The Mathematics of God's plan (1 Viewer)

[Jayrok]

As I read Scripture, I don't see that anyone was considered righteous because of their works or their ability to follow the Law. People were considered righteous because of their faith in God.

Matthew 5:17-20 -- "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This whole exchange is about the law. Jesus is saying the Pharisees know the law. In verse 20, he tells them that unless their righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law... etc.

In this instance, he isn't talking about faith in God, but the ability to follow the law. Do you think he calls the pharisees and the teachers of the law righteous because of their faith in God... or their expertise in the law?

 

[Jayrok]

How about Luke 1:5-6 -- 5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

These are John the Baptist's parents. They were considered righteous before God as they observed all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

Luke doesn't report that they were unable to follow the laws because they were impossible.

There are others.

 

[Black Box]

I am going to respond to a number of your points at once because they seem to boil down to the same objection:

The predisposition towards hell for all mankind is the thing at issue here, the ratio that results is only a symptom.

In otherwords, if we were all born into this world without sin, and there was a real possibility that we could live a sinless life if we wanted to, but some did, and some didn't, that would make more sense to me. If we were truly "Free" from birth, unfettered by burdens of our forefathers, or of our raging hormones, or societal tendencies, such that our resting state was neither totally good, or totally sinful, but rather somewhere smack in the middle, the concept of God saving the sinners would be much better. BUt the present premise, in which we ALL require salvation from the situation in which God put us is the problem. That problem results in the majority of humans going to hell. Jayrok's math is only the result of the fundamental tendency for all of mankind to go to hell. If that tendency weren't there, there would be less of an objection (for me, can't speak for him).

So therefore, from man's eyes, God's actions should seem fair and just, for why would we believe in an unjust and unfair God? Why would we want to worship him and be with him for eternity, if he throws away 3/4 people born due to his premise?

Granted, if God exists, and he's the God you believe in, it doesn't really matter what we think of him. But the issue is that we're not sure he exists, but if he does exist, he should make sense to us and if we believe he's a "just" God, and our concepts of justice come from him, then at the least, his fundamental approach towards mankind should be Just as well.

I think your main point (as was in the other thread) is that the idea of all mankind being sinners does not demonstrate justice as God set the stage for this to happen.

The main answer I remember getting was that I'm approaching the concept backwards. Instead of focusing on his grace, i'm focusing on the burden he gave us. Instead of focusing on the good associated with christianity, i'm focusing on the negative.

I do think this is how the thread ended, and there is some truth to this.. but you obviously remain unconvinced. I don't think I can add anything to that thread other than my own personal views on this issue. I believe that Adam and Eve had true freedom whether or not to eat. They could have equally chosen to obey or disobey. Why did God do this? I think it was to allow Adam and Even a chance to truly love God. They were not compelled to love or obey, but God wanted them to want to. That is true love and obedience. Anything else falls short. However, they chose to disobey, opening a pandora's box of sorts. As for that impact on myself, yes, my tendency is towards sin, but that does not excuse the fact that I do sin. There are consequences to my actions for which I am responsible for, regardless of what hand I was dealt. Normally I would greatly object to that statement, except I am free to fold this hand. I am free to recognize my condition and seek a way out. Which God provided through Christ. That is the best I can describe my position, and I do not see it as unfair or blaming God or anything like that at all. I know you do, and I cannot make you see it any other way. But I just wanted to share with you the way I see the situation, and that it is possible to see things differently.

You're right on the level of insanity. The answers you provided were quite reasonable, but they all start with the supposition, based on faith, that you are right. You then attempt to make explanations on why you're right, and any number of explanations could be reasonable and fit. But the process for safe conclusions isn't "Take an answer on faith, then come up with possible explanations." That's the problem I have with the concept of taking truth on faith, and then throwing out possible answers to satisfy it. Using that approach, there is no way anyone can disprove a belief, because there are always possible/plausible answers. And at worst, when you can't come up with a possible/plausible answer, christians resort to the "finite mind, infinite God" clause.

Well, to be fair, the OP was writing within the framework of the Christian God, and laid out attributes of such. He then went on to say that within this framework the whole ratio thing doesn't make sense. I responded by saying that it can make sense within the framework, and here are some ways it can make sense. So, yes, I do take the framework by faith (to an extent), but to challenge the framework with this objection by trying to prove an internal contradiction fails.As for there always being possible/plausible answers, well, maybe that is an evidence that the framework may be true?

But I do understand the frustration in discussing these things because of the "finite mind, infinite God" clause. But look at it this way... you can't have all your answers answered, in any realm. Take science. Hard, concrete, evidential science. Does it have all the answers? Of course not. Do we know how the brain works? How did ambiogenesis occur? What answer will you get? "We don't know, but we'll figure it out in the future". And that is an acceptable answer as it takes time to uncover things scientifically (hence, it makes sense).

Just as the answer "finite mind, infinite God" works in the supernatural realm because it is to be expected that a finite mind cannot comprehend an infinite God. That is very comprehendable, and even makes sense (I think)

 

[babydemon90]

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. 

I'm curious, if our finite minds cannot comprehend God, how does anyone claim to know with 100% certainty that they know the one and only way into heaven? Doesn't knowing that presuppose some insight and knowledge into God and his motives? Of course, if finite cannot comprehend infinite, then none of us, including Paul and the apostles, ever can fully comprehend the 100% truth.

Ah, but you see... Paul and the apostles were divinely inspired by God through the holy spirit.In other words, it wasn't Paul and the apostles speaking/writing to the churches and us. It was the HS. So, it wasn't Paul's idea that women should keep silent in church and keep their head covered as not to bring shame upon them... it was God saying this.

But Joyce Meyer and the like didn't agree.

Why do we think all of Paul's letters were divinely inspired?

 

[babydemon90]

No, PAUL couldn't be clearer.  Except that it also says if you want eternal life, keep the commandments.  Maybe you also need to keep the Judaic Law?  If people like Peter that spent years following Jesus around thought Christians needed to follow the Jewish law, it obviously isn't that cut and dried.  And Paul also was human - so he, as well as us, had no way of fully comprehending the knowledge of God.

Except that when Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments He knew that it was impossible for any man to keep the commandments. He made that pretty clear in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus was making the point that the only way to have eternal life is to put Him first. That's why when the man replied (incorrectly) that he had kept all of the commandments Jesus told him to sell everything and follow Him. The message is in the entire exchange, not just one verse.

First, I believe BabyDemon is correct that the Epistles of Paul is fairly clear about salvation through grace. But the rest of the bible is not so clear. And I agree with you that the message is the entire exchange, not one verse. So what about the rest of the exchange?

Jesus told the Rich man to keep the commandments if he wanted eternal life. The man replied that he had kept them. At this point, Jesus does not tell him he is mistaken, nor elude to the fact that keeping the laws really have nothing to do with entering heaven. Instead, he tells the man if he wants to be perfect, then sell his things and give to the poor, then follow him. If he does this, he will have treasures in heaven.

In this exchange, it appears that to go to heaven, you need to keep the laws. But to receive rewards in heaven, you have to be perfect... sell your things, leave your family and follow Jesus.

Jesus does not correct the man and say the laws are useless in the grand scheme of things, as paul does. In the sermon on the mount, he encourages his followers to be "perfect". That is, give up yourself. For this, you will receive treasures in heaven.

But he does not clarify by saying to "Enter heaven" you must sell your things and follow him.

So do you think that when Jesus told people to "be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect" He meant people to take that literally? Or was He using hyperbole to make a point that nobody could ever be good enough on their own by following the Law?

I think he wanted people to continue to obey the Law.Matthew 5 --- 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

The whole point here is not a debate about salvation, but that a debate CAN be made about salvation. As many here have said, we are finite, mortal beings who cannot understand the nature of God. So -how is it possible for you to claim complete understanding here? A good argument can be made that obedience to the law is also required according Jesus - and whether or not you disagree with that argument, I do not see how you can deny that it IS a valid point.

 

[Jayrok]

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. 

I'm curious, if our finite minds cannot comprehend God, how does anyone claim to know with 100% certainty that they know the one and only way into heaven? Doesn't knowing that presuppose some insight and knowledge into God and his motives? Of course, if finite cannot comprehend infinite, then none of us, including Paul and the apostles, ever can fully comprehend the 100% truth.

Ah, but you see... Paul and the apostles were divinely inspired by God through the holy spirit.In other words, it wasn't Paul and the apostles speaking/writing to the churches and us. It was the HS. So, it wasn't Paul's idea that women should keep silent in church and keep their head covered as not to bring shame upon them... it was God saying this.

But Joyce Meyer and the like didn't agree.

Why do we think all of Paul's letters were divinely inspired?

My response was tongue in cheek. I don't think they were inspired.

 

[Black Box]

The whole point here is not a debate about salvation, but that a debate CAN be made about salvation. As many here have said, we are finite, mortal beings who cannot understand the nature of God. So -how is it possible for you to claim complete understanding here? A good argument can be made that obedience to the law is also required according Jesus - and whether or not you disagree with that argument, I do not see how you can deny that it IS a valid point.

Take two...

 

[babydemon90]

The whole point here is not a debate about salvation, but that a debate CAN be made about salvation.  As many here have said, we are finite, mortal beings who cannot understand the nature of God. So -how is it possible for you to claim complete understanding here?  A good argument can be made that obedience to the law is also required according Jesus - and whether or not you disagree with that argument, I do not see how you can deny that it IS a valid point.

Take two...

I read what you said.... so the only truths about God that we can understand are those that Jesus specifically told us?

 

[Black Box]

You, nor I, nor anyone else can "prove" or "disprove" them, but that is the nature of what we are discussing, and I think you realize that. But I think it is false to say

The premise is biblical, so that seems to indicate that the bible doesn't make sense here.

when possible options do exist. I grant you that you believe the simplest answer is to wipe out ~2000 years of Christian belief on the basis of this discussion, because I cannot prove what the simplest answer is. But I disagree with that assessment, obviously, and that is my opinion

To you, 2000 years of belief seems to add credence to a belief, otherwise, why cite that number? But remember, for thousands more years, other erroneous theories were held by people, so keep that in mind before you assume that just because something is believed by a large number of people for a large number of years it has added credibility.I'm not attempting, or seeking to wipe out any number of years of belief. I'm attempting to credit or discredit fundamental beliefs. If they're true, they're true, regardless of who believes it and for how long, and if they're false, they're false, regardless of who believes it or for how long people have believed it. That's the underlying issue approached here.

Good point. Point taken.

 

[Black Box]

The whole point here is not a debate about salvation, but that a debate CAN be made about salvation. As many here have said, we are finite, mortal beings who cannot understand the nature of God. So -how is it possible for you to claim complete understanding here? A good argument can be made that obedience to the law is also required according Jesus - and whether or not you disagree with that argument, I do not see how you can deny that it IS a valid point.

Take two...

I read what you said.... so the only truths about God that we can understand are those that Jesus specifically told us?

That's fine, but you didn't respond to it the first time around, then reasserted the argument later The Christian knowledge of God comes from many sources, but the ones that come from Christ are pretty major, considering that Jesus = God in the Christian belief system. So, in this case, we can understand salvation because Christ communicated it to us. I think the issue here is the interpretation of that communication, no?

 

[babydemon90]

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. 

I'm curious, if our finite minds cannot comprehend God, how does anyone claim to know with 100% certainty that they know the one and only way into heaven? Doesn't knowing that presuppose some insight and knowledge into God and his motives? Of course, if finite cannot comprehend infinite, then none of us, including Paul and the apostles, ever can fully comprehend the 100% truth.

Ah, but you see... Paul and the apostles were divinely inspired by God through the holy spirit.In other words, it wasn't Paul and the apostles speaking/writing to the churches and us. It was the HS. So, it wasn't Paul's idea that women should keep silent in church and keep their head covered as not to bring shame upon them... it was God saying this.

But Joyce Meyer and the like didn't agree.

Why do we think all of Paul's letters were divinely inspired?

My response was tongue in cheek. I don't think they were inspired.

but somehow people in general decided that Paul's letters are all divinely inspired...Cross and LarryBoy obviously do. Why?

 

[Jayrok]

Good points!

But, jayrock, our finite human minds cannot comprehend the reasons for why God does what he does. 

I'm curious, if our finite minds cannot comprehend God, how does anyone claim to know with 100% certainty that they know the one and only way into heaven? Doesn't knowing that presuppose some insight and knowledge into God and his motives? Of course, if finite cannot comprehend infinite, then none of us, including Paul and the apostles, ever can fully comprehend the 100% truth.

Ah, but you see... Paul and the apostles were divinely inspired by God through the holy spirit.In other words, it wasn't Paul and the apostles speaking/writing to the churches and us. It was the HS. So, it wasn't Paul's idea that women should keep silent in church and keep their head covered as not to bring shame upon them... it was God saying this.

But Joyce Meyer and the like didn't agree.

Why do we think all of Paul's letters were divinely inspired?

My response was tongue in cheek. I don't think they were inspired.

but somehow people in general decided that Paul's letters are all divinely inspired...Cross and LarryBoy obviously do. Why?

Because the bible tells them so. They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself. The bible is therefore used to defend the bible. The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired. Make sense?

 

[babydemon90]

The Christian knowledge of God comes from many sources, but the ones that come from Christ are pretty major, considering that Jesus = God in the Christian belief system. So, in this case, we can understand salvation because Christ communicated it to us. I think the issue here is the interpretation of that communication, no?

So our knowledge of salvation comes from Jesus...

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus being "the way" is one thing - but that still leaves open a vast realm of interpretation to how exactly "the way" is utilized. Faith in Jesus? Obedience to Jesus words? Living your life as Jesus lived his?Of course, at the tomb of Lazarus, we have this,

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

But we still don't have a clear picture - some places it seems we need to also be baptized, some places we need to combine belief with obedience to the law and/or giving to the poor. And, as a side note, why is the story of Lazarus only in John? Seems a pretty major event...

 

[babydemon90]

Because the bible tells them so. They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself. The bible is therefore used to defend the bible. The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired.

Make sense?

Other then a single verse in II Timothy, are there any other verses claiming divine inspiration? And what Scriptures was the author of II Timothy referring to? Surely he wasnlt referring to the letter he himself was writing, as it would not have been considered "Scripture" at that time...in fact, wouldn;t most of the New Testament not have been considered Scripture until long after that verse was written? So the author of II Timothy cannot be construed as referring to those writings...

 

[Jayrok]

Because the bible tells them so.  They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself.  The bible is therefore used to defend the bible.  The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired. 

Make sense?

Other then a single verse in II Timothy, are there any other verses claiming divine inspiration? And what Scriptures was the author of II Timothy referring to? Surely he wasnlt referring to the letter he himself was writing, as it would not have been considered "Scripture" at that time...in fact, wouldn;t most of the New Testament not have been considered Scripture until long after that verse was written? So the author of II Timothy cannot be construed as referring to those writings...

According to 1 Cor 2:13, Paul believes his written words are divinely inspired. His words are from the spirit of God, not himself. But you are correct.. when 2 Tim was written there was no canon of NT scripture. At that time, the scripture was the Hebrew scriptures, which seems a bit odd since the NT sort of supersedes much of the OT scriptures.

Maybe the divinely inspired scripture was replaced with other, new divinely inspired scripture..

 

[Jayrod]

This is my first post on this site, but here's some thoughts I have on this topic:

Not everyone who says they are a Christian really is. The word itself means "little Christ" and as Jesus points out, you will know a tree by it's fruit. Unfortunately, many people never get to see a really true Christian up close enough to know whether they are genuine or not. I know a handfull and I'll tell you, when someone really does all that they can to be like Christ it is VERY impressive.

Many of the "contradictory" things in the Bible are misinterpritations or just misunderstood concepts. Take the idea that God creates us in this bad situation where only 1/4 of us make it to heaven, but yet God loves each of us. The truth is, he created man in paradise with free will, from the beginning. Adam & Eve got the sin thing started which brought in death, which God never wanted man to go through. God then sent his son to become a human, live and suffer a horrible death that he didn't deserve so that we could be brought back to the original plan He has for us. It's always been His love that motivates, but He refuses to mess with free will. God hopes that 100% of mankind will get to heaven, but He leaves that up to us. He's not playing a numbers game and what exactly is a soul worth? Is one soul worth one soul? There is no math equation when dealing with souls.

I don't have it all figured out yet and don't expect to. I've questioned everything about Christianity and the Bible that I can, because I'm not one to just buy into something because it's what someone else says. But one thing I know is that Jesus & the Bible are legit. It has been proven to me personally many times in my short (28 year) life and I have never heard an argument against it that is solid enough to convince me otherwise.

 

[Jayrok]

It has been proven to me personally many times in my short (28 year) life and I have never heard an argument against it that is solid enough to convince me otherwise.

Can you describe this proof?And what constitutes a "real christian" as opposed to one who thinks he is?

 

[Black Box]

Because the bible tells them so. They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself. The bible is therefore used to defend the bible. The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired.

Make sense?

I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, but I know you've studied the formation of the NT canon, and this is only part of the story. This is a straw man, and I think you know it... though I could be wrong

 

[Black Box]

This is my first post on this site, but here's some thoughts I have on this topic:

Not everyone who says they are a Christian really is. The word itself means "little Christ" and as Jesus points out, you will know a tree by it's fruit. Unfortunately, many people never get to see a really true Christian up close enough to know whether they are genuine or not. I know a handfull and I'll tell you, when someone really does all that they can to be like Christ it is VERY impressive.

Many of the "contradictory" things in the Bible are misinterpritations or just misunderstood concepts. Take the idea that God creates us in this bad situation where only 1/4 of us make it to heaven, but yet God loves each of us. The truth is, he created man in paradise with free will, from the beginning. Adam & Eve got the sin thing started which brought in death, which God never wanted man to go through. God then sent his son to become a human, live and suffer a horrible death that he didn't deserve so that we could be brought back to the original plan He has for us. It's always been His love that motivates, but He refuses to mess with free will. God hopes that 100% of mankind will get to heaven, but He leaves that up to us. He's not playing a numbers game and what exactly is a soul worth? Is one soul worth one soul? There is no math equation when dealing with souls.

I don't have it all figured out yet and don't expect to. I've questioned everything about Christianity and the Bible that I can, because I'm not one to just buy into something because it's what someone else says. But one thing I know is that Jesus & the Bible are legit. It has been proven to me personally many times in my short (28 year) life and I have never heard an argument against it that is solid enough to convince me otherwise.

Uh-oh.. Jayrock and Jayrod... this is about to become very confusing Oh, and welcome Jayrod

 

[Jayrok]

Because the bible tells them so.  They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself.  The bible is therefore used to defend the bible.  The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired. 

Make sense?

I know you are probably saying this tongue in cheek, but I know you've studied the formation of the NT canon, and this is only part of the story. This is a straw man, and I think you know it... though I could be wrong

 

[babydemon90]

Because the bible tells them so.  They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself.  The bible is therefore used to defend the bible.  The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired.  

Make sense?

Other then a single verse in II Timothy, are there any other verses claiming divine inspiration? And what Scriptures was the author of II Timothy referring to? Surely he wasnlt referring to the letter he himself was writing, as it would not have been considered "Scripture" at that time...in fact, wouldn;t most of the New Testament not have been considered Scripture until long after that verse was written? So the author of II Timothy cannot be construed as referring to those writings...

According to 1 Cor 2:13, Paul believes his written words are divinely inspired. His words are from the spirit of God, not himself. But you are correct.. when 2 Tim was written there was no canon of NT scripture. At that time, the scripture was the Hebrew scriptures, which seems a bit odd since the NT sort of supersedes much of the OT scriptures.

Maybe the divinely inspired scripture was replaced with other, new divinely inspired scripture..

See, 1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration. Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

 

[Running with scissors]

Because the bible tells them so. They believe the bible is inspired because it is the authority source for itself. The bible is therefore used to defend the bible. The bible says it is inspired, therefore it is necessarily inspired.

Make sense?

Other then a single verse in II Timothy, are there any other verses claiming divine inspiration? And what Scriptures was the author of II Timothy referring to? Surely he wasnlt referring to the letter he himself was writing, as it would not have been considered "Scripture" at that time...in fact, wouldn;t most of the New Testament not have been considered Scripture until long after that verse was written? So the author of II Timothy cannot be construed as referring to those writings...

According to 1 Cor 2:13, Paul believes his written words are divinely inspired. His words are from the spirit of God, not himself. But you are correct.. when 2 Tim was written there was no canon of NT scripture. At that time, the scripture was the Hebrew scriptures, which seems a bit odd since the NT sort of supersedes much of the OT scriptures.

Maybe the divinely inspired scripture was replaced with other, new divinely inspired scripture..

See, 1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration. Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

I request you go back to your old avatar.

 

[Black Box]

The Christian knowledge of God comes from many sources, but the ones that come from Christ are pretty major, considering that Jesus = God in the Christian belief system. So, in this case, we can understand salvation because Christ communicated it to us. I think the issue here is the interpretation of that communication, no?

So our knowledge of salvation comes from Jesus...

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus being "the way" is one thing - but that still leaves open a vast realm of interpretation to how exactly "the way" is utilized. Faith in Jesus? Obedience to Jesus words? Living your life as Jesus lived his?Of course, at the tomb of Lazarus, we have this,

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.

But we still don't have a clear picture - some places it seems we need to also be baptized, some places we need to combine belief with obedience to the law and/or giving to the poor. And, as a side note, why is the story of Lazarus only in John? Seems a pretty major event...

What do you mean here? Are you saying that the issue of how to be saved is so muddled that we cannot possibly know what to do? Are you saying we don't even know where to start? Or are you pointing out that different people have different ideas for salvation?

 

[Black Box]

See, 1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration. Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

Do you know why the letters of Paul's were included in the canon and not, say.... a church father such as Clement? Because that guy wrote some stuff too.

 

[Jayrod]

It has been proven to me personally many times in my short (28 year) life and I have never heard an argument against it that is solid enough to convince me otherwise.

Can you describe this proof?And what constitutes a "real christian" as opposed to one who thinks he is?

The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.

As far as what a real Christian is, it's someone who really is a disciple of Jesus and tries to emulate Him in all they do. That does take time and everyone will fail sometimes, but an individual will know if he/she is really making the effort or not. Only God can truly judge that since He is the only one that can see into people's hearts. The people I was referring to, however, are those that claim to be Christians when they know they aren't really, or who really haven't taken the time to figure out what that actually means. It has become almost a trendy title in some places and people like to claim it only when it's convenient, but not when it really matters (like giving up what you want for someone else's sake).

 

[Jayrod]

Uh-oh.. Jayrock and Jayrod... this is about to become very confusing

Oh, and welcome Jayrod

Sorry about the confusion, it's just an old nickname.

Thanks for the welcome black box.

 

[babydemon90]

See,  1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration.  Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

Do you know why the letters of Paul's were included in the canon and not, say.... a church father such as Clement? Because that guy wrote some stuff too.

"Included in the canon" - what is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like Paul is claiming he is inspired by the Holy Spirit - just like every Christian is. So why would his words take on "Divine" meaning. Is not every Christian guided by the Holy SPirit within them?

 

[Black Box]

See, 1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration. Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

Do you know why the letters of Paul's were included in the canon and not, say.... a church father such as Clement? Because that guy wrote some stuff too.

"Included in the canon" - what is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like Paul is claiming he is inspired by the Holy Spirit - just like every Christian is. So why would his words take on "Divine" meaning. Is not every Christian guided by the Holy SPirit within them?

"Included in the canon" basically means it is in the New Testament. And, yes, all believers have the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't necessarily imply that whatever a Christian does, writes or says is "inspired by God". I think that is self-evident.And actually, the question you pose is one of the reasons why the NT was put together anyways. The early church needed a way to capture what Christ and the apostles taught so that any writing that came along claiming to have authority could be evaluated and accepted or rejected.

 

[Jayrok]

The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant.  However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured.  I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get.  Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed.  I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need.  Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2)  When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby.  Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three.  We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job.  Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work.  Again, too perfect to be coincidence.

I'm happy for you and glad to hear of your success in supporting your family. You attribute this success to prayer and believe God answered your prayers. Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others? For instance, hundreds of prayers for my niece to be cured of her life threatening illness. Those prayers didn't convince God, since she died after a painful battle with leukemia. Or the countless children dying of starvation in poor countries of the world.. or the kids being murdered by their mother who believes she is being tormented by Satan. Or the homeless. Do you think there is any christian homeless in the world, who have daily prayed for a home for their family? I do too.

But congrats to you. God decided to listen to your prayers and help you while ignoring all those other pesky people who are praying for something a little more substantial than you wanting or needing to live a certain lifestyle.

In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?

Even atheists catch a break like the one you described. As well as members of all the other religions out there. Did you know that Allah also answers the prayers of muslims?

Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but your stories are very common, religious or not. I thought your proof was that you actually sat and talked with Jesus or something.

As far as what a real Christian is, it's someone who really is a disciple of Jesus and tries to emulate Him in all they do.  That does take time and everyone will fail sometimes, but an individual will know if he/she is really making the effort or not.  Only God can truly judge that since He is the only one that can see into people's hearts.  The people I was referring to, however, are those that claim to be Christians when they know they aren't really, or who really haven't taken the time to figure out what that actually means.  It has become almost a trendy title in some places and people like to claim it only when it's convenient, but not when it really matters (like giving up what you want for someone else's sake).

Or giving up things you have for Jesus' sake, like he talked about in Matthew.. right?You think a real christian is a disciple of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Have you read what it takes to be a disciple? Luke 14. To be a disciple you must give up your family, even your life and follow Jesus. Are you really doing this? Or is being a christian just believing in Jesus, and following his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If people really want to be like Jesus, there would be more Mother Teresas or Ghandis out there. It's not about you, or the fortunes of your family.

Welcome to FBG. I like your username.

 

[babydemon90]

See,  1 Cor to me sounds like he's simply talking about the "inspiration" from the Holy Spirit which is in ALL Christians.....no "Special" inspiration.  Still nothing about Paul's words there then the words of any pastoral commentary.

Do you know why the letters of Paul's were included in the canon and not, say.... a church father such as Clement? Because that guy wrote some stuff too.

"Included in the canon" - what is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like Paul is claiming he is inspired by the Holy Spirit - just like every Christian is. So why would his words take on "Divine" meaning. Is not every Christian guided by the Holy SPirit within them?

"Included in the canon" basically means it is in the New Testament. And, yes, all believers have the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't necessarily imply that whatever a Christian does, writes or says is "inspired by God". I think that is self-evident.And actually, the question you pose is one of the reasons why the NT was put together anyways. The early church needed a way to capture what Christ and the apostles taught so that any writing that came along claiming to have authority could be evaluated and accepted or rejected.

And that's fine - I have no problem with the New Testament as a collection of letters and writings from early apostles and leaders. It's when we assign those writings an authority equal to the authority of God I find a bit dubious.

 

[Zalf]

The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant. However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured. I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get. Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed. I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need. Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2) When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby. Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three. We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job. Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work. Again, too perfect to be coincidence.

I'm happy for you and glad to hear of your success in supporting your family. You attribute this success to prayer and believe God answered your prayers. Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others? For instance, hundreds of prayers for my niece to be cured of her life threatening illness. Those prayers didn't convince God, since she died after a painful battle with leukemia. Or the countless children dying of starvation in poor countries of the world.. or the kids being murdered by their mother who believes she is being tormented by Satan. Or the homeless. Do you think there is any christian homeless in the world, who have daily prayed for a home for their family? I do too.

But congrats to you. God decided to listen to your prayers and help you while ignoring all those other pesky people who are praying for something a little more substantial than you wanting or needing to live a certain lifestyle.

In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?

Even atheists catch a break like the one you described. As well as members of all the other religions out there. Did you know that Allah also answers the prayers of muslims?

Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but your stories are very common, religious or not. I thought your proof was that you actually sat and talked with Jesus or something.

As far as what a real Christian is, it's someone who really is a disciple of Jesus and tries to emulate Him in all they do. That does take time and everyone will fail sometimes, but an individual will know if he/she is really making the effort or not. Only God can truly judge that since He is the only one that can see into people's hearts. The people I was referring to, however, are those that claim to be Christians when they know they aren't really, or who really haven't taken the time to figure out what that actually means. It has become almost a trendy title in some places and people like to claim it only when it's convenient, but not when it really matters (like giving up what you want for someone else's sake).

Or giving up things you have for Jesus' sake, like he talked about in Matthew.. right?You think a real christian is a disciple of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Have you read what it takes to be a disciple? Luke 14. To be a disciple you must give up your family, even your life and follow Jesus. Are you really doing this? Or is being a christian just believing in Jesus, and following his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If people really want to be like Jesus, there would be more Mother Teresas or Ghandis out there. It's not about you, or the fortunes of your family.

Welcome to FBG. I like your username.

Welcome Jayrod and dont let Jayrok get to you too much. He knows the Bible(and the history/literature surrounding it) very well and can communicate that knowledge. Unfortunately Jayrok has had what I loosely call a crisis of faith(Im sure he would see it more as an awakening). He asks these questions of all of us who feel Jesus/God work in our lives on a daily basis. One of my regular prayers is that I learn a way to explain that feeling of certainty to someone how hasnt felt it or has felt it and doesnt have faith in what they felt. Maybe you can do a better job of expressing that then those of us who have faced the same quizzes before you. He knows the questions; as many of us do; that have no scientifically verfiyable answer and the answer boils down to faith and interpretations that can vary from Christian to Christian. He leads a merry chase and asks some questions that elicit some interesting discussions.

Just keep the faith, smile, and remember that "I dont know," "I dont know but I personally believe," and "Faith" are all perfectly acceptable answers no matter how frustrating they can be for some. You will find Jayrok handles what some affectionately(Im sure) call the Christian Fetal Position Defense better then most.

 

[Zalf]

And Jayrok, I never got in on your original topic before the usually derailings kicked into full gear.

When I think about the end time question for some reason the image of two fish tanks sticks in my head. One fish tank is perfect in every way(Heaven). The keeper of this fish tank(God) wants to keep it perfect in every way. To do this he has to make sure he only adds fish to the tank that will keep the tank perfect(the saved). To determine which fish will keep the perfect tank perfect, he has the second tank(our world). When he gets new fish he adds them to the second tank. As he determines which fish will keep the perfection of the first tank he moves them over. As he determines which fish would disrupt the perfect tank he (excuse the drama) flushes them.

As far as the mathematics of it. Does he have a limited number of fish to sort through? Does he have a preset amount of time to sort through them? Does he have an unlimited amount of fish and time to sort through but the paradise has an optimal(not limited) capacity? I dont know. How does he sort through the fish? I dont know.

Just a crazy theory that sticks in my head when considering your question.

 

[Jayrok]

And Jayrok, I never got in on your original topic before the usually derailings kicked into full gear.

When I think about the end time question for some reason the image of two fish tanks sticks in my head. One fish tank is perfect in every way(Heaven). The keeper of this fish tank(God) wants to keep it perfect in every way. To do this he has to make sure he only adds fish to the tank that will keep the tank perfect(the saved). To determine which fish will keep the perfect tank perfect, he has the second tank(our world). When he gets new fish he adds them to the second tank. As he determines which fish will keep the perfection of the first tank he moves them over. As he determines which fish would disrupt the perfect tank he (excuse the drama) flushes them.

As far as the mathematics of it. Does he have a limited number of fish to sort through? Does he have a preset amount of time to sort through them? Does he have an unlimited amount of fish and time to sort through but the paradise has an optimal(not limited) capacity? I dont know. How does he sort through the fish? I dont know.

Just a crazy theory that sticks in my head when considering your question.

So you guys are and this is just a big ?Who'da thunk it..

 

[Jayrok]

The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant.  However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured.  I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get.  Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed.  I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need.  Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2)  When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby.  Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three.  We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job.  Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work.  Again, too perfect to be coincidence.

I'm happy for you and glad to hear of your success in supporting your family. You attribute this success to prayer and believe God answered your prayers. Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others? For instance, hundreds of prayers for my niece to be cured of her life threatening illness. Those prayers didn't convince God, since she died after a painful battle with leukemia. Or the countless children dying of starvation in poor countries of the world.. or the kids being murdered by their mother who believes she is being tormented by Satan. Or the homeless. Do you think there is any christian homeless in the world, who have daily prayed for a home for their family? I do too.

But congrats to you. God decided to listen to your prayers and help you while ignoring all those other pesky people who are praying for something a little more substantial than you wanting or needing to live a certain lifestyle.

In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?

Even atheists catch a break like the one you described. As well as members of all the other religions out there. Did you know that Allah also answers the prayers of muslims?

Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but your stories are very common, religious or not. I thought your proof was that you actually sat and talked with Jesus or something.

As far as what a real Christian is, it's someone who really is a disciple of Jesus and tries to emulate Him in all they do.  That does take time and everyone will fail sometimes, but an individual will know if he/she is really making the effort or not.  Only God can truly judge that since He is the only one that can see into people's hearts.  The people I was referring to, however, are those that claim to be Christians when they know they aren't really, or who really haven't taken the time to figure out what that actually means.  It has become almost a trendy title in some places and people like to claim it only when it's convenient, but not when it really matters (like giving up what you want for someone else's sake).

Or giving up things you have for Jesus' sake, like he talked about in Matthew.. right?You think a real christian is a disciple of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Have you read what it takes to be a disciple? Luke 14. To be a disciple you must give up your family, even your life and follow Jesus. Are you really doing this? Or is being a christian just believing in Jesus, and following his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If people really want to be like Jesus, there would be more Mother Teresas or Ghandis out there. It's not about you, or the fortunes of your family.

Welcome to FBG. I like your username.

Welcome Jayrod and dont let Jayrok get to you too much. He knows the Bible(and the history/literature surrounding it) very well and can communicate that knowledge. Unfortunately Jayrok has had what I loosely call a crisis of faith(Im sure he would see it more as an awakening). He asks these questions of all of us who feel Jesus/God work in our lives on a daily basis. One of my regular prayers is that I learn a way to explain that feeling of certainty to someone how hasnt felt it or has felt it and doesnt have faith in what they felt. Maybe you can do a better job of expressing that then those of us who have faced the same quizzes before you. He knows the questions; as many of us do; that have no scientifically verfiyable answer and the answer boils down to faith and interpretations that can vary from Christian to Christian. He leads a merry chase and asks some questions that elicit some interesting discussions.

Just keep the faith, smile, and remember that "I dont know," "I dont know but I personally believe," and "Faith" are all perfectly acceptable answers no matter how frustrating they can be for some. You will find Jayrok handles what some affectionately(Im sure) call the Christian Fetal Position Defense better then most.

:finger:

Seriously.. I figured one of you guys would say something about my response to him. But didn't you see it coming? I'm sorry, but it's frustrating to hear the same story about God and Jesus are real because they gave me the money I prayed for, or something similar.

And what is the christian fetal position? I may have missed that one.

 

[Jayrod]

"I'm happy for you and glad to hear of your success in supporting your family."

Actually the stories weren't about providing for my family. In both cases, the issue was God asking us to do something we couldn't do on our own and then providing the way for it to happen. We were fine in St. Louis and my wife could just as easily just kept working after our son was born. The point was we were doing things that didn't make logical sense and God took care of it.

"Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others?"

I can't fully explain, nor would any answer from me be fitting for anyone faced with a situation like your niece's. God is sovereign and will have you do what is truly best for all in the long term, which is sometimes very painful in the short term. Also, we are in a world where every decision is not actually made by God. He gave the world to man to run (hence it's current state). He will only take control of what people let him control of. The ultimate course of the world is in his hands, but again, he mostly relies on people to obey him. Sometimes He steps in and answers prayer, but other times He doesn't. I've seen people suffer much more by living their life than dying a painful death would have been.

"In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?"

I am very aware that there are many people from all walks of life that have tough or similar situations. Mine were significant to me personally and the results were very uncommon. Who gets offered more money after already accepting the job at a given rate? I certainly wasn't going to work for a charity and they had no idea what my situation was. Like I said, it wasn't like my wife and I we're like...you know we'd just like a change of scenery. Or...how about you just stay at home with the baby, I'm sure someone will offer me a better job. The point of the stories were, God lead, we followed and it worked out just right. I'm not saying I deserve anything more than anyone else since I am a good praying Christian, because I certainly don't and often fail at being good, or praying, or being a Christian. The point was that God revealed himself to me more in these situations.

"Or giving up things you have for Jesus' sake, like he talked about in Matthew.. right?

You think a real christian is a disciple of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Have you read what it takes to be a disciple? Luke 14. To be a disciple you must give up your family, even your life and follow Jesus. Are you really doing this? Or is being a christian just believing in Jesus, and following his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If people really want to be like Jesus, there would be more Mother Teresas or Ghandis out there. It's not about you, or the fortunes of your family."

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no and I agree, it's not about me, my fortunes or my family.

Being a disciple is under a two-fold command. Love God first and foremost (which leads to serve, obey, etc.) and then love your neighbor (same results). This doesn't always require one to abandon all possesions and minister to the poor and starving in India. Just do exactly what God asks, when he asks...which may lead to abandoning all possesions and minsitering to the poor and starving in India, or it may not. God doesn't care at all about $$ (unlike most churches unfortuantely) he has as much of that as he could want and needs none, but will use it at times when He sees fit. He also wants everyone ministered to. So there will have to be ministers in upper class suburbia as well as the African jungle.

Just so you know I'm not all talk (I caught a little of that in your reply). I am a volunteer at my church where I work with Jr. High & Sr. High kids and have a weekly Bible study at my house with a small group of them. These kids just need someone to be there for them when they have no one else and the church can't hire that many people, so I have to be where I am doing what I'm doing so I can do what God wants me to do. Again, no coincidence what transpired to get us where we are.

 

[Jayrok]

Actually the stories weren't about providing for my family. In both cases, the issue was God asking us to do something we couldn't do on our own and then providing the way for it to happen. We were fine in St. Louis and my wife could just as easily just kept working after our son was born. The point was we were doing things that didn't make logical sense and God took care of it.

I can't fully explain, nor would any answer from me be fitting for anyone faced with a situation like your niece's. God is sovereign and will have you do what is truly best for all in the long term, which is sometimes very painful in the short term. Also, we are in a world where every decision is not actually made by God. He gave the world to man to run (hence it's current state). He will only take control of what people let him control of. The ultimate course of the world is in his hands, but again, he mostly relies on people to obey him. Sometimes He steps in and answers prayer, but other times He doesn't. I've seen people suffer much more by living their life than dying a painful death would have been.

I am very aware that there are many people from all walks of life that have tough or similar situations. Mine were significant to me personally and the results were very uncommon. Who gets offered more money after already accepting the job at a given rate? I certainly wasn't going to work for a charity and they had no idea what my situation was. Like I said, it wasn't like my wife and I we're like...you know we'd just like a change of scenery. Or...how about you just stay at home with the baby, I'm sure someone will offer me a better job. The point of the stories were, God lead, we followed and it worked out just right. I'm not saying I deserve anything more than anyone else since I am a good praying Christian, because I certainly don't and often fail at being good, or praying, or being a Christian. The point was that God revealed himself to me more in these situations.

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, no and I agree, it's not about me, my fortunes or my family.

Being a disciple is under a two-fold command. Love God first and foremost (which leads to serve, obey, etc.) and then love your neighbor (same results). This doesn't always require one to abandon all possesions and minister to the poor and starving in India. Just do exactly what God asks, when he asks...which may lead to abandoning all possesions and minsitering to the poor and starving in India, or it may not. God doesn't care at all about $$ (unlike most churches unfortuantely) he has as much of that as he could want and needs none, but will use it at times when He sees fit. He also wants everyone ministered to. So there will have to be ministers in upper class suburbia as well as the African jungle.

Just so you know I'm not all talk (I caught a little of that in your reply). I am a volunteer at my church where I work with Jr. High & Sr. High kids and have a weekly Bible study at my house with a small group of them. These kids just need someone to be there for them when they have no one else and the church can't hire that many people, so I have to be where I am doing what I'm doing so I can do what God wants me to do. Again, no coincidence what transpired to get us where we are.

Remember, if you really believe it... it's not a lie.I'm happy for you, Jay. And I didn't mean to imply that you were all talk. Sorry if you took offense. I'm glad to hear you are there for the kids.

I'd like to participate in your bible study sometime. Cheers

 

[Running with scissors]

Just keep the faith, smile, and remember that "I dont know," "I dont know but I personally believe," and "Faith" are all perfectly acceptable answers no matter how frustrating they can be for some.

I'd go further to say that these are the only acceptable answers. You (the grand you, not you personally) come off sounding like a nut trying to apply logical principles to something as inherently illogical as faith in a higher being.

 

[Jayrod]

Just keep the faith, smile, and remember that "I dont know," "I dont know but I personally believe," and "Faith" are all perfectly acceptable answers no matter how frustrating they can be for some. 

I'd go further to say that these are the only acceptable answers. You (the grand you, not you personally) come off sounding like a nut trying to apply logical principles to something as inherently illogical as faith in a higher being.

Actually I'm not a big fan of these "Christian" answers and think they can be avoided. In my opinion faith in a higher being is very logical. (I will add that I am an anal-retentive accountant who doesn't get things that aren't logical)Evolution doesn't make sense to me...there are too many gaps and leaps of faith to make it even come close to being a good explination for our origin.

 

[Zalf]

The two biggest examples of God's proof in my life are:

1) When my wife and I felt like God wanted us to move from St. Louis, where we both had good jobs and lots of friends, to a town where we had only some family, but no jobs, we were obviously reluctant.  However, we were certain we were supposed to move and both turned in our resignations before ever having a job secured.  I felt like I needed me to make a certain salary for us to be secure, but it was a little bit more than I thought I could get.  Long story short, my wife (a teacher) got a job at a school district that was supposed to be on a hiring freeze and I got offered a job with a good company, but it was for less than we needed.  I prayed, God lead me to accept the job and AFTER I told them I would take the job, they said they would pay me MORE than the original offer and it was exactly the salary I felt we would need.  Too much fell in to place in too short of time to be coincidence.

2)  When my wife got pregnant, we felt she should stay home with the baby.  Problem was, I wasn't making enough to support a family of three.  We prayed, and my wife went ahead and again resigned before we had anything secured and I felt God wanted me to stay where I was so I wasn't even looking for a new job.  Two months before our son was born, I was offered a job out of the blue at an office closer to home for just enough money to take care of us without my wife needing to work.  Again, too perfect to be coincidence.

I'm happy for you and glad to hear of your success in supporting your family. You attribute this success to prayer and believe God answered your prayers. Why is it, do you suppose, that God saw fit to answer your prayer of being able to meet your debts as you've budgeted in your house, but he doesn't answer other, patently urgent prayers from others? For instance, hundreds of prayers for my niece to be cured of her life threatening illness. Those prayers didn't convince God, since she died after a painful battle with leukemia. Or the countless children dying of starvation in poor countries of the world.. or the kids being murdered by their mother who believes she is being tormented by Satan. Or the homeless. Do you think there is any christian homeless in the world, who have daily prayed for a home for their family? I do too.

But congrats to you. God decided to listen to your prayers and help you while ignoring all those other pesky people who are praying for something a little more substantial than you wanting or needing to live a certain lifestyle.

In addition, what would you say if you learned that there are many couples in the same boat as you... that are not christian and don't pray to anyone.. that get the same job offers and end up blessed somehow with just enough money to live in a particular city? Do you think that christians are the only group of people that find living hard sometimes?

Even atheists catch a break like the one you described. As well as members of all the other religions out there. Did you know that Allah also answers the prayers of muslims?

Forgive me for sounding skeptical, but your stories are very common, religious or not. I thought your proof was that you actually sat and talked with Jesus or something.

As far as what a real Christian is, it's someone who really is a disciple of Jesus and tries to emulate Him in all they do.  That does take time and everyone will fail sometimes, but an individual will know if he/she is really making the effort or not.  Only God can truly judge that since He is the only one that can see into people's hearts.  The people I was referring to, however, are those that claim to be Christians when they know they aren't really, or who really haven't taken the time to figure out what that actually means.  It has become almost a trendy title in some places and people like to claim it only when it's convenient, but not when it really matters (like giving up what you want for someone else's sake).

Or giving up things you have for Jesus' sake, like he talked about in Matthew.. right?You think a real christian is a disciple of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Have you read what it takes to be a disciple? Luke 14. To be a disciple you must give up your family, even your life and follow Jesus. Are you really doing this? Or is being a christian just believing in Jesus, and following his commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

If people really want to be like Jesus, there would be more Mother Teresas or Ghandis out there. It's not about you, or the fortunes of your family.

Welcome to FBG. I like your username.

Welcome Jayrod and dont let Jayrok get to you too much. He knows the Bible(and the history/literature surrounding it) very well and can communicate that knowledge. Unfortunately Jayrok has had what I loosely call a crisis of faith(Im sure he would see it more as an awakening). He asks these questions of all of us who feel Jesus/God work in our lives on a daily basis. One of my regular prayers is that I learn a way to explain that feeling of certainty to someone how hasnt felt it or has felt it and doesnt have faith in what they felt. Maybe you can do a better job of expressing that then those of us who have faced the same quizzes before you. He knows the questions; as many of us do; that have no scientifically verfiyable answer and the answer boils down to faith and interpretations that can vary from Christian to Christian. He leads a merry chase and asks some questions that elicit some interesting discussions.

Just keep the faith, smile, and remember that "I dont know," "I dont know but I personally believe," and "Faith" are all perfectly acceptable answers no matter how frustrating they can be for some. You will find Jayrok handles what some affectionately(Im sure) call the Christian Fetal Position Defense better then most.

:finger:

Seriously.. I figured one of you guys would say something about my response to him. But didn't you see it coming? I'm sorry, but it's frustrating to hear the same story about God and Jesus are real because they gave me the money I prayed for, or something similar.

And what is the christian fetal position? I may have missed that one.

That was one of royalty's gems. I wont lump you two in the same club if you dont lump me and LB in the same club. He has issues with faith and not understanding everything God does but still believing being answers to some questions.Of course I saw it coming its the same question you always ask. And I do understand your frustration. Like I said, I feel the same frustration from the other side in not being able to prove something I know for a fact(to me) to be true. Especially when being able to prove that something would actually go along way in doing something that God has asked of followers. Just because I dont make the rules doesnt mean I dont still ask for a mid-game rule change.

 

[Jayrok]

That was one of royalty's gems. I wont lump you two in the same club if you dont lump me and LB in the same club. He has issues with faith and not understanding everything God does but still believing being answers to some questions.

Of course I saw it coming its the same question you always ask. And I do understand your frustration. Like I said, I feel the same frustration from the other side in not being able to prove something I know for a fact(to me) to be true. Especially when being able to prove that something would actually go along way in doing something that God has asked of followers. Just because I dont make the rules doesnt mean I dont still ask for a mid-game rule change.

I think Royalty is a smart guy. He's into the philosophy and logic of arguments. LB seems a little different to me lately. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's the fact that he is arguing more with christians than skeptics anymore. LB knows the bible and believes what he's learned, from his perspective. I'd say him and CE are polar opposites on the christian side. You fall somewhere in between.

Especially when being able to prove that something would actually go along way in doing something that God has asked of followers

This is the frustrating part. God could provide that proof for all. No secrecy or members-only having understanding. It's doubly tough since there is a logical, real way to explain it through neurology and the function of the human brain.

 

[John 14:6]

LB knows the bible and believes what he's learned, from his perspective. I'd say him and CE are polar opposites on the christian side. You fall somewhere in between.

Where do I fit in?

 

[Maelstrom]

I'm gonna jump back to the original topic a little here, about the mathematics of God's plan. First, let me say that I was raised in a pretty religous house - we moved across the country when I was 6 to help a struggling congregation and lived there for 4 years until work dried up and my parents had to move back. I was a full-time minister for almost 2 years after high-school. I have had my own personal "crisis of faith" along quite similar lines to this post's question - basically how could I believe that a loving God would destroy 90%+ of the population from the beginning of time? (please excuse any small details I get wrong, it's been a while since I've tried to reason about this)

The scriptural answer as I was taught really had nothing to do with the number of people saved or sentanced to death for not believing. It was about vindicating God's name and his sovereignty (right to rule) over all creation. Remember, his sovereignty was called into question when Satan and the demons turned Adam and Eve in the garden. Basically Satan said humans with free will should rule themselves, not have to listen to god. The original sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge/Life was Adam and Eve also saying that they SHOULD be able to live without God's rules.

God, being completely and utterly Just, could not just delete Adam and Eve and all creation and start over, since he would still know that the question of his sovereignty was not satisfied (even if no one else knew).

So, he allows humans to rule themselves, to show to them and all creation that humans need God's guidance and counsel to prosper. At the same time, being loving, he sends his son to Earth to give those that desire to worship God and show to the rest of creation that humankind, even imperfect, will follow the rules God sets up (or at least try to the best of human's imperfect abilities). Christ also showed that a perfect human could follow God's commandments (answering the question Adam failed) and provided the ransom sacrifice that allows for others to be saved despite their imperfection.

As for how long God will wait before determining that the question of his sovereignty has been answered, no one knows but God himself. But it is not a matter of how many souls are saved until the end, or even about the ratio of saved vs. damned. It's about God's perfect Justice and proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that mankind needs God's sovereignty.

I must emphasize that this is here to help generate discussion, and while this is how I was taught, I don't even necessarily identify myself as a Christian at the moment as I struggle through many questions of my own. The original post echos the question that got me started on those many questions.

 

[Jayrok]

Thanks for your insights, Maelstrom. Interesting take.

Remember, his sovereignty was called into question when Satan and the demons turned Adam and Eve in the garden. Basically Satan said humans with free will should rule themselves, not have to listen to god. The original sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge/Life was Adam and Eve also saying that they SHOULD be able to live without God's rules.

Awful lot of speculation and reading into the text here. The serpent never said humans should rule themselves and not listen to God. It simply said if they ate it, their eyes would be opened and they would be like God... knowing good and evil. Incidently, he didn't lie to Eve. What he said would happen... happened. Their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked.. and felt shame. They also didn't die, as the serpent said they wouldn't.

But Adam and Eve never said they SHOULD be able to live without God's rules. To think this is changing the story completely.

God, being completely and utterly Just, could not just delete Adam and Eve and all creation and start over, since he would still know that the question of his sovereignty was not satisfied (even if no one else knew).

He destroyed all human life except for Noah, his sons and their wives. That's almost like starting over.

Christ also showed that a perfect human could follow God's commandments (answering the question Adam failed)

Per christian theology, Jesus was/is God. It shouldn't be that hard to follow your own commandments. Was he 100% God and 100% human? that's what they say.. but he was no ordinary human given all the miracles he could perform, and the power he gave others to perform. So the deck was sort of stacked in his favor in contrast to an ordinary human.

I must emphasize that this is here to help generate discussion, and while this is how I was taught, I don't even necessarily identify myself as a Christian at the moment as I struggle through many questions of my own. The original post echos the question that got me started on those many questions.

I can certainly understand your position. I began questioning my faith when I discovered the bible isn't infallible like I believed. From there, the study of the old testament and learning the stories and position of the Hebrews. I actually understand why they reject the new testament. Basically if certain things in the OT is true, then the NT is false... and vice-versa.

 

[Jayrok]

LB knows the bible and believes what he's learned, from his perspective.  I'd say him and CE are polar opposites on the christian side.  You fall somewhere in between.

Where do I fit in?

If we were to have a scale, so to speak... I'd probably vote for something like this: (note - this is not a scale of good christian to weak or poor christian... it's how they appear, to me at least, between LB and Crosseyed, who I would say are polar opposites)Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

On the Rocks - Leans towards fundy for the most part... King James Version only type. I know... scary

dgreen - seems to lean toward fundy

Politician Spock - Set in his ways.. good arguments. More philosophical than straightline fundy

Bailiver - Seems to be mainstream quasi-fundy.

Black Box - Hard to gage BB. Not enough info exchange. He's similar to Bailiver

John 14:6 - About the same as the previous two. Hard to gage. He comes and goes in threads

Prosopis - Catholic with catholic views. Likes to cut and paste catholic doctrine.

The Commish - When I first read his posts, TC was leaning higher towards CE. But now I'm not so sure. I feel like he's taking more arguments in and thinking these days. He's one of LB's discussion partners lately.

IvanK - Smart and articulate. He's not a fundy, seems fairly liberal in his beliefs

Joe Bryant - Yes, JB is a christian. He seems to be pretty liberal and doesn't really participate in christian threads that tend to go off track with discussion. I'm sure he's busy with his business and running FBG, especially this time of year.

Zalf - For some reason, I mistook him for Sinrman and thought he was a JWitness. Zalf and I have argued from time to time. He's no fundy and takes things in stride. Seems the kind you could sit and discuss things over a beer.

Proninja - See above. I like the ninja. Down to earth and likes beer. We could strike up some good conversations in a bar somewhere.

Mr. Know it all - Mr. KIA is cool. He doesn't pretend to know everything, despite his username. He speaks his peace and goes with the flow.

Bottomfeeder Sports - Hard to figure him out. He's often arguing with christians over the bible. His favorite verse to discuss, I believe, is in Ephesians about man not hating his own body. BFS claims he's a christian, but often argues like he's a skeptic. He believes in God and Jesus, but not a lot of the smoke and mirrors presented in the bible. That's my opinion though, which could be wrong.

Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself. When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about. He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation. As time went on, I saw LB change a bit. He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver. He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought. LB wouldn't have any of that. I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided. But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across.

I'm sure there are some I missed. It's not intentional, it's getting late and this was off the top of my head. And I may be wrong on some or all. It's just how I tend to see them based on past thread discussions.

I would also like to say that I admire each of them. One or two have just a touch of a superiority complex, but all in all, they are all great guys. There are a few that would make great skeptics. Maybe one day they'll come around.

 

[HarryManback]

Honestly, all this talk of "I believe God wanted me to do this, so I did it and it worked" scares the #### out of me.

What if your kid is sick, and you for some reason 'feel' God wants to to not bring him to a hospital for treatment, and then your kid dies.

Will you then say, "God wanted to take my child".

That just doesn't feel right to me.

 

[Jayrod]

Honestly, all this talk of "I believe God wanted me to do this, so I did it and it worked" scares the #### out of me.

What if your kid is sick, and you for some reason 'feel' God wants to to not bring him to a hospital for treatment, and then your kid dies.

Will you then say, "God wanted to take my child".

That just doesn't feel right to me.

Having recently told a "God wanted me to" story, this may sound hypocritical, but I agree. I knew a guy that that exact scenario happened to. He was a fanatical Christian that went to the same church I did. He was in his 20's and I was in Jr. High, but he worked with the youth group, so I did interact with him some. Anyway, he got married and his wife got pregnant. He "felt" God wanted them to have the baby at home, so they did, but it was not breathing when it was born. Instead of calling for an ambulance, he prayed for the baby for a couple of hours, but nothing happened and by then the baby was dead. It was a pretty messed up situation. I was going to a different church by then and have never seen the guy since. IMO, I'd say the bigger the risks involved with what you think God is telling you, the more you'd better make sure that it's God. When it comes to risking a life, God will have to speak to me in a burning bush before I'd do anything like that.One of the most important and basic ways God speaks to us is through the intelligence and common sense He created us with.

 

[full grown man]

LB knows the bible and believes what he's learned, from his perspective.  I'd say him and CE are polar opposites on the christian side.  You fall somewhere in between.

Where do I fit in?

If we were to have a scale, so to speak... I'd probably vote for something like this: (note - this is not a scale of good christian to weak or poor christian... it's how they appear, to me at least, between LB and Crosseyed, who I would say are polar opposites)Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

On the Rocks - Leans towards fundy for the most part... King James Version only type. I know... scary

dgreen - seems to lean toward fundy

Politician Spock - Set in his ways.. good arguments. More philosophical than straightline fundy

Bailiver - Seems to be mainstream quasi-fundy.

Black Box - Hard to gage BB. Not enough info exchange. He's similar to Bailiver

John 14:6 - About the same as the previous two. Hard to gage. He comes and goes in threads

Prosopis - Catholic with catholic views. Likes to cut and paste catholic doctrine.

The Commish - When I first read his posts, TC was leaning higher towards CE. But now I'm not so sure. I feel like he's taking more arguments in and thinking these days. He's one of LB's discussion partners lately.

IvanK - Smart and articulate. He's not a fundy, seems fairly liberal in his beliefs

Joe Bryant - Yes, JB is a christian. He seems to be pretty liberal and doesn't really participate in christian threads that tend to go off track with discussion. I'm sure he's busy with his business and running FBG, especially this time of year.

Zalf - For some reason, I mistook him for Sinrman and thought he was a JWitness. Zalf and I have argued from time to time. He's no fundy and takes things in stride. Seems the kind you could sit and discuss things over a beer.

Proninja - See above. I like the ninja. Down to earth and likes beer. We could strike up some good conversations in a bar somewhere.

Mr. Know it all - Mr. KIA is cool. He doesn't pretend to know everything, despite his username. He speaks his peace and goes with the flow.

Bottomfeeder Sports - Hard to figure him out. He's often arguing with christians over the bible. His favorite verse to discuss, I believe, is in Ephesians about man not hating his own body. BFS claims he's a christian, but often argues like he's a skeptic. He believes in God and Jesus, but not a lot of the smoke and mirrors presented in the bible. That's my opinion though, which could be wrong.

Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself. When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about. He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation. As time went on, I saw LB change a bit. He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver. He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought. LB wouldn't have any of that. I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided. But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across.

I'm sure there are some I missed. It's not intentional, it's getting late and this was off the top of my head. And I may be wrong on some or all. It's just how I tend to see them based on past thread discussions.

I would also like to say that I admire each of them. One or two have just a touch of a superiority complex, but all in all, they are all great guys. There are a few that would make great skeptics. Maybe one day they'll come around.

Ahem...

 

[CrossEyed]

Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

Hmmm, I guess I'd have to know how you define "fundamentalist" before I would agree on this. No doubt I'm pretty conservative theologically, but I irritate a lot of the fundys I know because I don't think drinking is a sin and I won't buy into Pre-Trib eschatology all the way, along with a few other things.

 

[babydemon90]

Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

Hmmm, I guess I'd have to know how you define "fundamentalist" before I would agree on this. No doubt I'm pretty conservative theologically, but I irritate a lot of the fundys I know because I don't think drinking is a sin and I won't buy into Pre-Trib eschatology all the way, along with a few other things.

I didn't think pre-trib went along with being a fundamentalist, although I know a lot that are....

 

[Jayrok]

LB knows the bible and believes what he's learned, from his perspective.  I'd say him and CE are polar opposites on the christian side.  You fall somewhere in between.

Where do I fit in?

If we were to have a scale, so to speak... I'd probably vote for something like this: (note - this is not a scale of good christian to weak or poor christian... it's how they appear, to me at least, between LB and Crosseyed, who I would say are polar opposites)Crosseyed - Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor (assistant)

On the Rocks - Leans towards fundy for the most part... King James Version only type. I know... scary

dgreen - seems to lean toward fundy

Politician Spock - Set in his ways.. good arguments. More philosophical than straightline fundy

Bailiver - Seems to be mainstream quasi-fundy.

Black Box - Hard to gage BB. Not enough info exchange. He's similar to Bailiver

John 14:6 - About the same as the previous two. Hard to gage. He comes and goes in threads

Prosopis - Catholic with catholic views. Likes to cut and paste catholic doctrine.

The Commish - When I first read his posts, TC was leaning higher towards CE. But now I'm not so sure. I feel like he's taking more arguments in and thinking these days. He's one of LB's discussion partners lately.

IvanK - Smart and articulate. He's not a fundy, seems fairly liberal in his beliefs

Joe Bryant - Yes, JB is a christian. He seems to be pretty liberal and doesn't really participate in christian threads that tend to go off track with discussion. I'm sure he's busy with his business and running FBG, especially this time of year.

Zalf - For some reason, I mistook him for Sinrman and thought he was a JWitness. Zalf and I have argued from time to time. He's no fundy and takes things in stride. Seems the kind you could sit and discuss things over a beer.

Proninja - See above. I like the ninja. Down to earth and likes beer. We could strike up some good conversations in a bar somewhere.

Mr. Know it all - Mr. KIA is cool. He doesn't pretend to know everything, despite his username. He speaks his peace and goes with the flow.

Bottomfeeder Sports - Hard to figure him out. He's often arguing with christians over the bible. His favorite verse to discuss, I believe, is in Ephesians about man not hating his own body. BFS claims he's a christian, but often argues like he's a skeptic. He believes in God and Jesus, but not a lot of the smoke and mirrors presented in the bible. That's my opinion though, which could be wrong.

Larry Boy - Larry is in a class all by himself. When he first came on the scene I thought, damn.. this kid is clueless about what he's talking about. He is labeled as a legalist because he believes christians should follow the actions of the early apostles in worship, baptism, etc.. he believes works are necessary along with faith, for salvation. As time went on, I saw LB change a bit. He was so zealous about his beliefs and he admirably clung to them like a life preserver. He argued so fervently, christians began to head him off at the pass and tried to bring him in line with mainstream thought. LB wouldn't have any of that. I admire LB for his tenacity, though I think he is misguided. But you can't deny his relentless desire to get his point across.

I'm sure there are some I missed. It's not intentional, it's getting late and this was off the top of my head. And I may be wrong on some or all. It's just how I tend to see them based on past thread discussions.

I would also like to say that I admire each of them. One or two have just a touch of a superiority complex, but all in all, they are all great guys. There are a few that would make great skeptics. Maybe one day they'll come around.

Ahem...

The weird thing is that you were on the list when I was thinking of posters. I started with those in this thread. Not sure how it was overlooked. Anyway, I'd say you were around the Commish and IvanK. You don't seem to lean to much towards a fundy. But you haven't joined us in enough discussions to have a definitive answer IMO.