The NBA players PANTHEON (1 Viewer)

[JMon348]

Just completed Simmons fantastic 700 page book that increased my knowledge of the game ten fold. He changed my opinion of some players and put things in a historic perspective. A must read for any basketball fan.

In the book he redoes the HOF and puts it in levels with the top level being called the Pantheon consisting of his top 13 players of alltime. They are:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Magic Johnson

5. Larry Bird

6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Tim Duncan

8. Kobe Bryant

9. Jerry West

10. Oscar Robertson

11. Hakeem Olajuwon

12. Shaquille ONeal

13. Moses Malone

In the book he has Kobe at 15 but bumps him up to 8 in the Epilogue written after the Lakers 09 championship. Id like everyone to share their own personal Pantheon.

The season is young but we need more basketball threads!

 

[Eephus]

The pantheon of BWGs

George Mikan (the prototype)

Henry Finkel

Billy Paultz

Dwayne Schintzius

Randy Breuer

Robert Swift

Kim Hughes

Dale Schleuter

Paul Mokeski

Skita Tskitishvili

Neil Walk

Greg Kite

Uwe Blab

Mike Smrek

George Zidek (the last alphabetically)

 

[TommyGilmore]

Jerry West seems like the weak link there. And how is Elgin Baylor not on that list?

 

[Sweet J]

This is worse than the thinly disguised who do I start threads. You should probably just go ahead and re-title the thread "This is totally NOT about Kobe Bryant, I swear on my suspiciously-stained No. 8 replica jersey."

 

[Buffaloes]

I don't get the Vikings/Lakers connection. Is it the yellow on purple that does it?

ETA: I guess the obvious answer is the Minnesota connection.

 

[Jewell]

Jerry West seems like the weak link there. And how is Elgin Baylor not on that list?

There was nothing weak about West's game. He was a phenomenal scorer, he was adept at playing either guard position, and he had quite a few appearances on the league's First Team Defense. West took his team to numerous Championship Series during his career and despite losing most of those to the superior Celtics, West always put up tremendous numbers. There's a reason why the guy is known as Mr. Clutch and is the NBA logo.EDIT: And what do all thirteen players on that Pantheon list have in common that Elgin Baylor does not?

 

[the moops]

This is worse than the thinly disguised who do I start threads. You should probably just go ahead and re-title the thread "This is totally NOT about Kobe Bryant, I swear on my suspiciously-stained No. 8 replica jersey."

 

[wadegarrett]

This is worse than the thinly disguised who do I start threads. You should probably just go ahead and re-title the thread "This is totally NOT about Kobe Bryant, I swear on my suspiciously-stained No. 8 replica jersey."

 

[Balance]

This is worse than the thinly disguised who do I start threads. You should probably just go ahead and re-title the thread "This is totally NOT about Kobe Bryant, I swear on my suspiciously-stained No. 8 replica jersey."

 

[JMon348]

This is worse than the thinly disguised who do I start threads. You should probably just go ahead and re-title the thread "This is totally NOT about Kobe Bryant, I swear on my suspiciously-stained No. 8 replica jersey."

At least get it right, the one you are talking about is a number 24 jersey.

 

[Ed Wood]

In the book he redoes the HOF and puts it in levels with the top level being called the Pantheon consisting of his top 13 players of alltime. They are:1. Michael Jordan2. Bill Russell3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar4. Magic Johnson5. Larry Bird6. Wilt Chamberlain

For all his Magic bashing over the years (much of it well deserved, I'm afraid), I've got to give Simmons props for putting him above Bird in this list. Shocked to see that. Personally, I'd put Wilt at No. 2 and bump everybody down one. Obviously if you're talking championships, Russell should be ahead of Chamberlain but Chamberlain was just basically unstoppable. He is the only player in NBA history to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season. Averaged 30 points and 22 rebounds a game in his career. Also:• Most games with 50+ points, 118; • Most consecutive games with 40+ points, 14; • Most consecutive games with 30+ points: 65; • Most consecutive games with 20+ points: 126; • Highest rookie scoring average: 37.6 ppg; And he led the league in assists once. Firmly believe—as the old argument goes—if you give Chamberlain the teammates Russell had, Wilt would have the 10+ rings.

 

[timschochet]

I don't know if it's fair to compare big men and guards.

But in terms of big men:

Wilt >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else, including Russell. Not that I'm surprised, though, that Simmons would see it the other way around. All Celtic fans do, but they're the only ones. I'm betting Simmons wrote that entire book just so that he could slam Wilt.

 

[timschochet]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:

1. Wilt

2. Kareem

3. Shaq

4. Russell

5. Duncan

Akeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

 

[JMon348]

He has a whole chapter about the whole Russell vs Wilt debate and it won me over and changed my opinion. Basically it proved one thing for certain, Wilt only cared about stats and didnt put team first, and Russell did the exact opposite while still getting crazy stats himself.

 

[timschochet]

He has a whole chapter about th whole Russell vs Wilt debate and it won me over and changed my opinion. Basically it was proved one thing for certain, Wilt only cared about stats and didnt put team first, and Russell did the exact opposite while still getting crazy stats himself.

This is the one guy I don't really care if he didn't put team first. With Wilt I don't even know what that means. Dude played 48 minutes a game. One season he averaged MORE than 48 minutes a game. Another season he led the league in assists. Never fouled out of a game. If we're drafting teams right now, you take Russell. I'll take Wilt, and be happy with it.

 

[JMon348]

My Pantheon:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Magic Johnson

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Larry Bird

5. Bill Russell

6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Kobe Bryant

8. Tim Duncan

9. Shaquille ONeal

10. Hakeem Olajuwon

11. Jerry West

12. Oscar Robertson

 

[JMon348]

He has a whole chapter about th whole Russell vs Wilt debate and it won me over and changed my opinion. Basically it was proved one thing for certain, Wilt only cared about stats and didnt put team first, and Russell did the exact opposite while still getting crazy stats himself.

This is the one guy I don't really care if he didn't put team first. With Wilt I don't even know what that means. Dude played 48 minutes a game. One season he averaged MORE than 48 minutes a game. Another season he led the league in assists. Never fouled out of a game. If we're drafting teams right now, you take Russell. I'll take Wilt, and be happy with it.

The no foul out thing works against him. There are many stories out there that Wilt would start allowing layups and would play zero defense if he got in quick foul trouble just to keep that streak alive. Also while the assist thing is really impressive, there are stories that he would pass up wide open layups and not play offense up to his potential just to get his assist numbers up. He was all about himself and his stats. You cant deny that he's one of the greatest because even though he was selfish the numbers are still staggering, but after reading the book and researching stuff of my own he came down a few notches.

 

[pollardsvision]

In the book he redoes the HOF and puts it in levels with the top level being called the Pantheon consisting of his top 13 players of alltime. They are:1. Michael Jordan2. Bill Russell3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar4. Magic Johnson5. Larry Bird6. Wilt Chamberlain

For all his Magic bashing over the years (much of it well deserved, I'm afraid), I've got to give Simmons props for putting him above Bird in this list. Shocked to see that. Personally, I'd put Wilt at No. 2 and bump everybody down one. Obviously if you're talking championships, Russell should be ahead of Chamberlain but Chamberlain was just basically unstoppable. He is the only player in NBA history to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season. Averaged 30 points and 22 rebounds a game in his career. Also:• Most games with 50+ points, 118; • Most consecutive games with 40+ points, 14; • Most consecutive games with 30+ points: 65; • Most consecutive games with 20+ points: 126; • Highest rookie scoring average: 37.6 ppg; And he led the league in assists once. Firmly believe—as the old argument goes—if you give Chamberlain the teammates Russell had, Wilt would have the 10+ rings.

Simmons has an entire chapter of the book devoted to this very subject (Wilt vs. Russel). He's obviously a homer, but he makes a rather thorough and compelling case.Obviously, these are just subjective opinions, but it was an interesting read.

 

[pollardsvision]

Just completed Simmons fantastic 700 page book that increased my knowledge of the game ten fold. He changed my opinion of some players and put things in a historic perspective. A must read for any basketball fan.In the book he redoes the HOF and puts it in levels with the top level being called the Pantheon consisting of his top 13 players of alltime. They are:1. Michael Jordan2. Bill Russell3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar4. Magic Johnson5. Larry Bird6. Wilt Chamberlain7. Tim Duncan 8. Kobe Bryant9. Jerry West10. Oscar Robertson11. Hakeem Olajuwon12. Shaquille ONeal13. Moses MaloneIn the book he has Kobe at 15 but bumps him up to 8 in the Epilogue written after the Lakers 09 championship. Id like everyone to share their own personal Pantheon.The season is young but we need more basketball threads!

Using that as a base, I'd move Duncan up to 6, over Wilt and move Hakeem up to 8, dropping Kobe to 9.Crazy as it may sound, part of me really wants to Scottie Pippen up at number 13, removing Moses.

 

[RebelINS]

Wilt had great team-mates as well, that's a tired debate. Russell won more head to head, I'll always take winning over stats. I've never understood that argument. Plus Wilt was traded multiple times, he obviously wasn't leaving the best impression everywhere he played.

 

[JMon348]

Wilt had great team-mates as well, that's a tired debate. Russell won more head to head, I'll always take winning over stats. I've never understood that argument. Plus Wilt was traded multiple times, he obviously wasn't leaving the best impression everywhere he played.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Wow, I can't believe there's no mention of Dr. J anywhere in this thread. That guy was THE FACE of pro basketball in the late '70s and early '80s. Is he being penalized for the 6 seasons he spent in the ABA?

Without Dr. J, there is no ABA-NBA merger, and the NBA probably becomes a minor league in the early '80s after all the drug scandals. Erving is as important to the NBA as any one of those 13 "pantheon" guys.

There are probably only 5 guys in NBA history who were legendary enough to get a retirement tour, and Dr. J was one of them.

 

[Major]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:1. Wilt2. Kareem3. Shaq4. Russell5. DuncanAkeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

Olajuwon should be in the Top 5. He pwned every big man in the league when he played.

 

[Happy Ragnarok]

Wilt had great team-mates as well, that's a tired debate. Russell won more head to head, I'll always take winning over stats. I've never understood that argument. Plus Wilt was traded multiple times, he obviously wasn't leaving the best impression everywhere he played.

Pick up basketball game for your family's life. You choose first. Barkely, Nash, Stockton, Dominique, Ewing, or Wennington?

 

[timschochet]

Wilt had great team-mates as well, that's a tired debate. Russell won more head to head, I'll always take winning over stats. I've never understood that argument. Plus Wilt was traded multiple times, he obviously wasn't leaving the best impression everywhere he played.

When Wilt had better teammates than Russell, he won championships. With one exception (1969).Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

 

[pollardsvision]

Wilt had great team-mates as well, that's a tired debate. Russell won more head to head, I'll always take winning over stats. I've never understood that argument. Plus Wilt was traded multiple times, he obviously wasn't leaving the best impression everywhere he played.

Pick up basketball game for your family's life. You choose first. Barkely, Nash, Stockton, Dominique, Ewing, or Wennington?

I honestly don't see what you are getting at, but I have a feeling it doesn't matter much. The ability to win you a single game really doesn't correlate too much with long-term greatness. If you extrapolate Bill Walton's peak, he might be the greatest player ever. Obviously, he gets docked for the lack of sustained greatness. For a single game though, you really can't top Walton in his very short prime.To answer the question though (that admittedly wasn't posed for me), if it's a pick-up game, I'm taking 'Nique. A pick-up game implies no practice, so Nash and Stockton's play-making might go to waste. Thought about Ewing or Barkley, but I'll take Dominique. I want someone going to the rack and I want a pure scorer, as we don't really have an offensive scheme to lean on.(Which goes back to my original point, all those players besides Wennington, might be "greater" than 'Nique)

 

[Jewell]

Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

That statement may be true in other sports, but the NBA is a different animal. With only ten players on the court one player can take over, and in the NBA the best player almost always does.Look at that Pantheon list in the OP. What do you notice? Every single player on that list won a Championship. I'm not suggesting that they're the best players because they won a Championship. I'm suggesting that they won a Championship because they're the best players.

Start in the early 80s and track the Championships and the best player in the NBA...

Early 80s Best Player, Moses Malone -- Took two teams to the NBA Finals, won one

Rest of 80s Best Player, Magic Johnson & Larry Bird -- Alternated Championships

90s Best Player, Michael Jordan -- Won the Championship every year he played a full season

90s Best Player when Michael took his hiatus, Hakeem Olajuwon -- Wone back-to-back titles

Early 00s Best Player, Shaq -- Won three in a row

Mid 00s Best Player, Tim Duncan -- Won several Championships

Late 00s Best Player, Kobe & LeBron -- Appearing in and/or winning Championships

For nearly thirty years now the best player has been taking home the trophy at the end of the season. The exceptions were teams with great overall talent that really bought into a team scheme -- late 80s Pistons, '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics.

 

[SKribbles]

He has a whole chapter about th whole Russell vs Wilt debate and it won me over and changed my opinion. Basically it was proved one thing for certain, Wilt only cared about stats and didnt put team first, and Russell did the exact opposite while still getting crazy stats himself.

This is the one guy I don't really care if he didn't put team first. With Wilt I don't even know what that means. Dude played 48 minutes a game. One season he averaged MORE than 48 minutes a game. Another season he led the league in assists. Never fouled out of a game. If we're drafting teams right now, you take Russell. I'll take Wilt, and be happy with it.

You need to read the book. As others have said, Simmons makes one hell of an argument for Russell. Not having seen either play live and very few highlights, I'll buy what Simmons is selling. Wilt had gaudy numbers but even time he ran into Russell, those numbers dropped dramatically. The never fouled out thing is ridiculous and not something that should be consider a good stat... which Wilt was all about. And even before reading, Russell's 11 titles >>> Wilt's 2.

 

[Saints-Man]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:1. Wilt2. Kareem3. Shaq4. Russell5. DuncanAkeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

I am a big Celtics fan, and I understand the Wilt over Russell thought process. But Kareem? Shaq? I think Shaq is the most overrated player on these lists. His personality eclipses his actual basketball talent. He is more of a celebrity than an all-time great basketball player. He is HOF worthy, but I am not sure he makes the top-5 centers. I think Akeem was better and Moses Malone was certainly better.

 

[trader jake]

Did Simmons list reasons for NOT including Dr. J in this super elite upper tier?

 

[Saints-Man]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:1. Wilt2. Kareem3. Shaq4. Russell5. DuncanAkeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

Olajuwon should be in the Top 5. He pwned every big man in the league when he played.

Olajuwon completely owned Shaq in the 1995 NBA Finals, leading his team to a 4-0 sweep. A freaking sweep.

 

[Celph Titled]

No.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Did Simmons list reasons for NOT including Dr. J in this super elite upper tier?

Some hunches:.....wasn't a team player......one dimensional dunker......shrunk in the playoffs....needed Moses Malone to win a title.....hung around too long and padded his stats.....They're all legitimate criticisms. But I'd still put Dr. J in the top-13.

 

[Tough As Nails]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:

1. Wilt

2. Kareem

3. Shaq

4. Russell

5. Duncan

Akeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

I am a big Celtics fan, and I understand the Wilt over Russell thought process. But Kareem? Shaq? I think Shaq is the most overrated player on these lists. His personality eclipses his actual basketball talent. He is more of a celebrity than an all-time great basketball player. He is HOF worthy, but I am not sure he makes the top-5 centers. I think Akeem was better and Moses Malone was certainly better.

X13 consecutive years with at least 22 points, 10.5 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks per game. With peaks at 30 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 blocks per. Sick, sick, sick numbers. And 4 titles...and 6 Finals Appearances. And 3 Finals MVP's. Don't let the Shaq of the last 5 years cloud your judgment. Young Shaq was one of the top 5 centers of all-time.

Hakeem had a similar statistical run (12 years, less points, equal rebounds, more blocks)...but definitely falls short of Shaq's playoff successes.

Moses falls short of both in longevity, stats, and playoff success. He was dominant, but you stack up his best against either of the other two and you come up short. And you come up short in the longevity department...and the winning department. No knock on Moses...he just isn't Shaq/Hakeem.

Make your case for Hakeem or Moses. You'll have to rely on anecdotal evidence though...because the stats give Shaq a clear edge.

 

[timschochet]

Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

That statement may be true in other sports, but the NBA is a different animal. With only ten players on the court one player can take over, and in the NBA the best player almost always does.Look at that Pantheon list in the OP. What do you notice? Every single player on that list won a Championship. I'm not suggesting that they're the best players because they won a Championship. I'm suggesting that they won a Championship because they're the best players.

Start in the early 80s and track the Championships and the best player in the NBA...

Early 80s Best Player, Moses Malone -- Took two teams to the NBA Finals, won one

Rest of 80s Best Player, Magic Johnson & Larry Bird -- Alternated Championships

90s Best Player, Michael Jordan -- Won the Championship every year he played a full season

90s Best Player when Michael took his hiatus, Hakeem Olajuwon -- Wone back-to-back titles

Early 00s Best Player, Shaq -- Won three in a row

Mid 00s Best Player, Tim Duncan -- Won several Championships

Late 00s Best Player, Kobe & LeBron -- Appearing in and/or winning Championships

For nearly thirty years now the best player has been taking home the trophy at the end of the season. The exceptions were teams with great overall talent that really bought into a team scheme -- late 80s Pistons, '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics.

What about Karl Malone, John Stockton, Elgin Baylor, Steve Nash? I consider all four among the greatest ever.ETA Not to mention Lebron. At this point, who knows if he will ever win a championship? If he doesn't, but continues to perform in a similar manner for the next 10 years, are you really going to say that he is not deserving of all time regard?

 

[Jewell]

I'd think I'd take Kareem over Russell too. And Shaq. My list of bigs would look like this:

1. Wilt

2. Kareem

3. Shaq

4. Russell

5. Duncan

Akeem and both Malones in the top ten somewhere. The guy I don't know how to rank is Mikan. On the one hand, all of these guys would run rings around him. On the other hand, if you measure him solely against his peers, he's one of the most dominant athletes ever.

I am a big Celtics fan, and I understand the Wilt over Russell thought process. But Kareem? Shaq? I think Shaq is the most overrated player on these lists. His personality eclipses his actual basketball talent. He is more of a celebrity than an all-time great basketball player. He is HOF worthy, but I am not sure he makes the top-5 centers. I think Akeem was better and Moses Malone was certainly better.

X13 consecutive years with at least 22 points, 10.5 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks per game. With peaks at 30 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 blocks per. Sick, sick, sick numbers. And 4 titles...and 6 Finals Appearances. And 3 Finals MVP's. Don't let the Shaq of the last 5 years cloud your judgment. Young Shaq was one of the top 5 centers of all-time.

Hakeem had a similar statistical run (12 years, less points, equal rebounds, more blocks)...but definitely falls short of Shaq's playoff successes.

Moses falls short of both in longevity, stats, and playoff success. He was dominant, but you stack up his best against either of the other two and you come up short. And you come up short in the longevity department...and the winning department. No knock on Moses...he just isn't Shaq/Hakeem.

Make your case for Hakeem or Moses. You'll have to rely on anecdotal evidence though...because the stats give Shaq a clear edge.

All-time best NBA centers...4. Shaq

5. Hakeem

6. Moses

And Hakeem is far-and-away my favorite player on that list.

This may sound ridiculous, but I firmly believe that had Arydas Sabonis come to the Blazers when drafted in '86 he may have come in as high as #7 on that list.

 

[Eephus]

Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

That statement may be true in other sports, but the NBA is a different animal. With only ten players on the court one player can take over, and in the NBA the best player almost always does.Look at that Pantheon list in the OP. What do you notice? Every single player on that list won a Championship. I'm not suggesting that they're the best players because they won a Championship. I'm suggesting that they won a Championship because they're the best players.

Start in the early 80s and track the Championships and the best player in the NBA...

Early 80s Best Player, Moses Malone -- Took two teams to the NBA Finals, won one

Rest of 80s Best Player, Magic Johnson & Larry Bird -- Alternated Championships

90s Best Player, Michael Jordan -- Won the Championship every year he played a full season

90s Best Player when Michael took his hiatus, Hakeem Olajuwon -- Wone back-to-back titles

Early 00s Best Player, Shaq -- Won three in a row

Mid 00s Best Player, Tim Duncan -- Won several Championships

Late 00s Best Player, Kobe & LeBron -- Appearing in and/or winning Championships

For nearly thirty years now the best player has been taking home the trophy at the end of the season. The exceptions were teams with great overall talent that really bought into a team scheme -- late 80s Pistons, '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics.

What about Karl Malone, John Stockton, Elgin Baylor, Steve Nash? I consider all four among the greatest ever.ETA Not to mention Lebron. At this point, who knows if he will ever win a championship? If he doesn't, but continues to perform in a similar manner for the next 10 years, are you really going to say that he is not deserving of all time regard?

Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

 

[Sammy3469]

Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

That statement may be true in other sports, but the NBA is a different animal. With only ten players on the court one player can take over, and in the NBA the best player almost always does.Look at that Pantheon list in the OP. What do you notice? Every single player on that list won a Championship. I'm not suggesting that they're the best players because they won a Championship. I'm suggesting that they won a Championship because they're the best players.

Start in the early 80s and track the Championships and the best player in the NBA...

Early 80s Best Player, Moses Malone -- Took two teams to the NBA Finals, won one

Rest of 80s Best Player, Magic Johnson & Larry Bird -- Alternated Championships

90s Best Player, Michael Jordan -- Won the Championship every year he played a full season

90s Best Player when Michael took his hiatus, Hakeem Olajuwon -- Wone back-to-back titles

Early 00s Best Player, Shaq -- Won three in a row

Mid 00s Best Player, Tim Duncan -- Won several Championships

Late 00s Best Player, Kobe & LeBron -- Appearing in and/or winning Championships

For nearly thirty years now the best player has been taking home the trophy at the end of the season. The exceptions were teams with great overall talent that really bought into a team scheme -- late 80s Pistons, '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics.

What about Karl Malone, John Stockton, Elgin Baylor, Steve Nash? I consider all four among the greatest ever.ETA Not to mention Lebron. At this point, who knows if he will ever win a championship? If he doesn't, but continues to perform in a similar manner for the next 10 years, are you really going to say that he is not deserving of all time regard?

Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

Old man, there's this thing you're on called the Internet. Prices are much cheaper on it.

 

[timschochet]

Should Robert Horry be considered one of the greatest forwards of all time?

 

[Jewell]

Head to head is the most meaningless argument in team sports when it comes to comparing individuals.

That statement may be true in other sports, but the NBA is a different animal. With only ten players on the court one player can take over, and in the NBA the best player almost always does.Look at that Pantheon list in the OP. What do you notice? Every single player on that list won a Championship. I'm not suggesting that they're the best players because they won a Championship. I'm suggesting that they won a Championship because they're the best players.

Start in the early 80s and track the Championships and the best player in the NBA...

Early 80s Best Player, Moses Malone -- Took two teams to the NBA Finals, won one

Rest of 80s Best Player, Magic Johnson & Larry Bird -- Alternated Championships

90s Best Player, Michael Jordan -- Won the Championship every year he played a full season

90s Best Player when Michael took his hiatus, Hakeem Olajuwon -- Wone back-to-back titles

Early 00s Best Player, Shaq -- Won three in a row

Mid 00s Best Player, Tim Duncan -- Won several Championships

Late 00s Best Player, Kobe & LeBron -- Appearing in and/or winning Championships

For nearly thirty years now the best player has been taking home the trophy at the end of the season. The exceptions were teams with great overall talent that really bought into a team scheme -- late 80s Pistons, '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics.

What about Karl Malone, John Stockton, Elgin Baylor, Steve Nash? I consider all four among the greatest ever.ETA Not to mention Lebron. At this point, who knows if he will ever win a championship? If he doesn't, but continues to perform in a similar manner for the next 10 years, are you really going to say that he is not deserving of all time regard?

LeBron will win a Championship. I have no doubt about that.The Mailman is an all-time great and one of my faves, but we're talking about the PANTHEON. Let's be honest -- Karl cracked under pressure.

Baylor was also a great who never won a Championship. Seems odd that his team started a streak of the most consecutive wins immediatlely after Baylor retired mid-season. The team then went on to win the Championship without Baylor that season.

I love Stockton and Nash, but there's only so much you can do when you're only six foot tall and white.

 

[Eephus]

Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

Old man, there's this thing you're on called the Internet. Prices are much cheaper on it.

...but I don't have one of those Kindling thingamabobs

 

[Eephus]

Should Robert Horry be considered one of the greatest forwards of all time?

Not really, but don't tell that to Simmons

 

[Tough As Nails]

Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

Old man, there's this thing you're on called the Internet. Prices are much cheaper on it.

...but I don't have one of those Kindling thingamabobs

That book is $12.50 on Amazon.com right now.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Moses falls short of both in longevity, stats, and playoff success. He was dominant, but you stack up his best against either of the other two and you come up short. And you come up short in the longevity department...and the winning department. No knock on Moses...he just isn't Shaq/Hakeem.

Moses' best season: 31.1 points, 14.7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 1.5 blocks, 3.6 turnoversShaq's best season: 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, 2.8 turnoversHakeem's best season: 26.1 points, 13 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 4.2 blocks, 3.2 turnoversWinning? Moses is 9th all time in Win Shares (179.16). O'Neal is 12th (176.47) and Olajuwon is 15th (162.77).Longevity? Moses is 5th all time in games played. Olajuwon is 23rd. O'Neal is 42nd.

 

[Saints-Man]

....

13 consecutive years with at least 22 points, 10.5 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks per game. With peaks at 30 points, 16 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 blocks per. Sick, sick, sick numbers. And 4 titles...and 6 Finals Appearances. And 3 Finals MVP's. Don't let the Shaq of the last 5 years cloud your judgment. Young Shaq was one of the top 5 centers of all-time.

Hakeem had a similar statistical run (12 years, less points, equal rebounds, more blocks)...but definitely falls short of Shaq's playoff successes.

Moses falls short of both in longevity, stats, and playoff success. He was dominant, but you stack up his best against either of the other two and you come up short. And you come up short in the longevity department...and the winning department. No knock on Moses...he just isn't Shaq/Hakeem.

Make your case for Hakeem or Moses. You'll have to rely on anecdotal evidence though...because the stats give Shaq a clear edge.

I am thinking of the Shaq of 1995 that choked against Hakeem's team. Hakeem outplayed him. Best player vs best player.For the 1995 playoffs, their averages were:

Olajuwon .681%, 33.0 ppg, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists

O'Neal .571%, 25.7 points, 11.9 rebounds, 3.3 assists

O'Neal only outperforms him in rebounds, and Olajuwon clearly outperforms him everywhere else. The FG% and points is especially distinct.

According to NBA.reference.com, your other stats are not correct. He had 10.5 rebounds 12 straight years(1992-2004) and 22 points 11 straight seasons (1992-2003). If your numbers for Hakeem are correct, then Hakeem's numbers are better.

Hakeem has 2 titles and 3 finals appearances. When he was the best player on his team, his team won twice. That's clutch. Shaq was clearly the best player on his team once, in 1995 and was considered to be on the better team. What did he do then? Get swept. SWEPT. On his other championship teams, he was playing with Kobe(who some considered better than Shaq at the time) or Wade(who most people consider better at the time). So, in his 4 titles you are touting, he had by far the superior supporting cast. His appearance when he was "the man", he choked.

While their careers have overlapped, Shaq faced far fewer quality centers than Hakeem did, which partially accounts for the stats discrepancy.

I would have to do more research on Malone on make any kind of argument. That one I may have to concede.

 

[Saints-Man]

Moses falls short of both in longevity, stats, and playoff success. He was dominant, but you stack up his best against either of the other two and you come up short. And you come up short in the longevity department...and the winning department. No knock on Moses...he just isn't Shaq/Hakeem.

Moses' best season: 31.1 points, 14.7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 1.5 blocks, 3.6 turnoversShaq's best season: 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, 2.8 turnoversHakeem's best season: 26.1 points, 13 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 4.2 blocks, 3.2 turnoversWinning? Moses is 9th all time in Win Shares (179.16). O'Neal is 12th (176.47) and Olajuwon is 15th (162.77).Longevity? Moses is 5th all time in games played. Olajuwon is 23rd. O'Neal is 42nd.

Well, then I am not conceding. I am just calling on my associate Tommy Gilmore to present our case.

 

[Saints-Man]

....Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

What does this mean?

 

[Jewell]

Moses' best season: 31.1 points, 14.7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 1.5 blocks, 3.6 turnoversShaq's best season: 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 3.0 blocks, 2.8 turnoversHakeem's best season: 26.1 points, 13 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 4.2 blocks, 3.2 turnovers

Is one of these seasons supposed to be better than the others? I can't decide which one I would want my starting center to have.

 

[pollardsvision]

Did Simmons list reasons for NOT including Dr. J in this super elite upper tier?

Some hunches:.....wasn't a team player......one dimensional dunker......shrunk in the playoffs....needed Moses Malone to win a title.....hung around too long and padded his stats.....They're all legitimate criticisms. But I'd still put Dr. J in the top-13.

He put him at #16.Here are his main knocks against Dr. J (who he's writes glowingly about for most of the book)-Couldn't shoot a 15-footer-Bad defender-Passive offensively-too nice, not a "killer"-more style than substance-dominated a bad league where nobody played defense-never approached his ABA numbers after the merger (highlighting the above point)-lost 5 straight playoff series in his prime where he was outplayed by: Bob Gross ('77), Bob Dandridge ('78), played Larry Kenon ('79) and Jamaal Wilkes ('80) to a draw, and was demolished by Bird ('81)-Never got his ring until after his prime when Moses saved him-Simmons also felt like the bad defense was even softer on Dr. J as there was an unwritten rule, even among players ,that Dr. J was the ABA's meal ticket and needed him to put up gaudy numbers

 

[SKribbles]

....Simmons' list is subjective one based on the central premise of his book. I'll save you $30 by summarizing his thesis: the secret of basketball is that it's not about basketball.

What does this mean?

That chemistry and wanting to win means more than numbers.