purse strings: guards are the second most important position in football after quarterbacks. Seattle ran left, ran left, ran left to the superbowl last year. This year -- they are sputtering. Chester Taylor is second in rushing yards in the NFL. No really advanced statistical measurements are needed, IMO. I think who is on the O-line -- and how long they've been together -- is more important than who totes the ball in the rushing game.

I think the loss of Hutch and the resulting decline of the Hawks offense, is one of the two biggest stories in football this year. The second is the historic run of the Denver defense. But the media would rather breathlessly follow every antic of you-know-who.

 

[chris1969]

You should change the title on this thread, I'd like to see more opinions on that grading system.

 

[Sea Bass]

It hurts

 

[onionsack]

This is a great thread. It really shows us FF'ers what the GMs already know and show with their purse strings: guards are the second most important position in football after quarterbacks. Seattle ran left, ran left, ran left to the superbowl last year. This year -- they are sputtering. Chester Taylor is second in rushing yards in the NFL. No really advanced statistical measurements are needed, IMO. I think who is on the O-line -- and how long they've been together -- is more important than who totes the ball in the rushing game.

I think the loss of Hutch and the resulting decline of the Hawks offense, is one of the two biggest stories in football this year. The second is the historic run of the Denver defense. But the media would rather breathlessly follow every antic of you-know-who.

Most would argue that it's left tackles but I completely agree with your point: it's not sexy, but games are won and lost by the relatively anonymous big uglies in the trenches.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

The fact that Walter Jones has become nearly immobile is being heavily overlooked. He looks very slow, and he's getting beaten a lot, which never used to happen. Hutchinson's been a blow, but Jones just is not playing like a premier tackle this season.

Agree with that. Losing hutch was big but Jones is really showing his age this year and that may be an even bigger factor.

i didn't realize how old jones was... i thought ogden was older, but jones is a little older & they both turn 33 in 07 (orlando pace is about one year younger, i think)...ogden really started to drop off last year, & he hasn't dominated for a few years... jones was definitely playing at a high level last year... pace also hasn't been as dominant for past year or two (these guys have been the consensus best three LTs for a few years, but not sure that is still the case)...how many elite LTs play well to 35 & beyond?jackie slater played a long time, but that dude was probably a mutant... was bruce matthews LT in TEN for a long time, but i don't know if he was in the jones/pace/ogden class last few years... his brother clay was another genetic freak that was still playing LB at pretty high level for CLE until he was about 40!if jones is on the decline, TOO, compounding the hutchinson loss, the left side of their OL could look dramatically different soon...

 

[Biabreakable]

You should change the title on this thread, I'd like to see more opinions on that grading system.

What do you think the thread title should be?I apprechiate the comments and discussion on this situation. I started this thread origninaly as a IDP forum topic before deciding that it should be a SP topic as well because the main conclusion I am coming to is dramatic effect of losing a elite Oline player can have on a offense as a whole. I have seen this happen before. The Viking offense and Daunte Culpepper really struggled last year compared to previous seasons without having Matt Birk at center. Many people think that was the result of losing Randy Moss which definitly matters. But perhaps not more than not having Birk did.The Viking offense also struggled in 2001 when they lost Korey Stringer and Todd Stuessie at thier LT and RT positions. The Viking offense fell from being top 5 in points scored and yardage gained the previous 3 years to 24th in points scored and 12th in yardage gained while still having Randy Moss and Chris Carter.It is more dificult to quantify how Steve Hutchinson has improved the Viking offense. The offense does not have any elite skill position players right now. All due respect to Chester Taylor and I am one of his biggest fans but he is not a great Rb. He is well rounded but only slightly above average imho. That he is 2nd in the league in rushing yards gained at this point I think is greatly attributed to the Oline play moreso than Taylors abilities as a Rb. However the main thing I am taking out of this is the negative impact of losing a elite Oline player has on an offense rather than the positive impact that adding a elite talent to the Oline has on one. Thus the title of the this thread.Once again linemen get talked about moreso for when they are doing somthing bad than when they are doing somthing good.Right now Larry Johnson is still doing well with Shields and Watters blocking for him. Although not as good as when Priest had them Tait and Roaf.. what happens with him without Shields? Then without Watters?In answer to your question about the Dline stats vs. Oline I did take those numbers from a dynasty league. So I have historical data from that league as well.In 2005 Seattle was much more effective in neutralising defenisve linemen. they were 7th best in the league at this in 2005. They gave up 285 total points to Dlinemen over 16 games. So 17.8 pts/game using the same scoring compared to the 29.1 pts/game given up so far in thier 6 games this season which would pro rate out to 466.1 pts on the year. That means that defensive linemen are making 39% more plays this year against the Seahawks than they did last year.In 2004 Seattle was 12th best vs. Dlinemen giving up 299.6 total points or 18.7 pts/game.

 

[chris1969]

Something to get the number crunchers in here like "grading offensive lines" or something.

 

[Biabreakable]

As far as individual statistics for Dline players vs. individual Olinemen that is a bit more difficult to track as defensive players shift and stunt and the player on defense who ultimatly makes the tackle/sack pass defensed forced fumble interception ect. is not always the player who really disrupted the play..

However using the same scoring system:

week 1 Shaun Rogers DT Detriot lining up against Seattle LG was the 4th best scoring Dlineman of the week 5 tackles 2 sacks.

week 2 Darnell Dockett DT lining up against Seattle LG was the 5th best scoring Dlineman of the week 8 tackles 4 assisted tackles 1 sack.

week 3 Fred Robbins DT lining up against Seattle LG was the 11th best scoring Dlineman of the week 4 tackles 1 assisted tackle 1 interception 1 pass defensed.

week 4 Tommie Harris DT lining up against Seattle LG was the 13th best scoring Dlineman of the week 3 tackles 2 sacks.

week 5 bye

week 6 Jimmy Kennedy DT lining up against Seattle LG was tied for 30th best scoring Dlineman of the week 4 tackles 1 fumble recovery.

week 7 Kevin Williams DT lining up against Seattle LG was the 2nd best scoring Dlineman of the week 4 tackles 1 fumble recovery 1 TD 1 sack 1 pass defensed.

Every Dlineman play against Seattles LG position has performed above average in every game so far this season including players like Robbinns and Kennedy who are average players at thier positions at best.

 

[Kleck]

How does this thread continue without Rob Sims getting mentioned?

 

[turnit643]

Hey, good thread here - some interesting ideas. Nothing to add at this point, just wanted to put a dot on it.



Also, a comment on the changing the title suggestion ... I only stopped in because I just acquired SA and had some specific interest in the SEA O-line. A more general O-line-ish heading would bring a bigger crowd I think.

 

[Getinthemix]

This is a great thread. It really shows us FF'ers what the GMs already know and show with their purse strings: guards are the second most important position in football after quarterbacks. Seattle ran left, ran left, ran left to the superbowl last year. This year -- they are sputtering. Chester Taylor is second in rushing yards in the NFL. No really advanced statistical measurements are needed, IMO. I think who is on the O-line -- and how long they've been together -- is more important than who totes the ball in the rushing game.I think the loss of Hutch and the resulting decline of the Hawks offense, is one of the two biggest stories in football this year. The second is the historic run of the Denver defense. But the media would rather breathlessly follow every antic of you-know-who.

What?Guards do not make more than OT's. Come on now.

 

[delusional]

I think its borderline.

Minn doesn't look like this studded OL.

Seattle is just hurt. Nothing can get going left center or right

 

[redman]

Maurice Morris is also a big step down from Sean Alexander, so opposing defenses don't have to respect the run nearly as much. You're right though, Hutchinson's absence seems right now to be the single biggest reason for the change in Seattle's offense from last year to this year though.

 

[Biabreakable]

Now that Redman posted I remember the effect of not having Jon Jansen had on the Skins offense and Clinton Portis more specificly being pretty huge as well.

 

[Troutfarmer]

Biabreakable, I was offered a trade for Alexander last night, and checked this board to see if I should pull the trigger.

BANG. I got Frank Gore and Larry Fitz.

Thanks for such an informative, timely post. Awesome.

ps I like your tag from Watership Down too. Frith in a Pond!

 

[chris1969]

If I bump it they will come