Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
Signs? Young has never completed an entire season in high school or college without a injury.Young IS brittle. Talented but unreliable.
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The Monday Night Andre Hall Bandwagon (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter packersfan
- Start date
The first time I saw Hall, I was immediately reminded of MJD. Thats not to say that I tink he'll go on to have that type of success, but they seem like similar types of backs - bowling balls.
bigupsetter
Footballguy
theres always talk in denver, always unknown with shanny and the ground game. those parcells quotes about the denver rb attitude were very telling.
as is, as a henry owner, i took selvin with the last pick in my draft when selvin got his first start- i picked up hall. with all this- love to clear some of these spots, but we all need to know, we all need to prepare, if we all do this-
we will all still have no clue whats going on with the denver rbs.
lol
as is, as a henry owner, i took selvin with the last pick in my draft when selvin got his first start- i picked up hall. with all this- love to clear some of these spots, but we all need to know, we all need to prepare, if we all do this-
we will all still have no clue whats going on with the denver rbs.
lol
Tanner9919
Footballguy
just like Quentin Griffin was another Barry Sanders?
It actually looked like Shanny was "riding the horse" last night.Andre did not get a carry until Selvin hurt his knee (which I do not know the extent of that).
Nope, never thought Quentin Griffin reminded me of Barry Sanders.just like Quentin Griffin was another Barry Sanders?
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Just wait until Denver signs Wali Lundy to add to the mix.
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
The only thing Griffin and Sanders have in common is a seat on their coach every Sunday.just like Quentin Griffin was another Barry Sanders?
Gopher State
Footballguy
At this time the best thing seems to be to stay away from the Denver running game from a FF standpoint. Young owners have to be disappointed in Young, he looked average last night before getting hurt. Hall had one big run, but it was a run that Young didn't have. At best the Denver game will be RBBC, maybe Hall starts, maybe Young, who knows maybe Henry gets back into the mix. I own both Henry and Young, and don't expect Young to be a big part of my FF team down the line. I will not pick up hall and burn another roster spot. I see the Denver running game being a hair pulling experience the rest of the way. I am considering cutting my losses with this mess and moving on to other opitions.
weasel3515
Footballguy
Just read on Rotowire that Young's knee is okay.
Broncos: Young okay after knee injury
11/20/07 10:20 AM
THE NEWS
Broncos running back Selvin Young left Monday night's game for a while after injuring his knee. He returned and team officials tell the Denver Post that the rookie is okay.
Our View
While Young was out, Andre Hall stepped into the spotlight and ripped off a long touchdown run. Depending on what happens with Travis Henry, Young and Hall could be the number one and two runners going forward.
Broncos: Young okay after knee injury
11/20/07 10:20 AM
THE NEWS
Broncos running back Selvin Young left Monday night's game for a while after injuring his knee. He returned and team officials tell the Denver Post that the rookie is okay.
Our View
While Young was out, Andre Hall stepped into the spotlight and ripped off a long touchdown run. Depending on what happens with Travis Henry, Young and Hall could be the number one and two runners going forward.
packersfan
Footballguy
I wish I had that option. Assuming Young's injury isn't serious and Henry is suspended I could see the situation being a carbon copy of what we saw last season with Tatum and Mike Bell. I think Young starts and if he doesn't look good - and I agree he was very average last night before getting hurt - we see Hall get a chance. Maybe the two rotate equally and Shanahan goes with the "hot hand" approach. I'm not sure Young is going to be able to take the job and keep it full-time. Like Tatum Bell, he has serious durability issues and has already shown he can't be counted on to finish games he started. So Hall will likely remain very much in the mix here.If Henry isn't suspended, he obviously will be the guy as long as he can stay healthy. If Henry's suspended and Young's injury is serious, then Hall is the guy.It really is a mess.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
Warehouse Nasty
Footballguy
So Selvin Young has one bad half in your eyes while Andre Hall makes one good run and now it's a time share? Selvin has started 3 games and has run for a 4.5 ypc average in those starts and also contributed 26 ypg in receiving despite missing nearly half of this last game. Do you really think that Shanahan is going to completely shift around the roles because Hall had one long run? Nevermind the fact that it was Hall completely missing a blocking assignment to get Cutler sacked on 3rd down. I think the mistake you might be making here is thinking Shanahan, or other NFL coaches for that matter, are as irrational as a group. They don't completely change their rotation based off one good play or one bad half.packersfan said:
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packersfan
Footballguy
I'm not assuming Shanahan is irrational nor am I writing off Young. However, the fact that he has failed to finish 67% of his starts thus far in the NFL is not something to be casually dismissed in my opinion. Is Young more talented than Hall? Yes, I believe he is. But if he can't stay on the field, it won't matter. I'm a bit surprised that so many people are dismissing this rather significant point.I think Shanahan's approach has been quite clear this season. He wants one RB to be his guy. When Henry's been on the field, he's been the guy. When Young started he was clearly the guy as well. However, if Young can't stay on the field, Shanahan may not have any other choice but to get Hall involved. That is why this looks so much like last season to me. Tatum Bell was clearly the guy after he was named the unquestioned starter early in the season. And he had some big games, leading the AFC in rushing at one point. But his durability issues got the best of him and that allowed Mike Bell to enter the fray. I fear the same thing could happen to Young should Henry be suspended. I'm simply pointing out that the major weakness that Young has displayed thus far (durability) could force Shanahan to get Hall involved just like Tatum Bell's primary weakness (durability) forced him to get Mike Bell involved last season.Again, if people want to ignore the fact that Young has failed to finish two of the three games he's started be my guest. But I'm not willing to do that because to do that in my opinion opens myself to unrealistic expectations should he get the starting job.
Not sure where you're looking at, but NFL.com lists Portis at 5-11/223 and I have issues thinking Chubby-face Addai is actually his svelte listed weight of 5-11/214, and various online sources list TD as 5-11/210. The big difference here for me is that Young just doesn't look meaty.Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll said:moleculo said:
moleculo
Footballguy
pro-football-reference.com.Not sure where you're looking at, but NFL.com lists Portis at 5-11/223 and I have issues thinking Chubby-face Addai is actually his svelte listed weight of 5-11/214, and various online sources list TD as 5-11/210. The big difference here for me is that Young just doesn't look meaty.Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll said:moleculo said:
packersfan
Footballguy
It's important to see the forest through the trees. My choice of words to describe Young's size is irrelevant and clearly isn't the issue. What is the issue is his inability to finish games he's started. I'm fine with stipulating that Young is bigger than RBX, RBY or RBZ. That doesn't change the primary point I'm making.
Warehouse Nasty
Footballguy
Ok but you're making a completely different point than the one I addressed above. Your original point was "I think Young starts and if he doesn't look good - and I agree he was very average last night before getting hurt - we see Hall get a chance" and now you are talking about injury.If you want to talk about Young getting replaced for injury concerns then that's certainly a valid conversation considering he appeared to be banged up pretty decent last night. But the point you originally made was based on his performance and, contrary to your original suggestion, he's not in danger of losing the job (assuming Henry is out of course) based on his or Hall's performance.
packersfan
Footballguy
Because his durability is the primary point I've been making all along.
My original point was that he reminds me of Tatum Bell because he (as we sit here today) does not appear to be durable enough to withstand the rigors of being a starting RB in this league. I stand by that point. As far as his performance I see no reason to dismiss the possibility of him losing carries should he fail to perform well. Shouldn't that be viewed as rather obvious? The Broncos are in the thick of a division race; I'd be shocked if they risked a playoff spot just to keep an undrafted rookie in the starting lineup who wasn't performing without at least seeing if his backup might be able to do better.Now, discussion of how Young will or won't perform is speculation. So far, he's looked very good in two of his starts and no better than average in his third. So overall, his production has been good. However, his durability is clearly an issue and remains the primary issue I've been discussing.
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moleculo
Footballguy
I agree that durability is an issue, based on what he has done thus far. I disagree that durability was the reason TBell got the hook last year, and I disagree that the RB situation in Denver for the remainder of 2007 bears any resemblance to 2006.I think that SYoung lacks TBells pure explosion, but he is a much better fit for what Shanahan wants to do. He has better vision, is more capable of hitting the cutback, is a better blocker, has better hands, and is a better short yardage back. I don't know much about Hall, but he sure brought some explosion to the game last night. If you want to draw an analogy, SYoung:MAnderson and AHall:TBell, circa 2005, although I don't think that fits very well either.
Warehouse Nasty
Footballguy
I bet money that Shanahan thinks he looked better than Hall in this game despite what is being said on a fantasy football message board. The reason why some rookie RB's don't get as much playing time as people think they should is often because they haven't learned to properly block. It's the same reason college freshmen RB don't always play right away despite often being more talented than the incumbent. If you can't pick up a blitz as a RB, you aren't going to start in the NFL.So, I guess you're making multiple points in this thread but I'm still only addressing your contention that Young is in danger of losing time because of his performance because I don't believe that to be true.
packersfan
Footballguy
Yes I'm trying to discuss Young's value going forward by looking at as many possible points as I can. That seems to me the best way to get a strong gauge on what he could do. And again, I'm not saying Young is in danger of losing time; I'm saying he could be in danger of losing time if his production warrants it. But the primary concern here should be his durability and again I'll say I'm mystified that it's being glossed over like it has been.
Maybe I'm the only Young owner and/or Bronco fan who's worried that he can't seem to finish games. If so, I'll stand alone. But as a Young owner I'm very concerned about that because it has the potential (in my opinion) to significantly lower his potential should he inherit the starting job.
Maybe I'm the only Young owner and/or Bronco fan who's worried that he can't seem to finish games. If so, I'll stand alone. But as a Young owner I'm very concerned about that because it has the potential (in my opinion) to significantly lower his potential should he inherit the starting job.
Warehouse Nasty
Footballguy
Well, I don't know if anyone is necessarily disagreeing with you, maybe they just weren't quite sure what you were trying to say as you're kind of jumping all over the place. That said, obviously, if Young gets hurt it will lower his potential. If you're too hurt to play in the game you aren't going to put up any stats. But at this point, what can you do about it other than get his backup as insurance if possible? I think we could start a thread on every player in the league speculating that their production will go down if they get hurt and we'd probably be 100% accurate...
packersfan
Footballguy
I'm hardly jumping all over the place. I've been quite clear about my primary point (Young's durability issues) all along. That's the central issue here in my opinion and I have been extremely consistent with my comments about it.
But not every player currently has been unable to finish 67% of their NFL starts. So the discussion would only be relevant to those who had that disturbing trend or ones who had proven throughout their careers to have serious durability issues.
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Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
All well and good in an attempt to cover up the fact that your initial comments about Young's size were wrong.
packersfan
Footballguy
Which I acknowledged in a subsequent post. As is so often the case, the facts elude you. This is what happens when you are in a hurry to be "clever" instead of actually reading what's being said. Had you done that, you'd realize I'm not attempting to "cover up" anything. I'm merely emphasizing the primary point I've been making all along.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
I just thought it was funny is all, the shifting of "primary" points. Anyway, carry on...
packersfan
Footballguy
What I find funny is how you choose to ignore the facts repeatedly in your desperate attempts to be clever. The primary point has always been about Young's durability. I stated that concern after the Packers-Broncos game when he looked very good and I stated it again last night when he didn't look as good. The primary point has never changed. I was wrong about his physical size. Big deal. That doesn't change the fact that he has missed 2/3 of his starts thus far. And that fact has always been the central point I've been making.
And yes, hopefully we can carry on with those who are truly interested in enhancing this discussion, not steering it wildly off track as you are so prone to do.
And yes, hopefully we can carry on with those who are truly interested in enhancing this discussion, not steering it wildly off track as you are so prone to do.
az_prof
Footballguy
Some people in this thread seem to be operating under the view that Young is an established starter. He isn't exactly a "starter." He has been backing up Henry all year. It isn't as if LJ got hurt, came out, and some third stringer came in and ripped a big play. Young is a guy who has not been a featured RB and has no more of a pedigree so to speak than Hall does. Hall might have been the RB2 if he hadn't gotten dinged up in preseason and in fact he was in front of Young prior to his injury on the depth chart. Now Young gets dinged up, Hall has a good showing when he gets a chance, and why wouldn't a coach like Shanny (who is fickle as can be) rethink his RB?
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
One thing I want to rehash 50 times is Young's durability issues, which are primarily due to his size.
Discuss.
Discuss.
Warehouse Nasty
Footballguy
If Young gets hurt and can't play, I'm worried that his productivity will go down. What do you think?
packersfan
Footballguy
I think these are some good points. That said, I do believe Young is a more talented RB than Hall. He looks to be a better receiver and handles pass protection better. So I think his natural skills are stronger. However, I don't think his margin for error is all that strong. If he can't stay healthy and/or he struggles to perform, the door will be opened for Hall. It would not be unrealistic to speculate that the door may have been opened last night.I don't think there's any question Shanahan wants one guy to be his featured RB. He doesn't want a RBBC situation and thus far, he has shown zero inclination toward a timeshare with his RBs. The starter has been the featured RB in every game unless he was hurt. That's been consistent when the starter was Henry and when it was Young. The central questions with regard to Young are: If he gets the starting job can he hold up physically and perform well enough to keep it?
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
If Young gets hurt and misses work, it won't hurt to miss work.Thoughts?
moleculo
Footballguy
just to nit-pick, but technically he didn't miss the starts, he missed the ends.
packersfan
Footballguy
Correct. Sorry about that. I made that point earlier and in my haste to respond to the troll I wasn't clear in the post above. He has failed to finish 2/3 of his starts. And yes, I realize he was in at the end of last night's game but he didn't get any carries after leaving for the second time. So in my opinion that's not finishing. In any event, he's had to leave two of his three starts late in each game.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
again. 
Texican
Footballguy
[hijack]I believe the proper phrase is "can't see the forest for the trees"Carry on[end hijack]
inc0herent
Footballguy
Hall's 1st play in the game after Young got hurt led to the Titans only sack of the night. It looked like Hall missed the blitz pickup. I'd say there is a pretty good reason Young had the backup job locked up. He is probably a more complete player than Hall. That said, I liked how explosive Hall looked last night. I think this means that even if Young were to miss time, Hall is not likely to take over the featured roll because he is a liability in pass protection. 3rd and 4 in the 4th after the injury, and Young comes in and converts a 1st down. I think that says a lot about this situation. Clear as mud, but the outcome is discernible if you look close enough.
If Henry comes back, then who knows. Throw Shanahan in the mix, and this is probably all a waste of typing...
If Henry comes back, then who knows. Throw Shanahan in the mix, and this is probably all a waste of typing...
hardtellin
Footballguy
I think that with all this talk about Andre Hall...bringing more indepth info about this runner should benefit us all more than back and forth nit pickin'. So, to this end I bring you draft notes from his entry into the pros ~~
Andre Hall is a compact and powerful runner with a low center of gravity. He has a quick initial burst and has shown good vision on cutback runs. He has good lateral quickness and can pick the right hole and get to it before the defense closes it. He is a patient runner, and allows his blocks to set up fully before him. He knows how to set up defenders well in the 2nd level and this ability makes him very dangerous on a screen pass. He runs with a good pad level and is not frequently tackled on the initial hit. He is a determined runner with decent leg drive for a smaller back. He has natural hands and catches the ball consistently with his arms extended.
Andre isn't a big RB, but he can gain a lot of yardage in a hurry. One can’t deny his productivity at the collegiate level. And even though he doesn't have long speed, he can bang out 30 yard runs consistently. He virtually has no injury history, only missing 1 ½ games in high school! That is incredibly durable for a back with less than ideal size. He is a very determined player and could provide good value for a team on the 2nd day of the draft.
Whether Shanny uses him much this season or not, I would think with more experience picking up the blitz, he might be of value in a dynasty league.
Andre Hall is a compact and powerful runner with a low center of gravity. He has a quick initial burst and has shown good vision on cutback runs. He has good lateral quickness and can pick the right hole and get to it before the defense closes it. He is a patient runner, and allows his blocks to set up fully before him. He knows how to set up defenders well in the 2nd level and this ability makes him very dangerous on a screen pass. He runs with a good pad level and is not frequently tackled on the initial hit. He is a determined runner with decent leg drive for a smaller back. He has natural hands and catches the ball consistently with his arms extended.
Andre isn't a big RB, but he can gain a lot of yardage in a hurry. One can’t deny his productivity at the collegiate level. And even though he doesn't have long speed, he can bang out 30 yard runs consistently. He virtually has no injury history, only missing 1 ½ games in high school! That is incredibly durable for a back with less than ideal size. He is a very determined player and could provide good value for a team on the 2nd day of the draft.
Whether Shanny uses him much this season or not, I would think with more experience picking up the blitz, he might be of value in a dynasty league.
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
Selvin Young has never completed a full season of football at any level.
Den is giving him a chance and in my opinion if he gets nicked up again they will come to the conclusion that he will be a real good 3rd down change of pace back but extended use causes him to breakdown.
If Den comes to that conclusion then Hall is the logical answer.
Den is giving him a chance and in my opinion if he gets nicked up again they will come to the conclusion that he will be a real good 3rd down change of pace back but extended use causes him to breakdown.
If Den comes to that conclusion then Hall is the logical answer.
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AussieOyOyOy
Footballguy
Here is the sequence of events.
Young limps off.
Hall comes in and takes part in a nondescript play (on his part -- actually a long TD pass to Marshall).
Young comes back in on the next possession. He carries the ball again and limps off once again.
Hall comes back in. He blows his blocking assignment and Denver punts.
Hall starts the next series. He takes it to the house.
Hall carries the ball on 1st and 2nd down of the next offensive possession. Young comes in on 3rd-and-4 and catches a swing pass which results in a 1st down. Hall returns to carry the ball on 2nd and 3rd down after Denver attempts a mind-bogglingly stupid pass on 1st down.
Young limps off.
Hall comes in and takes part in a nondescript play (on his part -- actually a long TD pass to Marshall).
Young comes back in on the next possession. He carries the ball again and limps off once again.
Hall comes back in. He blows his blocking assignment and Denver punts.
Hall starts the next series. He takes it to the house.
Hall carries the ball on 1st and 2nd down of the next offensive possession. Young comes in on 3rd-and-4 and catches a swing pass which results in a 1st down. Hall returns to carry the ball on 2nd and 3rd down after Denver attempts a mind-bogglingly stupid pass on 1st down.
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